"Playing in France makes them better players" = BS

Does anyone else NOT buy into playing in France makes you a better player or is it just me. French clubs are concerned with profit instead of player welfare or development of players, hence why the Top14 has 60% foreign players. Their influence on their rugby governing body is too great. I think Regional academies and Ireland provincial, club and central contracting systems are better at developing players and looking out for their welfare (the Regions still have some way to go, but with more and more younger players making the step up it is obvious the system is a successful one).

There has been talk of Alex Cuthbert moving to Racing Metro and fans have been backing this. I think it's an overeaction tbh. The Blues have been very poor post 6 Nations and the tactics executed are making it difficult for players like Alex. This is mainly due to the Blues being run by amateurs, something that was stated by a Munsterbound player. We may see a lot of changes in their set up next season and I think we need all our best young players to stay put and grow our club game. If the international core of players stay at the Blues and help some of the new signings and academy/premiership boys coming through we may see a successful team again. Any of the young guys in our international team that moves to France should be demoted to the bench or out of the squad now to send a clear message.

As I have stated I don't hold big money moves against players in their 30's or coming to the end of their careers (like Charteris, Bennett and Byrne) because their international days will be numbered and they need to put some money away whilst they are still able!

I'm going to agree and disagree with you here mate.

Firstly for Cuthberts development I think he needs to ride out this slump at the Blues, and stay within touching distance of the Wales set up who clearly want this team to grow and build together.

However with the mess at the Blues, and the crazy money being offered by French clubs if someone offered you a double the wage increase, to your new and improved offer by your current employer would you turn it down in order to show loyalty?!

The Blues offer is poor as I suspect the attraction of int rugby and the financial rewards that come with it is being used by Thomas, but at some point Thomas has to put up or shut up. He'll play the victim, oh we can't compete with French m oney, but he plays it too often, with Phillips, Delve, Powel and the Robinsons!!!

If the Blues want to be succesfull a full revamp from the top down is needed.

I think that some players go to France, and they are good players, but due to tribal view points are not accepted as good players, and then the French say that they are good, so we all start to believe that they are good.

Much like Neil Jenkins was constantly being slated for being nothing but a kicker, yet when he retired he was suddenly missed for this other skilld too. We either need to see/hear someone else say our boys are good, or suffer in their absence to notice they are good. It has nothing to do with where they are playing.

thebluesmancometh wrote:I'm going to agree and disagree with you here mate.

Firstly for Cuthberts development I think he needs to ride out this slump at the Blues, and stay within touching distance of the Wales set up who clearly want this team to grow and build together.

well for the sake of a 20 year old development, I dont think going abroad is a wise move : he is still learning at the Blues rather than being stagnating. Going expat at this sort of age can be dangerous. If he has a coupleof bad games or is injured, nobody will look after him and he will be on his own.

You just need to look at Frans Steyn before the RWC last year to realise that statement isn't very accurate.

biltongbek wrote:You just need to look at Frans Steyn before the RWC last year to realise that statement isn't very accurate.

He was good before the move. 10 just isn't his position.

He came back 10kg's over weight and he was playing 12 for Racing Metro.

Before he went to the world cup, he had to lose 10kg and work on his fitness

biltongbek wrote:He came back 10kg's over weight and he was playing 12 for Racing Metro.

Before he went to the world cup, he had to lose 10kg and work on his fitness

It was unfair on Steyn that De Villiers said he wasn't a good player, from what I seen he was still good. There were complaints that him, Smit and Matfield had suffered dips in form upon returning to SA from France.

No look, I agree with you he is a fantastic player, but his conditioning was very poor.

I have to add if BOD had gone to France at a young age, rather than stay in the Leinster (IRFU player rest programme) I would think he would be retired by now.

With the injuries he's picked up (2005 spear tackle etc etc) do you think a club that has profit before welfare would have given him as long to recover, no he would have been rushed back, played more often and never really get a chance to fully recover.

I think any player moving to France or England will shorten there career by a year or two. You have to way up whats best for you.

More money shorter career bigger risk of injuries affecting you in later life.
Less pay more years playing less risk of injuries affectingyou in later life.

Well I'm glad we agree on the French Vultures. I guess nothing will be done unless the IRB step in. I keep hearing that going to France makes them better players but that's just an insult to the academy/team that player came from to be honest.

Depends on the club that the players go to. Also depends on the player.

Jonny's move to Toulon has revitalised his club career. Others like Andy Goode and Riki Flutey had forgettable stints in France with Brive.

The Top 14 certainly puts more emphasis on the club game than internationals which means the games have more importance.

The Pro 12 serves it's purpose well as warm up for the HC and for developing players for the international game but in terms of intensity and passion it pales in comparison to the Top 14.

The simplistic way I look at it.

Pro 12 is for those who want to prolong their international career and focus on the HC to the detriment of the value of the Pro 12 as a competition.

The AP tries to find the balance between domestic competition,HC and internationals but never can really succeed at all.

The Top 14 has the most emphasis on the domestic league with the HC and internationals being of less importance.

Morgannwg wrote:Well I'm glad we agree on the French Vultures. I guess nothing will be done unless the IRB step in.

can I ask what would the IRB be supposed to do?

whocares wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Well I'm glad we agree on the French Vultures. I guess nothing will be done unless the IRB step in.

can I ask what would the IRB be supposed to do?

Perhaps alter the residency rulings to stop Unions like yours poaching from others?

There was something else that maestegmafia posted an article on. Not sure if I can find it.

beshocked wrote:Depends on the club that the players go to. Also depends on the player.

Jonny's move to Toulon has revitalised his club career. Others like Andy Goode and Riki Flutey had forgettable stints in France with Brive.

Revitalised? I'd say that Jonny got a bit more luck at the latter stage of his career and started picking up a lot less serious injuries.

Have the Italian teams not improved a lot since playing in the Pro12? I say yes. The reason? Playing week in week about against better opposition has improved them. Now, with the fear of relegation and the sheer number of quality players in the French league, you could argue that it's a step up from the Pro 12. Therefore, by my logic going to play in France does have the potential to improve players in the same way as the Pro 12 has improved the Italians: higher standard of competiton, intensity and calibre of players.

It completely depends on the player. Steffon Armitage has been thriving in Toulon.

Morgannwg wrote:

beshocked wrote:Depends on the club that the players go to. Also depends on the player.

Jonny's move to Toulon has revitalised his club career. Others like Andy Goode and Riki Flutey had forgettable stints in France with Brive.

Revitalised? I'd say that Jonny got a bit more luck at the latter stage of his career and started picking up a lot less serious injuries.

You could call it luck. I call it less pressure on Jonny mentally and physically. He is now soaking up the rays in the South of France,at a club on the rise and he is hailed as a deity. The weight of expectation to a certain extent is lifted.

He has less of the spotlight on him at Toulon now because he is surrounded by many high profile players. His pack being more stellar than that of Newcastle's is better placed to protect it's fly half and not allow it to be a one man show.

to add to beshocked...it is even more obvious when you compare his last RWC form with his club form since he went back from NZ...

Morgannwg wrote:

whocares wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Well I'm glad we agree on the French Vultures. I guess nothing will be done unless the IRB step in.

can I ask what would the IRB be supposed to do?

Perhaps alter the residency rulings to stop Unions like yours poaching from others?

...

Erm, how may countrys' teams don't have foreigners playing for them? And I'm afraid in this case it's EU employment law, which the IRB has zero control over.

On the topic of foreigners etc why don't more NH players play in the SH?

Are there quotas in the Super XV?

beshocked

There isn't but the money's not particularly great down under, and NH players are spoilt in terms of pay and lifestyle!

There are a few now mind, and some are really excelling, Delve and Michilak are receiving plaudits for their contributions!

beshocked wrote:On the topic of foreigners etc why don't more NH players play in the SH?

Are there quotas in the Super XV?

That varies by country Beshocked. In NZ the NZRU pays all the wages for the NZ-eligible SXV players, and have a veto on non-NZ signings. That means the teams themselves have to talk very fast to get someone non-NZ qualified. Generally the only exceptions are PI players who've signed to an NPC team inside the franchise, or someone like Haskell who took a major paycut to go to the Highlanders. Most NPC provinces simply can't afford a top level NH player but you do get the odd young player coming to the INL Cup as a development/lifestyle experience.

In Australia it's similar, the Rebels have a dispensation to sign non-Aussies while they build local depth, but the other teams are Aus only, or "project" - there's a young Irish loosehead at the Brumbies for example.

In SA teams have more control (though they have race "quotas" to fill as a constraint) so you do get the likes of Michalak turning out.

I thought it was well accepted that Wellies and Alfie improved greatly during their spells in France. Both mid-career, as a matter of fact.

Kiwireddevil wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

whocares wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Well I'm glad we agree on the French Vultures. I guess nothing will be done unless the IRB step in.

can I ask what would the IRB be supposed to do?

Perhaps alter the residency rulings to stop Unions like yours poaching from others?

...

Erm, how may countrys' teams don't have foreigners playing for them? And I'm afraid in this case it's EU employment law, which the IRB has zero control over.

Hey don't moan at me, I didn't write that particular article. And actually the IRB can change the qualification for representing another playing countrty, so of course they have control.

samuraidragon wrote:I thought it was well accepted that Wellies and Alfie improved greatly during their spells in France. Both mid-career, as a matter of fact.

I wondered how long it would be before someone came out with this usual quote. They were both average before they left and were average when they came back. Although they both had qualities that often made them outstanding for the national team they played for.

Morgannwg wrote:

Kiwireddevil wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:

whocares wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Well I'm glad we agree on the French Vultures. I guess nothing will be done unless the IRB step in.

can I ask what would the IRB be supposed to do?

Perhaps alter the residency rulings to stop Unions like yours poaching from others?

...

Erm, how may countrys' teams don't have foreigners playing for them? And I'm afraid in this case it's EU employment law, which the IRB has zero control over.

Hey don't moan at me, I didn't write that particular article. And actually the IRB can change the qualification for representing another playing countrty, so of course they have control.

Sorry Morg, I misread your point as being about clubs hiring foreigners not international team eligibility - hence my comment was in regards to clubs not nations.

"Playing in France makes them better players" = BS

A better way of putting it is that playing in France will reveal how good a player is, in a sink-or-swim kind of way. Whether playing in France makes them better depends on whether they're capable of getting better.

Kiwireddevil wrote:

Sorry Morg, I misread your point as being about clubs hiring foreigners not international team eligibility - hence my comment was in regards to clubs not nations.

Well I am to understand that the clubs have been inviting overseas players over at a young age in order for them to become France qualified? And there was actually an article posted with regards to the clubs, in which you probably gave the above answer when that thread was posted.

luckless_pedestrian wrote:"Playing in France makes them better players" = BS

A better way of putting it is that playing in France will reveal how good a player is, in a sink-or-swim kind of way. Whether playing in France makes them better depends on whether they're capable of getting better.

Yeah exactly.