Prospects For Argentina In The Rugby Championship

This year, Argentina will finally make their debut in an annual rugby tournament, entering the expanded Tri-Nations which shall now be known as The Rugby Championship.

So how will Argentina fare in their first tournament? With their players plying their trade in Europe in the main, they will be at the end of a long season which began with a World Cup in New Zealand in September and will finish on the 16th October a year later. Add into this, they will be playing against the three best teams in the world and expectations are immediately low.

What should they aim for? In my opinion, they should be looking at 2 home wins as a minimum. Argentina will be a tough place to travel to and they should use that to their advantage especially as they fought against the SANZAR axis and have selected all three of their games to be outside Buenos Aires. Of their away games, Australia might be the best chance of an away victory, as this will be Australia's first ever game in Gold Coast, so might be a little unsettled in those surroundings but it will still be a tough ask.

Here are all the fixtures:

Round 1 v South Africa, Newlands, Cape Town

Round 2 v South Africa, Estadio Malvinas Argentinas, Mendoza

Round 3 v New Zealand, Westpac Stadium, Wellington

Round 4 v Australia, Skilled Park, Gold Coast

Round 5 v New Zealand, Estadio Ciudad de La Plata, La Plata

Round 6 v Australia, Estadio Gigante de Arroyito, Rosario


I think that no matter what pack they select, they will prove nuggety opposition and cause trouble for whoever they encounter but it is the backline which will determine how well they do. Juan Martin Hernandez has had a good run without injury recently and has been doing well for Racing Metro at pivot. His team mate at Racing, Juan Imhoff, has been one of the finds of the season after a good World Cup on the wing. Lucas Amorisino will provide a dangerous attacking option from deep, while they possess other good players in the form of Martin Rodriguez and Santiago Fernandez. Where they are weak is at outside centre.

So what are your thoughts and hopes for Los Pumas in the upcoming Championship?

I think the Pumas will get spanked in every game if I am being totally honest.

They do reasonably ok at world cups when they have a full side out but I don't think they have much depth and their pack at the WC was ancient.

It will be a long championship for them I think.

It´s a tough ask for their players to continue after the European season.

That said, there are a few things in their favour. The Super rugby season is appallingly long as well and some of the home games for Australia, SA and NZ might be seen as an opportunity to rest some key players for the bigger matches. Samoa showed Australia for example what can happen if players don´t turn up mentally for a game.

None of Argentina´s home games is in Buenos Aires. La Plata is the closest. That means extra travel to an already distant destination. That might well have an effect on the touring sides. Argentina will be no easy beats at home and so whilst I think even two home wins is a tall order, I wouldn't be surprised if it happened.

Lastly, nobody gives Argentina a prayer. That means they play with no pressure and have nothing to lose. That has served them well in the past. They have been waiting in the wilderness for eons for a real rugby tournament to play in. Their performances in the World Cup have proven very encouraging to date. Maybe a place in the 4N - I refuse to call it by its real name - will lift their performance to a higher level like in the World Cup.

I expect them to spring a couple of surprises. Any team in world rugby that can cope against the big SH three at set piece and has an impressive defence has the ability to get a win. They won't try to get too creative but they will try to be very good at what they do well.

TBH I can only see Argentina getting a win if one of the other teams rests players for the long trip to Argentina.

Great to see them involved, but will be a tough few years for them IMO.

Argentina has some very good players and if they can get a full fit team out (they didn't manage that at the RWC) then they can make any team in the world work hard for the win. NZ found them a considerable speed bump at the RWC and that was without Hernandez and Contepomi the major playmakers. There are options in the front row other than the old legends as well, like Marcos Ayerza who would walk into a few international squads.

Argentina are good for a win or two but this is all excellent news for them. The wealth of experience that they will gain by playing against the big 3 is priceless.

They may struggle for many years but will eventually become competitive.

How do people think Argentina playing in this tournament will help their employability?

It basically means if clubs sign Argentinian internationalists then they will be without them for the first few months of the season, which will include Heineken Cup games.

Thats a fair point RDW, the clashes with internationals will not please their clubs, especially the French ones.

I think that unless they are truly elite players, they are going to struggle to find contracts as they won't be able to start playing for the clubs until December, missing the first three months of each season.

Hopefully it sees more Argentines signing for Super Rugby sides.

I think Argentina need to develop professional rugby clubs if they are to improve.

Beshocked if the semi-pro sides in Argentina could afford to go pro I think they would but the place is so football mad that the market isn't really there.

the rugby championship- sounds abit like 'the world series.

cocky SH teams lol- couldnt they have just called it the quadnations

I personally think Argentina should set their sights on trying to win their home games. Either way it will be a tough ask as they have a dismall record against these three nations.

From a development perspective, I would expect SANZAR to open their doors and go the next step to assist Argentina with retaining their top players in the same season structure as them.

Las Pampas has been playing in the South African domestic competition for the last two or three years, having great success last year by not only winning the trophy but going unbeaten through the tournament.

If all the Super 15 Franchises open up 2 spots for Argentinean players then they will be able to have 30 players set up in the SH.

From there they can then start looking at how they will finance at least two squads to form part of the Super rugby series.

SA and Australia should then each relinquish a spot for the two Argentinean sides, with NZ following a few years later to accommodate another argentinean side.

Just my opinion.

mystiroakey wrote:the rugby championship- sounds abit like 'the world series.

cocky SH teams lol- couldnt they have just called it the quadnations

True. Though 4 Nations was used before France joined to make it 5 Nations, and I think RL already has a lock on QuadNations

Tell you what, when the RFU becomes the "ERFU" we'll change too

Mystir, put that in your pipe and smoke it.

yeah- well thing is- i am not sure if italy would have stayed in the 6nations if we all had to travel half way around the world and have the games on at random viewing times. i am not sure this rugby championship is even gonna work out! i can see the allblacks whinging about it in years to come!

Visiting teams will have to be careful or they'll find themselves nationalised by the Argentian government!

PS when you lot invent a few sports you can leave your national moniker off the governing body. (Aussie rules doesn't count as the shorts are FAR too tight.)

mystiroakey wrote: couldnt they have just called it the quadnations

That just brings to mind images of a country full of people with big thighs!

the rugby championship- sounds abit like 'the world series.

cocky SH teams lol- couldnt they have just called it the quadnations

I'm sure someone on here previously recommended the Southern Hemisphere International Tournament as a perfectly good name for the competition...

mystiroakey wrote:the rugby championship- sounds abit like 'the world series.

cocky SH teams lol- couldnt they have just called it the quadnations

On reflection, the Yanks have their World Series* because no-one else is any good at baseball** ...













* Actually it's because the original trophy was put up by a newspaper called the "World" ...
** Actually Japan and several latin american countries can field handy national sides, but all the top players are at US clubs

tough at home to beat .... well Scotland have beaten them 3 times in a row since 2008 in Argentina... sort of puts their actual prospects into perspective.

It will be similar to that of Italy when they first joined the 6N... go out to be competitive but sure pick your games.
Don't get deterred by the odd thumping... it will happen.

Are they better placed than Italy was... yes and no... there are no weak teams in the 3N unlike the 5N before it.

Lets be honest if Wales, England or Ireland were in a 4N with the 3N sides and they got 1 win out of 6 most realistic home fans would count that as a half decent result... and they are all better outfits than Argentina.

First up "The Rugby Championship" is a ridiculous name. Very pompous.

Secondly Argentina have never beaten SA nor NZ. Have they ever beaten Oz? Nor sure. Anyway I reckon they should aim to win one match year one, two in year two and then three. They will be competitive as always and a good addition. Looking forward to watching them.

I think theyir experience will be similar to Italy in the 6 Nations. They might nab one home win driven by the enthusiasm of being in the tournament. But they simply aren't in the same class as the other three. In fact 2007 was five years ago now. They're not as good as they were. They're probably not in the same class as the top 4 European nations either.

They'll struggle for results for a long time and will receive many thrashings. People say Argentinians could play in the Super 15 sides, or Argentinian pro franchises should be started. But none of this has happened yet. Like with Italy, they waited to long to let them in. Their golden generation has aged and/or retired. They don't have the domestic structures to compete.

The big plus is that they'll have far more internationals. And against the best teams in the world. In the long run that means they'll have far more money to get the appropriate domestic pro teams in place. And simply competing with the big three will improve them. Don't expect miracles though. They'll be whipping boys for many years.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

the rugby championship- sounds abit like 'the world series.

cocky SH teams lol- couldnt they have just called it the quadnations

I'm sure someone on here previously recommended the Southern Hemisphere International Tournament as a perfectly good name for the competition...

I like it.

Kiwireddevil wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:the rugby championship- sounds abit like 'the world series.

cocky SH teams lol- couldnt they have just called it the quadnations

True. Though 4 Nations was used before France joined to make it 5 Nations, and I think RL already has a lock on QuadNations

Tell you what, when the RFU becomes the "ERFU" we'll change too

Though the English could only be that pompous. Twickers being called HQ, RFU etc. Rugby championship is a poor effort at a name.

leinsterbaby wrote:

Kiwireddevil wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:the rugby championship- sounds abit like 'the world series.

cocky SH teams lol- couldnt they have just called it the quadnations

True. Though 4 Nations was used before France joined to make it 5 Nations, and I think RL already has a lock on QuadNations

Tell you what, when the RFU becomes the "ERFU" we'll change too

Though the English could only be that pompous. Twickers being called HQ, RFU etc. Rugby championship is a poor effort at a name.

Tbf England is the home of rugby and that's where the first Union was created

leinsterbaby

The South American Jaguars beat SA in SA in the 80s... they were all Argentinians bar one or two players from what I've been told.

As much as anything that was a Argentinian side and SA were near unbeatable at home during this period.

gowales wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:

Kiwireddevil wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:the rugby championship- sounds abit like 'the world series.

cocky SH teams lol- couldnt they have just called it the quadnations

True. Though 4 Nations was used before France joined to make it 5 Nations, and I think RL already has a lock on QuadNations

Tell you what, when the RFU becomes the "ERFU" we'll change too

Though the English could only be that pompous. Twickers being called HQ, RFU etc. Rugby championship is a poor effort at a name.

Tbf England is the home of rugby and that's where the first Union was created

I have to agree with that. Presumably it's called RFU, because when it was set up it was the only one. Same with the FA. Although I think the claim that the English "invented" football isn't entirely accurate, they were the first to formalize the rules and set up an FA. In rugby's case I think they definitely did invent it.

To begin with I thought Argentina would struggle but I do think they have an outside chance of beating the Wallabies in Argentina. They definitely need a full-strength team and for the Wallabies not to turn up. It's difficult to say but I prefer the format of teams playing each other once home and away rather than one team twice at home and one away and the other once at home and twice away that we've had in recent years in the Tri Nations.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

gowales wrote:

leinsterbaby wrote:

Kiwireddevil wrote:

mystiroakey wrote:the rugby championship- sounds abit like 'the world series.

cocky SH teams lol- couldnt they have just called it the quadnations

True. Though 4 Nations was used before France joined to make it 5 Nations, and I think RL already has a lock on QuadNations

Tell you what, when the RFU becomes the "ERFU" we'll change too

Though the English could only be that pompous. Twickers being called HQ, RFU etc. Rugby championship is a poor effort at a name.

Tbf England is the home of rugby and that's where the first Union was created

I have to agree with that. Presumably it's called RFU, because when it was set up it was the only one. Same with the FA. Although I think the claim that the English "invented" football isn't entirely accurate, they were the first to formalize the rules and set up an FA. In rugby's case I think they definitely did invent it.

cant agree with that- incarnations of all sports like football, golf,rigby etc were played everywhere(tribal dudes just played games)- it is only about who invented 'sport' as we know it and the rules governing them- and that is us brits on the whole , that fact can be applied to rugby and football in the same way

the difference is propaganda from fifa trying to dissociate the game from britain! thats all

england is the home of football, just like its the home of cricket and rugby, just like scotland is the home of golf.


Assuming that a sport originated elsewhere is futile and can never be prooved- because it could have also been invented by a caveman a million years ago when land mass was all stuck together!! whos to say that two people from opposite sides of the world didnt make a ball out of a dead persons head and started up a game of kick between two trees at exactly the same time!!

it is only about who invented the sport as we know it! and in footballs case its england, as is most sports

Sadly I think Argentina will get a bit of a spanking from the big three. And if they don't then that's more to do with the SANZAR teams not taking it seriously then the Argentinians.

They've lost most matches against every NH side when they've toured us and lost at home to most of us too, if the SH can't better that then i'd be surprised.

mystiroakey wrote:it is only about who invented the sport as we know it! and in footballs case its england, as is most sports

Yeah that's fair enough I suppose. But there was a football type game played all over the place before the rules were formalized. That's all I'm saying. The earliest recorded one is in China I think. But it was in England that modern football's rules were made. So if anywhere is the home of football, it's England, I'll give you that.

as i said , games like football would have been played anywhere and everywhere(i am 100% positive that even the earliest recorded isnt the earliest!!)- there is no claim anywhere but england- england invented football and that is real true 100% history!

Judging by the posts on here, not many give Argentina a chance. I tend to have the feeling though they could spring a few surprises particularly at home. Being written off before the tournament mean they go in with no pressure. They might not have won against the likes of NZ but I can´t recall more than a handful of tests played there. What I do remember was that there weren´t any blowouts like a few times they came to NZ. They will be a handful at home. They are a richer man's version of Italy and they have claimed the odd significant scalp in the 6N and run a few others all too close. But it only takes a little over two hours to fly to Italy and Argentina with Hernandez look a much better team in the backs.

kia they will offcourse do the occasional italy- however the problem is is that the 3 sh teams are much more consitant than france,england and wales, so i fear for them

biltongbek wrote:I personally think Argentina should set their sights on trying to win their home games. Either way it will be a tough ask as they have a dismall record against these three nations.

From a development perspective, I would expect SANZAR to open their doors and go the next step to assist Argentina with retaining their top players in the same season structure as them.

Las Pampas has been playing in the South African domestic competition for the last two or three years, having great success last year by not only winning the trophy but going unbeaten through the tournament.

If all the Super 15 Franchises open up 2 spots for Argentinean players then they will be able to have 30 players set up in the SH.

From there they can then start looking at how they will finance at least two squads to form part of the Super rugby series.

SA and Australia should then each relinquish a spot for the two Argentinean sides, with NZ following a few years later to accommodate another argentinean side.

Just my opinion.

I think the Argies will beat Auz at home

Also the argies can well surive on two teams as does Italy and Scotland.

Also sadly I think it would go s20 with 2 argies 1 SA and 1 Nz and either a Auz or Sa team that souds like a tv solution to the problem

I think they might be on the wrong side of some hidings no doubt particularly away. But if their involvement in the 4N brings their player base from Europe to the SH and gets them involved in the Super tournament and they can build up a professional league in Argentina then I don´t think that is anything to fear. So long as they have realistic expectations mixed with clear objectives they want to reach then I think it's positive news for them. Even though Italy don't win many 6N games they´re still better off in the comp than out.

have italy improved?

is the 6 nations better with italy or without?

most of the time the winner is just decided by who gets a home draw with them and how many points are racked up!

however i am glad we are expanding european rugby- but there is a case that italy might have progressed furthar by being a top dog of tier two nations in europe- they could have promoted a league that included georgia,russia,portugal etc- then we could have had some sort of promotion to the 6 nations!!

i like the idea of adding teams to your tourny- i dont get why somoa,tong and figi arnt forming up thou!!

surely you lot should worry about your own neighbours before adding other sides that have nothing to do with you geographically! its just continuing an elitest trend

I think Argentina will more than hold they own and may shock a few in the home fixtures but I feel they will struggle on the away legs.

argentina wont just be playing away in the away legs- they are virtually playing away in there home legs!! something to remember - there will be no fortress at home and most will have to travel far!

Well geographically there is no difference between Argentina and SA in relation to NZ!

The case of the Pacific Islands is a complicated one. It isn't feasible or viable to ask them to travel that amount of distances to play in those games. Moreover, their proximity to the equator makes it difficult to play rugby there. They would have to be night games and their stadiums are even far smaller than NZ so revenue would effectively come exclusively from television rights. Their players are scattered across the globe even more than Argentina as well. What happens as well to the Asia Cup that includes those teams currently? Argentina had the benefit of not being involved in any tournament in the international scene. I agree though that something needs to be done to incorporate the Pacific Island teams. Maybe fielding a Pacific Island combined team and housing them in Auckland but is this counterproductive for the individual island nations. I prefer an idea similar to yours of combining the Asia Cup and having a relegation and promotion set up between the two tournaments.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Maybe fielding a Pacific Island combined team.

That could be potentially a great side. The individual nations could enter super rugby maybe? In a conference with an Argentinian franchise or two? Is that a mad idea? Then the islanders could combine to form a formidable test team in the rugby championship. But I wonder would the islanders themselves relate to it? I have no knowledge of these places really. Maybe there's strong rivalries and they'd prefer to take pride in their own nation than follow a combined team. Even though I think they'd be a really good side if all the best players were available.

People do tend to view the Pacific Islands together. But there is nothing really similar about Fijians and say Samoans. Fijians are Melanesians and Samoans are Polynesians. It´s like lumping Rumania and Georgia into a combined team. The language is different and I don't think it develops their own individual national teams by merging them together. There´s certainly no love lost when say Tonga and Samoa play one another. But a combined Pacific Islands team has played NZ and Australia I think and so fair enough people have that perception. I think a combined Pacific Island team in the Super franchise makes sense and then internationally they should be allowed to play individually.

The problem with the global game is that the big tournaments don't intersect with other tournaments in either hemisphere and by the time the World Cup comes along, there is a clear disparity between the elite sides and the rest. Some global integrative tournament needs to exist alongside the regional comps.

I understand your point Kia on the PIs.... however I wouldn't mind for instance seeing the PIs in a rugby championship type competition and then for the RWC they would play as their own individual nations.

The only reason I would see this is competition.

The sport is dominated by 5 teams in reality. Thats pretty small and hardly warrants a global sport tag. I doubt also regardless of all the development funds that would go the way of the Italy's, Georgia's, Argentina's etc that the top 5 will continue to dominate the sport and give few else a look in.

One way would be to pool the islands together into one side like they have done in the past.

However you're better placed to know if this would be likely to work.. its not easy bringing rivals together and make them a team.

Nevertheless for anyone saying that sport cannot bridge differences just look at Ireland. They take players from both the north and the south regardless of the issues the region has had over the last 100 years +.

After they gained their independence the south still supplies players to the Lions... what was previously the British Isles team.

Personally I think the PI's side never worked previously because they weren't getting success... as the Lions face every 4 years its not easy throwing players together in the hope of making a competitive rugby team... but if they played together more regularly then I'm sure it would work.

Argentina v SANZAR for the last decade or so:

Australia (14) 24 - 8 (3) Argentina 2003
Argentina (6) 6 - 17 (14) Australia 2002
Australia (21) 32 - 25 (17) Argentina 2000
Australia (15) 53 - 6 (3) Argentina 2000
Argentina (15) 18 - 16 (13) Australia 1997
Argentina (6) 15 - 23 (11) Australia 1997

South Africa (14) 63 - 9 (9) Argentina 2008
Argentina (6) 13 - 37 (24) South Africa 2007
Argentina (20) 23 - 34 (16) South Africa 2005
Argentina (7) 7 - 39 (36) South Africa 2004
South Africa (13) 26 - 25 (15) Argentina 2003
South Africa (17) 49 - 29 (13) Argentina 2002
Argentina (16) 33 - 37 (24) South Africa 2000

New Zealand (12) 33 - 10 (7) Argentina 2011
Argentina (16) 19 - 25 (15) New Zealand 2006
New Zealand (24) 41 - 7 (7) Argentina 2004
Argentina (10) 20 - 24 (8) New Zealand 2001
New Zealand (31) 67 - 19 (14) Argentina 2001

The pacific islanders has already been tried and failed in results and commercially. I believe the respective unions actually decided to disband it. You wont see another PI team of any sort for a long time

dominated by 5 teams?.

The sport is dominated by 7 teams not 5..

i think its unfair to not include ireland and wales- both win 6 nations

Round 2 v South Africa, Estadio Malvinas Argentinas, Mendoza

There could be a diplomatic incident if any UK countries get invited to play at that venue (rugby or football).

Portnoy wrote:

Round 2 v South Africa, Estadio Malvinas Argentinas, Mendoza

There could be a diplomatic incident if any UK countries get invited to play at that venue (rugby or football).

Excuse my lack of knowledge, but why ?