Argentina in the Rugby Championship

Struggle...

Is the only word that can be used for the Pumas in the upcoming Rugby Championship.

Now the tours downunder its only weeks away until the next tournament in our zone.

For the record...
Since the professional era this is the record against the 3 SH sides:

-Played 28, won 1 (beat Aus 18-16 in 1997) for a 3.6% win rate.
-Average score of 41-17 with 5 tries to 2 scored.

In the same period they have 40 wins from 84 matches against 6N sides at 47.6%.
Notable wins since 2011 over France, Scotland and Italy.

Hardly the credentials to suggest a chance in this championship. Given the other 3 will see this match as must win for any hopes of the title Argentina are in for a torrid time in whats simply the toughest in Rugby to win where NO match is easy...until now.

a lot of truth in that.

the 2 bonus points from ARG may be key for the other 3 sides.. something I think SA (given their attacking problems) and potentially AUS may suffer from if they fail to compete in the pack.

They may, just may sneak a win vs. AUS at home. If they do get a win I reckon they should be awarded the 4N trophy by default (sort of joking, sort of not! ).

Even though Argentina may find their first season in the Rugby Championship tough, I am looking forward to it for pure purpose of variety, also we will see two matches per weekend rather than one.

i don't think we must simply write off Argentina either. They might just use that same pride and passion they had in 2007 and take a scalp somewhere.

It's all about the long-term gain. Argentina will grow from the experience of frequently playing rugby at the highest level against the most efficient, fundamentally sound sides in international rugby.

It'll be painful at first, as at the moment they can only really compete in the forward department vs SH teams but not really at the breakdown and definitely not in the backs. However, in a couple of years I expect it'll be much different

France just pooed all over them

I'm pretty shocked at their scoreline against the French tonight, not what I'd have expected based on two good wins previously. The Argie line-up does look somewhat experimental? But even if that is the case then such a lack of depth could cause them serious problems...

Taylorman wrote:Struggle...

Is the only word that can be used for the Pumas in the upcoming Rugby Championship.

Now the tours downunder its only weeks away until the next tournament in our zone.

For the record...
Since the professional era this is the record against the 3 SH sides:

-Played 28, won 1 (beat Aus 18-16 in 1997) for a 3.6% win rate.
-Average score of 41-17 with 5 tries to 2 scored.

In the same period they have 40 wins from 84 matches against 6N sides at 47.6%.
Notable wins since 2011 over France, Scotland and Italy.

Hardly the credentials to suggest a chance in this championship. Given the other 3 will see this match as must win for any hopes of the title Argentina are in for a torrid time in whats simply the toughest in Rugby to win where NO match is easy...until now.

Quoting you

Wrong......

Is the only word that can be used with you.

Puma's history against the 3 SH sides:

Pumas vs Au: 4 win / 12 lost / 1 even
Pumas vs SA: 1 win / 13 lost / 1 even
Pumas vs NZ: 0 win / 12 lost / 1 even. Does not look very impressive. But how many teams (out of 2HS and 6n) win over they? NONE!

Puma's history against the 6N sides:

Pumas vs Scotland: 11 win / 5 lost / 0 even
Pumas vs France: 12 win / 33 lost / 1 even
Pumas vs Ireland: 7 win / 9 lost / 1 even
Pumas vs England: 4 win / 10 lost / 2 even
Pumas vs Wales: 4 win / 8 lost / 1 even
Pumas vs Italy: 11 win / 5 lost / 1 even

Now, of course, Pumas has a very little chance against the 3 bigs, but, What other team has a better chance?

Just tell me a team (out of 3 bigs and out of 6n) with better performance than the Pumas.

Facts:
How many teams (not 3N or 6N) have reached the semi-finals in a RWC? ONE! just ONE! The answer: Pumas
How many teams (not 3N or 6N) finish third in a RWC? Again ONE! just ONE!. The answer: Pumas
More, How many times Italy, Ireland and Scotland finish third in a RWC? NEVER! Repeat NEVER!
How many teams (not 3N or 6N) won to other 3 (6N) teams in a RWC? Again ONE! just ONE!. Pumas won France (twice), Ireland and Scotland in 2007 WRC.
If you want to expand the 3n to 4n, there aren't a team with better history performance that Pumas.
These are facts, not wrong opinions.
Jast tell us, with strong arguments, What team has a better record than the Pumass to be the fourth team in the tournament?
Thank you.

Good luck to Argentina in the Rugby Championship although I really can't see past a complete whitewash of losses, this year anyway. Argentina joining is for the longterm, and the regular exposure to top international sides can only see them improve in the future.

Wi11 wrote:I'm pretty shocked at their scoreline against the French tonight, not what I'd have expected based on two good wins previously. The Argie line-up does look somewhat experimental? But even if that is the case then such a lack of depth could cause them serious problems...

That game Argentine play with a "B" team, except Felipe Contempomi (who is is near retirement and will not play TRC) all players are rookies or beginners.
All our best players are concentrated in a high performance center in Pensacola USA.
Thank you.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:France just pooed all over them

that was Argentina B/C side plus Contepomi (note they won the 1st game). the "europeans" will integrate their squad come the quadnation

Wi11 wrote:I'm pretty shocked at their scoreline against the French tonight, not what I'd have expected based on two good wins previously. The Argie line-up does look somewhat experimental? But even if that is the case then such a lack of depth could cause them serious problems...

they have an entire squad of players based in England and France who have been selected for the quad Nations but were rested from the matches with Italy and France. Picking what was effectively a 3rd team, they did pretty well to share the series with France.

While Argentina may not win a match (though I reckon they may sneak a win), just hosting the SANZAR teams will be an achievement. After all in the last 10 years they have played them at home just 4 times.

The Pumas never beat us mate,

The South american Jaguars beat us in 1982.

The team was mainly made up of Argentines but also included players from Brazil, Paraguay, Uruguay and Chile and Spain. In all, eight matches were played of which seven were won by the Springboks and one was won by the Jaguars, who were on all occasions captained by Hugo Porta of Argentina. The Jaguars one victory came at Bloemfontein in 1982. In 2011, they were revived as CONSUR XV, playing one match against Argentina, in San Juan.

biltongbek

Do we know how many players came from outside Argentina for the test side... I'd be impressed if it was more than 1.

Back then the Argentinians were very very strong. There would be no honour in losing to them back in the 80s.

I have a sneaking suspicion that Argentina will do better than what most people think, which is pretty much lose heavily every single match.

This for a couple of reasons. Isolate a game between Argentina and the big SH 3 and the scoreline doesn't look good. Add in some other 4N games around that which might well offer the temptation of resting players or rotating because of injuries and a punishing travel schedule (only the ABs come close to playing near Buenos Aires, the main transport hub).

I'm not saying Argentina will win the thing as particularly away they will find it difficult to travel, but the 2nd test against Ireland showed that if one team is not 100 per cent focused and the other team is, upsets are possible.

Argentina are a bit of an unknown quantity in my opinion. The additional revenue stream from the Championship will have allowed them to invest more in the squad preparation than they have previously. Plus they have a guaranteed run of 6 games where they can pick their best squad and try and progress as the tournament goes on. Most of their home games previously have been relatively scratch sides, often varying from one match to the next so it's hard to draw a comparison. Despite this they still kept within 6 points of New Zealand the last time any of the SANZAR teams went there (2006). I wouldn't be at all surprised if Argentina win one or more of their home games. I'd put them on a par with us (England), France, Wales and Ireland. While it's not uncommon we'd all be disappointed to lose 3 in a row at home even to Aus, SA and NZ and the norm (aside from the Welsh with their mental block) is to win one against SA or Aus.

biltongbek wrote:The Pumas never beat us mate,

The South american Jaguars beat us in 1982.

The team was mainly made up of Argentines but also included players from Brazil, Paraguay, Uruguay and Chile and Spain. In all, eight matches were played of which seven were won by the Springboks and one was won by the Jaguars, who were on all occasions captained by Hugo Porta of Argentina. The Jaguars one victory came at Bloemfontein in 1982. In 2011, they were revived as CONSUR XV, playing one match against Argentina, in San Juan.

Remember the Apartheid?
Argentina could not play against South Africa officially because the international blockade. That's why they played with a different name.
Additional note: Spain is not South America, is Europe, would have been impossible for Spanish players.

Argie, that's what it says on WIKI, I quoted it from there.

WIKI

I think that they will get beat maybe lose them all but will not be beaten by cricket scores.

As arie fan said there isn't anyteam they could add that would have been better.

When you look at their players over the last couple of years they are getting much more strenght and they will give Aus a though home game.

I think they should aim for 6 points 1w and 2lbp but be happy with 3lbp

They didn't do to bad against NZ in the world cup to be far. People expected a much easier game. As Scotland have shown if it becomes an arm wrestle then it could go either way

I think they are a very hard side to beat at home and whilst I think they'll come last they'll give their opposition a real good hurry up in one or two games. They'll only improve and I hope they do so quickly. The gap between the others and Argentina I feel is bigger than Italy and the other 6N sides and Italy haven't improved anywhere near as much as I'd like to have seen.

I am really looking forward to the championship! It will be rude awakening for Argentina i suspect. After their crushing to the French the other day, they are going from the frying pan into the fire.

Personally, i'm interested in what that will do to them post Championship. It'll make them, or break them is my (un-expert!) opinion. If they take it on the chin and build, they will ahve such a trial that they'll jsut go from strenght to strenght and be pushing top 5 IRB world in only a handful of years. If it goes the other way, they'll go through dark times - and that would be a shame for overall world rugby.

I think Argentina will win some games maybe not this year but in the next couple and for their longer term development it must be good

Well tihnk about what it will do for them come even this year's AI's

6 matches against the three top teams every year from now on, they get used to the pace and intensity, it will be much easier for them in the AI's

Won't take long for them to improve.

biltongbek wrote:Well tihnk about what it will do for them come even this year's AI's

6 matches against the three top teams every year from now on, they get used to the pace and intensity, it will be much easier for them in the AI's

Won't take long for them to improve.

+1

They might give up TBP in their away legs but back in Argentina they will be like men possessed. We're talking about giving a country that has never had its national team together for more than a couple of weeks at any time, a longer window to practice together and more regular game time. They won't be like Italy (whipping boys for too many years), give them 4 years and we will all regret what we allowed them to become.

I think this will be very messy. The Argentina domestic game is amateur. While nearly all their professionals play in Europe. So basically their players will be flogged all through the Northern Hemisphere season, most of them are based in France.

You just wonder how many of them will end up losing their jobs because the Top 14 starts at the end of august an so does the 4 Nations. How long before the French clubs start telling the Argentinian players, "Argentina or your club"? One or the other. you know what happened with Henson.

Looking at the current Argentina squad 29 of them play in France, 8 in England, and 1 in Scotland.

biltongbek wrote:Well tihnk about what it will do for them come even this year's AI's

6 matches against the three top teams every year from now on, they get used to the pace and intensity, it will be much easier for them in the AI's

Won't take long for them to improve.

How did 6 tests in a season against the sanzars work out for Wales?
Apparently it just tried them out.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Well tihnk about what it will do for them come even this year's AI's

6 matches against the three top teams every year from now on, they get used to the pace and intensity, it will be much easier for them in the AI's

Won't take long for them to improve.

How did 6 tests in a season against the sanzars work out for Wales?
Apparently it just tried them out.

It worked out really well, we got used to playing against World class players and when it came to playing weaker teams in the northern Hemisphere 6 Nations we found our selves able to beat them. Playing against the best battle hardens you. Look at Scotland, andy Robinson has gone on record saying they want to play more Tier B countries, did it help them in the World Cup and 6 Nations? Now look at Wales who play the Sanzar teams every chance they get.

Shifty wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Well tihnk about what it will do for them come even this year's AI's

6 matches against the three top teams every year from now on, they get used to the pace and intensity, it will be much easier for them in the AI's

Won't take long for them to improve.

How did 6 tests in a season against the sanzars work out for Wales?
Apparently it just tried them out.

It worked out really well, we got used to playing against World class players and when it came to playing weaker teams in the northern Hemisphere 6 Nations we found our selves able to beat them. Playing against the best battle hardens you. Look at Scotland, andy Robinson has gone on record saying they want to play more Tier B countries, did it help them in the World Cup and 6 Nations? Now look at Wales who play the Sanzar teams every chance they get.

Wales started out losing by a kick that wasnt given, then finished losing by a "homer" ref. Doesnt seem much of an improvement to me.

My point was mainly due to the tournament they find themselves in. These are not the usual one offs the pumas are used to and not playing their full team recently was plain dumb. Means they come into the 4N fresh.
The other 3 will make sure they are not the first to lose to argie and if they drop their first match or two theyre gone and theyll be playing for pride. The 4N isnt a place to play for pride. At best they might beat oz at home and the henry influence will be interesting

Shifty
Great point about the Puma players, that the French clubs hold the key to their future development as a top filght international team. I also cannot imagine that their French paymasters are going to be happy losing some of their key players for August and September and maybe through injury for even longer.

One does not simply beat Argentina in Argentina!

Winning over there will be tough, but NZ/RSA/Aus should do it. If they have an off day then things will be interesting.

can't wait for the tournament to start

I think its wonderful they are joining.
Welcome to Argie and their fans.
I hope we give you a beating for the next 60 years (then I'll be dead) but that you can put Aus and SA to the Sword.
I know from my bro who travelled there that there is a fairly big rugby following. Hopefully it can become professional and that some players can stay in Arg rather than move to Europe. On the other hand this will probably encourage France and England to fill those vacancies with more Kiwis so dang catch 22

There is no doubt the Argentines will be the whipping boys for years to come but they will gain so much experience from this tournament that I think within 2 or 3 seasons they will start to challenge the likes of England and France in ways they haven't before. By 2015 they will be a different side.

They can challenge England and France all they want, Wales are dominating European rugby at a national level and Ireland are dominating at club level. Thats who you should be talking about.

The shops along Avenida Florida, while packed with football merch, definitely have a fair few Puma shirts (with the Visa logo-I've never seen them on sale outside Argentina so there must be some reason why) so the interest is definitely there. I was there in 2010 though so pre 07 it was probably a vastly different story.

Dead right about the French clubs. I can imagine a fair old scrap in the years to come.

I see Argintina a lot like Italy in the 6 Nations.

Entry has come to late, as the great side of 07 are mostly retiring, same happened Italy.

We expect them to improve but Italy haven't at the rate we wanted, and I don't think Argentina will either.

It came to the point where Italy decided players playing for Forgien teams wasn't helping, and have gotten entrance of 2 Clubs into the Pro 12. has to be seen if this makes an improvement.

Have to say I see the exact same thing happening Argentina, they wouldn't improve as quickly as hoped (will still beat some North Hemp teams) but won't make impact in 4 nations.

Few years time the Argentine Rugby Union will decide its had enough of battling French clubs for player release (and when it gets the players they are wrecked) that it has to Create some Super Cubs Prob about 3, to keep players in Argintina and fresh.

For that it will have to semi professionalise its domestic league (something they haven't wanted to do) and have these feed into the super teams (fully professional)

I hope that they are alraedy creating regional teams to play each other at the end of the domestic season, so they are ready to be promoted when they decide they want their players playing in Argentina.

O, Mr Kinshu, me thinks Argentina will improve a lot, and quicker than any of us expect.

Artful_Dodger wrote:They can challenge England and France all they want, Wales are dominating European rugby at a national level and Ireland are dominating at club level. Thats who you should be talking about.

I think you may wish to review the meaning of the word dominate. Winning one grandslam with some narrow margins is hardly dominating. Its not like you would say Aus dominated Wales in the last series would you.

nganboy wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:They can challenge England and France all they want, Wales are dominating European rugby at a national level and Ireland are dominating at club level. Thats who you should be talking about.

I think you may wish to review the meaning of the word dominate. Winning one grandslam with some narrow margins is hardly dominating. Its not like you would say Aus dominated Wales in the last series would you.

I was going to call him on in that but then realised they have won the last 7 on the bounce vs 6Ns opposition (6 in tournament. Only one big win mind. So about the same level of dominance Aus have had over them in the last 12 months.

I think most people take for granted the fact Argentina will improve, it's a question of by how much and by when.

Is there another question though - what affect will this have on the original Trination teams. People are quick to say they're used to never having easy games and the fact this has conditioned them to play at a higher level more of the time.

Could playing Argentina dull the other sides slightly, given it will undoubtedly be a drop in standards. No disrespect to Argentina.

I actually think they;re better than people think and I could see their pack giving Australia's a very close game already if they're on form.

Artful_Dodger wrote:They can challenge England and France all they want, Wales are dominating European rugby at a national level and Ireland are dominating at club level. Thats who you should be talking about.

and they are behind england and france in the rankings...as for ireland dominating club rugby, how is that relevant?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Wales started out losing by a kick that wasnt given, then finished losing by a "homer" ref. Doesnt seem much of an improvement to me.

Look at the big picture and look at Wales in a season.

Wales got to the semi final of a world cup, won a grand slam, the Blues got to the heinaken cup quarters and the Ospreys won the Rabo, our U20 team came third in the world cup and inflicted New Zealands first ever loss on them.

Wales have had a wonderful year overall. We won more than our fair share and won when we really needed too.

Won when we really needed to? So the RWC and the seemingly endless stream of games against Australia, Wales didn't need to win those?

Wales improved their efforts in the 6N. The next step is to improve their performance against the SH big 3. This autumn will tell if they've learnt anything Down Under.

Disagree with that Shifty. You really needed to win at least once in three cracks to get that SH monkey off your backs. You really needed to do that. I'd always count a RWC semi as a "need to" as well.

Kudos for the Rabo and the U20s but the Welsh national team are far from the finished article.

dallym wrote:One does not simply beat Argentina in Argentina!

Winning over there will be tough, but NZ/RSA/Aus should do it. If they have an off day then things will be interesting.

can't wait for the tournament to start

That is simply no longer the case Argentina rarely win a series on their home soil, they only manage it during a Lions year when most countries have a lot of first team players missing.

sensisball wrote:Shifty
Great point about the Puma players, that the French clubs hold the key to their future development as a top filght international team. I also cannot imagine that their French paymasters are going to be happy losing some of their key players for August and September and maybe through injury for even longer.

I found a fantastic example of my point.

Montpellier have 6 players in the Argentina squad.
Juan Figallo Prop
Maximiliano Bustos Prop
Agustín Creevy Hooker
Santiago Fernández Fly-half
Martín Bustos Moyano Wing
Lucas González Amorosino Fullback

The French season generally starts in the third week of August, this season the 2011/2012 season it started on the 26th.

Argentinas 4 nations games to be played on the 18th August, 25th August, September 8th, Setpember 15th, Saturday 29th, October 6th, So they will miss the start of the season then will likely be away again in November when Argentina are touring the northern hemisphere for the November series.

Basically any club employing a Argentinian international will not see them for the first 3 months of the season.

Montpellier are not alone Racing Métro have Alvaro Galindo, Juan Pablo Orlandi, Juan Martín Hernández, Juan José Imhoff.

Stade Français have Martín Rodríguez, Felipe Contepomi, Rodrigo Roncero, Francisco Tetaz Chaparro etc.

Clearly whats going to happen is the French clubs will say to the players, look you can't be away from us this much, and the National Union will have no way of paying the players week to week at a club as their amateur so all that is going to happen like in the Pacific Islands is the players will decline to play for Argentina.

Look at it, Argentina will probably base themselves in France, but fly to South America for "home" games and to Africa, and Ocenia for the "away" games in between playing for French clubs on their weekends off. I feel sorry for those players, jet lagged to death!

I can't see how Argentina won't field their best players.

It would have been part of the contract in joining the 3N sides to form the new competition. They won't stand for a 2nd string ARG side as no one wants to see 80-0 drubbings in "the toughest rugby competition in the world". It was probably one of the major reasons why they didn't get in earlier... something would have had to change to gain inclusion.

Argentina will get a lot of money from the 4N now... they will be able to payoff their players clubs.

fa0019 wrote:I can't see how Argentina won't field their best players.

It would have been part of the contract in joining the 3N sides to form the new competition. They won't stand for a 2nd string ARG side as no one wants to see 80-0 drubbings in "the toughest rugby competition in the world". It was probably one of the major reasons why they didn't get in earlier... something would have had to change to gain inclusion.

Argentina will get a lot of money from the 4N now... they will be able to payoff their players clubs.

If you were a coach and your job depended on results, in a league any team can easily get relegated from would you be happy being the Montpellier coach? Knowing your season starts at the end of August but if your lucky you "might" have your front row play for you for the final 3 weeks in October and then December, after travelling from France to Argentina for home games and Africa and Oceania for away games?

Personally I would not renew their contracts, Montpellier basically lose their front row.

It's great Argentina have been included but they face a much more difficult challenge than Italy did when they joined the 5 Nations.
I think it's possible we will se a lot less Argentina players in France buy maybe they will goto South Africa and Australia instead?

I think AUS is the only place where they may find a welcome home.

SA & NZ are struggling to contain all their talent within 5 teams. Give up a jersey to a foreigner... i.e. hamper the boks and benefit the opposition. Not likely unless there is a particular positional deficiency.

The Rebels, Force & Waratahs may welcome some decent front five players for once.

disneychilly wrote:Disagree with that Shifty. You really needed to win at least once in three cracks to get that SH monkey off your backs. You really needed to do that. I'd always count a RWC semi as a "need to" as well.

Especially against another NH team that they are apparently dominating...

I'm not sure the pertinent question is which Super XV side(s) would welcome a few Argentinians. Perhaps more relevant is whether Murdoch et al. would welcome the increased market that would come with an expanded Super XVI/XVIII competition.

The Super XV is out of control already and judging by the viewer numbers it is most likely to expand anyway.

Is there space to accomodate new teams?

Could the Southern Kings (South Africa), Buenos Aires and Tucuman be added?

The way rugby is going though you may well see the UAE having teams put in it before Argentina!