Newcastle v Saracens

First topic message reminder :

A critical game for bot sides as Falcons seek to maintain the pressure at the bottom of the table, and Sarries seek to gain the home semi final that for much of the season has looked all but guaranteed.

Falcons have been in good form, but Sarries reacted well to the two defeats to Quins and Clermont with a win last weekend. Normally a Friday night trip up north is one to induce slight worries, but Sarries hammered Sale a month or so ago after a Friday trip to the NW.



Sarries team announced, two changes with Farrell and Short replacing Hodgson and Michael Tagi:

Saracens team vs Newcastle Falcons

15 Alex Goode
14 David Strettle
13 Chris Wyles
12 Brad Barritt
11 James Short
10 Owen Farrell
9 Neil de Kock
1 Rhys Gill
2 Schalk Brits
3 Matt Stevens
4 Steve Borthwick ©
5 George Kruis
6 Jackson Wray
7 Will Fraser
8 Ernst Joubert

16 Jamie George
17 Mako Vunipola
18 Carlos Nieto
19 Mouritz Botha
20 Justin Melck
21 Richard Wigglesworth
22 Charlie Hodgson
23 Michael Tagicakibau

Falcons meanwhile are unchanged following victory at Gloucester. Golding, Vickers and Murray will be looking to put what has been a fragile Sarries front row recently under pressure.

Newcastle: 15 Greg Goosen, 14 Corne Uys, 13 Jamie Helleur, 12 James Fitzpatrick, 11 Ryan Shortland, 10 Jimmy Gopperth, 9 Peter Stringer, 1 Jonny Golding, 2 Rob Vickers, 3 Euan Murray, 4 James Hudson, 5 Tim Swinson, 6 Ally Hogg, 7 Will Welch, 8 Adam Balding

Replacements: 16 Matt Thompson, 17 Grant Shiells, 18 James Hall, 19 James Goode, 20 Taiasina Tu’ifua, 21 Mark Wilson, 22 Chris Pilgrim, 23 Tom Catterick

Well that game pretty much brought English rugby into disrepute - I think both sides should be embarrassed by their performances.

Newcastle have to go (and will). They have a good owner, a good new Director of Rugby, and they'll be back, hopefully with some more local lads and more ambition to actually play rugby.

As for Sarries, I hope they are heavily beaten by Tigers (I think they will be), and they then spend the summer having a rethink about how they want to play rugby. To start with the coaching staff should be forced to sit through that game, and then the Quins - Tigers game. They then need to stop slowing the game down, stop kicking, and find an attacking game (I really think serious questions have to be asked about Farrell senior - thank goodness he won't be working with England).

It looks like that was by far the worst game of the weekend, but I'm greatful for Quins and Tigers for restoring my faith in English club rugby after that debacle.

What was the Sarries Nexcastle score?

Cannot remember.

Blanked from my mind.

Look at the Beeb results page and all I see is white space.

A ruling needs to be brought in for next season that any teams that play such boring, negative, stodgy depressing anti-rugby should be docked points.

On a serious notes wins should be three points and try bp wins kept at five points, that would hopefully kick more teams in to actually playing.

Nah.

There will always be poor quality matches - some boring some not. The biggest thing that will force teams with the talent to play differently to actually do it will be defeats.

Sarries have just lost 3 from 4 to put what was a certain home semi almost out of reach, and a humiliating exit from the HC. If they choose not to adapt they will continue to suffer the consequences.

True true. Next season will be very interesting for a number of teams.

yappysnap wrote:A ruling needs to be brought in for next season that any teams that play such boring, negative, stodgy depressing anti-rugby should be docked points.

On a serious notes wins should be three points and try bp wins kept at five points, that would hopefully kick more teams in to actually playing.

I don't agree. The problem (for me) was the poor execution not the tactics. However I get entertainment from rugby, not expect rugby to be entertaining (if that makes any sense whatsoever )

The tactics were horrible - even if they had been well executed it will still have alienated the vast majority of fans. If we see more games like that I'd support marking anywhere on the pitch.

Meh...what a game...

We are down...and as i have said for 2 seasons now...please get rid of Gopperth!!!

He is appalling!

yappysnap wrote:A ruling needs to be brought in for next season that any teams that play such boring, negative, stodgy depressing anti-rugby should be docked points.

On a serious notes wins should be three points and try bp wins kept at five points, that would hopefully kick more teams in to actually playing.

Both teams have been doing it all season, how SAracens have got away with it is beyond me.

The match at The Stoop put just how poor Friday's match was into perspective.

I see now Tigers have started playing basketball that functional smart winning rugby is ruining the game after all.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:I see now Tigers have started playing basketball that functional smart winning rugby is ruining the game after all.

Blimey, what does that mean in English?

Yappysnap it's still all about winning the big games. Quins are still pretty inconsistent in this area. Still horrific records against Sarries and Leicester.

Good wins vs Toulouse away and Saracens at Wembley but flattering to deceive against the likes of Connacht,Saracens at Twickenham and Leicester at the Stoop.

The big question: can Quins beat their two bogey sides - Saracens and Leicester to pick up the AP title? Unlikely in my opinion.

Equo Troiano

It's difficult to be complimentary of Leicester when you're around because I wouldn't want your head to explode.

Though fair play to Leicester they look like favourites to pick up the AP title as things stand. Please don't be too smug.

Leicester are the form side at the moment but Saracens are IMO the one side that can stop them.

Leicester will start as favourites of course but the Leicester vs Saracens have mostly been very close in the last 3 seasons bar one obvious exception.

Leicester will start as favourites of course but the Leicester vs Saracens have mostly been very close in the last 3 seasons bar one obvious exception

Noteable difference this time will be that Sarries will be missing more players. Can they come to Welford Rd without the likes of Brown, Burger and Saull and get parity at the breakdown? We've seen the big impact those injuries have had on the 'wolf pack' defence this season so that will no longer be the easy go to weapon it was last year. Tigers will win the scrummage battle and the lineout will more than likely be equal and heavilly contested. A tough game but unless Sarries start moving the ball with the confidence they showed against the Ospreys and the young backrowers start upping their kick chase then I can't see them posing the same threat as last season.

beshocked wrote:Leicester vs Saracens have mostly been very close in the last 3 seasons bar one obvious exception.

I think that one game scared the Sarries management so much that they banned the team from attacking for the rest of the season. Rather than looking at the plethora of tries your boys scored, they looked at the ones they conceded.

Not sure what is more nerve-racking - watching a team who say "ah go on. you can have a few tries cos we will score more" or a team that seems to be going "we will grind this out, yes we will"

I guess one style is all cavalry charges, and the other trench warfare.

Sam I agree.

As I said Leicester will obviously be favourites. On the other hand Saracens do have an immense away record and won't be worried about going to WR. If anything Saracens are more comfortable away from home.

The young guns like Wray,Fraser and Kruis like running with the ball in hand. IMO they are more athletic than the likes of Burger and Brown. I think they have made a positive impact.

Not convinced Leicester will win the lineout battle - Saracen's lineout is one of the best around. One of the only aspects that has continued to function properly even against Clermont and Quins.

I know you are probably sick of me mentioning it but the backrow involved in that big win at WR for Sarries was - Wray,Fraser,Joubert. The backrow which would likely start against Leicester.

To beat Leicester we'll need take risks, play with at a much higher intensity and level than we had previously.

beshocked wrote:

It's difficult to be complimentary of Leicester when you're around because I wouldn't want your head to explode.

Though fair play to Leicester they look like favourites to pick up the AP title as things stand. Please don't be too smug.

And of course, being smug was something you could never have been accused of.... Until about 4 to 6 weeks ago of course, as Leicester first stalked and then trampled SAracens on their way to 2nd spot.

Lets be honest, ALL the rhetoric was coming from you until you realised that actually, things might not necessarily go your way....

Although watching SAracens play would bring tears to a glass eye, you may or may not have seen on another thread where I have given SAracens full credit for their place in the league and have openly stated that home or away, I think that SAracens will be tough to break down. So please don't ever accuse me of being smug or one-eyed, because if I am, I learnt it from you. Believe it.

Good luck to ALL teams in the play-offs.

LondonTiger wrote:

beshocked wrote:Leicester vs Saracens have mostly been very close in the last 3 seasons bar one obvious exception.

I think that one game scared the Sarries management so much that they banned the team from attacking for the rest of the season. Rather than looking at the plethora of tries your boys scored, they looked at the ones they conceded.

Not sure what is more nerve-racking - watching a team who say "ah go on. you can have a few tries cos we will score more" or a team that seems to be going "we will grind this out, yes we will"

I guess one style is all cavalry charges, and the other trench warfare.

Saracens have been very strange. I mean it's weird going to Edgely Park and putting 45 points past Sale too - scoring 5 tries. Then we watch the woeful attack vs Quins,Clermont and Newcastle.

I just say to myself - why don't Saracens actually try and attack in a sensible manner! We know they can.

The Ospreys game at Wembley showed it too but after 50 minutes we shut up shop.

LondonTiger if you score lots of tries there of course a higher chance you'll concede some.

I do blame Tigers for our conservative approach if we had won that 2009/10 GP Final.......

We played some super stuff that day but lost, we played boring the year after but won.

Equo Troiano wrote:

beshocked wrote:

It's difficult to be complimentary of Leicester when you're around because I wouldn't want your head to explode.

Though fair play to Leicester they look like favourites to pick up the AP title as things stand. Please don't be too smug.

And of course, being smug was something you could never have been accused of.... Until about 4 to 6 weeks ago of course, as Leicester first stalked and then trampled SAracens on their way to 2nd spot.

Lets be honest, ALL the rhetoric was coming from you until you realised that actually, things might not necessarily go your way....

Although watching SAracens play would bring tears to a glass eye, you may or may not have seen on another thread where I have given SAracens full credit for their place in the league and have openly stated that home or away, I think that SAracens will be tough to break down. So please don't ever accuse me of being smug or one-eyed, because if I am, I learnt it from you. Believe it.

Good luck to ALL teams in the play-offs.

I am not even going to go into what's wrong with this comment. I wouldn't say you trampled Saracens.

Good luck as well though I don't think Leicester will need it. Leicester are deservedly the favourites.

I will admit that you were right about Leicester getting the home semi. I was wrong.

No, they didn't trample SAracens, although they did quite effectively stop them from playing their own game.

Stopping SAracens 'playing' being something of a contradiction in terms....

Anyway, they certainly have trampled all other comers, in fact I think only LI have come close to beating them in the last 7 weeks or so. The home semi-final is not secure yet, although it has to be said that whilst Cockerill and Co will not be underestimating Bath, us supporters can be justifyably confident of a result that will secure at least second spot (given current form of course). Quins go to Sale don't they? I'd fancy Quins for that, but Sale wont be giving in too easily. Its going to be close in terms of points between Quins & Tigers come the end.

24/9/11 Tigers 25 - Sarries 50
Number of players who started likerly to start a play-off semi: Tigers 3, Sarries 12

19/2/12 Saracens 19 - Tigers 20
Number of players who started likerly to start a play-off semi: Sarries 5, Tigers 10.


Not sure you can read too much into either match.

beshocked wrote:Yappysnap it's still all about winning the big games. Quins are still pretty inconsistent in this area. Still horrific records against Sarries and Leicester.

Good wins vs Toulouse away and Saracens at Wembley but flattering to deceive against the likes of Connacht,Saracens at Twickenham and Leicester at the Stoop.

The big question: can Quins beat their two bogey sides - Saracens and Leicester to pick up the AP title? Unlikely in my opinion.

In all honesty i'd take a loss like we suffered on Sat over a win like yours at Falcons most days of the week except finals! And I think most other fans would too.

Rugby is meant to be entertaining and Quins style of play to me is the most entertaining you can watch, watching the high skills shown by Quins and Tigers made me very happy which was the opposite of the Falcons game. If Quins stopped being entertaining and just bored me every game then what is the point in watching them other then just to record whether they've won or lost, I can't see how you would get much enjoyment out of that?

Saracens are a business and go out to win any way they can as any win is better then a loss from a business perspective. But if you forget about the entertainment side of things then you can have all the wins in the world but how many fans will you have, especially if you do then lose playing that gameplan?

yappysnap wrote:

beshocked wrote:Yappysnap it's still all about winning the big games. Quins are still pretty inconsistent in this area. Still horrific records against Sarries and Leicester.

Good wins vs Toulouse away and Saracens at Wembley but flattering to deceive against the likes of Connacht,Saracens at Twickenham and Leicester at the Stoop.

The big question: can Quins beat their two bogey sides - Saracens and Leicester to pick up the AP title? Unlikely in my opinion.

In all honesty i'd take a loss like we suffered on Sat over a win like yours at Falcons most days of the week except finals! And I think most other fans would too.

Rugby is meant to be entertaining and Quins style of play to me is the most entertaining you can watch, watching the high skills shown by Quins and Tigers made me very happy which was the opposite of the Falcons game. If Quins stopped being entertaining and just bored me every game then what is the point in watching them other then just to record whether they've won or lost, I can't see how you would get much enjoyment out of that?

Saracens are a business and go out to win any way they can as any win is better then a loss from a business perspective. But if you forget about the entertainment side of things then you can have all the wins in the world but how many fans will you have, especially if you do then lose playing that gameplan?

And therein lies Saracens biggest problem. They are effective at what they do and get results which means outsiders may respect and grudgingly admire them, but they are not going to put their hands in their pockets to watch them play on a regular basis. Whilst one off Wembley excursions will bring in punters on the day, it will not extend the fan base, as people want to be entertained, and as a rule, watching Saracens generally does not provide much entertainment. At some point in the future, they may reach a tipping point where they have to decide whether or not the current course being steered by the club is the correct one for them or not.

Equo Troiano you can't have it both ways.

You can't gloat about "trampling" us when you blatantly didn't - a drop goal in about the 85th minute to win the game is not that.

I actually think Saracens kicked the ball less that day than usual. It was very touch and go.

Saracens have lost the big games recently by very small margins - games they should have won.

Yappysnap maybe you would but the reality is you got 0 points we got 4. You lost at home against one of your biggest bogey sides yet again.

You could only draw with Newcastle - playing much more exciting rugby.

I don't get much enjoyment out of it but Saracens are still fighting for the AP title whereas a teams like Gloucester and London Irish who favour style over substance probably won't have HC rugby.

Of course I want Saracens to change. Of course they are boring to watch. I have to take some positives - at least they win most of the time.

The losses to Quins,Clermont and Leicester were far worse.

A boring loss is far worse than a boring win.



London Tiger those stats don't really tell all the facts. E.g. Wray and Fraser might well start a playoff semi but they aren't normally our best backrowers.

I'm glad you understood Ozzy, I was a little worried I didn't actually make any sense.

I agree they're going to need to change, I think a lot of people had expected it to be this season as they had the AP title and had commented on the fact their gameplan didn't work in Europe.

But instead all we see is more defensive work. This 'wolfpack' (which I do respect) and caterpillar rucks (which I loathe). No inclination to attack at all.

They have such attacking potential as well, that's what really gets me.

beshocked wrote:Yappysnap it's still all about winning the big games. Quins are still pretty inconsistent in this area. Still horrific records against Sarries and Leicester.

Good wins vs Toulouse away and Saracens at Wembley but flattering to deceive against the likes of Connacht,Saracens at Twickenham and Leicester at the Stoop.

The big question: can Quins beat their two bogey sides - Saracens and Leicester to pick up the AP title? Unlikely in my opinion.

As long as we beat Sale we'll only have to beat one of you

But instead all we see is more defensive work. This 'wolfpack' (which I do respect)

I think the wolf pack is lacking it's teeth at the minute with Burger and Brown out injured. Burger is a real animal in defence and his leadership of the swarming Sarries defence was key to their title win last season. I think Sarries know they have lost that edge to pile pressure on and so are looking to shut games down and force an arm a forwards arm wrestle and kicking contest as they have a fair chance at winning those. That tactic has won them a lot of games this season but it's lost them some of the bigger ones as well. They need a 13 who will get them over the gainline and a front row that can give them some power in the scrums and then Hodgson should have an easy time of it.

Then again it's largely an international backline that seems poorly organised. Who's the backs coach...?

beshocked wrote:Yappysnap it's still all about winning the big games. Quins are still pretty inconsistent in this area. Still horrific records against Sarries and Leicester.

Good wins vs Toulouse away and Saracens at Wembley but flattering to deceive against the likes of Connacht,Saracens at Twickenham and Leicester at the Stoop.

The big question: can Quins beat their two bogey sides - Saracens and Leicester to pick up the AP title? Unlikely in my opinion.

Equo Troiano

It's difficult to be complimentary of Leicester when you're around because I wouldn't want your head to explode.

Though fair play to Leicester they look like favourites to pick up the AP title as things stand. Please don't be too smug.

Leicester are the form side at the moment but Saracens are IMO the one side that can stop them.

Leicester will start as favourites of course but the Leicester vs Saracens have mostly been very close in the last 3 seasons bar one obvious exception.

I still think we can beat Tigers. Definitely not favourites at all, but in a AP final vs Leicester, our best team can beat Tigers' best team but Evans NEEDS to play the full 80

beshocked wrote:Equo Troiano you can't have it both ways.

You can't gloat about "trampling" us when you blatantly didn't - a drop goal in about the 85th minute to win the game is not that.

I actually think Saracens kicked the ball less that day than usual. It was very touch and go.

Saracens have lost the big games recently by very small margins - games they should have won.

Yappysnap maybe you would but the reality is you got 0 points we got 4. You lost at home against one of your biggest bogey sides yet again.

You could only draw with Newcastle - playing much more exciting rugby.

I don't get much enjoyment out of it but Saracens are still fighting for the AP title whereas a teams like Gloucester and London Irish who favour style over substance probably won't have HC rugby.

Of course I want Saracens to change. Of course they are boring to watch. I have to take some positives - at least they win most of the time.

The losses to Quins,Clermont and Leicester were far worse.

A boring loss is far worse than a boring win.



London Tiger those stats don't really tell all the facts. E.g. Wray and Fraser might well start a playoff semi but they aren't normally our best backrowers.

I actually recinded and admitted that they did not trample SAracens. I said they'd stopped them playing, which is a contradiction in terms with regards to SAracens.

Should have won - but didn't. Newcastle could have been top of the table if they'd won all their matches, but they, er, didn't...

Watching Friday's game reminded me of a comment i'd made some months ago now and that was that SAracens winning any trophy is bad for the sport, it certainly isn't a good advert for it. Mind you, Newcastle were no better - on the other hand, they seem likely to be punished for a lack of adventure by being relegated. Its a poor job that teams don't get docked points for negative play, thats all I can say.

Can SAracens change? Or do they even want to? Results would suggest they'll be happy enough to carry on as they are for now, but should they not win this year, surely they'll be thinking they have to do something, because even a team like Falcons were able to work out SAracens game, there's no plan B.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

beshocked wrote:Yappysnap it's still all about winning the big games. Quins are still pretty inconsistent in this area. Still horrific records against Sarries and Leicester.

Good wins vs Toulouse away and Saracens at Wembley but flattering to deceive against the likes of Connacht,Saracens at Twickenham and Leicester at the Stoop.

The big question: can Quins beat their two bogey sides - Saracens and Leicester to pick up the AP title? Unlikely in my opinion.

Equo Troiano

It's difficult to be complimentary of Leicester when you're around because I wouldn't want your head to explode.

Though fair play to Leicester they look like favourites to pick up the AP title as things stand. Please don't be too smug.

Leicester are the form side at the moment but Saracens are IMO the one side that can stop them.

Leicester will start as favourites of course but the Leicester vs Saracens have mostly been very close in the last 3 seasons bar one obvious exception.

I still think we can beat Tigers. Definitely not favourites at all, but in a AP final vs Leicester, our best team can beat Tigers' best team but Evans NEEDS to play the full 80

I think Saturday's result pretty much disproved that since both sides were fielding virtually full strength sides. I concede that Quins weren't up to full compliment, but then Tigers didn't play well for the first 40 minutes. I admire your loyalty, but Tigers still won by 10, with a BP at The Stoop after having been 13 points down. I think Quins offloading game is super, but overall, you'd have to admit that Tigers were overall stronger and will continue to be so for the rest of the season (barring a raft of injuries against Bath and in the semi final).

Equo Troiano wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

beshocked wrote:Yappysnap it's still all about winning the big games. Quins are still pretty inconsistent in this area. Still horrific records against Sarries and Leicester.

Good wins vs Toulouse away and Saracens at Wembley but flattering to deceive against the likes of Connacht,Saracens at Twickenham and Leicester at the Stoop.

The big question: can Quins beat their two bogey sides - Saracens and Leicester to pick up the AP title? Unlikely in my opinion.

Equo Troiano

It's difficult to be complimentary of Leicester when you're around because I wouldn't want your head to explode.

Though fair play to Leicester they look like favourites to pick up the AP title as things stand. Please don't be too smug.

Leicester are the form side at the moment but Saracens are IMO the one side that can stop them.

Leicester will start as favourites of course but the Leicester vs Saracens have mostly been very close in the last 3 seasons bar one obvious exception.

I still think we can beat Tigers. Definitely not favourites at all, but in a AP final vs Leicester, our best team can beat Tigers' best team but Evans NEEDS to play the full 80

I think Saturday's result pretty much disproved that since both sides were fielding virtually full strength sides. I concede that Quins weren't up to full compliment, but then Tigers didn't play well for the first 40 minutes. I admire your loyalty, but Tigers still won by 10, with a BP at The Stoop after having been 13 points down. I think Quins offloading game is super, but overall, you'd have to admit that Tigers were overall stronger and will continue to be so for the rest of the season (barring a raft of injuries against Bath and in the semi final).

Oh, I agree that Leicester were very impressive in coming to win but the match convinced we could at least compete and that is what matters- the rematch will not be the same, small things about how the game begins and reacting to small events. Tigers are rightly favourites but we can play better and I have faith that we will

I still think we can beat Tigers. Definitely not favourites at all, but in a AP final vs Leicester, our best team can beat Tigers' best team but Evans NEEDS to play the full 80

Anyone can beat anyone on their day. Quins were certainly hampered by Evans not being fully fit (Brown's two missed penalty kicks to touch set up the platform for the Tigers first try). Quins still sent out the best side they had available which was virtually full strength and Tigers the same and it was a ding dong battle that could have gone either way. Quins will feel annoyed that they got zero points despite having home advantage and Tigers will feel delighted with the come back and the bonus point victory.

Will it count for anything if they meet in the AP Final? Nope, not a thing.

I am sorry Chequered Jersey but I disagree.

Quins struggle against Leicester - that is a statistical fact.

Only need to look at the AP website.

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/premiership/rugby/harlequins.php?section=4

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/premiership/rugby/leicester_tigers.php?section=4

Quins are a very good side but they are up against it. They have to hope they beat Sale because having to play both Saracens and Leicester to win the AP would make things even harder.

In order to change the head to head we have to start somewhere

I love how such a thread for such a dull game - has so many views and comments.

Chequered Jersey it's all about belief.

I think the mental aspect is not focussed enough in rugby. The tightest matches can be resolved by the team who holds it together.

The sides who in the AP currently show this the most IMO are Exeter,Saracens and Leicester. They never give up and will continue battling to the 80th minute and beyond. These sides are also completely fearless. They don't care a jot who they are playing - they go to win and generally they do.

With more composure the likes of Newcastle,Gloucester,Bath,Treviso and Ospreys would have and should have beaten Saracens on their own patches.

Plundering the away wins is what these teams love particularly.

I feel that Quins have a bit of a mental block. They need to remove this to really progress IMO.

Quins have to show that Leicester can be beaten. They need to develop that hard edge that the likes of Leicester,Saracens and Exeter have.

I would argue that these players showed that hard edge previously under Richards, the wins against Stade being key, and against you guys a few weeks ago. We can't seem to consistently produce it though, but you learn at the top and it's something I hope we build on next year. This year has been a learning experience for Quins and even if we don't win the AP, we can take a lot from it- top sides are not built in one season after all. But belief is important and that's why I can take some solace from Saturday - we don't have to think that Leicester are destined to win the title, they were better than us on Saturday but they didn't look like they were playing in a different league to us by any means and so Quins should be able to go the AP final, if they get there, knowing that tehy have had a successful season no matter what, that they are expected to lose but can win and if they take that mindset the pressure is on Tigers and Sarries not Quins because we have already proven what we have to prove this season. The title would make it so much better but after all the nonsense about how Quins could only compete when other teams had players out in the RWC has quietened down and we are definitely underdogs and that has definitely worked in our favour before

Wrong attitude chequeredjersey.

Don't go into the match expecting to lose. You think Leicester,Sarries and Exeter do that? They don't think they are going to win - they know they will and this pugnacious attitude has served them well.

Leicester are arrogant,cocky,ruthless and brutal. It's what you have to be to be the best. They stroll to opposition's grounds and they score tries for fun. You shouldn't let them do it!

That's why I have every faith in my side Saracens against Leicester - they might not be in great form but they have the belief to beat Leicester. Few sides do.

Quins need to bring the belief they had vs Toulouse,vs Saracens, bring this to the match against Leicester.

Being pleased because you played some pretty rugby is not good enough IMO.

Don't be pleased with the runners up medal. Go for the title.

I said we are expected to lose, not that we expect to lose

Lots of assumption that it will be a Quins v Tigers final.

I admire your acceptance that the better teams will prevail and reach Twickenham.

Equo Troiano when did I say that?

Better teams? Ha! Got to prove that still.

Don't let your ego carry you too far ahead.

In regards to Quins vs Leicester I am talking about in general Quins need to show more belief, not specifically the final.

beshocked wrote:Equo Troiano when did I say that?

Better teams? Ha! Got to prove that still.

Don't let your ego carry you too far ahead.

In regards to Quins vs Leicester I am talking about in general Quins need to show more belief, not specifically the final.

So, you wouldn't say that:

"Quins need to bring the belief they had vs Toulouse,vs Saracens, bring this to the match against Leicester."

was a suggestion that the two would meet in the final?

Okay.....

No you are correct - sanctimonious and smug sum you up better.

I when I say the match vs Leicester I mean whenever Quins ever play Leicester.

It could well be the final who knows.

Saracens are the most boring team on the planet.

Logansrun38 I think Scotland hold that title.

In the AP it has to be Newcastle or Worcester surely? Only need to look at the try scoring stats.

An area wheres Sarries do so well!

Boring team and a terrible advert for the standard of English rugby.

beshocked wrote:Logansrun38 I think Scotland hold that title.

In the AP it has to be Newcastle or Worcester surely? Only need to look at the try scoring stats.

No, I think you'll find (and that most people agree) that its SAracens that hold that title.

Logan if you haven't got anything constructive to say don't say it please. Same with you equo troiano.

logansrun38 wrote:Saracens are the most boring team on the planet.

Can you elaborate on your judgement?

Logansrun, can you then provide your expert opinion on the nine teams that are below the log in the Aviva?

Northampton Saints
Exeter Chiefs
Sale Sharks
Bath Rugby
Gloucester Rugby
London Irish
Worcester Warriors
London Wasps
Newcastle Falcons