Extra players for the SA tour

I expect (and hope) that the EPS from the 6 nations will be selected for the South Africa tour. Lancaster suggested on RugbyClub that a squad of 40 would be going (is this official yet?). So rather than putting together a whole new squad, which players would you add?

Current EPS

Forwards (18)
Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
Callum Clark (Northampton Saints) - Bannned
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers)
Louis Deacon (Leicester Tigers) - Replaced by Geoff Parling expect to continue
Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Lee Mears (Bath Rugby)
Ben Morgan (Scarlets)
Tom Palmer (Stade Francais)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Matt Stevens (Saracens)
Rob Webber (London Wasps) - Injured
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)

Backs (14)
Chris Ashton (Northampton Saints)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
Charlie Hodgson (Saracens)
Joe Simpson (London Wasps)
Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby)
David Strettle (Saracens)
Maunsamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

So that's 30 players. We need another 10 (probably a hooker and a backrow player replacement minimum). These 10 players include replacements for Webber and Clark (so 8+2)

Assuming you would take 6 more forwards and 4 more Backs .......

Forwards. (Excuse the spelling)

PDJ
Attwood
Kvesic
Haskell (if available)/ Waldrom
Chris Brooker
Joe Launchbury

Backs.

Burns
Care
Wade/Monye
12Trees


David Paice In for Webber
Armitage in for Clark

If the Tigers proceed as they have been doing, I wouldn't be surprised to see Anthony Allen and perhaps even George Ford to be included.

Sadly, due to his tenuous connections with England, also Thomas Waldrom.
Plus 36 (But that's going to be Glaws' problem by then).

For some reason the Tigers have a record of being the 'go to' side when it comes to RU England.

Stuart Lancaster: “Then we’ve got the likes of George Ford and these younger lads who are coming through now. Why wouldn’t we take them to South Africa potentially? That is the type of mindset we need to adopt in this country and I think we have been loath to do that.”

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Ford, Launchburry and Wade in the midweek games. Marler is bound to play in them as well.

thomh wrote:
I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Ford, Launchburry and Wade in the midweek games. Marler is bound to play in them as well.

I think Marler has been in excellent form recently, and had benefited greatly from the input of Rowntree in the England camp. His scrummaging this weekend against Leicester has to be on top form, and I can't wait. Now that his scrummaging seems to be consistently improving, he's starting to really really push for a starting role in the squad.

bluestonevedder

I think the turning point was around the new year. Our scrum took an absolute pasting against Saracens at Twickenham (as it did most weeks for the last four years), leading to Fairbrother replacing Johnston in the starting line up against Exeter. Fairbrother had an awful first half and Johnston came on and shored it up. Since then I can only remember one or two games where they haven't dominated the scrum (Northampton and Toulon). Bizarre how much it has turned around. Leicester are the best scrummagers in the league though, so if they can get parity this weekend then it will be a huge effort.

Definitely thomh, this weekend should be huge and I can't wait for it. His work in the loose should come in really handy against SA this summer.

After the Ireland game I can't see them changing the Corbisiero/Hartley/Cole combination lightly though. If those three are fit then Marler will only get on the bench if they trust Corbisiero at tighthead enough that they can take a gamble on Cole not getting injured. Of course they might just think that Stevens isn't in form, so his ability to play both sides is redundant.

Although I think the EPS will largely remain in the enlarged squad, it's worth noting that under the agreement with the clubs, Lancaster is allowed a freehand in selecting the EPS this time, not the limited changes he was a allowed midseason when he took over.

Brooker is out for quite a while I think.

There are two sorts of players who should be going on top of those in the EPS. Injury cover and developmental players. Whether you use your development players as injury cover is a risk. I'd say sod it. Sounds like Lancaster will do the same.

timhen, I think sticking to the EPS will be self-imposed. There may be the odd change (e.g. Hodgson for Burns?) but not much.

I would love Marler and Brown to get used in SA in one of the tests. In terms of additional players, I would love to see a back 3 in a midweek game of Wade, Brown and Sharples.

I think the 10 extra players should be 5-5 backs and forwards, plus replacement for Webber and Clark. The forward : back ratio is currently good. Add another forward at the expense of a back and it is skewed. I'd have another prop, hooker, second row, flanker and 8, then another scrummie, fly half, IC, Then 2 players who between them cover OC, wing and FB

Or the IC can cover 10 and/or 13 as well giving 3 players for wing, OC and/or FB

Wade Brown Sharples could be a really threatening back three. My only concern is with Sharples' defence...when he started for England against France, I thought it looked a little suspect, and this would be exposed by the Boks.

Yeah but Brown is a rock in defence

I know Brown is, but surely having a winger who is a bit of a defensive liability is a recipe for disaster against the Boks....?

Anyone know how good Wade's defence is? I've not seen him do anything wrong there, but when someone is that small there's a tendency to worry about it. Is he positionally and technically solid?

Whenever I've seen him he's been pretty solid. He's well-built for his height, so doesn't shy away from defensive duties.

Wade is pretty good defensively, he's small but his shortness actually gives him a good low tackling position and a lot of strength. Last week he was tackling Monye who isn't exactly a small winger.

Sharples' defence isn't the best part of his game but Brown's cover tackling is top notch and should cover for any misses Sharples makes, letting him worry about what he does best- score tries

i would like to see jonny may involved in the midweek matches. for me he has the x factor and we need to see if we can use that with england. Sharples as well deserves good game time, i have never rated strettle to be honest and i think sharples could press his claim for the shirt.

marler is another one who should be heavily involved. if, and its a big if, he can prove he can scrummage to the required standard we could have a great fight for the 1 shirt between him and corbs, who has been excellent.

i would like to see wade tour, simply because he is one of those players who seems to generate excitement, and his scoring record is incredible. he could be a fixture on the wing in a years time.

I think Marler has been in excellent form recently, and had benefited greatly from the input of Rowntree in the England camp. His scrummaging this weekend against Leicester has to be on top form, and I can't wait. Now that his scrummaging seems to be consistently improving, he's starting to really really push for a starting role in the squad

Corbs was heavilly talked up ahead of his clash with Cole but was lucky to escape a YC for multiple infringements as Cole gave him a torrid time at the scrum. If Marler can improve on that then he will be definitely holding his hand up for selection.

Personally I'd like to see Cole, Stevens and Corbs rested this summer anyway as there is almost literally no experienced cover other than Stevens and Payne who are both woeful at the scrum. The likes of Marler, Mullan, Wilson and PDJ need to be given game time to increase experience and competition.

Agree about resting Cole and Corbs, but I think Stevens should go just to prove what he actually can do. I'm not a fan of his at all, and think he's unfit, out of shape and just a penalty machine. Marler, mullan and PDJ would be my choices to go definitely.

I think Stevens probably needs a summer off to sort his conditioning and technique out. A hard month of international fixtures is not going to help him in those areas. Similarly Ben Youngs needs to be given the summer to sort his conditioning and sort out that knee and make sure he's all good for next year. The guy barely trained before the RWC because of knee surgery and then got thrown into heated internationals, even the enforced month of rest his club insisted on hasn't seen back to his very best. These aren't the only ones either. Any player who played 3 games in the RWC and 6N should be given the summer off.

I'd look at it this way. Lancaster won't be changing his match day squad much, so the 22 will vaguely be (with bench players likely to start):

Corbisero
Hartley
Cole
Botha
Parling
Croft
Robshaw
Morgan
Dickson
Farrell
Strettle
Barritt
Tuilagi
Ashton
Foden

Stevens
Gray
Palmer
Dowson
Youngs
Flood
Sharples



On top of that you need a midweek XV and if 40 is going to be the squad size, 3 extra places (likely to be forwards as we're going to SA):

Marler
Paice (lots of injured hookers)
PDJ
Lawes
Garvey
Fearns
Wood
Waldrom
Care/Spencer (depending on policy)
Burns
May
36 (will probably be JTH given he was selected in the 6N, I'd take them both in a squad of 41, with 36 acting as extra cover for FH)
Joseph
Wade
Brown (I know he consistently made the 6N bench, but I think he'll be given the game time of the midweek matches and act as an anchor for a young backline)

Mullan/Wilson (I'd actually like to see them both go and Stevens dropped, but don't think Lancaster will)
Robson
Launchbury/Gibson

Midweek front five of:

Marler
Lindsay
PDJ
Attwood
Lawes

Sounds fantastic to me. Loads and loads of physicality in there

[quote="niwatts"]I'd look at it this way. Lancaster won't be changing his match day squad much, so the 22 will vaguely be (with bench players likely to start):

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Dickson
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I had enough trouble not spluttering into my tea over your omission of Flood.

Bit Dickson ?

Yeravinalarf!

I suggest you adjust your spectacles and check again, I didn't omit Flood.

The match day squad I presented in my preamble to answering the OP question wasn't my personal opinion. The proviso of mine you quoted clearly states that (right or wrong) I don't believe Lancaster will change his 22, so I gave the squad (minus the injured) he selected for the final matches of the 6N, with the exception that I actually included Flood over Hodgson and then stated that the bench players were just as likely to start.

yappysnap wrote:Midweek front five of:

Marler
Lindsay
PDJ
Attwood
Lawes

Sounds fantastic to me. Loads and loads of physicality in there

How's attwood's form been recently?

On recent form Flood might have forced his way back into the starting XV. It will be interesting to see whether Hodgson goes. We could see Flood, Farrell and then Ford or Burns, with whichever of Flood and Farrell is on the bench for the tests starting the midweek games, and Ford or Burns on the bench for those.

I think Mullan should be in the equation for LH...a real quality prop who can scrummage and cant half move in the loose....anyone remember his tackle on Hook...

I'd take:

Current EPS

Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
Kvesic (Callum Clark - Out)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers)
Geoff Parling(Louis Deacon - Injured)
Fearns (Phil Dowson Drop)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Matt Garvey (Add)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Gray - Quins (Lee Mears- Drop)
Ben Morgan (Scarlets)
Tom Palmer (Stade Francais)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Doran Jones (Matt Stevens - Dropped)
Jaime George (Rob Webber - Injured)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Matt Mullan - Add
Henry Thomas TH (Add)

Christian Wade (Chris Ashton - Rest and get sorted with his transfer)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
Charlie Hodgson (Saracens)
Ford or Burns (Add)
Joe Simpson (London Wasps)
Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby)
David Strettle (Saracens)
Johnny May (Add)
George Lowe (Add)
Maunsamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins)
Spencer (Ben Youngs - Rest)
James Fitzpatrick (Add)
Twelvetrees(Add)

Yes I remember the tackle (in the old-er EDF). Very funny. Had injury problems with shoulders, which isn't good for a prop.

Who's Henry? Henry Thomas (Sale prop?) He's been injured, is he back now? He seems to have been out for quite a while.

Overall would be pretty happy if that was the squad

Ah yeah Henry Thomas...i actually didnt realise he had been out...havent seen much of sale this season but i know he was impressive when he's played... and we need to identify some competition for Cole...

I thought Mullan was back to full fitness and playing well....if not we can replace with another second row....

Doran-Jones is probably the best for now. Wilson is another but he doesn't seem to have progressed as hoped. Harden at Gloucester has done pretty well.

According to Premiership website Thomas was out for 3 months and came back last week (and he's still had 27 appearances, not bad for a 20 year old tighthead). He's learning for Buckley, which will help his development I wouldn't be against bringing him along, it's difficult to judge ability when Sale haven't been great over the last few years.

Mullen has stayed fit this year. It's in the past when there have been problems (which is probably the main reason for him not having more caps). Although looking back it seems he missed most of the 09/10 season but that's it (not sure about championship year)

I would replace Stevens with Doran Jones as the guy who can cover both sides as....well he's better all round.

If Thomas is fit and playing well...take him even for the experience...and a few minutes through the week...

Ive changed a number of the forwards from the EPS for various reasons...but whilst i think as a unit we were much more solid than previous years in the pack..i believe there are better invidual players to come in. We can also see how we are at Hooker. I selected jaime George...but i would happily go with Tom Youngs of leicester instead. We need a challenge for hartley.

Also i think Botha needs to be put under pressure by Garvey...

And if the coaches are adamant we need a 7 then they need to look at Kvesic...

Would be happy with either of Jamie George or Tom Youngs going. George is a very promising player, but Youngs is starting to shine too. He's got bags of pace (converted centre), but is also physical and has that competitive hunger. Think he could push Hartley soon.

Agree with you Geordie, Garvey needs to be included. Wouldn't mind seeing both Garvey and Attwood going to fill that enforcer role, but Garvey a little more so.

Kvesic needs to feature soon, or at least just get some experience in the EPS extended squad.