Yes, it's....Another Haka Thread!

[Cowshot]

First topic message reminder :

A Maori Theatre Company is performing their version of Shakespeare's Troilus and Cressida at the Globe. Now it's all well and good showing how Bill speaks across Time and Culture to what is innately human in all of us, but is it fair, I ask you, that they should start the performance with a Haka?

Will the audience be able to give a truly critical response to the show if they are stunned into submission for the first ten minutes? Should the audience respond with chorus of "Jerusalem" or link arms and advance on the stage?

Link to article below, for any expats feeling like a touch of home from home

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-17769799

[The Great Aukster]

The IRB only allow those nations who have a haka to perform it. They don't allow any other nation a pre-kick-off ritual nor indeed a response to the haka, and in fact punish them with fines.

Isn't treating one race preferentially to another, normally deemed to be racist?

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

The IRB only allow those nations who have a haka to perform it.

Really? The Aussies used have a bloke sing Walzing Matilda in response to the haka, they only stopped because they decided the guy was a jinx. So as far as I know if you want to do something there's no rule against it.

They don't allow any other nation a pre-kick-off ritual nor indeed a response to the haka, and in fact punish them with fines.

They fine you if you cross half way during the response, not for responding. The French fine was daft admittedly, but you're stretching the truth to breaking point here

Isn't treating one race preferentially to another, normally deemed to be racist?

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Celebrating cultural history with pride and dignity?

Spoiler:

or a cheap cash in that reinforces ideas of the noble savage and racial differentiation?


Yes you too can pay to see Freddie Tuilagi perform his "unique tribal dance" ahead of the game. Includes meal and wine.

Yes and you can go also on Stratford Avon and buying the shakespear tea towel. Or watch the beef eater on London tower or buy a souveneir leprachaun in dublin and a plastic dragon hat in Wales. Is make always some money out of exploit your own culture to the mass public. And for tourist is nice experience to know you are somewhere different and still in a comfort.

So pull out your ears and stand on your head and you could not make yourself look like more a fool with your thoughts peter seabiscuit wheeler.

Who is this masked man? Is it a bird, is it a plane....

Is it a ghost?

[boomeranga]

For Waltzing Matilda, the IRB decided leading up to RWC2003 that everyone could have one song, but if you wanted a second use of official time it had to pass their cultural significance assessment, which Waltzing Matilda failed. The 'outrage' over it reached NSW parliament. The below is part of the debate that took place:

Mr GEORGE (Member for Lismore) [3.44 p.m.]: … I take exception to his comments about hairdressers during a very important debate about Waltzing Matilda. I have a sister who owns a very successful hairdressing salon. Has the honourable member for Murray-Darling looked at himself in the mirror lately?

Mr Ashton: When did your hair start to go grey?

Mr GEORGE: I don't have to go and get mine dyed, like you do.

Mr SPEAKER: Order!

Our best and brightest at work: Linky - Parliament, Waltzing Matilda and RWC

[mystiroakey]

yes its a miteyghost

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

For Waltzing Matilda, the IRB decided leading up to RWC2003 that everyone could have one song, but if you wanted a second use of official time it had to pass their cultural significance assessment, which Waltzing Matilda failed. The 'outrage' over it reached NSW parliament. The below is part of the debate that took place:

Mr GEORGE (Member for Lismore) [3.44 p.m.]: … I take exception to his comments about hairdressers during a very important debate about Waltzing Matilda. I have a sister who owns a very successful hairdressing salon. Has the honourable member for Murray-Darling looked at himself in the mirror lately?

Mr Ashton: When did your hair start to go grey?

Mr GEORGE: I don't have to go and get mine dyed, like you do.

Mr SPEAKER: Order!

Our best and brightest at work: Linky - Parliament, Waltzing Matilda and RWC

OK, the IRB have lost the plot.

I mean of course a song about a bloke who runs away with a sheep* and drowns himself when it looks like he's going to be caught is very Australian




*Yes I know he killed the sheep and was stealing it to eat, but it's funnier if you don't mention that bit

[eirebilly]

[The Great Aukster]

OK, the IRB have lost the plot.

... but are they being racist?

[gregortree]

no, just stupid

[Guest]

no, just stupid

I'd second that.

Being called racist is a big call though. If anything, they're allowing a display of Maori/NZ culture whilst not disadvantaging another to any great extent. The rule is, don't cross the halfway line, that's not too hard to obey now is it? Any fines issued are a bit silly/petty and the amounts thankfully equate to a tickle of the feet.

Mystir...miteyghost

[The Great Aukster]

For Waltzing Matilda, the IRB decided leading up to RWC2003 that everyone could have one song, but if you wanted a second use of official time it had to pass their cultural significance assessment, which Waltzing Matilda failed. The 'outrage' over it reached NSW parliament.

The issue is that bastion of cultural sensitivity - the IRB, are discriminating between nations about what is culturally significant to them! Who has given them this right? Discrimination such as this in any other walk of life could at the very best be seen as favouritism, so is it right that the IRB persist in showing such partiality?

[gregortree]

OMG, now I get it !
One of you is Sapolu exiled from Twitter.

[aucklandlaurie]

Perhaps people let the cultural aspects of the haka distract them,wasnt it Clive Woodward that treated it as a motivational team for his team back around the early 2000s,bit like how some goal kicking coaches spend a lot of time in teaching kickers to take the energy out of a hostile crowd,and adapt it for your own use?

[mystiroakey]

For Waltzing Matilda, the IRB decided leading up to RWC2003 that everyone could have one song, but if you wanted a second use of official time it had to pass their cultural significance assessment, which Waltzing Matilda failed. The 'outrage' over it reached NSW parliament.

The issue is that bastion of cultural sensitivity - the IRB, are discriminating between nations about what is culturally significant to them! Who has given them this right? Discrimination such as this in any other walk of life could at the very best be seen as favouritism, so is it right that the IRB persist in showing such partiality?

is this really true- australia is waltzing matilda- it is there only culture!

however why should the irb decide what is culture and what isnt, who are they!! the culture police lol

[Guest]

For Waltzing Matilda, the IRB decided leading up to RWC2003 that everyone could have one song, but if you wanted a second use of official time it had to pass their cultural significance assessment, which Waltzing Matilda failed. The 'outrage' over it reached NSW parliament.

The issue is that bastion of cultural sensitivity - the IRB, are discriminating between nations about what is culturally significant to them! Who has given them this right? Discrimination such as this in any other walk of life could at the very best be seen as favouritism, so is it right that the IRB persist in showing such partiality?

True, I get ya. I never quite figured out whether Oz were serious when they sung Waltzing Matilda before games but they clearly were. Oz people must really identify with this song, and fair enough.

But I guess the difference between the haka and a 'song' of cultural significance, is that the haka is laying down a challenge to an opposing team and therefore could be thought of as being relevant to a game of rugby, whilst Waltzing Matilda is just a song (of cultural significance, fine) that attempts to get the home crowd involved. I could be wrong, but I don't think Waltzing Matda has any history with going into battle so it does seem a little out of context.

After all, like many have said, rugby is the main focus not a display of ones culture. I know this may seem hypocritical, but the haka in my mind is in the right context for a game of rugby and is not performed simply to say, 'hey, we are NZ and this is our Maori culture'.

Are there other IRB criteria, such as the pre-match display having to be performed by the 'team only', as in the haka, or are persons 'outside the team' (guy on a guitar) allowed to contribute?

[mystiroakey]

ebop it is only allowed for cultural significance, its the only way the IRB can quantify letting the all blacks perform it, there shouldnt be any blocking other nations cultural time if they want it(like the waltzing matilda request)

people keep bringing up this challenge- which it is in a way i suppose , anyway if it really is only a challenge why are the kiwis allowed to do it and noone else- why do they get to perform it first. it doesnt makes sense and give the kiwis an advantage!

The truth is it is a second national anthem- why and how do we know this?.


just look at this threads topic, the maori population use the haka for many things. it is a show of national pride.

THE problem is the IRB's stance on it and they have essentially protected it, due to brand recognition..

[boomeranga]

is this really true- australia is waltzing matilda- it is there only culture!

That's a hell of a thing to say about a country that gave the world Neighbours. Maybe that theme tune would have made it through?

[Pete C (Kiwireddevil)]

is this really true- australia is waltzing matilda- it is there only culture!

That's a hell of a thing to say about a country that gave the world Neighbours. Maybe that theme tune would have made it through?

But do you really want to be singing about the virtues of "good neighbours" before playing NZ?

[Guest]

is this really true- australia is waltzing matilda- it is there only culture!

That's a hell of a thing to say about a country that gave the world Neighbours. Maybe that theme tune would have made it through?

But do you really want to be singing about the virtues of "good neighbours" before playing NZ?

Yeah boomeranga, are you trying to suck us in, again. Not buying it pal, and you can shove all that rhetoric about understanding, perfect blends, and being there for one another. I see what you're doing, lulling us in, all matey matey, then boom!!! Sucker punch

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Australia has plenty of ancient cultural traditions, just those chaps dont expect other people to take them seriously if they turn up to a game half naked, blowing big poles, and waving grass about.

[mystiroakey]

Well if we are gonna go auboringini

I can just imagine the aussies throwing bommerangs around the haka!!

Cant think of a better challenge than that, and how could the IRB fault the culture.

[nobbled]

Morris dancing. It's the only sane response!

[mystiroakey]

full cirlce again.

Ok i suggest we morris dance around the haka

[gregortree]

oh dear, another slow week for rugby news, 606v2 is really scratching around for material

[mystiroakey]

so you gonna start any interesting threads then?

[chewed_mintie]

To revert to the op (from all those moons ago), the play was performed last night and gained a favourable review from the Torygraph...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/theatre/theatre-reviews/9224440/Maori-Troilus-and-Cressida-Shakespeares-Globe-review.html

[Guest]

To revert to the op (from all those moons ago), the play was performed last night and gained a favourable review from the Torygraph...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/theatre/theatre-reviews/9224440/Maori-Troilus-and-Cressida-Shakespeares-Globe-review.html

Wow, that was a good review, very proud of them The haka also got a favorable mention and there was no talk of it being surplus to requirement.

Back to rugby, well kinda. I think SA do it right, they stand like immovable beasts with not a flinch or any signs of gamesmanship in sight. A row of men, arms linked in solidarity, that show respect for their opponents, which is returned ten fold by the ABs and fans. It's unsettling. By respect, it's not a bowing down to, but rather an acknowledgment of the mighty task in front of them. This response shows that they are not phased by the haka or the ABs. Any response other than this shows the ABs are under their skin.

You don't see SA walk up to the haka with plates of raw zebra, even though it worked in 95 (jokes)

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Well if we are gonna go auboringini

I can just imagine the aussies throwing bommerangs around the haka!!

Cant think of a better challenge than that, and how could the IRB fault the culture.

Scotland responds by revealing whats under their kilts and tossing the caber at them

[mystiroakey]

yeah good shout PSW. i like

[The Great Aukster]

To revert to the op (from all those moons ago), the play was performed last night and gained a favourable review from the Torygraph...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/theatre/theatre-reviews/9224440/Maori-Troilus-and-Cressida-Shakespeares-Globe-review.html

Wow, that was a good review, very proud of them The haka also got a favorable mention and there was no talk of it being surplus to requirement.

Back to rugby, well kinda. I think SA do it right, they stand like immovable beasts with not a flinch or any signs of gamesmanship in sight. A row of men, arms linked in solidarity, that show respect for their opponents, which is returned ten fold by the ABs and fans. It's unsettling. By respect, it's not a bowing down to, but rather an acknowledgment of the mighty task in front of them. This response shows that they are not phased by the haka or the ABs. Any response other than this shows the ABs are under their skin.

You don't see SA walk up to the haka with plates of raw zebra, even though it worked in 95 (jokes)

According to the IRB guidelines this is the only acceptable response to a Haka. So back on thread, is it fair that the IRB not only deny other nations their right to their own cultural expression but also stipulate the "right" response?

[mystiroakey]

abit sad that people find the only acceptable responose to bigitory the irbs stance on it who uphold the bigotory.its very odd.

Its the one thing that irks me about sport - they become this intrenational law to themselves.

like the haka and the irb

like fifa and - do i have all day!!!

f1 and ferraris first to view rules and right to vito- double prize money if they win.


in all honesty only golf and cricket seem fair across the board(when it comes to britsih made sports)

[chewed_mintie]

abit sad that people find the only acceptable responose to bigitory the irbs stance on it who uphold the bigotory.its very odd.

Its the one thing that irks me about sport - they become this intrenational law to themselves.

like the haka and the irb

like fifa and - do i have all day!!!

f1 and ferraris first to view rules and right to vito- double prize money if they win.


in all honesty only golf and cricket seem fair across the board(when it comes to britsih made sports)

Not sure about golf, you only have to look at Augusta in the US to see why...

[mystiroakey]

top 50 get in- i dont completly agree with that. however it is what it is- it doesnt discriminate against nationalities, just lesser golfers , yet at the same time invites past winners and has a small field at the cost of possibly more competitive golfers.

But this is not in the same league as allowing one team or one nation a privilage over others.

An argument we could use is that there are 3 majors in america- therefore that could be seen as discriminating agaoinst other tours- but not players.. You see anyone can play on the pga tour, and anyone can enter open events(2 of the majors are!!)

So again its not the same. eveyone has a theoritcal chance

[Taffineastbourne]

In the dim and distant folk used to say"grace" before dinner.This was seen as a bygone ritual and has in the main been kicked into touch.
Perhaps the Haka should go the same way?

[aucklandlaurie]

Samoa does the Siva Tau.(Manu)
Tonga does the Sipi Tau.
Fiji does the Cili.

Meanwhile Hawaii does the Hula.

[The Great Aukster]

Augusta was about as racist as they come! Lee Trevino changed his shoes in the carpark in protest. It used to be mandatory that players took a local coloured caddy as it wasn't deemed right that a white person would carry a bag! Tiger Woods and Steve Williams proved that some traditions can change...

[blackcanelion]

I can see where you are coming from about this, but I wonder if you had a bit more background to the history of the haka in international rugby it might change your view, evn if only slightly. Personally I'd rather ditch the haka now. Not because I believe there is anything wrong with it, I love as a kiwi to watch the Ab's or kiwi's performing a pre maych haka. I'm tired of the debates that go with it.

In response to your earlier posts. Haka in rugby is one of the oldest traditions in international rugby. It can be both a Maori and rugby tradition. It goes back to 1889 and the NZ natives tour of the UK (and possibly before). We know it was performed in Australia in 1903 and on the original's tour to the UK in 1905-06.

It pre dates nation anthems in sport and many other rugby traditions (e.g. the current numbering system on shirts). I think I'm right in saying that national anthems were a response to the haka in the original welsh game. This is why we have haka followed by both national anthems.

As far as I'm aware the haka wasn't imposed on other teams. It was done at the request of the host nation. Until relatively recently it was only done on tour, and not at home. As recently as the 1970's (I think) the All Blacks requested not to have to porform the haka, hardly the action of a team imposing a practice on the opposition.

Historically, NZ is not the only team to perform a haka. There was a move for all colonial teams to perform war dances. Needless to say teams from SA and Australia didn't perservere. The other South Pacific island teams (Fiji, Tonga and Samoa have).

I think the problem is twofold:
1) some rugby writers have connected the All Blacks winning record with the haka. There is a pretty good arguement againt this given our home record pre haka, and the fact that prior to 1987 it was if anything a psychological disadvantage. However, it's great fodder for fleet street journalists who thrive on devisive articles.
2) the decision to perform it properly. Buck Shelford ensured that it be performed properly, that the players learnt the moves and words. The creation of their own haka, kapa o pango is an extension of this (instead of using Te Raupreha's Kamete). This ultimately engenders, what is the correct response.

It seems to me that the IRB placed limitations on teams approaching the haka to limit the potential of violence between two fired up teams. This isn't to everyone's tastes, even in NZ, but you can see why they did it. The Auastralians introduced walzing matilda as a response, and the welsh tried to introduce a response as well. The AB's accepted the first but not the second (I'm sure if they had their time again they'd have rejected the Australian overture as well).

The question is should the host country be able to respond in any form they see fit. The answer is yes. Even the All Blacks agree. The issue is that it is a tradition and that people expect it as of right. It's actually performed at the agreement of the host rugby union and the All Blacks. So when the WRU said this is the prematch entertainment, the AB's said no thank you. The AB's have said recently they are happy not to perform it in public (they perform it for themselves, which the broadcaster will inevitably broadcaste given they have cameras in the changiung rooms these days).

I don't really see it as a problem. If a host country doesn't want the haka, it doesn't need to be performed, as per the Welsh game. For people like yourself, this would seem to me, the perfect solution. It's probably worth remembering that nobodies a victim here, the issue is really about pre match entertainment, tradition, the ability of rugby unions to communicate with each other and negotiate mutually beneficial solutions.

top 50 get in- i dont completly agree with that. however it is what it is- it doesnt discriminate against nationalities, just lesser golfers , yet at the same time invites past winners and has a small field at the cost of possibly more competitive golfers.

But this is not in the same league as allowing one team or one nation a privilage over others.

An argument we could use is that there are 3 majors in america- therefore that could be seen as discriminating agaoinst other tours- but not players.. You see anyone can play on the pga tour, and anyone can enter open events(2 of the majors are!!)

So again its not the same. eveyone has a theoritcal chance

[Cowshot]

Good to see the excellent review. Had to laugh at a Shakespeare article that started off talking about fine buttocks!

I find looking back that I've gone through changes of opinion regarding the Haka in Rugby. Simply put I've gone from anti to pro. I do think the ABs usually get a slight edge out of it at the start, but as I've understood its cultural significance more in general, and the value it has in uniting pakeha and maori, and the sheer spectacle it adds to rugby, I've ended up in favour.

[Effervescing Elephant]

From someone who knows:

"Stare into the eyes of an All Black during the haka and you see a deep cold darkness. What you glimpse is a man’s soul and it draws you in. As the challenge of the haka is thrown down you find yourself tumbling into a stare like Alice down the rabbit hole.

The crowd disappears and your mind fills with the deafening voice of a nation asking you one simple question: 'These boys will do what ever it takes to win. How far are you willing to go?’

In that moment, no matter how you got there, you have to decide. What are your limits, where do you draw the line, how much pain can you endure? "

Will Greenwood. Says it all really!

[Hood83]

I like the Haka and want it to stay. My only gripe is that it should not be performed after a home team's anthem. I've always, and i'm not entirely sure why, just found that quite offensive, just seems kind of presumptuous.

It's probably me being precious more than anything. If a team performs a Haka and your team then goes on to say 'so what' and smash them. That's pretty much perfect. Easier said then done of course.

The only other complaint i can see is the idea that it has a relatively recent association with rugby, so a lot of the talk about cultural significance is sometimes lost on people. And that this is further diluted by a sense it has all become a bit...commercialised. But these arguments are pretty old hat, and frankly, no team is above selling itself a little. In terms of traditions - well they have to start somewhere.

[anotherworldofpain]

The problem Hood83 with finding offense and having your idea on how should be the protocols is that is just your idea too. Other people might be offended too at your idea that home anthem is most important thing.

So this way all unions negotiate on protocol and come to agree. And this is working nicely with only one or two problems. So mostly a good job. Is really such tiny issue that I dont get my mind to how is growing up the problem for some peoples. For me worst is drugs, eye gouging, pretend blood injury and many other devious affair and less problem somebody do a little performance before a kick off time.

[The Great Aukster]

AWOP - The problem is the biased way the IRB handle the issue. They are supposed to be the arbiters of the sport, yet they allow some countries to express their culture and forbid others the same courtesy. Worse than that they dictate how other countries must respond to the haka and fine them for breaching the unfair IRB protocol!

[aucklandlaurie]

Aukster

If that truely was the case,then dont you think at least one non New Zealand delegate to the IRB would have put something forward to balance this huge injustice,in the last few decades?

[nganboy]

AWOP - The problem is the biased way the IRB handle the issue. They are supposed to be the arbiters of the sport, yet they allow some countries to express their culture and forbid others the same courtesy. Worse than that they dictate how other countries must respond to the haka and fine them for breaching the unfair IRB protocol!

I can't understand why the IRB (controlled by the European bloc of votes) are so pro NZ and anti everyone else. Think of all those requests by other countries to express their culture that have been denied. For example..... um help me out here people cause I can't think of one. Those IRB bast**ds must have emptied my mind.

[Guest]

AWOP - The problem is the biased way the IRB handle the issue. They are supposed to be the arbiters of the sport, yet they allow some countries to express their culture and forbid others the same courtesy. Worse than that they dictate how other countries must respond to the haka and fine them for breaching the unfair IRB protocol!

Woe be all those poor disadvantaged rugby teams that are forbidden the chance to express their proud cultures, when teams from the pacific (not just the precious ABs) can. You know, without the IRB and their precious rules around the haka, there'd be all in brawls before even a peep of the whistle. Back in the day, when men were men and behaved like gentlemen, there was no issue. It was when some teams thought it a good idea to advance right up to the ABs as they were doing the haka and damn near spat in their faces. Is this what you want? Or do you just want the IRB to ban the haka? A case of, we can't have our own similar thing, so no one can.

[The Great Aukster]

AWOP - The problem is the biased way the IRB handle the issue. They are supposed to be the arbiters of the sport, yet they allow some countries to express their culture and forbid others the same courtesy. Worse than that they dictate how other countries must respond to the haka and fine them for breaching the unfair IRB protocol!

I can't understand why the IRB (controlled by the European bloc of votes) are so pro NZ and anti everyone else. Think of all those requests by other countries to express their culture that have been denied. For example..... um help me out here people cause I can't think of one. Those IRB bast**ds must have emptied my mind.

nganboy - If you read the thread you'll find what you're looking for.

[The Great Aukster]

EBOP - What I'd like is for the IRB to treat all teams equally - is that too much to ask?

[Guest]

Whoops, must have said something offensive, like 'haka', , apologies.

I do kinda see your point Aukster and all others that feel strongly opposed to it, but in the great scheme of things, it is just a haka.

Before reading this forum, I used to think everyone just lapped it up and enjoyed it for what it is. Boy, talk about being ignorant (arrogant?). Now I know that for some fans, it's only perceived as AB favoritism by the IRB. This realisation kinda felt like being told Santa is your dad, you just don't want to believe it, surely there's a misunderstanding.

Nevermind, we all have opinions, I love it as do many kiwis/other fans, and yourself and others can think otherwise. No problem, never the twain shall meet. If you're looking for answers regarding the haka, it'll be as elusive as a talking frog. Anyways, think I've done my dash, good luck and good day.

ps. About the level playing field, hopefully this occurs when the whistle is blown for kick off. The haka is all but a distant (un)fond memory by then, and it's game on!

[Biltong]

EBOP, I in fact think this has little to do with the Haka, but rather about the fact that the IRB is seen to favour some teams over ohters.

[eirebilly]

EBOP, I in fact think this has little to do with the Haka, but rather about the fact that the IRB is seen to favour some teams over ohters.

Which sides to the IRB favor over others?

I think that its more to do with the IRB being very protective of the HAKA as it is one of the most recogniseable and marketable aspects of rugby.

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