Tony Bellew

First topic message reminder :

I've been really impressed by him tonight. Brilliant shot selection accuracy and power and not forgetting an excellent double jab. Hopefully a world title tilt for him now. I would definitely like to see him get a rematch with Clev and do a job on him.

What did you guys think of his performance against an admittedly fairly limited fighter tonight?

Soldier_Of_Fortune wrote:

BoxingFan88 wrote:Warren only promotes Cleverly, doesn't matchroom have Bellew now?

No Dave Coldwell is Bellew's promoter. Think Eddie Hearn helped him get the fight on Sky due to his links.

No he's not Warren still is Coldwell just won the purse bids to put on the fight. Eddie Hearn stepped in and got it on Sky for him.

Eyetoldyouso wrote:

Jimmy Moz wrote:I have noticed actually that the Bellew fan club/Cleverly hate club have now got the tissues out because Bellew beat a fighter Cleverly dispatched of with total ease 3 years ago lol. I don't mind either fighter and would be happy to see a rematch but the Cleverly criticism on here is getting boderline madness and quite frankly, rather tedious.

Couldn't agree more

I agree with the general sentiment, some of the criticism is over the top but then some of it isn't. I'm a Clev fan and lately I've just been frustrated with him and his unquestioning cooperation with the Warren Way. I'd still support Clev against whoever his opponent was on the night but my support doesn't extend to a form of undying Steffan-esque loyalty and I just can't condone the shambolic decisions Clev is making outside the ring atm.

Knowsit17 wrote:

Eyetoldyouso wrote:

Jimmy Moz wrote:I have noticed actually that the Bellew fan club/Cleverly hate club have now got the tissues out because Bellew beat a fighter Cleverly dispatched of with total ease 3 years ago lol. I don't mind either fighter and would be happy to see a rematch but the Cleverly criticism on here is getting boderline madness and quite frankly, rather tedious.

Couldn't agree more

I agree with the general sentiment, some of the criticism is over the top but then some of it isn't. I'm a Clev fan and lately I've just been frustrated with him and his unquestioning cooperation with the Warren Way. I'd still support Clev against whoever his opponent was on the night but my support doesn't extend to a form of undying Steffan-esque loyalty and I just can't condone the shambolic decisions Clev is making outside the ring atm.

Whilst I agree that as world champ, Clev should step it up a bit. But I cant blame seeing as its warren's doing. I dont know if he is unquestioningly supporting Warren. He's unlikely to say anyting contrary seeing as he is still under contract with Warren and loose lips may cost him plenty. Look at degale. Fought without much fanfair. Some may like that, but it affects his profile and his earnings.

Clev is just playing the game and when his contract is nearing renewal, watch his level of opposition improve.

But it's not as if the fighter has no say in the negotiations. How many of them do you see interviewed after fights and when questioned on who they might fight next they answer "I don't know, ask Frank. Ain't up to me"?

Fighters are perfectly capable of pushing their promoters towards certain fights if they make it clear that they want those fights. Generally if they're fighting poor opposition, it indicates that they're going along with it rather than being completely powerless.

That's why Calzaghe and now Clev, even though I'm a fan of both, get so much stick for not being ambitious when they pretended that they were and being content to sit back and defend against bums. In contrast, fighters like Froch and Hatton delivered what they promised and made it clear that they were doing as much as possible to secure those big fights.

Az in your world the promoter is the ruler of a fighters career without them having any say in what they want to do.

Cleverly has his team around him and they all would have a say in what the next steps are. In your head either: (a) Warren holds a gun to Nathan and tells him to fight a nurse, or (b) Cleverly gets a phone call from Warren saying "ok Nathan, you are fighting on xxth of xxx against (whoever)" and then the phone goes dead.

Its been over a year since Clev started namedropping the likes of Hopkins etc but apparently they have to come to Wales if those fights ever get made.

Of course he has a say who hes fighting and it would be ridiculously stupid of you to think any fighter doesnt. A promoter may talk a fighter out of it by discussing easy ways to make money by fighting tin cans but then it would be the fighter agreeing to go along with this.

Against Bellew he had a pass to have a voluntary defense. Fair enough, but why is it a big deal to question the garbage that they have created since that fight. Nurse Tommy ranked 83rd. Then the post fight comments that "it was the hardest fight I have been in" ?????

But the worst was the fact they had agreed to face Sukhotski after the nurse. But then sent Frank Warren to beg the WBO to allow them to face some other clown.

The likes of Steffan who wear the tinted glasses will always have an excuse but wake up man.

Although im not surprised with you theory Az seeing as you said that after Khan the Peterson fight, Golden Boys lawyers filed to have the decision overturned and didn't tell Khan, didn't give him any say into what they were doing and Khan didn't have anything to do with it as Golden Boy control everything he does.

The fighters have a massive say as well as THEY make the promoters their money. If they aren't happy, the promoters MAKE them happy

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:Az in your world the promoter is the ruler of a fighters career without them having any say in what they want to do.
Cleverly has his team around him and they all would have a say in what the next steps are. In your head either: (a) Warren holds a gun to Nathan and tells him to fight a nurse, or (b) Cleverly gets a phone call from Warren saying "ok Nathan, you are fighting on xxth of xxx against (whoever)" and then the phone goes dead.

Its been over a year since Clev started namedropping the likes of Hopkins etc but apparently they have to come to Wales if those fights ever get made.

Of course he has a say who hes fighting and it would be ridiculously stupid of you to think any fighter doesnt. A promoter may talk a fighter out of it by discussing easy ways to make money by fighting tin cans but then it would be the fighter agreeing to go along with this.

Against Bellew he had a pass to have a voluntary defense. Fair enough, but why is it a big deal to question the garbage that they have created since that fight. Nurse Tommy ranked 83rd. Then the post fight comments that "it was the hardest fight I have been in" ?????

But the worst was the fact they had agreed to face Sukhotski after the nurse. But then sent Frank Warren to beg the WBO to allow them to face some other clown.

The likes of Steffan who wear the tinted glasses will always have an excuse but wake up man.

Not only in my world sonshine. But in the boxing world, that's how it is. Only very few boxers can promote themselves effectively without being shafted and they usually have very few fights because of the work involved in promoting fights.

What you want is for Clev to shout from the rooftops saying he is not happy with the fights he has been getting. That is simply not going to happen and absolutely naive of you to think it could actually happen.

Warren controls the purse. Therefore warren controls the boxer. In a few years if Clev establishes himself in a global way, he can leave and promote himself. Until then, he says "how high" when Warren says "jump".

Do you think Clev goes through the list of available fighters and picks them for himself? Are you that dumb? And he sent warren off to the WBO? Mate, you watch too many movies or are seriously deluded.

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:Although im not surprised with you theory Az seeing as you said that after Khan the Peterson fight, Golden Boys lawyers filed to have the decision overturned and didn't tell Khan, didn't give him any say into what they were doing and Khan didn't have anything to do with it as Golden Boy control everything he does.

The fighters have a massive say as well as THEY make the promoters their money. If they aren't happy, the promoters MAKE them happy

Why do you have to lie boy?

The fighters may make the promoters their money, but I'll quote Holmes "Boxing is the only sport where the lions are scared of the rats". Do you understand who the lions and who the rats are?

In boxing, the reality is very different from what should happen. You live in an ideal world or want to live in one. Bravo. But boxing turns the laws of business upside down.

Watching Reborn get owned by Az

azania wrote:

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:Az in your world the promoter is the ruler of a fighters career without them having any say in what they want to do.
Cleverly has his team around him and they all would have a say in what the next steps are. In your head either: (a) Warren holds a gun to Nathan and tells him to fight a nurse, or (b) Cleverly gets a phone call from Warren saying "ok Nathan, you are fighting on xxth of xxx against (whoever)" and then the phone goes dead.

Its been over a year since Clev started namedropping the likes of Hopkins etc but apparently they have to come to Wales if those fights ever get made.

Of course he has a say who hes fighting and it would be ridiculously stupid of you to think any fighter doesnt. A promoter may talk a fighter out of it by discussing easy ways to make money by fighting tin cans but then it would be the fighter agreeing to go along with this.

Against Bellew he had a pass to have a voluntary defense. Fair enough, but why is it a big deal to question the garbage that they have created since that fight. Nurse Tommy ranked 83rd. Then the post fight comments that "it was the hardest fight I have been in" ?????

But the worst was the fact they had agreed to face Sukhotski after the nurse. But then sent Frank Warren to beg the WBO to allow them to face some other clown.

The likes of Steffan who wear the tinted glasses will always have an excuse but wake up man.

Not only in my world sonshine. But in the boxing world, that's how it is. Only very few boxers can promote themselves effectively without being shafted and they usually have very few fights because of the work involved in promoting fights.

What you want is for Clev to shout from the rooftops saying he is not happy with the fights he has been getting. That is simply not going to happen and absolutely naive of you to think it could actually happen.

Warren controls the purse. Therefore warren controls the boxer. In a few years if Clev establishes himself in a global way, he can leave and promote himself. Until then, he says "how high" when Warren says "jump".

Do you think Clev goes through the list of available fighters and picks them for himself? Are you that dumb? And he sent warren off to the WBO? Mate, you watch too many movies or are seriously deluded.

Point 1: I don't want to see him on a roof as he might fall, very dangerous. But fighting his mandatory might have been a good thing.

Point 2: http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/boxing/promoter-warren-in-talks-with-wbo-after-767220 . Cleverly was ordered to fight Sukhotski after Karpency. The WBO announced on their website that they would not allow a fight against Krasn-whatever. It was on every sports site that Warren went to change their mind. Why??? surely if a brit fighter got shafted out of his chance you would have something to say about it. And what movies has that ever happened. Weird thing to say Az.

And everyone on the board knows its true what you said about the Khan fight. you just got ridiculed by everyone and changed your tune about 50 times.

Steffan wrote:Clev will beat Bellew like he did last time. Bellew is always running off at the mouth...and when Clev sees him...he should close it

It's funny that Bellew is turning out to be quite a good win but Cleverly has his number. Too much of a workrate and Bellew's power aint all that at the top level. Clev to win again although on points but I hope more decisively than last time.

azania wrote:

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:Az in your world the promoter is the ruler of a fighters career without them having any say in what they want to do.
Cleverly has his team around him and they all would have a say in what the next steps are. In your head either: (a) Warren holds a gun to Nathan and tells him to fight a nurse, or (b) Cleverly gets a phone call from Warren saying "ok Nathan, you are fighting on xxth of xxx against (whoever)" and then the phone goes dead.

Its been over a year since Clev started namedropping the likes of Hopkins etc but apparently they have to come to Wales if those fights ever get made.

Of course he has a say who hes fighting and it would be ridiculously stupid of you to think any fighter doesnt. A promoter may talk a fighter out of it by discussing easy ways to make money by fighting tin cans but then it would be the fighter agreeing to go along with this.

Against Bellew he had a pass to have a voluntary defense. Fair enough, but why is it a big deal to question the garbage that they have created since that fight. Nurse Tommy ranked 83rd. Then the post fight comments that "it was the hardest fight I have been in" ?????

But the worst was the fact they had agreed to face Sukhotski after the nurse. But then sent Frank Warren to beg the WBO to allow them to face some other clown.

The likes of Steffan who wear the tinted glasses will always have an excuse but wake up man.

Not only in my world sonshine. But in the boxing world, that's how it is. Only very few boxers can promote themselves effectively without being shafted and they usually have very few fights because of the work involved in promoting fights.

What you want is for Clev to shout from the rooftops saying he is not happy with the fights he has been getting. That is simply not going to happen and absolutely naive of you to think it could actually happen.

Warren controls the purse. Therefore warren controls the boxer. In a few years if Clev establishes himself in a global way, he can leave and promote himself. Until then, he says "how high" when Warren says "jump".

Do you think Clev goes through the list of available fighters and picks them for himself? Are you that dumb? And he sent warren off to the WBO? Mate, you watch too many movies or are seriously deluded.

That's deluded. Only a lazy and unambitious fighter would think that everything is in the hands of his promoters. Unfortunately too many fighters tick that box today, which is only one of the reasons why boxing has declined.

You'll find that the fighter does in fact have a say in who he fights if he wants it. In fact, he has the main say seeing as he's the one climbing through those ropes and throwing those punches, not his promoter. The promoter might have different designs or preferences than his charge but in the end he can hardly force his fighter to face anyone unless his fighter agrees.

Clev is an example of a fighter who has been relenting and letting his promoter drive his career of late. It's not that he has no choice, it's that he can't be bothered getting off his arse and taking a risk as long as he's still getting paid good money to fight mismatches.

Truth hurts.

I dont think every fighter/promoter relationship is exactly the same. Who the fighter is, the stage they are it in their career, their boxing ability, who the promoter is etc is all relevant.

Ultimately both the fighter and the promoter are working together to succeed and make money. Some fighters might want a bigger say in their opponents, some might be happier to simply leave their next opponent up to whoever the promoter thinks is best. The promoter has to rely on the fighter to the business in the ring, and the fighter has to rely on the promoter to do the business outside the ring.

Most fighters careers would be over before they began if they didnt have a promter handling their career and guiding them well. Warren has done well for Cleverly thus far in giving him the fights that have allowed him to get to the top domestically in Europe and pick up a world title. Cleverly may well feel he can beat anyone in the world. Most fighters have too much confidence and need a promoter to guide their career and pick the right opponents to develop and progress them.

Warren and Cleverly Im sure have sat down and discussed how to go forward. At this stage in Cleverlys career I would say Warren has the biggest say in who to fight and even if Cleverly did want to fight Hopkins or Dawson hes powerless to do so unless Warren is willing to set it up for him - which is not as straightforward as people might assume.

OK. No problem. Its Clev's fault. He told Warren to bypass the top contender so he can fight nurses and plumbers. That's how boxing works. The promoter (Warren) is a solid and honest person who wouldn't line pockets with easy defenses. Always wants the best for the sport and not the fighters. Silly me. And Don King is a very astute businessman who never forced a fighter to fight anyone. Never had the WBC in his back pocket and never controlled the HW division. All those boxers came to him because he was such a nice man.

Degale had a minor issue and hs next fight flew under the radar. No coincidence there.

Jolly good. What world fdo you live in again?

Az all messing aside, what reason would you give for Clev and Warren doing a blatant side step of a fighter who fought his way to mandatory status?

Surely as a boxing fan it can't sit right with you. Btw, Steffany makes out as if it Clev who gets all the bad comments when in fact Fury for example gets exactly the same if not WORSE treatment for doing the same thing with Price and facing a taxi driver. I haven't seen one person defend Fury actually. So why let Cleverly off the hook

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:Steffany makes out as if it Clev who gets all the bad comments

Its 'Steffan'

At least Cleverley hasn't been overtly shouting about fighting Dawson or Hopkins since last Saturday. That is a step forward for him!! I do blame Warren and believe that Cleverley is too weak (personalty wise, I'm not getting in the ring with him!) to stand up to him.

Steffany one minute hate Clev, the second someone slags him off you defend him to the hills, make your mind up women.

I think Clev has been getting an unfair criticism on here. Especially in peoples top 10 Brits p4p were he has actually been omitted from the list with the likes of Bellew (who he has beaten albeit closely), and the likes of Macklin and Barker also ahead of him.

I would have Macklin ahead of him purely on his showing against Sturm. Macklin fought a close draw in great fight with a World class fighter. The closest Cleverly has got to a World class fighter was sparring with Carl Froch.

Jimmy Moz wrote:I have noticed actually that the Bellew fan club/Cleverly hate club have now got the tissues out because Bellew beat a fighter Cleverly dispatched of with total ease 3 years ago lol. I don't mind either fighter and would be happy to see a rematch but the Cleverly criticism on here is getting boderline madness and quite frankly, rather tedious.

It's because he's Welsh. He wouldn't get half the criticism if he was English.

Super D Boon wrote:It's because he's Welsh. He wouldn't get half the criticism if he was English.

Not a truer word has been spoken

I know it, you know, anyone who understands the pro-English attitude on here knows it. And forum members can deny it all they want and the politically correct mods (who I appreciate are just trying to keep the peace) can deny it all we want but we all know full well if Clev was English this tiresome mass anti-Clev hysteria that has infected this forum recently wouldnt be half as bad and please dont insult anyones intelligence by suggesting otherwise

To be honest, its both of your anti England we hate Carl Froch brigade that doesn't do him any favors on here

Your so transparent its funny.

I haven't got a problem with Clev, but he has stalled a little bit and does need to pick up his level of opposition, he's not doing himself any favors name dropping the likes of Hopkins and then fighting traffic warden.

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:Az all messing aside, what reason would you give for Clev and Warren doing a blatant side step of a fighter who fought his way to mandatory status?

Surely as a boxing fan it can't sit right with you. Btw, Steffany makes out as if it Clev who gets all the bad comments when in fact Fury for example gets exactly the same if not WORSE treatment for doing the same thing with Price and facing a taxi driver. I haven't seen one person defend Fury actually. So why let Cleverly off the hook

Warren wanting to milk his latest cash cow. Do you think Clev knows the intricacies of how to deal with the governing bodies? Give him a maths equation, he'll sort that out.

Do you think someone of his boxing experience and character can dictate to Warren and pick and choose his fights? Why do you think Warren's fighters usually fight dross for a long time and when they leave their standard of opposition suddenly increases. Look at Hatton, Khan, Clazaghe, Naz for example.

But hey, lets all gang up and attack Clev. He's the fighter and he makes all the fights. He makes all the decisions except for when to speak to the press in a fight build up, when to start the ring walk, where to fight, who to fight and he decised his purse also.

Promoters are just there to help the fighter. Indeed Holmes was 100% wrong. Boxing is a sport when all are equal and the 'lions' are not scared of the 'rats'. Silly man.

Most of the criticism directed at Cleverly I think is fair enough and usually within reason. Hes obviously going to get some stick for his last opponent and again if he signs to fight another nobody.

But there just seems to be a couple of posters that really have it in for the guy and bring him up at every available opportunity in order to stick the boot in on him. Its this, more than the actual criticism itself that I dont really get, and probably gives the impression that he is far more hated than he is.

alma wrote:Steffan, what would you say about cleverly if he was English I wonder? His nationality is of no concern to me, merely the way his career is being handled. I have the same issue with Kelly brook. A professional for eight years and Matthew Hatton is the best opponent he's fought. Truly embarrassing.

I dont see many negative Kell Brook articles or posts on here though if im honest

Steffan wrote:
I know it, you know, anyone who understands the pro-English attitude on here knows it. And forum members can deny it all they want and the politically correct mods (who I appreciate are just trying to keep the peace) can deny it all we want but we all know full well if Clev was English this tiresome mass anti-Clev hysteria that has infected this forum recently wouldnt be half as bad and please dont insult anyones intelligence by suggesting otherwise

Steffan don't insult everyone elses intelligence then, by suggesting you don't revel in this so called pro-English attitude. You love the role of pantomime villain, that much is obvious. You rarely contibute anything of note unless you feel your back is up against the wall which is a shame as on the few occasions you post on topics that don't have a sinister undertone, you can actually say some interesting things. It clearly gives you a sense of greater purpose to be in a minority, but there are other Welsh posters on here who don't resort to barbed comments and childish hissy fits.

There are people on here, me included who are English and have been extremely supportive of Nathan Cleverly. I can't be bothered anymore as the topic has been done to death, but I defended him when the subject first arose weeks ago. Hell, Jeff is from Yorkshire and has defended Cleverly on here. You can't get more English than him!

Steffan wrote:

Super D Boon wrote:It's because he's Welsh. He wouldn't get half the criticism if he was English.

Not a truer word has been spoken

I know it, you know, anyone who understands the pro-English attitude on here knows it. And forum members can deny it all they want and the politically correct mods (who I appreciate are just trying to keep the peace) can deny it all we want but we all know full well if Clev was English this tiresome mass anti-Clev hysteria that has infected this forum recently wouldnt be half as bad and please dont insult anyones intelligence by suggesting otherwise

Steffan I do tend to agree that the reaction to Cleverly has been out of hand, personally I believe it has more to do with people believing it will wind you up but that is just my opinion, however have to say mate it is not a glass house you should be throwing too many stones in because as Windy has said to you on more than one occasion were Froch if he was from Aberdare rather than Nottingham you would be his biggest fan. Personally don't give a monkeys, if you want to support someone based on their nationality that is your business but lets not suggest you have never let a fighters nationality or rivalry with a welsh fighter cloud or influence your opinion of them because that really would insult peoples intelligence.

[quote="Mind the windows Tino."]

Steffan wrote: There are people on here, me included who are English and have been extremely supportive of Nathan Cleverly. I can't be bothered anymore as the topic has been done to death, but I defended him when the subject first arose weeks ago. Hell, Jeff is from Yorkshire and has defended Cleverly on here. You can't get more English than him!

Maybe I did go a bit OTT

You and Jeff are reasonable people to be fair. Its just certain members who seem to be setting this agenda that has infected the forum

It is a bit tedious stating that people don't like someone because of their nationality. There has been too much justified criticism of Clev's last couple of opponents combined with his "I want to fight the best" assertions for his nationality to be anything other than a secondary factor. I remember Khan getting lots of jip on here for fighting sub par opponents, before he smelt the coffee and, as far as I am aware, he does not have family back in the Valleys. (of course, now he gets jip for other reasons, but let's skip over that bit please!)

[quote="Steffan"]

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:

Steffan wrote: There are people on here, me included who are English and have been extremely supportive of Nathan Cleverly. I can't be bothered anymore as the topic has been done to death, but I defended him when the subject first arose weeks ago. Hell, Jeff is from Yorkshire and has defended Cleverly on here. You can't get more English than him!

Maybe I did go a bit OTT

You and Jeff are reasonable people to be fair. Its just certain members who seem to be setting this agenda that has infected the forum

You included?

Soldier_Of_Fortune wrote:You included?

Yes I am definitely in the reasonable category

Steffan wrote:

Soldier_Of_Fortune wrote:You included?

Yes I am definitely in the reasonable category

Fair enough. I always thought you hated Cleverly for some reason.

rowley wrote:Personally don't give a monkeys, if you want to support someone based on their nationality that is your business but lets not suggest you have never let a fighters nationality or rivalry with a welsh fighter cloud or influence your opinion of them because that really would insult peoples intelligence.

That's the nearest Cleverly will ever get to Cloud, I should imagine.

Total nonsense.

Fury gets it, Brook gets it, even Floyd and Pacquiao where getting it saying they were ducking x and y and fighting old, shot etc fighters.

But if Cleverly gets a free pass for being Welsh then no problem.

Its my opinion and it makes me laugh that just because a welsh poster(s) doesn't agree with me then apparantly I poision the boards feel free anyone who has read me ever witing "nasty" comments about the guy. I think he is a smart, sensible guy. He just looks happy feasting on the public sector.

And Union, the closest he will get to the clouds of this world is when he signs to fight a pilot next. Which wouldn't shock me in the slightest.

Yes Reborn it is your opinion and you are more than entitled to it. It's just when there is an article titled 'Senchenko vs Malignaggi' and you chip in with:

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:Dont diss Nath "da Public Sector Wrecker" Clev!!

that it is getting beyond a joke. Your not poision, your just very tedious. And for the record I am Irish not Welsh.

I dont think most people have an issue with the criticisms of Cleverly when its within reason, but you seem to have it in for the guy in particular from the comments I have read. I think its the consistency of which hes brought up is more the issue.

Jimmy Moz wrote:Yes Reborn it is your opinion and you are more than entitled to it. It's just when there is an article titled 'Senchenko vs Malignaggi' and you chip in with:

Reborn-DeeMcK-Reborn wrote:Dont diss Nath "da Public Sector Wrecker" Clev!!

that it is getting beyond a joke. Your not poision, your just very tedious. And for the record I am Irish not Welsh.

And you point this out why?? There were other posters who brought him up on that thread just before I wrote that so why do you feel the need to point out what I said as if I changed the subject of the thread.

What has you being Irish got to do with anything? I have never mentioned anything you have said. It is another poster who makes statements about the likes of Froch "I hope he gets his arrogant face smashed in" or words to this effect just because he critised Calzaghe a few years ago.

Now we have posts saying

Steffan wrote:I hope Clev rematches him and shuts him up once and for all

&

Steffan wrote:A good Calzaghe v Lacy style beating would be good though. Clev was poor first time around. Lets hope if they do rematch he raises him game

about Bellew because guess who he critised?? And now any poster on here who gives a negative view on Cleverly gets called poision etc. But I suppose its a little harsh seeing as apparantly Cleverly has absolutely no say in what he does in his own career according to Az.

I am Irish too and believe me, I stood on my tinted glasses a long time ago. If a guy at least faces his mandatory instead of fighting guys almost ranked in treble figures then it wouldn't be that bad.