England players ruled out of tour

https://twitter.com/#!/Official_RFU/status/197280155788517377

Webber, Lawes, Wood, Croft, Simpson and Sharples have all been ruled out of the tour. The really interesting thing now then will be who fills that extra flanker spot, since Clark is ruled out with his ban as well. Will Dowson come in at 6, or will Armitage get his call up? Maybe even someone like Luke Wallace. Kvesic is in the u20s so I assume he's out.

Damn, would have hoped to get at least 1 of Lawes, Croft and Sharples. Armitage, even if he tours, won't be at the first match. Might see Robshaw back at 6 and Gibson or Wallace in then

I'm surprised that Croft has been ruled out, I though his injury wasn't as serious as first thought. Definitely going to blood a new flanker, Second Row and hooker now.

Any ideas on who the hooker should be though? Obviously Hartley will be keeping himself fit and will start, but with Gray and Brooker out for Quins (though Gray may be back by then) I'm not sure who the bench option would be.

Paice? Youngs?

Youngs or George? Second row, could be Attwood or Robson. Who knows in the back row

Lancaster was making noises about Youngs. I think Hartley and Mears will both be going with Youngs/ Lindsay/ Paice going as back up.

Croft could probably do with the rest after the world cup. Certainly makes things interesting.

So from the "1st choice" 6 nations playing squad we have (may changes for 1st test in [])

1. Corbisiero
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Botha
5. Parling
6. [Robshaw]
7. Robshaw [Fearns/Gibson]
8. Morgan

9. Dickson
10. Farrell
11. Strettle
12. Barritt
13. Tuilagi
14. Ashton
15. Foden

16. [Youngs]
17. Stevens [Doran-Jones]
18. Palmer
19. Dowson
20. Youngs
21. Hogson [Flood]
22. Brown.

Most likely differences would be Dowson starting at 6 and Robshaw staying at 7

I seriously thought that Croft was just a stinger- very shocked. Lawes to me is starting to become a real concern- will he ever be able to keep healthy? It seems like he's the sort of player that comes back from injury for 2 or 3 games, and then is out for another few months. Sharples is a damn shame too- thought he could have torn it up on the hard pitches out there. What's wrong with him? Anyone know? Think Wallace should be taken now, since Kvesic is in the U20s. Would love for Armitage to be called up, he had a stormer at the weekend and deserves it. Youngs to start at hooker for me.

read that following Haskell suspension at the Highlanders (3 weeks) , he would become available for the summer tour....

Tom Johnson anyone? been consistently good for two seasons now. Not a longterm answer but why not pick on form?

06. Haskell
07. Robshaw
08. Morgan

That would be a massive back-row!

what was Haskell suspended for?

How has he been playing?

But there are two games after the ban and before the tour so I can't see how it makes a difference. He wouldn't be released until a week before the first test

[EDIT: Ban for two punches after being held back at scrum in a 'sensitive area'. Not entirely sure what that means but it was given as provocation. Doesn't seem to be for one of those idiotic cheap shots he used to do.]

suspended for punching. There's a video on the super15 website.

Think he's been playing ok, but I've only caught a few games and clips here and there. Adjusting to the pace I believe.

http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/Tom-Croft-frame-Leicester-Tigers-season-finale/story-15920351-detail/story.html

The Croft thing seems at odds with what Cockerill is saying to the local media. As it happens I think all players who took part in both the RWC (min 3 games) as well as the 6N (min 3 games) should be given the summer off anyway. Two major international tournaments is quite enough for one season, especially as there was no real break following on from last season.

Here is a link
http://www.superxv.com/video/james-haskell-shown-a-yellow-card-for-striking/james-haskell-shown-a-yellow-card-for-striking-video_14d18c7dd.html

He was being held in the crotch region unclear if the guy got anything but a hand full of shorts though.

He was very lucky not get a red

Now I hear Croft has had surgery on a disc in his neck and will be out for roughly 4 months. We needed him for the end of season run in.

From the look of the Haskell incident the player got hold of a little more than shorts. I remember a similar incident with Julian White against Leinster with the Leinster second row going for White's family jewels and getting the same treatment. Shame as Haskell looked to be doing well at the Highlanders, the last game I saw him play they lost but he was in every ruck and by the end was so tired he could barely stand. Can't remember who they were playing but he put in an absolute shift.

4 months??! That's terrible news. Annoyingly I thought it was a short term injury too.

DAMN YOU NICK EASTER

Bad luck to Croft and all that, but maybe that'll teach him to work on his tackling approach- he went way way too high and we've said before that poor technique in the tackle gets you injured

Indeed it does. Just a shame that he's having to learnt he real hard way.

bluestonevedder wrote:DAMN YOU NICK EASTER

That comment made me smile. Shame for the Tigers though in the run in but there is a very very small silver lining in that he will at least now get a rest. Hopefully the op goes well and he returns in the same form he has shown in 2012.

Regarding Haskell. I've seen him a few times this season and he has done okay although he is playing to a specific limited role - basically follow the ball and hit every ruck. As a result there hasn't been the broken field runs that he has shown in the past. First couple of games he played in S15 it was almost like he was trying too hard but he had seemed to settle later on. Due to Thompson's form he's played nearly all his games at 7 and not 6 or 8 (the Highlanders 8 had been decent too but can't remember his name).

Regarding the England backrow for SA I think SL will now go with

6. Dowson
8. Morgan.
7. Robshaw

19. Ferns? (covers all 3 positions).

Think Haskell will be given a rest unless there are many more injuries.

Bad luck to Croft and all that, but maybe that'll teach him to work on his tackling approach- he went way way too high and we've said before that poor technique in the tackle gets you injured

Considering the illegal wheel of the scrum he didn't really see Easter until he'd broken from the side of the scrum, at which point Easter was on top of him and chose to cut back on the inside as Croft lowered his head for the tackle. Bad luck for Croft as he was never in a position to make a proper tackle from there, never had chance to set himself properly. I'm sure Cockers was all sympathy afterwards... or maybe not.

Dowson at 6 is a bit workman like and takes away quite a bit of the dynamic attack from the England backrow. Haskell would be better but not sure he'll be available. Perhaps a ball stealing 7 like Seymour.

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Considering the illegal wheel of the scrum he didn't really see Easter until he'd broken from the side of the scrum

I've seen you post this a few times. Normally agree with a lot of what you say, but I can't on this one. Personally I thought that Johnston just got the better of Ayerza at that scrum (which evened out over the match), but in any case the point about Croft not seeing Easter 'till late doesn't hold up. You can see here that Easter is only just getting his hands on the ball, and already Croft is eyeing him up.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/79670345@N02/6985820952/in/photostream

Normally agree with a lot of what you say, but I can't on this one

Let's leave it at scrums are contencious as otherwise the thread may well get hijacked.

Croft is still bound but his head is up, he seemed slow to be getting into position as I watched it live so I presumed he was unsighted. Looks like an error on Croft's part then, tries to guess and presumes Easter will go on the outside away from the scrum with Care and Monye in support but as Easter cuts back Croft's body position is all wrong and head gets caught on the wrong side of the tackle. Ouch.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Dowson at 6 is a bit workman like and takes away quite a bit of the dynamic attack from the England backrow. Haskell would be better but not sure he'll be available. Perhaps a ball stealing 7 like Seymour.

I agree about Dowson, I just think that SL will maybe select him to replace Croft and leave Robshaw at 7.

Yeh I think that's it. Agree it's unlikely people will ever agree on scrum technicalities so maybe just worth ignoring. Shame for England as, while I didn't think he did much at the world cup, he was great in the Six Nations.

Surely Mafi isn't a bad replacement for your run-in though? And I know you've been advocating giving these guys a rest, so in terms of his long term future maybe missing this tour isn't too bad.

If we're down a winger, how about miles benjamin?

Got to be Wade

Thought he was injured?

Unless he got injured again, he is back

Surely Mafi isn't a bad replacement for your run-in though? And I know you've been advocating giving these guys a rest, so in terms of his long term future maybe missing this tour isn't too bad.

Mafi is just as good in the loose, not so good at the breakdown but a more destructive ball carrier. Problem is Croft is the best lineout jumper at the club and Mafi is good but not in the same class so the lineout loses their go to guy when the pressure is on. A lot pressure is then on Parling because with no easy Croft option he's really got to be on the ball in terms of getting clean lineout ball and trying to disrupt the opposition. If anything happens to Parling then we are in the brown stuff as we are down our lineout tactician and our best lineout jumper.

Whilst I wanted him to have a break I also wanted him to have a full pre season which will be unlikely if he's having rehab from neck surgery.

If we're down a winger, how about miles benjamin?

Oi. Hands off. Tigers didn't recruit a promising uncapped winger to replace the international Agulla just for England to nick him! Joking aside he would be a good fit if Flood is playing 10 as Benjamin comes off his wing looking for work and will happily run angles off of Flood's shoulder which Flood used to do with Ashton.

"Whilst I wanted him to have a break I also wanted him to have a full pre season which will be unlikely if he's having rehab from neck surgery"

Yeah Sam you dont want him to get this kind of rest. Its sad as i thought the 6n was his best and most consistant period of rugby for England.

Back row now...hhmmm id love to see:

6 Robshaw
7 Armitage
8 Morgan

But doubt Armitage will get selected...so maybe Launchbury to get a shot at 6. I have always been a huge fan of Dowson...but think he should be a sub option if he goes.

Lawes...well he's a big problem. I think he's in great danger of falling way behind other young Second Rowers coming through. Like ive said in the past...he needs to decide what kind of Second row style he wants to be.

I dont think we'll miss Sharples. We have a lot of talent out wide. May, Wade, Strettle, Benjamin....etc

Hooker? Well with Webber out... I would go with...

Hartley, and two from Young, Lindsay and George. I see no point in taking Mears. If gray is fit possibly...but who knows....

Apart from getting carded for the punch Haskell had a cracking game with some storming runs at the weekend. Probably the best forward on the pitch with ball in hand. The stats seem to back that up, 69m, 2 clean breaks, 5 defenders beaten and 4 offloads.

The Telegraph seems to suggest that Haskell will be included in the SA tour party - good news if true as I think he's really improved his game in the past couple of seasons.

"The touring party will also include back-row forward James Haskell, currently playing Super 15 rugby for the Otago Highlanders. Haskell’s international return, after stints in Japan and New Zealand, offsets the loss to injury announced yesterday of Leicester flanker Tom Croft."

Cleary reckons that Ford is staying at Leicester for pre-season, but that Launchbury, Allen and Joseph are all going.

Cleary reckons that Ford is staying at Leicester for pre-season, but that Launchbury, Allen and Joseph are all going.

Sounds about right. Cockers obviously got his way in the meeting at Welford Rd. Long term a pre season of bulking up and preparing for the first team will do Ford better than getting 20 mins at the end of mid week games. He only turned 19 in March there's no point rushing the lad into international rugby. Launchbury, Allen and Joseph all deserve a crack at the mid week team so it'll be interesting to see how they go.

To me, this year seems different leading up to the June Internationals. In the more recent past, it always seemed a large number of players have been injured or exhausted and can't/won't go on the tour. And that has been accompanied by concerns the June tours are too much Rugby at the end of a long, hard season. Also that winning for NH squads was considered a fluke or virtual impossibility.

This year seems different. Fewer big names are injured and tour squads appear generally stronger. More optimism, perhaps as well.

Is this just my perception? Or does anyone else see it the same?

Lawes Wood Croft all established and could do with a break. Lawes and Wood look like they could definitely do with the time to recover properly from injuries.

Its a shame about Sharples and Simpson (and to some extent Webber) as these are guys on the fringes who would have had a real chance at putting down a marker.

Interesting times

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Cleary reckons that Ford is staying at Leicester for pre-season, but that Launchbury, Allen and Joseph are all going.

Sounds about right. Cockers obviously got his way in the meeting at Welford Rd. Long term a pre season of bulking up and preparing for the first team will do Ford better than getting 20 mins at the end of mid week games. He only turned 19 in March there's no point rushing the lad into international rugby. Launchbury, Allen and Joseph all deserve a crack at the mid week team so it'll be interesting to see how they go.

Agree with you Sam- Give Fordy the summer to bulk up and really prepare himself for what should be a fantastic season of rugby next year. Any word on Tom Youngs and the summer tour yet? Given Webber's injury, Hartley's lack of form, Lindsay's below-par throwing, and the younger options, I think his name should be on the tour sheet.

All out best players are dropping like flies.

Our lineout needed to be top rate to give us a chance in SA. Croft is key and is out.

We've no depth at prop.

Were DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED.

DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED i tell you.

Fear not Triangulation- Geoff Parling is the line out king. It just means more will be resting on his shoulders without the co-King Croft.

A lot of years is the same thing. Players get "injury" before a tour to face the south.

Do you think the players chosing out of the tour and making a reason from all injury? or the coach have a tricky plan about to growing the team and ask these players with some niggle from the club to rest and is easier than make the decision "rotation" the combinator?

Triangulation wrote:All out best players are dropping like flies.

Our lineout needed to be top rate to give us a chance in SA. Croft is key and is out.

We've no depth at prop.

Were DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED.

DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED i tell you.

Lineout will be OK with Parling etc. We have depth at (LH) Prop

anotherworldofpain wrote:A lot of years is the same thing. Players get "injury" before a tour to face the south.

Do you think the players chosing out of the tour and making a reason from all injury? or the coach have a tricky plan about to growing the team and ask these players with some niggle from the club to rest and is easier than make the decision "rotation" the combinator?

Well Croft, Wood, Lawes are all in the playoffs so they're clubs would be pretty foolish to pretend they were injured just so they couldn't go on the England tour (both Croft and Wood have had surgery). Simpson's been out for a while and Webber was badly injured during the 6 nations.

So no, I don't think this is some ploy.

EDIT: And Sharples is part of that rotation so that would also be strange.

Any word on Tom Youngs and the summer tour yet?

He's in the mix and I presume he was discussed when Lancaster went to Oval park to meet Cockers and some of the players. Youngs will bring a lot round the park and is a good scrummager but his lineout throwing isn't international standard. England will gain a lot in terms or power, mobility and aggression (Cockers compared him to Julian White) but any expectations of him going toe to toe with Bismark at the lineout and winning are just delusional. He's improving all the time but he is still developing and not the finished article.

Fear not Triangulation- Geoff Parling is the line out king. It just means more will be resting on his shoulders without the co-King Croft.

Normally Geoff calls it and Tom jumps it. Parling is a handy jumper himself (see the final play of the 2010 GP final) but he uses Croft a lot because Croft gets up so quickly. As long as Parling is there we'll have a working lineout but the likes of Robshaw and Botha are going to have to do a lot more jumping.