Do The Kiwi Know There Rugby?

First topic message reminder :

And now time for first time my article on rugby. Once again excuse with me by my poor English and ever will be improving. Thanks.

So my mind to day is on how because New Zeeland always the best in rugby? How is possible this? Some trick is it? Some little bit is South African there at the top on the list, and some time you might see Australia but not so long. Even once was my new home land of England for some period number one rankeding.

But all aside these small times is there New Zeeland. Winning if it is 7s game, or winning if it is rugby for girls and ladies, winning jooniar rugby competition and finally after some wait we can guessed there is another world cup win for them last year already and finally.

Now final thing from my many study on this forum and long histories in conversation here, for making better my English and understaning some things about live in the England, and also because I love so much this game I can see a true. There is many feature of New Zeeland the people that all can understand actually the rugby so much actually. You must now agree.

Now my proof is amazing prediction which you can see by searching history in this site that I can find three people Mr Taylorman, Mr Emack and Mr Grayghost they all predict something amazing that Stephen Donald will score some winning point for New Zeeland. Check yourself if you think I am lie or something like. Even at the same time telling he is not the best playing, they all say this true at one time.

I am amaze about this. And have to comment.

Have a good week.

Yes I saw the latest. He';s had another go...all in the name of charity. Somehow doesnt seem the same bloke anymore without his cloak...

Kia Ora Taylorman! Yeah, born in Kawerau, eastern bay of plenty but migrated to AKL as many do. Still support the chiefs though.

Yeah, the breakers game was a close run thing, right to the wire. Was awesome to see Bruton take control on the last play, just said, I'll take care of this. Love that confidence. That swat to deny us the win though was huge alright, what a play. Good on Perth, they deserved another game. So back to AKL we go.

Kiwis. We put up a decent fight, and can be proud of the effort. Wasn't a blow out as this fixture can be. With more prep to nail down back line plays, we'd show em How about that Johnson, he could be better than the little general. The 80s, yeah with tamati, filipaina, kemble, mcghan, graham, whizz, etc, they were some battles alright played on muddy fields, just slogging it out. I was young back then but we still got some wins against oz but they were still dominant.

I actually followed the old forum for several 'choke' years (2007'ish) and always cheered when yourself, Kia,,etc fought the good fight, but always got the choke tag thrown back as the logical conclusion to any debate. Man that was hilarious and very frustrating to read sometimes. There are some formidable debaters on this forum but yas did well. GG, man he was a classic, one funny/clever fella. Glad ya rode it out, and you guys don't gloat about the WC.

Saw the Henry comments and thought uh oh, here we go. All tongue in cheek mind, doubt he'd say these things in a formal interview, it's just banter and what the crowd at a charity event wanted to hear.

Rightyo, thanks for welcoming me, and hope the chiefs do the sharks in SA tonight!

Where New Zealand have got it right is they have one very strong team game
Rugby Union.They also produce great individuals in other fields as opposed to the team game.At 69 and an Anglo-Scot,I adopted the All Blacks in 1953-4and have been there staunchest fan ever since.I had relatives and friends in both Nz and Oz hence my continued interest.Unless things have changed a young kiwi will get a Rugby ball as a present at an early age.Mixed age group sides would play non-contact from 5 upwards sorted by weight etc.played shorter games on smaller pitches.teams like Marist would turn out about 30 sides at various age groups.Patrents would show support and maybe Coach as well,a player would rise thru the grades.Schoolboy,age group,club,provincial,Super,to Test in an organised manner.They` play tag,Touch Rugby,netball,Basketball or just throw a ball around.I am many things but when it comes to Rugby,I am NOT fool,a Hypocrite,or A Racial Bigot.I am a realist and pragmatist,for me Sport and politics should`nt mix but sadly they do.One of my narrow interests is History,I have few BUT those I have i`m pretty expert in.That a persons skin colour or religon or political beliefs make one person or regime superior to another is an anathema to me.Germany during the Nazi period,The East /West Cold war,The Boks during Apartheid trying to prove they were the superior race etc.More wars were fought over Colour or religon than any other in history.It was pretty hypocritical excluding SA from World Sport whilst continueing with more repulsive regimes etc.ALL teams have peaks and troughs,and periods of re-building.I went thru it with the All Blacks pre 1956,in the 1970`s when the NH caught up and overtook the SH Coaching wise for awhile.The Chokers bit at RWCs etc.There is much I regret was`nt carried over from the Amateur era including some laws,ideals etc.When they went pro the rise of Money was the difference,what was a Sport becomes a Business.Playing on a Saturday Afternoon in Open Stadia in Winter etc .gone.You can`t live in the past just
accept things as they are,Rugby is a job to the Players.They want to earn enough in a finite period[10years?] to set them and there families up for the future.Who can blame them ,not me but it does grieve one when the best players are cherry picked every season.Players are in the SH,money inthe NH or Japan that`s the rub.I don`t think ANY team is the Greatest these things go in circles.OF course I Think and say that MY Team is but it is only my opinion[ALLBLACKS].There is no RIGHT way to play Rugby,pick the team with your best players and game plan that suits you.Then Let the other team worry about you.

The Boks during Apartheid trying to prove they were the superior race etc.More wars were fought over Colour or religon than any other in history.It was pretty hypocritical excluding SA from World Sport whilst continueing with more repulsive regimes etc

Alan, now what does this have to do with the passion New Zealanders have for sport? Perhaps should leave the political debate for a different forum.

I sometimes wonder if you actually read the OP and respond on point, or just use the topic to recite all things All Black rugby.

I am amazed at you ownership and passion of a team from another country, let it never be said that you failed them.

eirebilly wrote:I will watch those a bit later Kia

Must return to NZ one day, if only for the crates of beer in the pub

was the crate thing recently billy? This was commonplace in tbhe 80s in Auckland. Star and Criterion hotels in Otahuhu and the flying jug in East Tamaki was the normal way to drink beer. Laurie will know these ones well

Well showing my age here but i experienced it in 94

eirebilly wrote:Well showing my age here but i experienced it in 94

All good. Was wondering as we dont see that much these days. Brings back memories alright.
93 was my only venture to the uk when we played the world pool in manchester.
In a flash hotel in we had a small bath of ice for our beer on the table as it wasnt cold. Never understood the warm beer thing.

People thought we were nuts.

We played the Irish. Wonder if you know the names. Greg F?- and Tony Holgate- he was great- good player too- got on with the kiwis and ozzies well. Ross McInness was very impressive from Scotland and lee kendall jason twist from england. But some seriously good sessions with those guys.

Not snooker but those guys could play. Charlton was there for oz but he usually kept to his usual eccentric self.

Taylorman, do you still play pool?

I remember some time back you were playing in some local competition.

what sort of beer did you put in the bath full of ice?

i couldnt imagine people thinking you were mad nuts in 93 for chilling beer!

but then northerners are a different breed i suppose

Play snooker mainly and the UK is the cream of the crop. The skill level and consistency of the top level continues to leave me in awe. Ive 3 centuries after 20 years in the game and these guys rattle 5 or 6 in before lunch.

We turned up to a place in manchester and. ..stupidly...asked for a local side to give us a match in pool... 9 a side. They said we'll get some of the guys upstairs to give you a run.

We went upstairs and there were about 25-30 snooker tables going- all of them. With names on a list waiting.

The guys they sent down were in a mixture of overalls and sports gear and slaughtered us, all discussing the centuries they got or didnt get that night but they were great. One of the best nights Ive ever had.

Taylorman- it was an anolmoly to find so many good snooker players even in the UK.

most of us are not that good.

i used to play semi pro 9 ball and have had a couple of hundred snooker breaks myself- however it is very rare for players to be at a century level.

mystiroakey wrote:what sort of beer did you put in the bath full of ice?

i couldnt imagine people thinking you were mad nuts in 93 for chilling beer!

but then northerners are a different breed i suppose

Not sure of the beer it was just that we had this huge bath of ice following us around. Mldlands hotel i think it was. Nice place but a pool players dream with half the hotel booked out with pool players from all over.

The dutch team stayed in their van outside the hotel!

We did visit Wigan as Frano Botica was there at the time but he wasnt around. Went out to sheffield to see the crucible but all locked up.

Anyway off topic but very excited with the world champs starting today. Luca Brecel the young belgian has a great future.
Saders killing the canes.

Wow you just reminded me- decent-something to watch for the next couple of weeks. My moneys on trump

mystiroakey wrote:Taylorman- it was an anolmoly to find so many good snooker players even in the UK.

most of us are not that good.

i used to play semi pro 9 ball and have had a couple of hundred snooker breaks myself- however it is very rare for players to be at a century level.

yeah was wondering. I put a heck of a lot of time in at one point and did ok down here but you guys are spoilt with the hendrys davis and especially the rockets raw talent. His 147s ive watched hundreds of times and never tire.
Perhaps its the reverse for our rugby but uk snooker is as close to sporting perfection as ive seen.

Biltongbek,I am not just having a go NOR trying to make Political debate I have the right as you to support any team I please.Once it only occurred 10years apart,I support England and Scotland against all others.My point is or was Sport should`nt be perverted for propaganda use,in the Now USA a war was fought to abolish slavery.Tell that the Non-Whites in the Southern States there to this day.Grid Iron Football one of there two star Sports only fairly recently has the star job Quarterback been a non-White.
I was going to write a seperate thread but this one seemed to be one to plug it in.I CARE passionately about this Sport,You tell me there is still a system that denies your best players becoming Boks,THAT to me is wrong.No one can help there place of Birth,there heritage,the politics of its Country.
You live with it i`m not a political animal nor a naive one I just want to see the best players for each country playing jt ..IF that means with Two heads Green,with Purple Spots speaking polish that`s fine with me.
What happened when SA went into isolation,while still having Sporting contacts with far worse groups of Countries was plain hypocrisy.SA was`nt actively hostile in recent years to Great Britain,[later the CommonWealth,or the United Kingdom call it what you will.]You speak up for your chosen Country,I mine my knowledge of there rugby and the intertwining with yours is very comprehensive.IF you find my comments distasteful you are at liberty to remove same,NOT a power I have for yours.

And then you have a dig at the "superior race". Those type of comments are only to incite, it brings nothing to the debate.

I used to play 9 ball 7 hours a day for about a year-I have a full size table in my double garage, It does effect my snooker mind because i tend to play shots with too much side.However my neighbour has an ex sheffield practise table in his summer house(it has very tight pockets)- After playing a bit on that i go to a club and the pockets are like buckets..

Yep 9 ball big pockets n balls you can afford a lot of side. Thats some serious game though.
Line shots down the cush is no comparison with snooker but from your few words you would beat me. I got to no.2 in nz pool here but only through compiling ranking points and never actually winning a title. Youll know what i mean. The level here is not that high.

Biltong please THAT is not a dig THAT is proven fact the Athletes from the Eastern Bloc had more Chemicals in there blood than ICI.During Apartheid Rugby Union was the proof of the Boer Manhood,that isn`t a dig nor mean`t to incite that is Fact.The Final test 1976 was won by the Boks due to Ref making a political decision.When a Ref tells a Touring side .Ouote "You`re going Home,I have to live here"/Chris Bezendhouit 4th test Sa versus NZ.
Boers were favoured over English speaking Players for Tours,there was talk of "Die Broderbonde" you know doubt have translations for that.Also In any given circumstance the Boks ALWAYS picked the tallest and Heavist player from two of equal ability.It is true Home side Refs were rife in BOTH Countries,that
superiority was THE DE FACTO RWC then.BOTH sides tried to prove there way was best.NOT for the Political stuff JUST to prove they were THE best side in the World AT THE TIME.My respect for BOK Rugby has`nt changed since day one,I STILL think they are one of the BEST two teams in the World ansd always have been.Sometimes when I reply I just can`t find the right words to say EXACTLY what I feel.PLEASE do not take this the wrong way I am NOT trying to incite trouble.BUT as always trying to debate a topic,I hope to see a very good side
for the Boks play England and the 4Ns.I hope Enhgland win at least one as encouragement.I see Victor Matfield has been asked to comeback to improve experience.The Bok side is hardly likely to lack those so presumeably he will be Captain.

Taylorman
When I first went to Otahuhu rugby they were building the new clubrooms (old ones got burnt down)at Sturges Park,so in lieu of clubrooms we used to use the Criterion on Great south road and Pat Walsh's pub over by Mangere mountain.

In so far as the flying jug over in East Tamaki was concerned, I know cops that used to speed up when going past,it was dangerous.

Yes I remember the club had burnt down. I never knew it before it was. Was it in the same place. I seem to remember it was down on nikau road. Might be wrong.

Was too young for the cri..just. The star was a shocker. The lazy lion or blackbridge tavern was walshs pub. Was going to mention that. Wasnt sure you knew it.

Wr mostly went to the duke or st george in papatoetoe if it wasnt the club. Or even out to cleos and ardijah. Great days.

It's only really Ales we drink "warm"- read room temperature, because they have more distinctive flavours than lagers etc and over chilling them reduces that flavour which is a shame. It should never be warm just not cold

Wow taylorman. you did well. i used to play on the uk 9 ball tour. my only big acheivement was getting beat by tony drago.. i won a few quid though but mainly from local comps.

Taylorman wrote:

eirebilly wrote:Well showing my age here but i experienced it in 94

All good. Was wondering as we dont see that much these days. Brings back memories alright.

It was something that i had never experienced and have never experienced again. I really enjoyed it as well, great people.

The Chiefs and Stormers are THE S15 teams at the moment,Highlanders still flying high.Bulls looking menacing,Hurricanes maybe starting to fade,Crusaders on a charge.Australian looks between Wara tahs and Brumbies,injuries have nobbled the Reds and the Blues.Sharks will depend on a good run in.As an aside do teams like Wellington Athletic who toured here 1963,and Pirates still exist at some level?

What amazed me about rugby in NZ is how young children are when they start playing it. Like 5years of age! You see more small children playing rugby now in Ireland but most would still start at secondary school age, 13 ish. I don't know how other countries introduce their children to rugby but this might be part of the reason for New Zealand's success in this sport.

There are times I really wonder about people who put kids into rugby and expect them to grasp a concept of a game at the age of 5,sure they can learn skills and spend lots of time with a ball,but not in a game environment.

I was lucky I first played at the age of seven,at least you can comprehend the roles of positions and the difference between forwards and backs etc. but before then its a waste of time in fact it will probably turn kids off the game.we were not allowed to play until we could satisfy the coach (another kids dad) that we could tackle,pass backwards, and if we were forwards how to pack in a scrum.

My boy is 8 now and plays hooker for his age group. It is amazing how quickly they learn structure an technique.

too true, you see the kids that have a competitive streak in them yet there are others who are more than happy just playing in the mud.

You should have seen my son when their tighthead didn't crouch and engage correctly. He just went to the teacher and complained, he got a new tighthead and their scrum improved tremendously.

Their first match they lost 28-20, cause they couldn't get a kick through, their second one they dominated possession so mush, but took about 12 minutes before they got their first of 4 tries. Their matches are 20 minutes per half. They eventually scored 4 tries to nil.

Its good to see your boy understands the merit of having a competent tighthead,usually in the kids teams here the tighthead would belt the proverbial out of any hooker that dared to rat on them to a teacher.

If a boy can grow up and learn instinctively the rules of cricket - try explaining the LBW rule to someone who doesn't know the game and see how far you get - then I think the same can be said for rugby. My nephews got an IPAD and in 30 seconds they were downloading games (free ones) without being told how to do it. If you start them young, success will come.

So what age do you think is the best to start learning rugby?

Also do you think that it is an advantage to their rugby if children to play other sports too?

When I ask this I'm thinking of Geordan Murphy and Rob Kearney who were excellent gaelic footballers, and the rake of other players currently and formerly in the Irish national side who came to rugby late in their teens. There's actually too many to mention them all but apart from gaelic footballers there are people like Tony Ward who was a professional soccer player as well as the Ireland outhalf, and BOD who played soccer I think until he was 15. (Not 100% sure on BOD but he was a relative latecomer to rugby.

I thought that it must be the young age that people start playing rugby in NZ (compared to Ireland anyway) that helps them produce such wonderful rugby players but maybe it's not that simple and there's much more to it than that.

Other players, like Nick Evans, also played Aussie Rules Football, so I'm sure that it's (and Gaelic football) a sport that aids playing rugby

I am not sure there is a perfect formula as to when you should start playing rugby.

But if you look at SA and NZ where rugby is played from a very early age and they are consistently in the top it does provide some form of idea that it isn't a bad thing.

Our kids play "Cub" or "bulletjie" rugby from age 5, depending in what province you live. It there isn't any set phases, just a bunch of kids running after a ball, learning to run and pass.

When they reach "U9" age group in grade three they start playing proper rugby, with 8 man scrums where you do the same engage procedure as the seniors, it is just the engage is not a "hit", they do full line outs, lifting, rucks etc.

It is interesting to see how the kids are taught to protect themselves in the ruck situation etc.

I'm no expert in this, but in NZ, there is a reserve or park in walking distance from most houses. When bored, kids will get together and throw a ball around. Usually it's just touch rugby, 5 aside soccer or cricket, just basic forms of the games and is perhaps where skills are honed, but not necessarily where rules are learnt. Probably the same in SA. In the UK, open spaces are more at a premium as towns were not designed around leisure activities such as walking dogs, picnics, and for bored kids.

I was introduced to Rugby Union,in what was primary School age 10[1953] but did`nt play until several years later.I was sports mad then,went to the local library and mugged up on rules etc.We had an ex-navy PTI as our Sports master,and he taught us bits like a chip kick over a player and catch it on the fly,selling a dummy etc.I played Soccer,Cricket,Rugby,and Hockey at school level was a good Goal keeper at Soccer and Hockey,Wicket keeper and Bowler[Fast and Spin,]and made myself a brilliant fielder close in .Rugby was only a fringe Sport in our area,I played second Row.In a 3-2-3 scrum number 8 was referred to as LOCK.We got regularly beaten as we were playing local schools with a couple of years on us [15v16-17].Don`t pretend I was good at it but did enjoy myself,also played pick up games with kids after school.

Hi emack, where did you grow up?

It's hard to imagine how a 3-2-3 scrum could be stable. Was it SA that lead the change in formation to its current form?

My son's just starting rippa rugby and he is nearly 6. He's hopeless but loves it. There are no positions but the coach is teaching them some good basic skills like forming the defensive line, getting behind and supporting the runner, giving the runner a target to pass to and having a look at who you are going to pass to before passing.

Sadly the 4 year old girl on the other team went around my boy like a go aroundy thing. Hilarious.

I know some clubs in Wellington are starting a programme for 3 years olds.

I am an Anglo-Scot,Born in Bournemouth,Dorset,England ,United Kingdom[once we were in the County of Hampshire before boundary changes].3-2-3 Scrum was as broad as it was wide,in those days the full wheel was legal.The ball would be hooked and held in the second row,scrum wheeled.Front row stay bound,whilst the back 5 detached dribbling the ball[hacking it on].THE DRIBBLING RUSH,in Winter Conditions with the Old style Leather Balls it was a favourite Weapon of my Scottish forebears.We had distant relatives in the Otago,Dunedin area of NZ[I also have distant relatives in OZ including maybe Joe Roff].THAT plus the art of Rush Stopping is a lost art,George Nepia and Bob Scott were expert at it.Packs attacked and defended as a unit,all 8 it was a sin to be called "Fringer".That is a Hennie Muller,or a Bill Clark,they were tactical innovations,BUT really they were just the ROVER of the old 2-3-2 scrum updated.3-4-1 was more or less Universal some time in the 1960`s Scotland were I think the last major Tier1 to abandon it.In the 1960`s Flankers just packed with one arm resting on the Scrum not really bound when the non-hooking side.The 3-4-1 Scrum was THE BOK SCRUM,the AllBlacks adopting but not learning the dynamics until courtesy of Danie Craven 1949.Hampered there Rugby 1930s[when 2-3-2 was banned]till mid way thru 1949 tour by the end of which they were as good the BOKS.[Dynamics was in the foot placement and timing of leg thrust by the back 5].Ironically the 2-3-2 had been deemed inadquate during 1928 and they converted it to a 3-3-2 scrum[THE Classic Cavanagh based Loose Scrum/Ruck either side of the war.]

Interesting, thanks emack

When I played college hooker the number 8 was called the lock, as he locks the scrum together.

But then flankers were called breakaways and no 10 the 5/8th

Actually it is only fairly recently there has been more or less universal terminology of positions.For example depending where you lived. The Props were referred to as Front Rowers,Props or Tight Head and Loose head Props.
Wings,Scrum Half,FullBack,Hooker was universal,Centres were just that,or Inside and Outside Centres,or Centre and second five eight[or a half back either side of the scrum].Fly half,Stand off Half,Outside Half,or First Five Eighth[again half back either side of the scrum].Second Rows or Locks.Back Row,Lock,Number 8,.Flankers,Breakaways ,or Wing Forwards.To be Pedantic Wing Forward [or Rover] which was the original 8th forward in the 2-3-2 Scrum.
The Current Open side,number 8,Blind side systwem was a scrum defence system evolved by the English back row circa 1934-5.SA and NZ played right and left Flank.

This guy must be taking the **ss !

Taking what thing?