Ask the Tart: Archive 1

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Thread archived from https://www.606v2.com/t2445-ask-the-tart - Kiwireddevil

CrippledTart wrote:
By popular demand (Miky), here is a v2 verson of my 606 thread "Ask Me Ref".

As stated on the 606 version, this isn't just for people to ask me questions (I do not consider myself to be the biggest wrestling genius in the world contrary to the impression you get from some of my posts!), it's for people to ask questions and ANYONE who knows the answer to provide it.

This is not an opinion thread, per se. It is for those random wrestling musings you may have had but never got the answer to.

So if there's anything you ever wondered about wrestling, and never knew who to ask, go for it.

Bobby Roode wrote:If Hogan and Bischoff could create their perfect wrestler, who or what would it be like?

Hero wrote:2. Austin.
He’s widely regarded as one of if not the greatest ‘star’ to grace the industry. Whilst Hogan & HHH are often derided by the IWC for using their influence and power backstage, Austin seems above derision. Firstly what abuse of politics has Austin been guilty of, and why does he not fall into the Hogan/HHH category in the eyes of the IWC?

Good question. Steve Austin definitely used his political clout at times, but it was when he thought something was bad for business. Triple H and Hogan have a tendency to bury wrestlers they see as a threat, whereas Austin to my knowledge never acted that way.

He was fiercely protective of his character, and a student of the industry who had a good idea of what was good and bad for business. He was also accused of being paranoid at times.

Austin refused to work programmes with Jeff Jarrett and Billy Gunn in the summer of 1999. Gunn because he didn't rate him, Jarrett because the two had personal heat over Jarrett criticising the "Austin 3:16" gimmick as blasphemous. There were rumours he wouldn't put over Triple H in 1999 as well, but these are believed to be unfounded (he did a job for him at No Mercy). He also refused to do the job in an unadvertised match with Brock Lesnar on Raw in 2002, arguing that it would be bad for business. Austin's logic was that, as the biggest name in the company, it would have more effect if Brock ran through others on his way to a big PPV showdown between the two, where he would be happy to put Brock over.

The business he did in 1998 and 1999 was phenomenal, and meant that he had no political challengers. However Triple H's ascendance led to tension, and Austin felt insecure in his spot as the top guy. This led to a drastic change around 2000, when he suddenly became harder to work with. Austin did not take well to Vince having a new favourite, and protected his territory any time he felt challenged. He did not last much longer as a full-time main eventer, mainly because of his condition but also largely because the situation had diminished his passion for wrestling.

Another key was Austin's character: He was the toughest guy in the room. He took on all kinds of numbers and usually won. This made incredible money but did not lend itself to putting others over. In fact the WWF didn't want him doing jobs to anyone when they could help it - even tainted ones - while so much money was rolling in. Austin's character was dominant, not just physically but also in that he took up everyone's attention. This was a big plus for the WWF in his peak run, but in his latter years it became a hindrance. As the sheriff, when he was for all intents and purposes retired, he undercut every wrestler he came into contact with. And without great feuds to sink his teeth into, his promos suffered, he relied more on the tired beer drinking routine, and became something of a parody.

Austin didn't boost an awful lot of careers, but it wasn't with malice. Therein lies the difference between him and Triple H or Hogan. For the most part, he did what he thought was right for business.

Haha touché

So Vince didn't like the fact that Morrison didn't react when Batista shacked up with Melina.

But when Matt Hardy made a fuss about Edge and Lita, he was fired?!

My opinion on Morrison is that he's got the look and the flashy moves, but he doesn't seem genuinely tough. His matches don't look like fights. Plus he is an awful promo. In addition, while he looks like a rock star, he doesn't act like one; he comes across as a bit of a nerd. There is something very awkward about him.

I'm not saying I don't enjoy his matches, but I don't see him as a guy who is being held down. I would imagine that a few of these criticisms are universal not just amongst many fans but also the top people in WWE.

But if anyone says he's the 9th greatest wrestler of all time that's entirely their opinion and nobody is allowed to argue.

Bastion Booger is the 9th, and if you've got a problem with that mate then........

Spoiler:

The difference was that Matt Hardy took it public and (in Vince's mind) it shattered the illusion that the WWE was one big, happy family.

-----

Putting aside the issues of Morrison as a promo (horrible) and whether or not he has 'it' (he doesn't) you could ask "How can Vince say John Morrison doesn't come across as tough enough (see what I did there?!) to be a World champion when he made World champions out of Shawn Michaels & Jeff Hardy?"

The thing is, Michaels came across as a scrapper. Jim Ross put in best when he said that HBK was like a pit bull, he didn't know how big or little he really was.

With Jeff it was more of a never say die attitude, he never knew when he was beaten and just kept on coming back for more, unless he had a t-shirt to throw around or a personal demon to confront.

For me, John Morrison doesn't have either of these qualities that Michaels and Hardy had.

Bang on Y2D2, and as a result Morrison has now fallen to 11th on the greatest wrestlers of all time list (below Bastion Booger and Hooch. Turner is 18th).

18th? WTF?!?!

Snooki is obviously 18th on the list man!

Did you see that Thesz press?! That's where Stone Cold Steve Austin learned it from!

theundisputedY2D2 wrote:18th? WTF?!?! :shock:

Snooki is obviously 18th on the list man!

Did you see that Thesz press?! That's where Stone Cold Steve Austin learned it from!

She could Thesz press me anyday of the week!

Any idea why Hogan jobbed to The Rock at Wrestlemania X8 but would job to Michaels at Summerslam?

Wasn’t Hogan doing the job to Rock part of sticking it to Austin who he was originally pencilled in to face yet refused to do the job to?
From what I am aware of with HBK the plan was that it was going to be a pair of matches with Hogan winning the first and HBK the second. Hogan though wouldn’t agree to the 2nd so HBK oversold all of Hogan’s offence in their SS match.
I xcould be wrong on both accounts though!

No, you're spot on.

It's also one of my favourite SS matches.

I love the look on Hogan's face all the way through it. It's a mixture of annoyance and confusion all in one.

Also, having done the deed for Austin (twice) and Triple H at the previous three Wrestlemanias, Rocky deserved his victory there.

You've got to remember Hogan's political standing at the time. He had no power going into WM18, he knew he was lucky to have got another chance in WWE and didn't want to make waves. It was a humbling situation for all of the NWO as they were back to just being wrestlers.

He did not refuse to job to Austin as far as I know. The story I heard was that Austin refused to work with Hogan at all. Hogan really had no say in who he worked with and who won. If he'd created waves, he knew that Vince could humble him afterwards and taint his legacy for the rest of his contract.

The Michaels situation was different; he'd agreed a short term deal and the match was set in stone as the advertised PPV main event, so he had them by the balls. Hogan knew that WWE needed him. It was also a chance to flex his political muscle against one of the greatest politicians of all time. Similar to the question about Austin yesterday, the simple fact was that Hogan played hardball because he could.

Crips,

Recently Hogan leaked news about Jimmy Hart joining the WWE. As we all know, WWE were seriously peeved about this, with rumours abound that they planned on showing clips of Hogan and Flair losing on RAW, but why did the WWE not do this, does Vince still hold Hogan in some sort of regard?

King Beer wrote:Crips,

Recently Hogan leaked news about Jimmy Hart joining the WWE. As we all know, WWE were seriously peeved about this, with rumours abound that they planned on showing clips of Hogan and Flair losing on RAW, but why did the WWE not do this, does Vince still hold Hogan in some sort of regard?

I don't think it's anything to do with this, although I'm sure that the two would be prepared to do business together again. There were probably two bigger factors that put him off. Firstly, that WWE is trying to hype Wrestlemania at the moment and he would be reluctant to waste time and energy (and TV time) finding shots of Hogan and Flair losing. The second is that they are in TNA, and Vince wouldn't want to highlight wrestlers from another promotion, even if the clips were of them losing. Vince probably also knows that it would be quite pointless. As petty as he might be at times, it might have felt too petty even for Vince.

I've no doubt Vince still holds Hogan and Flair in some regard, although he probably sees them as traitors for going to TNA (as ridiculous as that sounds). You can be pretty sure their paths will cross again at some point, and if there is money to be made everyone will be the best of friends again.

I thought they did do it. I remember seeing Hogan taking a few beatings in some of the Undertaker/HHH vignettes. Well, when I say beatings, one was of that horrible chokeslam @ JD 2002.

Oh right, they might have done it. I suppose if they're putting together a few highlight packages of other wrestlers they might have included clips of them beating Hogan and Flair.

I haven't watched every minute of recent Raws so I may very well have missed it (I watch it Hobo-style).

Crips,

Heard a rumour that 'The greater power' wasn't originally due to be Mr McMahon (it didn't make sense he'd have his own daughter kidnapped) & it was gonna be Jake Roberts any details on this, who knows if this had of played put maybe HHH & Steph wouldn't be married today?

Brady12 wrote:Crips,

Heard a rumour that 'The greater power' wasn't originally due to be Mr McMahon (it didn't make sense he'd have his own daughter kidnapped) & it was gonna be Jake Roberts any details on this, who knows if this had of played put maybe HHH & Steph wouldn't be married today?

The Higher Power was not decided until days before the reveal on Raw. I've heard rumours that Jake was offered the role; Mick Foley was definitely offered it as well, and maybe Shawn Michaels.

The WWF went with Vince because he was literally the only person available. Which explains why the angle made no sense whatsoever. Originally the Austin/Vince feud was supposed to be finished as of WM15.

This was typical of Vince Russo's booking and remains so today. In Russo's mind it is more important to set up a big mystery storyline than to know what the resolution is. It makes me cry a little bit when people talk about the Higher Power angle as a great moment in WWF history...

You guys may not know this but here goes.

Does Vince ever feel any remorse for what antics have happened in the past and does he actually befriend anyone in particular that he is the boss of? I know on 606 i got told that he has been to past concerts with Cena. Is he really as nasty as people make out? If there are any genuine good things he has done to perhaps help anyone, can anyone shed any light on them for me please?

I think Vince is quite an insensitive person in general, and doesn't feel a great deal of remorse for treating people badly, but that doesn't mean he is completely evil. I'm sure there are people close to him who would say he's the most wonderful man in the world. In fact from reading a lot of books by wrestlers and interviews with them, the majority seem like they would walk over broken glass to please him.

Vince loves screwing around with people. Sometimes it's light-hearted and sometimes it's mean-spirited, and sometimes he screws around with people by being nice to them! He loves the power that he has, and loves to abuse it. But I'm sure he also loves his grandchildren, and like all of us he cares more about certain people than others.

He is exhibit A of what happens when a country is obsessed with greed and money. He's a characature of the self-made, heartless, stinking rich American entrepeneur. Part of that stereotype is having no conscience when it comes to matters of money. But it's too black and white to say that because he operates his business with no conscience (unless it is profitable to do so) he is 100% evil.

I was watching the first ever cruiserweight final the other day from In Your House DX between Brian Christopher and Taka. Before the match they posted the tournament brackets and the only other name I noticed was Scotty 2 Hotty - who were the other lads, were they just there for a one night stand sort of thing? I can't remember...i'm sure I remember that some were from different organisations from Mexico, Japan (Taka) etc...

They had to bring these guys in because the WWF didn't have any light heavyweights. Jerry Lynn was named in the original bracket and he didn't even know about it until after he'd made a commitment to join ECW!

Did Jerry Lynn actualy wrestle in it - I don't remember seeing his name.

No he didn't wrestle in it because he'd already committed to ECW. He was sitting at home watching RAW and saw his name on the very first tournament bracket. Not long after he got a call from Jim Ross, who was head of talent relations at the time, asking if he wanted to come in for the tournament and maybe for longer. Lynn had to turn it down because of ECW then JR said no worries, once you're done with them give us a shout.

How shoddy!

To be honest that's the kind of thing that WCW used to get slated for all the time, like the time they built up Rick Steiner as a 'mystery man' over a few weeks and then the day of the big reveal he was nowhere to be found because they hadn't bothered telling him!

Good reading a lot of the stuff been posting - some of you guys are very knowledgable on this subject.

Now, my question is ..

Do the WWE have some form of scouting system? I mean they obviously need find up and coming guys who they sign to the FCW fed. Who does the 'scouting'? Or is it unknown guys behind the scenes?

Davieswasacrippledtart wrote:
But if anyone says he's the 9th greatest wrestler of all time that's entirely their opinion and nobody is allowed to argue.

anything said on here is up for debate unless you tell us it isn't and proceed to tell us how correct you are followed by another brilliant analogy

AberdeenSteve wrote:Good reading a lot of the stuff been posting - some of you guys are very knowledgable on this subject.

Now, my question is ..

Do the WWE have some form of scouting system? I mean they obviously need find up and coming guys who they sign to the FCW fed. Who does the 'scouting'? Or is it unknown guys behind the scenes?

I'm not sure whether they actually employ a scouting system where they send people out to scour the globe looking for talent but I think it's more of a case whereby the talent department has built up a list of contacts who'll get in touch with them and say "You need to take a look at this guy". Then it's a case of sending someone to have a look and see if whoever it is has all the tools that WWE look for in a wrestler.

Oh yeah, to add to that Steve WWE occasionally have open tryouts as well.

The direction for scouting talent definitely changed, the WWF/E used to look at American Footballer's and Body builders now though they are more intrested in Actors and Models which you can thank Johnny Ace for

Thanks Y2D2! I did think it would be the sort of situation where they had guys on the indy circuits that would say like you said "you need to take a like at X, Y and Z." Even though they aren't really looking for someone all that talented in the ring anymore. I can see them starting to pick up actors and train them basic wrestling. Which is a shame

I think that, like a football scouting system, WWE has a network of contacts who keep in touch with college wrestling and college football. You also have to remember that there are a lot of wrestling schools around, so any trainers with a good relationship with WWE will keep them informed of promising talents who come through their schools.

I have heard that only Taker and Kane are able to deliver a safe tombstone and are the only 2 wrestlers allowed to, is this correct?

I imagine this is because of the piledriver issue with Stone Cold.

There are probably others who can do it safely as well Miky but WWE banned piledrivers and the like a few years ago, long after the Stone Cold incident. But the reasoning was to avoid situations like that Austin's injury.

I can't remember if there was a particular incident that triggered the ban, maybe it just came to Vince one day. Taker and Kane, as old hands are allowed to do the Tombstone and Shawn Michaels was allowed to use a piledriver from time to time but I think for everyone else it's a no-no.

It'll be interesting to see if Jerry Lawler uses the piledriver at Wrestlemania, it's been his main finisher throughout his career. More likely though Austin will hit the Stunner on Cole then Lawler will either pin him straight away or hit the fist drop from the second rope.

Cheers Y2

Didn't Mick Foley do a sort of piledriver move?

Also...

Can a Heel still be the top guy? Like Cena for example at the moment is a huge babyface and Vince's top guy but if he were to turn heel then would he be top guy still?

Yeah Mick Foley did a pile driver where instead of hooking them around the waist and lifting them, he'd grab a hold of the back of their tights and lift them. It was called a stump-puller piledriver.

A heel can still be the top guy if he keeps drawing TV ratings and PPV buyrates, but there's of course the likelihood that their merchandise sales will drop off. As long as he makes the most money then it doesn't really matter if he's a face or heel, he'll be the main man.

Holymiky wrote:Also...

Can a Heel still be the top guy? Like Cena for example at the moment is a huge babyface and Vince's top guy but if he were to turn heel then would he be top guy still?

I'm presuming you mean the number one wrestler? ("Top guy" is an expression that means a proven main eventer; Cena, 888, Undertaker, etc are all top guys). If so, that is a very interesting question.

Other territories, notably the NWA/WCW, promoted around the heel as the perennial long-term champion and number one wrestler. Buddy Rogers, Harley Race and Ric Flair are three good examples. The idea was that fans would pay more to see a babyface chase the title than to hold it.

WWE, for pretty much its entire history, has always been a company that revolves around babyfaces. In the years that Bruno and Hogan were champions it almost didn't matter who they were wrestling; they sold the tickets on their own. Vince has always liked to have one or two babyfaces who are pushed as bigger stars than the rest, eg Hogan, Savage, Warrior, Bret, Michaels, Austin, Rock, Triple H and now Cena.

The only long-term exception to this rule was the period around 2002-2005 after the brand split, when the heel Triple H dominated Raw. I think this was a combination of many factors (Austin and Rock unexpectedly left, the company had failed to create new stars, anyone with any backstage power wanted to be on Smackdown as far away as possible from Triple H) and the fact is it did not work, commercially or creatively.

Vince tried turning his number one star before, when Austin went heel at WM17. This was also a commercial and creative failure, although that can partly be blamed on the fact that the fans didn't want to boo Austin.

However, I think in the case of Cena, WWE has played the situation so well that a heel run could draw huge numbers. They have held off and held off for years, and created a Hogan-like situation where a heel turn would be monumental. We also know the fans would love it. The only problem is that there are no babyfaces for him to feud with. That, I think, is why we haven't seen the heel turn yet. The company knows that if they turn him heel, they'll either have to go back to Cena-Orton or Cena-888 or Cena-Edge, all of which are feuds we've seen before, or put him against the likes of John Morrison, Kofi Kingston, Evan Bourne or others in the second tier.

The only feuds Cena could have as a heel, which might draw exceptionally well, are against Undertaker and Rey Mysterio. But in reality WWE needs to see Cena's heel run as lasting two to three years; two feuds against fragile veterans will leave him a lot of free time in those two to three years.

The only other option is if The Rock comes back to wrestle, but even then I don't see him ever returning full time.

I think WWE would only turn Cena heel if they had another babyface who could be the next top guy. The heel Cena would remain the number one star to begin with, but the babyface would eventually beat him and take over as number one. So essentially, I think the long-term answer is no. Cena would definitely be the top heel, but I don't think that he would remain the long-term number one guy if he was turned.

From what’s ever increasingly coming out from the dirtsheets is that the Rock is now wanting a proper feud with Cena and the Miz post Mania including a number of matches.

Apparently he has said in interviews that he'd like to wrestle again. I don't see him returning full time but if he plans to stay around semi-regularly for the next 6 months to a year, it's their best opportunity yet to pull the trigger on the Cena heel turn.

Thank's Crippled, the question was asked because since i have been thinking about all this Cena heel turn stuff i would still like him to be successful because of how much of a company man he is and never causes any trouble etc it seems.

He deserves every bit of success he gets. Also with what you said the fans would love it, how do you mean? The fans would boo him of course but only some adults will love it when hes a heel. I feel there is just genuine hatred for Cena heel or face which i don't agree with. Are you able to explain this to me?

Davieswasacrippledtart wrote:Apparently he has said in interviews that he'd like to wrestle again. I don't see him returning full time but if he plans to stay around semi-regularly for the next 6 months to a year, it's their best opportunity yet to pull the trigger on the Cena heel turn.

Agreed, it's either that or Taker.

I think they should go the Megapower route if that is the plan. Have Cena and Rock gradually earn each other's trust and respect and then Cena turns on him.

Supplementary question to the top guy one.

You mentioned that the wrestlers get a cut of merchandise sales and that people are less likely to buy your stuff if you are heel.

Is it therefore not better to be a midcard face than a topline heel?

On a similar note, would someone like Santino be getting paid more than Alberto Del Rio?

If Cena turned heel he'd probably eventually end up getting cheered by a lot of the adult audience, provided that what he did was entertaining.

Back when he was doing the rapper gimmick the fans turned him babyface because they decided he was 'cool'. There was very little talk of how he couldn't wrestle or had fake looking punches or only knew 5 moves, all the talk was of how awesome his latest rap was.

Fast forward to his run as a face and all you hear is "Cena's promos are rubbish" or "Cena can't wrestle" or "I hate Cena's Superman gimmick" or "I hate the way Cena's geared towards kids". If you turn him heel then you eliminate most of the things that cause the adult fans to hate him.

As a heel he can't use the 'Superman gimmick', he's going to have to sell for his opponent and show weakness at times. Plus the heel is usually the one who leads matches in the ring so he'd have to do a lot more work. His promo style would have to change. You couldn't make him marketable to kids any more. The only thing that maybe can't be wiped out in a heel turn is his phony looking punches.

But if Cena ends up being good as a heel then the IWC and the more mature wrestling fans will end up praising him. Just look what happened with Batista and his heel run last year.

I don't think there's a lot of hate for Cena as a person, a lot of times you'll hear someone say "I don't hate Cena himself, he seems like a nice guy and does a lot for the WWE and charities etc. but I hate the 'Superman' gimmick/5 Moves of Doom/fake punches/childish promos".

Thanks all and thanks again Y2

I have always said i would still follow Cena Face or Heel so bring on a heel turn if that's what's going to happen, if not then i will continue to enjoy his babyface role!

Hobo wrote:Supplementary question to the top guy one.

You mentioned that the wrestlers get a cut of merchandise sales and that people are less likely to buy your stuff if you are heel.

Is it therefore not better to be a midcard face than a topline heel?

On a similar note, would someone like Santino be getting paid more than Alberto Del Rio?

The thing with that though Hobo is that the top line heel will get a bigger slice of the pay per view bonus pie. The wrestlers get paid according to their position on the card so a main-event heel will get more than a mid-card babyface.

I wouldn't have thought that Santino would be getting a bigger downside guarantee than Del Rio, simply because Alberto was groomed for stardom from the beginning. He might have been on something lower during his FCW days but once he got called up to the main roster there either would have been a renegotiation of his contract or there'd have been a clause in his orginal contract e.g. once you get called up to the main roster your downside guarantee will become $$$$'

No problem Miky!