Shumi hits out at Pirelli

It may be the same for everyone but he says that too much tyre mangement (thats 'too much' not none) is preventing the drivers from pushing the cars to the limit. Shumi has driven in two very different F1 eras so his views are worth listening to and I agree. Tyre evaporation along with DRS is simply a play to the masses at the expense of racing purists with an indulgence of false overtakes in much the same way as Americans invented their own version of football because 'soccer' was too low scoring. To put it more bluntly it levels the playing field and turns down the wick of the harder racers.
More durable tyres and more racing please and if you want to keep the unpredictability element then how bout bringing back refuling. A driver can then stand on the top step in the knowledge that he raced his ass off. After all thats why they came into F1. Isnt it?

The only thing I would change and bring back is refuelling. Harder racers can go crazy with lighter cars. That's it for me!

I still think you'd need both (durable and light) or the name of the game would still be to 'hold back' and nurse tyres rather than fall off the cliff as did Kimi last week in China.

With a full tank of fuel they are really harsh in their Tyres but somehow these drivers can make it 2 stop. Even Perez has done a one stop!

The lightness refuelling brings to the game will increase tyre durability no end and will only improve the spectacle. Drivers will be able to drive fast knowing they are not sliding around like a fully laden bus wrecking their rubber!

The cars will also be easier on brakes, run less wing, increase performance and bring back the strategy game! IMHO!

I agree, bring back refuelling.

But would that negate the tyres. As, tyres may only last 8 laps for example. Teams could then fuel accordingly, the car would run faster on lower fuel and the tyres lasting no longer than the amount of fuel they're running wouldnt matter as they'd pit anyway.

SteveG wrote:It may be the same for everyone but he says that too much tyre mangement (thats 'too much' not none) is preventing the drivers from pushing the cars to the limit. Shumi has driven in two very different F1 eras so his views are worth listening to and I agree. Tyre evaporation along with DRS is simply a play to the masses at the expense of racing purists with an indulgence of false overtakes in much the same way as Americans invented their own version of football because 'soccer' was too low scoring. To put it more bluntly it levels the playing field and turns down the wick of the harder racers.
More durable tyres and more racing please and if you want to keep the unpredictability element then how bout bringing back refuling. A driver can then stand on the top step in the knowledge that he raced his ass off. After all thats why they came into F1. Isnt it?

Balderdash.

I'll simply refer you to Hamilton's tyre problems during the last couple of seasons where Bridgestones were used. Arguably the hardest racer on the grid, he still tended to wear his tyres out before most other drivers.

The same problems will still manifest themselves, just over longer stints.

Drivers and cars that are harder on their tyres, will still have to stop before those that wear them out less quickly.

The ability to marry fuel and tyre levels sounds interesting. Racers running light with more stops versus tyre specialists running long with less stops. Dunno if that would be just the ticket to negate tyre degradation or too mad. But hey anything that removes the current racing straitjacket is surely good.

If we brought back refuelling then Perez/Button would only ever stop for fuel

dyrewolfe wrote:Balderdash.

I'll simply refer you to Hamilton's tyre problems during the last couple of seasons where Bridgestones were used. Arguably the hardest racer on the grid, he still tended to wear his tyres out before most other drivers.

The same problems will still manifest themselves, just over longer stints.

Drivers and cars that are harder on their tyres, will still have to stop before those that wear them out less quickly.

My point (and the point that Shumi was making) is that drivers are no longer prepared to or are unable to push themselves and a car to its limits. You mention Hamilton. He may have wore his tyres out more quickly but he could get away with it and still win races. Now he cant and has to drive round like my milkman.

Thats it, the harder wearing the tyre the harder the driver is on them. Which would go towards what DW has said, Lewis would still wear them out first. But he'd be able to drive harder on them.

But on the other side of the coin. I dont want to watch drivers looking after tyres and poodling round the circuit to get to the end.

I agree entirely with Schumacher, it's getting ridiculous now. The tyre situation has become over manipulated to the point of being ridiculous, and hugely wasteful. There is too much desire to make it a "show" and the purity of the racing has been lost.

The whole F1 show is now solely about tyre management and there's no denying that. The drivers are not even pushing hard anymore that's why you never see a crash and the reason why we are basically witnessing 100% reliability. F1 is of course about the machine but their is an element of driver ability that sets drivers apart, however i'm even questioning now whether driver ability is actually important now. Getting these tyres to 'switch on' or find the 'sweet spot' is a complete unknown to the teams and drivers, it appears it's entirely based on luck and that coincides with having four different race winners.

Yes the races are more exciting but we're not seeing proper racing, it's all artificial overtaking, conservation and management of car and tyres and i'm actually getting annoyed with it. Even the king of tyre management is struggling, what does that tell you? I love Lewis Hamilton but what has happened to him? I've never witnessed Hamilton like this, he is actually so boring to watch now, he's not hustling the car at all, not pushing the boundaries, its ridiculous.

You might not agree or you may but schumi is correct, its not right and something has to be done. This season is astonishing and I dont even think the best car or driver combination will even end up winning the title. It's completely up in the air, that maybe exciting but is it what F1 should be about.....not in my opinion

I love Formula 1, and used to watch every race of the season. So far this season I've partially watched one. It is completely ridiculous - so artificial, and quite reliant on luck. Is that what a sport should be about?

It's glorified Mario Kart.

Racing was all about pushing a car to its very limits. Some drivers could master it better than others and thats what separated the great from the very good. Thats what made us stand up and take notice of the Sennas, the Alonsos and the Hamiltons when they first came into F1. How good is Ricciardo ? How good is Vergne ? Perez anybody ? Are they great ? We don't know because at the moment every driver has to drive within themselves looking after tyres. I'm glad Shumi has spoken out - it may lead to more opinions being aired and a rethink.

Agree with Schumacher to, in years gone past driver's were always going quicker towards the end's of stints which made it exciting for jumping in the pitstops. The current tyres literally reach a point and just fall to pieces by 2-3 seconds a lap, they don't have to be durable enough to run a 1 stop but at least to make it realistic enough to run a solid 2 stopper.

monty junior wrote:Agree with Schumacher to, in years gone past driver's were always going quicker towards the end's of stints which made it exciting for jumping in the pitstops. The current tyres literally reach a point and just fall to pieces by 2-3 seconds a lap, they don't have to be durable enough to run a 1 stop but at least to make it realistic enough to run a solid 2 stopper.

I believe Paul di Resta did exactly that and finished 6th.

Also, how do you know drivers don't put in quick in-laps before pitting? We are still seeing drivers gaining (and losing) places during pit stops, so what's changed?

Also, its been VERY rare for drivers to actually experience their tyres "falling off the cliff" as the teams generally manage their tyre strategies pretty well. Raikkonen's plunge down the grid in China was pretty unusual.

SteveG wrote:Racing was all about pushing a car to its very limits. Some drivers could master it better than others and thats what separated the great from the very good. Thats what made us stand up and take notice of the Sennas, the Alonsos and the Hamiltons when they first came into F1. How good is Ricciardo ? How good is Vergne ? Perez anybody ? Are they great ? We don't know because at the moment every driver has to drive within themselves looking after tyres. I'm glad Shumi has spoken out - it may lead to more opinions being aired and a rethink.

I believe we saw a very good example of how good Perez can be when he chased Alonso down in China and nearly overtook him...until he was reined in.

If you took your blinkers off you'd realise its not JUST tyres the drivers (and teams) have to manage. What about FUEL, GEARBOXES, ENGINES...?

A lot has changed in F1 since the days of Prost and A. Senna etc. Most of them enforced for economic reasons, to stop manufacturers withdrawing due to spiralling costs (not helped by that greedy b*****d Ecclestone).

For god's sake get a grip and stop bleating about the bloody tyres. They are NOT the sole reason for whatever failings you perceive the sport to have these days.

Electric Demon wrote:I love Formula 1, and used to watch every race of the season. So far this season I've partially watched one. It is completely ridiculous - so artificial, and quite reliant on luck. Is that what a sport should be about?

It's glorified Mario Kart.

More rubbish.

Do you REALLY think in a sport as engineering-oriented as F1 that the teams leave ANYTHING to chance?

What you should be saying is that engineering has taken the sport such a high level of development that there are very few major advantages left to be had, especially with the numerous restrictions put in place by the regulations.

As a result the teams and drivers have to micro-manage every aspect of races to maximise their performances and results. About the ONLY thing that throws things up in the air is the weather.

Also the "artificiality" is just another consequence of engineering development (and restrictions). I have to admit I'm not keen on it, but at least it has solved the overtaking problem.

John wrote:I agree entirely with Schumacher, it's getting ridiculous now. The tyre situation has become over manipulated to the point of being ridiculous, and hugely wasteful. There is too much desire to make it a "show" and the purity of the racing has been lost.

The whole F1 show is now solely about tyre management and there's no denying that. The drivers are not even pushing hard anymore that's why you never see a crash and the reason why we are basically witnessing 100% reliability. F1 is of course about the machine but their is an element of driver ability that sets drivers apart, however i'm even questioning now whether driver ability is actually important now. Getting these tyres to 'switch on' or find the 'sweet spot' is a complete unknown to the teams and drivers, it appears it's entirely based on luck and that coincides with having four different race winners.

Yes the races are more exciting but we're not seeing proper racing, it's all artificial overtaking, conservation and management of car and tyres and i'm actually getting annoyed with it. Even the king of tyre management is struggling, what does that tell you? I love Lewis Hamilton but what has happened to him? I've never witnessed Hamilton like this, he is actually so boring to watch now, he's not hustling the car at all, not pushing the boundaries, its ridiculous.

You might not agree or you may but schumi is correct, its not right and something has to be done. This season is astonishing and I dont even think the best car or driver combination will even end up winning the title. It's completely up in the air, that maybe exciting but is it what F1 should be about.....not in my opinion

dyrewolf you didnt reply about my post, i guess you disagree with that aswell. Why are you the one who always has to disagree with what the vast majority of people think. I'm sorry the tyres are ridiculous, I know it, the fans know it and a seven time world champion knows it. The teams have absolutely no clue how to work these tyres consistantly, therefore the drivers are having to tip-toe around, wait for the DRS zone to come along, overtake and then realise they need to pit because the tyres are now gone thanks to being behind someone in dirty air for a couple of laps as Kimi experienced.

The FIA have created a show, I will grant that but how are we ever going to be able understand how good a driver is? Is Paul Di Resta seriously good at conserving or is he an actual racer with a ruthless streak for winning. He claimed before he entered f1 he was faster than vettel and that he'd beaten in other formula. Well i would want to see the real di resta, see what natural speed and ability this guy has along with perez and the two torro rosso drivers. Surely the implementation of DRS and a much more durable tyre currently being offered is the answer. We need to get back to an even balance between speed and conservation. Currently we are unbalanced significantly towards tyre mananagment.

I believe I have the solution to tyres.

I remember a time in F1 where a driver chose a compound for qualifying and the race and dealt with the consequences. Soft or hard compound and then they run a strategy accordingly. No changing compounds as they have to run what they chose.

For some reason the sport seems to want to make teams run both compounds during the race. Can somebody tell me why?

Get ready for the solution. It is immense!

If the FIA want teams to run both compounds then that's fine. The driver can choose 1 compound for qualifying and use the other compound for racing. The driver makes the choice on which he wants to run. Plus it stops drivers saving rubber for the race because that compound will be surpluss from qualifying. Tyre wars still but in a much more interesting position. Do you go for quali or race advantage? Track position is crucial after all.

As and extra twis the FIA should implement this and bring being back refuelling. Q3 will be interesting plus there would be strategy again.

Everybody loves strategy!

Don't thank me! It's why I am on the Monza Motorsport Council. We have all the best ideas!

DW - your opinon is your own and its perfectly valid. I totally, completely and comprehensively disagree with your view but do not dismiss your posts as 'rubbish' and 'balderdash' - even if I think otherwise. There is a way of replying without getting peoples backs up.

Come on guys lets not go back down that old path.

Lets keep debates going without getting insulting

SteveG wrote:DW - your opinon is your own and its perfectly valid. I totally, completely and comprehensively disagree with your view but do not dismiss your posts as 'rubbish' and 'balderdash' - even if I think otherwise. There is a way of replying without getting peoples backs up.

Sorry - but some of the comments on here were getting MY back up.

And I'd like to point out that my opinions in this case are also FACT...it isn't JUST tyre wear that limits how fast cars/drivers can go.

However I shall try to restrain myself in future and stick to pointing out peoples' errors, without mentioning how silly they are.

dyrewolfe wrote:Sorry - but some of the comments on here were getting MY back up.

And I'd like to point out that my opinions in this case are also FACT...it isn't JUST tyre wear that limits how fast cars/drivers can go.

However I shall try to restrain myself in future and stick to pointing out peoples' errors, without mentioning how silly they are.

Of course there is more to racing than just managing the tyres. No one is arguing about that. My original point is that tyres now have TOO MUCH influence (in comparison to engines, gearboxes, fuel etc) as they are having a direct detrimental effect on the whole mindset to push the cars for fear of dropping off a cliff. And this year is further compounded by a tyre window tighter than a ducks backside to the point where races so far have resembled a tyre lottery - if you find the window (as Perez did) you have a ticket to the ball and if you don't then you may as well go home. Of course races should be won by the driver who best manages all the elements BUT races should also be won by speed and the art of racing not just because your tyres happened to find their 'sweet spot' on a Sunday.

Now You could argue that its up to the teams to understand this years tyres and set up the car correctly (and they eventually will) but that still doesnt detract from the fact that at the moment following another car too closely or heaven forbid dicing wheel to wheel with another car will simply kill your tyres.

At the end of the day all I'm asking for is for more tyre durabilty to bring back the elements of racing and risk taking in addition to tyre management and everything else. And, if I'm being greedy - refuling but thats an argument for another day.

Another attack on the Pirelli Tyres. Schumi's not going to let this tyre situation go away is he and i'm quite glad.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/formulaone/article-2141224/Michael-Schumacher-launches-attack-Pirelli.html

He expects the tyre producers to adapt to him? He should be trying to adapt the tyres. Girls blouse

He does make a valid point. The tyre situation isn't ideal and he knows a lot more about the sport than most of the guys on the grid or on forums

I think there is an argument. The issue is they've gone from the indestructible Bridgestones to the chewing gum Pirellis.

They need something inbetween. Surely seeing no overtaking due to tyres that just last for lap after lap is as bad as lots of passing due to the tyres of the driver being passed have "fallen off the cliff"

Ask yourself this...

Which race did you prefer... Bahrain 2010 or Bahrain 2012?

Bahrain was obviously the worst race ever in 2010 as it became the worlds most expensive congo line. 2012 was much more exciting.

The only difference was the tyres. Like it or not the show has become more exciting and less predicable with the tyres.

That doesn't mean things are perfect the way they are AC. The tyres are having too much of an effect on the results. There needs to be a balance between what they were in 2010 and 2011/12.

I never said they were perfect now. But things were far from perfect before with the indestructable tyres and Anti-Overtake-Aerodynamic set ups on cars.

DRS and the tyres have levelled the playing field. Rubbish drivers are still at the back of the grid and the quicker drivers still remain at the front. Just like always...

For the Average Joe arm chair fan things will be far more exciting now than say 2 years ago.

Bernie and the FIA have suceeded in their mission to make F1 more exciting.

AC but the quicker drivers can't push the car to its limits. That's what we want to see. Not the usual from lap 1 message, look after your tyres or from quali, do not bother going out, look after your tyres malarky

Alessandro Ciambella wrote:DRS and the tyres have levelled the playing field. Rubbish drivers are still at the back of the grid and the quicker drivers still remain at the front. Just like always...

It has levelled the playing field so far as similarly matched cars go. With hard flat out racing no longer an option the problem now is the great drivers can no longer stand out from the very good in similarly matched cars. If Senna was racing today he'd probably look ordinary tip toeing around nursing his tyres and pushing his button to pass at the end of the back straight like everyone else. And that I suspect is where Shumi is coming from.

IMO the tyres ARENT the solution, aero is. LOWER the aero so cars can follow better.

SteveG wrote:

Alessandro Ciambella wrote:DRS and the tyres have levelled the playing field. Rubbish drivers are still at the back of the grid and the quicker drivers still remain at the front. Just like always...

It has levelled the playing field so far as similarly matched cars go. With hard flat out racing no longer an option the problem now is the great drivers can no longer stand out from the very good in similarly matched cars. If Senna was racing today he'd probably look ordinary tip toeing around nursing his tyres and pushing his button to pass at the end of the back straight like everyone else. And that I suspect is where Shumi is coming from.

Yes, but that because the new rules of F1 are geared towards conservation of machinery in general, even more so with grid penalties for changing engines and gearboxes.

The sport as a whole has undergone a step change since Ayrton's death. As well as becoming even more safety oriented, everyone involved has realised they can't go on spending ever-increasing amounts of money in pursuit of ever-decreasing performance gains.

There are 2 schools of thought:

1. Let the teams go nuts, use 4, 5 or 6-litre V12 engines and all the gadgets they can cram into the chassis and let F1 go back to being the pinnacle of engineering once again. This isn't feasible as the costs would skyrocket and you'd end up with teams pulling out. Also the cars would likely go back to looking like Christmas trees on wheels, covered in aero devices and following would become so difficult even DRS and KERS wouldn't help overtaking.

2. Lets go the the same route as the lower formulas and have everyone compete in identical (though high spec) cars to find out who really is the best driver. Although certainly feasible, its not an attractive idea as it effectively robs the teams and suppliers of the chance to stand out in terms of engineering superiority, which has always been an important facet of F1.


So what we've got is something in-between, which doesn't really make anyone happy, but at least the high level of regulation is keeping F1 within reach of teams who can't afford to blow £200-300million a season. Additionally, features like KERS and DRS, while artificial, at least mean we aren't faced with the prospect of little to no overtaking, as was the case a few seasons ago (when we had the highly durable Bridgestone tyres and re-fuelling was allowed).

I agree with Critical Mass that the aero rules need re-working so that cars create less turbulence for following cars to fight through. I also think a lot of the design regs need to be relaxed so that designers have more leeway to innovate. In fact, the ONLY things I would stipulate are:

1. Maximum overall dimensions for the car.
2. Maximum total surface area for aero devices.
3. Engine capacity.
4. Retain the current limits on the number of engines and gearboxes used over a season.
5. Set limits on testing over the season, though less strict than the current ones.