Robert Kitson (of the Grauniad)'s Heino and AP dream teams

My Heineken Cup dream team and outstanding Premiership XV of 2011-12

Already we can ink in a host of players who have proved a cut above, with 10 of the side representing Irish provinces

What does the future of European rugby look like? If it involves games as good as Sunday's mesmerising Heineken Cup semi-final in Bordeaux there will be few complaints. It felt, at times, as if Leinster and Clermont Auvergne were attempting to outdo each other in the same way Olympic divers impress the judges with the technical merit of their routines. The degree of difficulty was, at times, stunning.

The majestic power of Clermont's rugby in the first half and Leinster's dagger-sharp counter-thrust immediately after the interval will dwell in the memory. So too will Leinster's last-gasp defiance when victory was being wrenched from them. Most impressive of all, though, was the ability of so many players to perform at such a high level whilst on a competitive knife-edge. Cometh the hour, cometh almost everyone.

It certainly helped to nail down several positions in a European 'dream team' based on this season's tournament. The Leinster-Ulster finale at Twickenham is still to come but already we can ink in a host of players who have proved a cut above the ordinary. By my reckoning 10 of the side represent Irish provinces which might seem a lot until you study the list of deserving names.

The full team is at the bottom of this piece, deliberately juxtaposed with my stab at the outstanding XV from this season's Premiership. Maybe you would expect the former to look a stronger unit but it serves to underline that the Premiership is no longer an irresistible magnet for the game's superstars. No full-back in the UK, for example, can currently match Rob Kearney. How many scrum-halves can do what Ruan Pienaar does with the same economy of effort? Is there anyone out there on two legs doing what Stephen Ferris does on one?

It takes genuine class even to attempt to play the way Clermont and Leinster did. Did you see the gorgeous offload thrown by the young French up-and-comer Jean-Marcel Buttin? The result might have been different, too, had Wayne Barnes sin-binned a Leinster forward for repeated first-half infringements as he really should have done. The abiding impression, nevertheless, should not be the refereeing but a recognition that the general standard was at least two rungs higher than an average, safety-first Premiership game.

Part of the reason is that the respective thoroughbreds on display, particularly the Irish ones, have been pretty lightly raced. Cian Healy has featured in just seven Pro12 games all season, one of them as a substitute. Even taking the World Cup and Six Nations into account that still leaves a fair amount in the tank for Europe. Ulster's hooker Rory Best has played just four league games. England's Dan Cole, in contrast, is about to play his 12th Premiership match of the season. It might help explain why Irish sides tend to be sharper and better primed for Heineken success at this time of year.

Leinster's triumph, either way, has to be ranked among their finer achievements. Clermont, as we have noted before, are not short of a euro or five. Their squad is littered with serious talent and it would be no surprise if they go on to win the Top 14 title. They lacked two crucial elements, though. One was Brian O'Driscoll, who gave an age-defying performance which could cause even New Zealand to think twice ahead of Ireland's impending series against the All Blacks. The other? Jonny Sexton. One of these days he will play for his country the way he plays for Leinster and the whole world will take notice. Both he and O'Driscoll, despite his injury problems this winter, fully deserve their places in a distinctly Irish-themed Heineken team of the season. The English and the Welsh, irrespective – or maybe because – of this year's Six Nations, are conspicuous by their absence.

Heineken Cup dream team 2011-12: R Kearney (Leinster); I Nacewa (Leinster), B O'Driscoll (Leinster), W Fofana (Clermont), S Sivivatu (Clermont); J Sexton (Leinster), R Pienaar (Ulster); C Healy (Leinster), R Strauss (Leinster), D Zirakashvili (Clermont), B Thorn (Leinster) J Muller (Ulster), S Ferris (Ulster), T Dusautoir (Toulouse), N Talei (Edinburgh).

Outstanding Premiership XV: M Brown (Harlequins); J May (Gloucester), G Lowe (Harlequins), B Barritt (Saracens), J Simpson-Daniel (Gloucester); N Evans (Harlequins), H Thomas (Exeter Chiefs); M Ayerza (Leicester), S Brits (Saracens), D Cole (Leicester), G Robson (Harlequins), M Botha (Saracens), T Croft (Leicester), C Robshaw (Harlequins), T Waldrom (Leicester).

Do you agree? Thorn's inclusion on the basis of just two games seems a tad generous to me. Also only one player not from a semi-final team? Lazy journalism, really a Heino team of the semis?

Thats a stupid article. Agree 100% with your sentiments Asbo.

Well he got the props wrong for a start Ayerza and Afoa for me.

Cant be bothered with the rest to be honest

geoff998rugby wrote:Well he got the props wrong Afoa for me.

I know Afoa arrived early so have to check did he play at all in pool stages.

It would seem crazy to include him based on one match against Munster.

J May and JSD ahead of Wade and Benjamin?

S Brits is a quality player but has not been great this season. Still makes it because lack of challengers.



most consistent fly half IMO has been Charge down Charlie - particularly tearing his old club Sale to shreds, being instrumental in the 50 point demolition at WR and his decisive kicks to beat Saints at VR.

Mouritz Botha has been average this season in the AP.

Johnson should be the blindside.


My team would be

15.Brown
14.Wade
13.Joseph
12.Barritt
11.Benjamin
10.Hodgson
9.Dickson
8.Waldrom
7.Robshaw
6.Johnson
5.Robson
4.Kohn
3.Johnston
2.Brits
1.Marler

I know Afoa arrived early so have to check did he play at all in pool stages.

It would seem crazy to include him based on one match against Munster

Played against Tigers at Ravenhill and played very well indeed. He didn't play against Tigers at Welford Rd earlier in the competition though.

red_stag wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Well he got the props wrong Afoa for me.

I know Afoa arrived early so have to check did he play at all in pool stages.

It would seem crazy to include him based on one match against Munster.

Stag Afoa played in 5 of the 6 group games including the defeats of both Leicester and Clermont.

He was immense in both games so I stick by the claim.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Part of the reason is that the respective thoroughbreds on display, particularly the Irish ones, have been pretty lightly raced. Cian Healy has featured in just seven Pro12 games all season, one of them as a substitute. Even taking the World Cup and Six Nations into account that still leaves a fair amount in the tank for Europe. Ulster's hooker Rory Best has played just four league games. England's Dan Cole, in contrast, is about to play his 12th Premiership match of the season.

No matter how effusive the compliment, the eternal stab is never too far behind.

Now Dan Cole plays with Tigers. He has nothing else to play for this season, he might as well keep playing for AP. Healy has more on his plate and needs his sleep It isn't Healy's fault that poor Cole has played 11 Premiership matches this season - that's the Leicester coach's fault. Meanwhile, Dan played in 6 HC games this season and Healy played in 7 so far with I'm sure one more to go.

That's what in maths? Healy 13 games so far (or parts thereof) - Cole 17 games so far (or parts thereof). 4 games extra this season so far for Cole. How many potential games to go for each player? Healy 4 - Cole 3. So potential total is 20 for Cole and 17 for Healy. Healy plays three games less than Cole and that would be the answer to HC final verses failure to advance in HC?

Best has been carrying a neck injury which is why he has not be selected for a number of games. However being unavailable because of injuries is not a head line grabber like being rested.

So much so he may well not go on tour this summer in order to get fixed.

Healy plays three games less than Cole and that would be the answer to HC final verses failure to advance in HC?

No it's all to do with the bigger Rabo teams being able to rest large portions of their first team during the Rabo season as the HEC is the clear priority where as with England AP and HEC hold equal priority. It's also a good deal harder to qualify for the HEC in the AP as there are only 6 places for 12 teams most of which are at a similar standard but not all of which have the distraction of the HEC.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Healy plays three games less than Cole and that would be the answer to HC final verses failure to advance in HC?

No it's all to do with the bigger Rabo teams being able to rest large portions of their first team during the Rabo season as the HEC is the clear priority where as with England AP and HEC hold equal priority. It's also a good deal harder to qualify for the HEC in the AP as there are only 6 places for 12 teams most of which are at a similar standard but not all of which have the distraction of the HEC.

No, it isn't about principle it's about truth. The principle is always trotted out and I've done a read out on the true detail of Cole V Healy. You can use creative language to suggest Cole will have played a lorry load more rugby than Healy this year but the facts won't hold up the theory. So let's do the truth trip for all players (those out for rest rather than injury) and see how the truth holds up the eternal principle thrown at Pro12.

Again I say that we are not responsible for how Premiership clubs conduct their league or choose where and when their 6 HC qualifiers come from. That's their business - they have many ways to make that a less contentious one for the clubs and an easier ride. It's their business how they conduct HC entry.

Finally, you say HC is a priority for Pro12 sides - so why are Leinster chasing away with league postion this year, using their young guns? You'll say because they can do that because the other sides are also using their young guns during Pro12. Certainly not true for all sides but let's pretend you're right. All sides in Pro12 use their young guns for Pro12 and their big guns, well rested, for Heineken.

if that were true, then there's another solution to Aviva Premiership problems. Use young upcomings throughout the clubs for Premiership kudos and save the big guns for HC. Kill two birds with one stone. But you'll say, no - can't do - too much at stake, can't trust the other sides to use young guns so we end up naming big guns each week. I say, so do many of the Pro12 sides and still sides like Leinster and Munster choose to risk a smattering of young in with some of the big guns to advance in Pro12 - and it still works mostly.

Again I say that we are not responsible for how Premiership clubs conduct their league or choose where and when their 6 HC qualifiers come from. That's their business

It is and we like it that way. Just don't expect us to join the Rabo stance that the HEC is the be all and end all of club competition though.

geoff998rugby wrote:

red_stag wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Well he got the props wrong Afoa for me.

I know Afoa arrived early so have to check did he play at all in pool stages.

It would seem crazy to include him based on one match against Munster.

Stag Afoa played in 5 of the 6 group games including the defeats of both Leicester and Clermont.

He was immense in both games so I stick by the claim.

In that case I'd agree Geoff. Just thought he might have only had the one game.

What about that Godzilla fella from Montpellier? I'd have him in the HC team. What a monster. I think he's Georgian.

Yup, Mamuka Gorgodze: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBPe-QvwD7g&feature=related

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Again I say that we are not responsible for how Premiership clubs conduct their league or choose where and when their 6 HC qualifiers come from. That's their business

It is and we like it that way. Just don't expect us to join the Rabo stance that the HEC is the be all and end all of club competition though.

I'm just after illustrating that HEC is NOT the be all and end all of club competition for the Pro12 sides. Leinster wants both this year and have fought for both this year. I don't see how Munster and Leinster continually fighting for Pro12 AND HEC is those sides laughing off the Pro12 league. It means as much to them to win Pro 12 as it does the HEC - no not more than HEC but wanting both is the lure at the beginning of each season. Both, not one at the expense of the other.

You say we like it that way - the AP way. That's fine - but your journalists and commentators and many of the fans don't see it that way. They like to point out the 'unfairness' of Pro12 sides 'resting' players and, horror of horrors, actually prioritising the biggest club competiton in Europe.

SecretFly wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Again I say that we are not responsible for how Premiership clubs conduct their league or choose where and when their 6 HC qualifiers come from. That's their business

It is and we like it that way. Just don't expect us to join the Rabo stance that the HEC is the be all and end all of club competition though.

I'm just after illustrating that HEC is NOT the be all and end all of club competition for the Pro12 sides. Leinster wants both this year and have fought for both this year. I don't see how Munster and Leinster continually fighting for Pro12 AND HEC is those sides laughing off the Pro12 league. It means as much to them to win Pro 12 as it does the HEC - no not more than HEC but wanting both is the lure at the beginning of each season. Both, not one at the expense of the other.

You say we like it that way - the AP way. That's fine - but your journalists and commentators and many of the fans don't see it that way. They like to point out the 'unfairness' of Pro12 sides 'resting' players and, horror of horrors, actually prioritising the biggest club competiton in Europe.

Just by the by, but it's entirely possible that the pursuit of the Brennus in T14 and Pro D2 is the biggest club competition in Europe, in terms of popularity, income, participation and desirability of the participants.

Do you know how many players Exeter used this season. I know they have a squad that is much of the same level but they competed very well on both fronts

There is no way that there is more prize money in the T14 then the HC.
TV deals have to be bigger to

I thought you said Leinster were playing their young players in the PRO12?

so why are Leinster chasing away with league postion this year, using their young guns?

I guessing (and this is a big assumption) that by young players you mean their second team. Is that right? Just because your second team is better than most 1st teams doesn't mean you prioritise both. Of course playing your younger player for more of the league doesn't mean you don't prioritise it either. It could easily be you giving suffucient rest for you top guys (to keep them fresh for ALL competitions) knowing that their replacements are good enough. Doesn't really mean anything. Nothing does

Brendan, there was a rumour (I never saw it confirmed) that teams got more from playing in the Anglo-Welsh than they did in the HEC. That was before it was an international window competition.

EDIT: And who cares what journalists and commentators say or think? They mostly talk Poopie all day every day. Every now and then one drops a gold nugget but it's rare.

Feckless Rogue wrote:What about that Godzilla fella from Montpellier? I'd have him in the HC team. What a monster. I think he's Georgian.

Apparantly Sean O'Briens been sleeping with the lights on since playing Montpellier...... ......

There's an article on Planet Rugby 'Team of the Weekend', which I think is basically what Kitson is looking for minus one Toulouse player.

Neither O'Driscoll or Thorn played in the pool stages!

My team;

1. Marcos Ayerza (Leicester)
2. Rory Best (Ulster)
3. John Afoa (Ulster)
4. Nathan Hines (ASM Clermont Auvergne)
5. Paul O'Connell (Munster)
6. Stephen Ferris (Ulster)
7. Thierry Dusatoir (Toulouse)
8. Nick Easter (Harlequins)
9. Ruan Pienaar (Ulster)
10. Jonathon Sexton (Leinster)
11. Tim Visser (Edinburgh)
12. Wesley Fofana (ASM Clermont Auvergne)
13. Aurelien Rougerie (ASM Clermont Auvergne)
14. Isa Nacewa (Leinster)
15. Rob Kearney (Leinster)

It is very heavy on the semi-finalists but I think it also takes into account some of the outstanding players of the group stages. Maybe finding it hard to find a place for Mike Brown of Harlequins, Tom May of Gloucester, Fabrice Estabanez of Racing Metro, Timoci Matanavou of Toulouse, Greig Laidlaw of Edinburgh and Nateni Talei of Edinburgh.

It is semi-finalist heavy; 10 players from the four semi-finalists. So sorry.

SecretFly wrote:They like to point out the 'unfairness' of Pro12 sides 'resting' players and, horror of horrors, actually prioritising the biggest club competiton in Europe.

Secret, the issue is not that they do prioritise, it is that they can. I am sure that AP clubs and fans would like to have the option to take the foot off the gas in the AP to be ready for a big HEC game the next week. But they can't, because the competitiveness of the AP means that every game counts. On Saturday, the last game of the season, there will be only one game out of the 6 being played where neither team stands to gain or lose anything by the result.

The only real solution for AP clubs, denied the size of squad that the French can accumulate, is to build up their academies to the extent that they have more capacity for squad rotation. That takes time. Quins have been building their academy for nearly 10 years now and are just reaching the point where 1-2 players a year are emerging and competitive at AP level. We have maybe 3-4 positions where genuine squad rotation is possible and a couple more where we might get there in a year or two. But it's a long haul and relies on players being prepared to stay at a club and accept lower wages than they could earn elsewhere, and very careful management of the salary cap.

All of which is fine, and I wouldn't change it given the constraints of the English club structure. What rankles is fans from other countries either not acknowledging that English clubs do have a structural disadvantage right now (the "with so many registered players" argument) or insisting that there's a quick fix (the "the RFU should make the AP work more like the [insert local structure here]" argument).

This year's 6N shows that England is capable of fielding players and tactics that are good enough to compete with the best in Europe. The problem is that the clubs are constrained in their ability to do that on two fronts.

My (blatantly bias) selection would be

Healy
Best
Afoa
Muller
Hines
Ferris
Henry
Talei
Pienaar
Laidlaw/sexton
Visser
Fofana
Cave
Nacewa
Kearney


Took all my strength not to include wanneburg too

[quote="Poorfour"]

SecretFly wrote:

Secret, the issue is not that they do prioritise, it is that they can. I am sure that AP clubs and fans would like to have the option to take the foot off the gas in the AP to be ready for a big HEC game the next week.

Be serious are you telling me Leicester,Sarries or Quins couldn't afford to rest a few players somewhere in the season if they really wanted to.These three could easily finish top 6 and prioritise the HC but they choose to try and win both comps and in all honesty no other English club had a snowballs chance in hell of winning it this year.

The argument about resting players was actually more convincing last year when Saints got to the final but this year none of the English teams would have done any better by being more rested.Leicester were hammered by Ulster in Belfast and lost away to Clermont.Quins were knocked out by a Connaught team on a 12 match losing streak and with a squad so small and injury hampered that made the fact they could compete never mind win amazing.Sarries meanwhile were battered at home by one of the best teams in Europe,I don't see how a bit more rest for the English teams would have changed anything except possibly the Quins/Connaught match but even then you'd have to wonder at how far Quins could go if they needed to be rested to beat a Connaught team who were in such trouble at the time.

Mick cleary wrote. Pretty good article today basically sayin that when England was producing guys like dallaglio an Johnson and were dominating HEC the premiership was steeling these guys perfectly for knockout rugby. Now they aren't as competitive they a using it as an excuse.

The reality is that after a phenomenally successful period the paramount teams of te English game are in transition and aren't up to the standard of the Irish at present. It is cyclical though. Munster have had a rough couple of years by their standards too and when Bod goes Leinster will have to adapt, albeit they seem better prepared to continue that success. Excuses aren't good enough.

The English have a problem with squad depth, when you compare them to the Irish and French. The English can't pay the wages that French clubs do because of the salary cap. And they think they introduce home grown talent into the team in the league like the Celtic teams do. It's one or the other.

1. Increase the salary cap.
2. Produce more home grown players and trust them to play in the league and win.

You seem to making out that home grown players are cheaper than bringing them in. If the home grown players are good and could get into another premiership's first team they're paid more to move on. If the home team wants to keep them they have to up the wage (see Twelvetrees at Leicester).

The IRFU control the movement of players within Ireland don't they? If players want to play for Ireland history has suggested that they need to stay in Ireland (although that's probably because only the 'average' ones leave). There are several benefits in the Irish system that helps the provinces retain their players.

Changes in the salary cap and the current RFU payments will hopefully help the clubs retain these players. Also if the EPS smoothing is stopped it'll help those teams with England players to keep them.

Here's a major change I'd suggest (after not thinking it through at all). Should the RFU start trying to actually buy English clubs that are in financial difficulty and try and run them in a similar way to the provinces?

That way they keep the traditional clubs and avoid the pitfalls of fake franchises, but also gain some of the control that the provinces have, especially if they got to the stage where they owned the majority of the teams.

If the IRFU can run 4 branches, couldn't the RFU run 8? Or maybe more? Feel free to pick holes in this suggestion because like I said, I haven't thought it through.

It has been mooted before (I think when Bristol were relegated). I'm not sure how feasible it is in real terms (since I have no idea about business stuff or shares or anything). It's possibly that fans would be alienated. They would still have to go along with the PRL on things (unless they can get their own deals sorted through the RFU). It's a tricky one but I certainly wouldn't be against it if possible. It would take a huge investment from the RFU (only failing clubs would be up for sale as it were).

I would like them to look into the English rugby league requires that someone else posted. It follows along the same lines as the new French rules and possibly the Irish ones. Basially that certain number of players have to have been developed locally, a certain number developed in England and then a maximum number of players developed abroad. That's how they get round the EU laws because they have to be English just developed by the English system. So G Murphy may count as he went to Tigers at about 18. Chris Wyles would count as he was 11 when he moved to the UK, even though he's capped by US. Hape, Waldrum, Flutey, Barritt etc wouldn't count even though capped by England. Not sure about Botha as he never played professional rugby in SA (I don't think).

Coming back to this one (and reading a few of the replies to my comments of yesterday) I see that again its complaints about why Irish sides in particular can compete in Europe and when it's pointed out in clearer terms why, the whole subject is waved away by the dismissive "The HC really isn't the biggest club competition in Europe as regards desire to win it anyway"

That may be so - but then the question comes up again, why the complaints in English papers about the 'unfairness' of Irish Provincial pursuit of the HC. If the Irish guys want it - and nobody else really cares (in England and France) then why not leave them to it? Why the constant complaints from journalists and indeed the headman of English club rugby itself?

The complaints are because behind the bluff that it doesn't matter to English and French clubs - it very much does. Bragging right ALWAYS mean something to proud rugby clubs and when you have a competition that involves the best sides from three respective leagues and six respective rugby nations then of course it hurts when your club doesn't advance in such a competition because you miss out in the end of year pan-Europe bragging rights.

It very much does matter - bragging rights are all very well, but it also matters on a much more potent and strictly business sense - to be named best club side in Europe is sponsorship clout, it's money, it's endorsement, it's kudos for the players and their career prospects.

Of course HC is more important than either AP, Top14 and Pro12 to both players, backers and sponsors.

People aren't saying it doesn't matter to the clubs. But it doesn't matter as much as qualifying again the next season (one way is to win it but those that struggle for qualification don't have a chance anyway). Once you're in you get a share of the pot. It matter more to the top clubs (especially the like of Leicester, I bet it kills them to go out in the pools) simply because they have the squads that can compete reasonably in both. However at the beginning of the season Leicester were really struggling and were 11th at one point. If Leicester hadn't qualified for HEC Cockerill probably would have been sacked. If he failed to get in the playoffs he may have been sacked. Now he's managed to get in the 2 top (and will stay there if they beat Bath at home) he'll definately stay. The fact he didn't get them out of their pool is a secondary concern (for everyone involved in the club, players, coaches, senior managers, sponsers, everyone).

That may be so - but then the question comes up again, why the complaints in English papers about the 'unfairness' of Irish Provincial pursuit of the HC. If the Irish guys want it - and nobody else really cares (in England and France) then why not leave them to it? Why the constant complaints from journalists and indeed the headman of English club rugby itself?

I don't know if that's a serious question but I'll answer it anyway.

Journalists - because the talk Poopie almost all the time and don't actually have any real link to anyone but themselves. Journalist say a lot of things, doesn't make them true or relevant

Headman of English club rugby himself - because his main role is getting a 'better' deal for his clubs, regardless if what he wants is fair or 'right'. If he can slightly weaken the PRO12 sides and get more Jeff teams int he quarters then he'll be happy. He also has to negotiate deals with tv companies and if he said most of the clubs have HEC as a second priority it may annoy Sky

Of course HC is more important than either AP, Top14 and Pro12 to both players, backers and sponsors.

Whatever you say boss [tug forelock] Sorry to have disagreed boss. Won't happen again boss

I came across an interesting stat (stat alert ) on Wiki ( ) recently.

The all french HC final two seasons ago was watched by 3.2 million on French free-to-air TV, while the T14 final last season was watched by 4.4 million on free-to-air and pay TV.

That's a fairly direct comparison between the popularity of the two competitions to the French public. I'd suggest that where the public go, so sponsors, backers, etc tend to follow.

Feckless Rogue wrote:The English have a problem with squad depth, when you compare them to Munster and Leinster and French.

Fixed it for you - Ulsters squad is smaller than the bigger English clubs.

Also to burst this resting myth.
One of the reasons given for Leicester defeat at Ravenhill was that Ulster could rest players and Leicester could not.

I then proceeded to burst this myth by showing Leicester rested as many players between rounds 4 and 5 as Ulster.
The claim that Pro12 sides rest players and Aviva teams dont is often claimed but never backed up by facts.

The reality is the likes of Saracens and Leicester do employ a level of rotation as well.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:The English have a problem with squad depth, when you compare them to Munster and Leinster and French.

Fixed it for you - Ulsters squad is smaller than the bigger English clubs.

Also to burst this resting myth.
One of the reasons given for Leicester defeat at Ravenhill was that Ulster could rest players and Leicester could not.

I then proceeded to burst this myth by showing Leicester rested as many players between rounds 4 and 5 as Ulster.
The claim that Pro12 sides rest players and Aviva teams dont is often claimed but never backed up by facts.

The reality is the likes of Saracens and Leicester do employ a level of rotation as well.

Good man Geoff. End of conversation really.

mankiaow wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:The English have a problem with squad depth, when you compare them to Munster and Leinster and French.

Fixed it for you - Ulsters squad is smaller than the bigger English clubs.

Also to burst this resting myth.
One of the reasons given for Leicester defeat at Ravenhill was that Ulster could rest players and Leicester could not.

I then proceeded to burst this myth by showing Leicester rested as many players between rounds 4 and 5 as Ulster.
The claim that Pro12 sides rest players and Aviva teams dont is often claimed but never backed up by facts.

The reality is the likes of Saracens and Leicester do employ a level of rotation as well.

Good man Geoff. End of conversation really.

Apart from the inconvenient fact that the starting Leicester XV and XXIII had considerably more gametime than the Ulster equivalent in the 3 games preceding their HC round 5 encounter. The myth of myth-busting was busted.

I'm not one for facts to get in the way of entrenched opinion, though, but how those opinions are sustained in the face of some of the league team selections in the build up to the HC knockouts is beyond me.

HammerofThunor wrote:People aren't saying it doesn't matter to the clubs. But it doesn't matter as much as qualifying again the next season (one way is to win it but those that struggle for qualification don't have a chance anyway). Once you're in you get a share of the pot. It matter more to the top clubs (especially the like of Leicester, I bet it kills them to go out in the pools) simply because they have the squads that can compete reasonably in both. However at the beginning of the season Leicester were really struggling and were 11th at one point. If Leicester hadn't qualified for HEC Cockerill probably would have been sacked. If he failed to get in the playoffs he may have been sacked. Now he's managed to get in the 2 top (and will stay there if they beat Bath at home) he'll definately stay. The fact he didn't get them out of their pool is a secondary concern (for everyone involved in the club, players, coaches, senior managers, sponsers, everyone).

That may be so - but then the question comes up again, why the complaints in English papers about the 'unfairness' of Irish Provincial pursuit of the HC. If the Irish guys want it - and nobody else really cares (in England and France) then why not leave them to it? Why the constant complaints from journalists and indeed the headman of English club rugby itself?

I don't know if that's a serious question but I'll answer it anyway.

Journalists - because the talk Poopie almost all the time and don't actually have any real link to anyone but themselves. Journalist say a lot of things, doesn't make them true or relevant

Headman of English club rugby himself - because his main role is getting a 'better' deal for his clubs, regardless if what he wants is fair or 'right'. If he can slightly weaken the PRO12 sides and get more Jeff teams int he quarters then he'll be happy. He also has to negotiate deals with tv companies and if he said most of the clubs have HEC as a second priority it may annoy Sky

Of course HC is more important than either AP, Top14 and Pro12 to both players, backers and sponsors.

Whatever you say boss [tug forelock] Sorry to have disagreed boss. Won't happen again boss

Nice little Lep motif at the end there. I'll take it it means something?

I repeat Hammer.
Headman wants a better DEAL by having more HEC involvement. Why? Money, influence, kudo, sponsors.
Journalists talk through their hat. And yet get quoted long and hard by the 'fans' - who don't rightly care.
Being better than your neighbour DOES mean something. It means enough that you'd deny the fact when you're not.
If Irish sides begin to falter in HC (and it's a real prospect - we haven't our heads buried in the pot'a'gold, to be sure, to be sure) - when they begin to falter, we'll all be saying that we've taken a few years out of HC to 'concentrate' on the bread and butter Pro12 - after all, it's what the fans want

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:
Apart from the inconvenient fact that the starting Leicester XV and XXIII had considerably more gametime than the Ulster equivalent in the 3 games preceding their HC round 5 encounter. The myth of myth-busting was busted.

I'm not one for facts to get in the way of entrenched opinion, though, but how those opinions are sustained in the face of some of the league team selections in the build up to the HC knockouts is beyond me.

English clubs have won the Heineken Cup six times. And of course, in the old days, when they were winning regularly, that was also the time when HC sides actually won because they were simply better than the others.

I'm with you, I don't like this new rule that you have to be a side that simply prioritises HC to be allowed entry into the knock-out stages lately. I prefer the old rules that allowed you to simply be better.

SecretFly wrote:
I'm with you, I don't like this new rule that you have to be a side that simply prioritises HC to be allowed entry into the knock-out stages lately. I prefer the old rules that allowed you to simply be better.

cracker fly!

geoff998rugby wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:The English have a problem with squad depth, when you compare them to Munster and Leinster and French.

Fixed it for you - Ulsters squad is smaller than the bigger English clubs.

Also to burst this resting myth.
One of the reasons given for Leicester defeat at Ravenhill was that Ulster could rest players and Leicester could not.

I then proceeded to burst this myth by showing Leicester rested as many players between rounds 4 and 5 as Ulster.
The claim that Pro12 sides rest players and Aviva teams dont is often claimed but never backed up by facts.

The reality is the likes of Saracens and Leicester do employ a level of rotation as well.

Yes Saracens and Leicester do employ a level of rotation which is probably why they are two of the strongest English sides.

It was Ulster and Clermont who dispatched Leicester. Clermont who dispatched Saracens. One a finalist, the other a semi finalist. They were not knocked out by the weaker sides in the HC so there is confidence for next season.

Each English club needs to have a good hard look at themselves to see what they can do better.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

mankiaow wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:The English have a problem with squad depth, when you compare them to Munster and Leinster and French.

Fixed it for you - Ulsters squad is smaller than the bigger English clubs.

Also to burst this resting myth.
One of the reasons given for Leicester defeat at Ravenhill was that Ulster could rest players and Leicester could not.

I then proceeded to burst this myth by showing Leicester rested as many players between rounds 4 and 5 as Ulster.
The claim that Pro12 sides rest players and Aviva teams dont is often claimed but never backed up by facts.

The reality is the likes of Saracens and Leicester do employ a level of rotation as well.

Good man Geoff. End of conversation really.

Apart from the inconvenient fact that the starting Leicester XV and XXIII had considerably more gametime than the Ulster equivalent in the 3 games preceding their HC round 5 encounter. The myth of myth-busting was busted.

I'm not one for facts to get in the way of entrenched opinion, though, but how those opinions are sustained in the face of some of the league team selections in the build up to the HC knockouts is beyond me.

In the forwards there was no difference (which is the key area with respect to gaining a benefit from resting players) and in the backs the difference was marginal.
Games started was almost exactly the same.
Using the word considerable is a joke.

The myth of the myth of the myth-busting has just been busted.

Any Leicester fan claiming that Leicester's were disadvantaged by Ulster indulging in more player rotating than themselves, between Rounds 4 and 5, is like the Emperor with no clothes

[quote="beshocked]Yes Saracens and Leicester do employ a level of rotation which is probably why they are two of the strongest English sides.

It was Ulster and Clermont who dispatched Leicester. Clermont who dispatched Saracens. One a finalist, the other a semi finalist. They were not knocked out by the weaker sides in the HC so there is confidence for next season.

Each English club needs to have a good hard look at themselves to see what they can do better.

[/quote]

Finally some honest opinions and I'd agree with it in total. It's been my point all along.
No, Irish sides are not amazingly better than their English, French or even Welsh opponents;
No, English sides do not get bored when they hear the word HC - they want to win it as much as the eventual winners do;
Yes, with a little luck and a little more rotational organisation, English or French, or Welsh, or Scottish, sides could easily be finalists and winners as early as next season.

Just let nobody in England who follows an historic club tell me they don't care about HC - that's the bit that rankles with me. They do, they wish their side could win it - and the top sides in England could easily win it...even with their 'committments' to AP.

The Irish teams do have the advantage of having the Pro12 (a less important league) to rest players. Don't deny the truth.

On the other hand - so what. It's up to the English and French teams to overcome this obstacle.

Look at what we can do better - more rotation possibly, look at where are gameplan and positional weaknesses.

Leicester lost to Ulster because they were beaten by the better team on the day.

Saracens got beaten badly by Clermont because Clermont on the day were simply better.

Do I think Ulster and Clermont are much better sides than Leicester and Saracens? No, just smarter and more savvy on the day.

Saracens in particular really need to sort out the gameplan - get a proper outside centre,sort out the prop situation and being more attacking. There must be a Plan B. Plan A is effective against most sides but not against the best.

beshocked wrote:The Irish teams do have the advantage of having the Pro12 (a less important league) to rest players. Don't deny the truth.

Less important certainly to English and French clubs. Less important to English and French club players. But why so 'less important' to the teams in it?

Explain?

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:The Irish teams do have the advantage of having the Pro12 (a less important league) to rest players. Don't deny the truth.

Less important certainly to English and French clubs. Less important to English and French club players. But why so 'less important' to the teams in it?

Explain?

The bread and butter for the Pro12 teams are obviously the internationals and most importantly the Heineken Cup. You only need to look at the amount of times the likes of Sexton,Heaslip,SOB,Kearney have played in the Pro12 compared to the HC. To be fair they are used for the Munster games - the only games deemed of importance.

Ferris and Best - 4 Pro12 games. 8 HC games this season. Hmmm I wonder which is more important.... the Pro12 or HC.

Geoff,
correct me if I'm wrong, but you reckon that you have busted a myth that Rabo teams rest their players more than AP teams do in their respective leagues. You have done this on the basis of Ulster and Leicester teams in the 3 games prior to their Round 5 HC encounter.

I dispute your busting because:
1. Leicester XV and XXIII had considerable/marginal more gametime than Ulster.
2. The singular situation of Ulster does not represent the plurality of the Rabo as a whole, nor does Leicester, the AP.
3. The 3 games were held in the congested fixture window of the New Year, and is not representative of the whole season (and hopefully will never be repeated in either league).
4. Neither your analysis of starts/gametime, nor mine, took account of enforced absences through injury.

In short, I believe that you have not proved or myth-busted whether there are more players rested in either league. Nor have I, nor do I seek to.

I'll let others continue the perennial Rabo v AP squabble, but, if there is an advantage in resting players, and if teams feel able to rest players, then why not celebrate it, rather than deny it. The better teams seek, obtain and exploit small advantages both on the field and off it - good player management is no different.

geoff998rugby wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

mankiaow wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:The English have a problem with squad depth, when you compare them to Munster and Leinster and French.

Fixed it for you - Ulsters squad is smaller than the bigger English clubs.

Also to burst this resting myth.
One of the reasons given for Leicester defeat at Ravenhill was that Ulster could rest players and Leicester could not.

I then proceeded to burst this myth by showing Leicester rested as many players between rounds 4 and 5 as Ulster.
The claim that Pro12 sides rest players and Aviva teams dont is often claimed but never backed up by facts.

The reality is the likes of Saracens and Leicester do employ a level of rotation as well.

Good man Geoff. End of conversation really.

Apart from the inconvenient fact that the starting Leicester XV and XXIII had considerably more gametime than the Ulster equivalent in the 3 games preceding their HC round 5 encounter. The myth of myth-busting was busted.

I'm not one for facts to get in the way of entrenched opinion, though, but how those opinions are sustained in the face of some of the league team selections in the build up to the HC knockouts is beyond me.

In the forwards there was no difference (which is the key area with respect to gaining a benefit from resting players) and in the backs the difference was marginal.
Games started was almost exactly the same.
Using the word considerable is a joke.

The myth of the myth of the myth-busting has just been busted.

Any Leicester fan claiming that Leicester's were disadvantaged by Ulster indulging in more player rotating than themselves, between Rounds 4 and 5, is like the Emperor with no clothes

So selected players from selected positions and selected clubs from a selected period show no difference in rest periods? We came extrapolate from that. Myth definitely busted

The PRO12 is less important to me and how do I know that anyone else truly exist? I don't therefore it is a less important league. That's philosophy that is. Also, if Cipriani scored a try in the woods would anyone see him dance?

Ulster do not, by and large, rest players for Pro 12 matches.

Ferris and Best are both carrying injuries which may require them not to go to New Zealand.
This year we have clearly put out weakend teams on just two occassions - against Leinster over the Christmas period (when there was only a 4 day gap between matches) and against Connacht (which was after our hardest game of the season at Thomond Park in the QF and many players were out on their feet at the end). The reality is our smallish squad is struggling a little and we have , at least 4 players, trying to get fit for the final.

We were trying on both fronts up and until the end - look at the side we had against Leinster - but our lack of depth finally got exposed. At that Leinsterr game we lost an invalueable player for the SF - Chris Henry and 2 more key players - Wannenberg and Wallace - got injured. If the match did not matter those guys would not have played.

We will not risk most players against Munster, as it is a dead game for us, but given our squad size we were trying to finish as high as possible in the Pro12 and not getting into the play offs is a disappointment.

Whilst Leinster do, successfully, rotate a lot of players because their 2nd XV is so strong I do not accept that Ulster, Munster, Ospreys rotate anymore than Leicester, Saracens, Saints. If that is the claim being made then I believe the onus is on the claimants to look at a complete season, taking into account non availability from injuries and Internationals, and determine when each team does not put out their strongest XV.

In fact if a supporter from each of the other 5 teams is compared to keep their record then I would gladly maintain the Ulster records. Anyone up for the challange for next Season ?

HammerofThunor wrote: The PRO12 is less important to me and how do I know that anyone else truly exist? I don't therefore it is a less important league.

Compared to the Pro 12 the Aviva is less important to me - your point is

beshocked wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:The Irish teams do have the advantage of having the Pro12 (a less important league) to rest players. Don't deny the truth.

Less important certainly to English and French clubs. Less important to English and French club players. But why so 'less important' to the teams in it?

Explain?

The bread and butter for the Pro12 teams are obviously the internationals and most importantly the Heineken Cup. You only need to look at the amount of times the likes of Sexton,Heaslip,SOB,Kearney have played in the Pro12 compared to the HC. To be fair they are used for the Munster games - the only games deemed of importance.

Ferris and Best - 4 Pro12 games. 8 HC games this season. Hmmm I wonder which is more important.... the Pro12 or HC.

That's an explanation of how 'some' of the Pro12 teams approach the league - not an explanation of how 'less important the league is'.

For your theory to work you need to suggest that Leinster and perhaps Munster and Ospreys are always so stuffed with quality players that they can afford to rest their more experienced players and still compete in the Pro12 with their second string/young rookies. You'd have to assume that because none of those sides sacrifice Pro12 to HC. Look at the records of the competition and look who are habitually on top. You don't say a league is less important when you're designing your season to win it.

What you're really saying is that AP is more competitive. More teams with a chance of winning it. Well, no. Best sides in AP are still best sides...poor sides in AP are as poor as the poor ones in Pro12. So there is always a small enough unit close to the top of AP that are competing for the title - no relegation worries, just concentration on the top. Besides, if they always play their best players then of course it will be.... competitve. But schoolboy rugby is competitve when you get two equal sides lashing into each other. Competitveness doesn't necessarily mean quality and it certainly doesn't have to mean 'important'.

So where do the young players that cover for the Leinster big boys learn their trade to compete in the man's event of HC? They play in the Pro12, just as you say. But no, they don't take the competition lightly - that's their shop window for promotion. That's their time to show what they can do, a time to catch the attention of the coach, a time to perform and a time to win something for their team. Leinster take the Pro12 very seriously. Coming half way down in the league would be a bad year... because coming half way down in a league would be suggesting lack of progress in the young hopefuls needed to be up to HC standard. They are learning how to be that standard not in the HC itself but in Pro12.

Being the best is the motivation - not the specific league. League is best when fighting for league - HC is better when fighting for it. One produces the desire for the other. And as I said, the same trail appeals to all English players who want AP titles AND would love some HC ones too.

Geoff you only need to look at how few games the likes O Gara,O Connell play.

Compare Botha of Saracens against O Connell of Munster

Botha has played 16 AP games, 6 HC games.

O Connell has played 5 Rabo games and 7 HC games

Owen Farrell vs Ronan O Gara


O Farrell has played 15 AP games, 7 HC games

Ronan O Gara has played 6 Pro12 games (2 being vs Leinster), 7 HC games