Playoff time - Tigers vs Sarries - Saturday 12th May 17:30 KO (Build-Up)

Sarries team announced:

Saracens line-up vs Leicester Tigers

15 Alex Goode
14 David Strettle
13 Owen Farrell
12 Brad Barritt
11 Chris Wyles
10 Charlie Hodgson
9 Neil de Kock
1 Rhys Gill
2 Schalk Brits
3 Matt Stevens
4 Steve Borthwick ©
5 Mouritz Botha
6 Jackson Wray
7 Will Fraser
8 Ernst Joubert

16 Jamie George
17 John Smit
18 Carlos Nieto
19 Hugh Vyvyan
20 George Kruis
21 Richard Wigglesworth
22 Adam Powell
23 James Short

Tigers team

15 Geordan Murphy (c)
14 Horacio Agulla
13 Manusamoa Tuilagi
12 Anthony Allen
11 Alesana Tuilagi
10 Toby Flood
9 Ben Youngs
1 Marcos Ayerza
2 George Chuter
3 Dan Cole
4 George Skivington
5 Geoff Parling
6 Steve Mafi
7 Julian Salvi
8 Thomas Waldrom

Replacements
16 Tom Youngs
17 Logovi'i Mulipola
18 Martin Castrogiovanni
19 Graham Kitchener
20 Craig Newby
21 Sam Harrison
22 Billy Twelvetrees
23 Scott Hamilton



Not really my bag - the playoffs - so first I'll just congratulate the Quins on being Regular season champions.

However tickets seem to be selling pretty well but I don't know that it will be a full house.

But I want a Leicester victory not so much as a on-eyed Tiger, but just to express my opinion regarding the Sarries season-long negative approach.

Portnoy wrote:Not really my bag - the playoffs - so first I'll just congratulate the Quins on being Regular season champions.

However tickets seem to be selling pretty well but I don't know that it will be a full house.

But I want a Leicester victory not so much as a on-eyed Tiger, but just to express my opinion regarding the Sarries season-long negative approach.

The Press benches at the Stoop are full - sadly the v2Journal ranks too low for me to get a pass this week. The Twickenham IRB 7s are on this weekend too, the area will be busy.

Oh come on Portnoy. You wouldn't want Saracens to win even if they were playing exciting attacking rugby. It's only right to want your own team to win.

Would you want Quins to beat Tigers in the final if both get there? I doubt it!

My thoughts are:

Saracens are the side most capable of beating Tigers at WR - probably in Europe.

Leicester will deservedly start as favourites as the form team in the AP, at home, baying for Saracen's blood.

It will be very interesting to see how both sides play.

In my opinion Saracens have to go on the attack, Leicester's attack has been excellent this season but they have leaked tries defensively.

Hanging back will just allow the big Leicester pack to slowly build momentum and pummel us into the floor.

Will Flood be fit?

beshocked wrote:
Would you want Quins to beat Tigers in the final if both get there? I doubt it!

He probably would. Though bearing in mind how much he has complained about the league fixtures being unfair as they took place during the WC, it would perhaps be stretching the dogmatic belief in the league winners as champion to perverse levels.

Will Flood be fit?

50/50

He is 50/50 as is Salvi, both of whom are absolutely crucial. Myself and Sam both wanted Flood rested last weekend and it looks like his selection might come back to haunt us. If he isn't fit then Cockerill has a huge decision to make, Ford or 36. Knowing Cockerill and his conservatism (in selection) he will pick 36 and in such a big game its understandable but I would pick Ford. 36 won't be there next season and Ford has to play in these games at some point so why not now?

Salvi is a real concern as well, he has been magnificent this year and we don't have anyone who can play 7 like he does.

I believe there are a couple more concerns but those are the major doubts.

Will Flood be fit? I don't know. Depends on what the medics say and whether there would be difficult consequences if he does. But there is some half-decent back-up for the 10 shirt.

It will be interesting to see the game.

Knowing Cockerill and his conservatism (in selection) he will pick 36 and in such a big game its understandable but I would pick Ford. 36 won't be there next season and Ford has to play in these games at some point so why not now?

36 is a great attacking threat if good ball can reach him. Being big, strong and fast with the passing skills for an international 10 he can cause a lot of damage playing flat with good quality ball, not as much as Flood but he is certainly a good option. What he isn't good at is the tactical game and against Sarries that will be key, Twelvetrees might be able to go toe to toe with the Sarries big ball carriers but Hodgson and Farrell will simply out kick him tactically and from the tee. Ford can go toe to toe with Hodgson and tactically out kick Farrell, though he won't out kick either from the tee. Ford offers a pretty nifty attacking game as well especially against rush defences and played very well in a team taking a trouncing earlier in the season (including a 50m break cutting the Sarries defence in half) but isn't physical in defence.

Basically Tigers need Flood which is why he should have been rested last week!

Killer938 personally I feel you should go for Twelvetrees if Flood is injured.

Ford has a lot of potential but in my opinion this is too big a game to risk him - this is much bigger than the LV. If he starts and has a mare his confidence will be shot.

On the other hand he wouldn't have the likes of Burger and Brown bearing down on him so the pressure on the fly half is less than it would be if these two brutal backrowers were available.

Big plus for Tigers is that Brits and Joubert aren't in the finest form. Obviously you know that without Brits playing out of his skin in the final last season Saracens would have lost.

So with Burger,Brown,Saull and Melck all out in the backrow and with Brits and Joubert off form a lot of pressure is on the likes of Borthwick,Barritt and Hodgson to galvanise the rest of the players.

Beshocked the Borthwick vs Parling ariel battle should be fun. Parling will be missing his able leutenant Croft just as Borthwick will be missing Burger so the lineout really should be an interesting watch at the two lineout operators really go head to head.

Ford has a lot of potential but in my opinion this is too big a game to risk him - this is much bigger than the LV. If he starts and has a mare his confidence will be shot

He's not really the head down and lose confidence type of player, he's more like Wilko in that he seems to remove emotion from his game. It's one of the reasons Tigers are so hopeful of his potential because he already has the mind set and leadership of a 50+ cap international 10. If he had the body of one and not of a 12 year old boy he'd already be Tiger's and England's first choice.

Sam Joubert is a key lineout jumper for Saracens, more so than Burger.

The lineout was woeful vs Exeter though - Brits had a mare throwing - two overthrows in particular stood out.

It's funny because before that game it was virtually the only aspect of Saracens game that was still functioning properly. It worked well vs Clermont,Quins,Newcastle and London Irish but was a shambles vs Exeter.

Exeter didn't even pressure it - all self inflicted.

That's the problem though Sam. Physically Ford doesn't match up well.

Hodgson's defence has now been tightened up so he's no longer the liability it was.

Putting Ford vs Hodgson would be tough - we know what happened in their last encounter.

Putting Ford vs Hodgson would be tough - we know what happened in their last encounter

Tigers couldn't field a loosehead in their last encounter and had all of two regular first teamers on the pitch if I remember rightly (Chuter and Salvi). Ford still sliced open the Sarries defence for a great break past Hodgson (with no support, bloody typical at the start of the season) and was far from the worst in defence *cough* Scott Hamilton *cough* so it wouldn't be that bad to include him. He stood up well against Bath and Saints who both threw the kitchen sink down his channel in the LV Cup where Bath and Saints rocked out their first teams. He certainly doesn't lack courage in defence and with Allen in at 12 will be given a good defensive organiser.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Putting Ford vs Hodgson would be tough - we know what happened in their last encounter

Tigers couldn't field a loosehead in their last encounter and had all of two regular first teamers on the pitch if I remember rightly (Chuter and Salvi). Ford still sliced open the Sarries defence for a great break past Hodgson (with no support, bloody typical at the start of the season) and was far from the worst in defence *cough* Scott Hamilton *cough* so it wouldn't be that bad to include him. He stood up well against Bath and Saints who both threw the kitchen sink down his channel in the LV Cup where Bath and Saints rocked out their first teams. He certainly doesn't lack courage in defence and with Allen in at 12 will be given a good defensive organiser.

Do Mafi,Allen ,Twelvetrees and Hamilton not count as first team regulars?

Sure chuck Ford in against Hodgson ( I hope Saracens pick Hodgson to start with De Kock).

If Hodgson is given license to play he's deadly.

beshocked wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Putting Ford vs Hodgson would be tough - we know what happened in their last encounter

Tigers couldn't field a loosehead in their last encounter and had all of two regular first teamers on the pitch if I remember rightly (Chuter and Salvi). Ford still sliced open the Sarries defence for a great break past Hodgson (with no support, bloody typical at the start of the season) and was far from the worst in defence *cough* Scott Hamilton *cough* so it wouldn't be that bad to include him. He stood up well against Bath and Saints who both threw the kitchen sink down his channel in the LV Cup where Bath and Saints rocked out their first teams. He certainly doesn't lack courage in defence and with Allen in at 12 will be given a good defensive organiser.

Do Mafi,Allen ,Twelvetrees and Hamilton not count as first team regulars?
Sure chuck Ford in against Hodgson ( I hope Saracens pick Hodgson to start with De Kock).

If Hodgson is given license to play he's deadly.

Well apart from Allen (now) non of them are necessarily 1st team starters, but they are regulars in the 1st team line-ups.

Ford could go better than you think against charge-down Charlie.

Equo Troiano true about Mafi,Allen,Twelvetrees and Hamilton but because of the squad mentality they are seen as 1st teamers surely?

True about Ford. He could go better against Charlie but do you want to risk it?

Hodgson has the versatility and experience.

Surely you would prefer Flood vs Hodgson. Even Twelvetrees vs Hodgson for the added physicality.

beshocked wrote:Equo Troiano true about Mafi,Allen,Twelvetrees and Hamilton but because of the squad mentality they are seen as 1st teamers surely?

True about Ford. He could go better against Charlie but do you want to risk it?

Hodgson has the versatility and experience.

Surely you would prefer Flood vs Hodgson. Even Twelvetrees vs Hodgson for the added physicality.

Look at it like this, if Flood isn't fit, then why risk him?

Equo Troiano sorry I don't quite get it.

Do you want Ford to start if Flood is unfit or would you prefer Twelvetrees?

It's a foregone conclusion that if Flood is fit enough he'll start.

What's the general Tigers consensus? I can see Sam and killer wants Ford.

What about the rest of you?

Equo Troiano true about Mafi,Allen,Twelvetrees and Hamilton but because of the squad mentality they are seen as 1st teamers surely?

Sorry I wasn't very clear, only two would have normally started, though I'd forgotten about Allen as I thought he was injured be then. He certainly didn't last long even if he was on the park. To be honest Hamilton was looking to be included in the A Team for most of the season, until the LV Cup he was having a shocker of a season, ever since the final against Sarries last year he has lacked confidence.

Surely you would prefer Flood vs Hodgson

Well naturally we want the form 10 in the AP starting as opposed to either a 12 playing out of position or a 12 and a half stone just turn 19 prospect.

Ideally we want:

1.Ayerza
2.Chuter
3.Cole
4.Skivington (I wish Deacon wasn't injured)
5.Parling
6.Mafi (Croft out until next season)
7.Salvi
8.Waldrom (still too soon for Crane)
9.Youngs
10.Flood (if not fit then Ford)
11.Tuilagi
12.Allen
13.Manu
14.Agulla
15.Murphy (c)

Bench: Mulipola, T Youngs, Castro, Kitchener, Newby, Harrison, Twelvetrees, Hamilton/Smith (I favour Smith but Cockers will go Hamilton).

Right now I want Flood.

If he is injuerd I would like Ford against Sarries, but 36 if we were playing Quins.

There was a major issue with the scrum at the start of the season (not surprising with the various absentees with WC and injuries) and defensive alignment.

Falcons tried to take advantage of Ford sending Swinson down his channel. ford knocked him back once and made a solid tackle the second time and they stopped that tactic.

Saints ran Wilson and Downey at ford in LV final - he made his tackles with aplomb.

My initial suspicion would be that 36 and Ford would become interchangeable 10/12s depending on the match situation with Murphy calling the shots when direction from the touchline is impossible.

Sam that's a pretty fearsome team. I think your frontbench options are also very good.

Portnoy you would leave out Allen?

How do you think Tigers will play?

Yeah the frontrow to come off the bench will add a lot of ball carrying energy to the team. It could be very useful if we need to push on in the later stages of the game. Tom Youngs made a terriffic break against Bath to put Tigers in position for the last try and you saw what Mulipola could do at Vicarage Road, Castro needs no introduction. Kitchener adds a deceptive amount of pace to proceedings (if fit).

I was thinking more of their scrummaging than ball carrying abilities.

In terms of ball carrying the Sarries boys of Smit,Vunipola,Stevens would match up well. It's the squeeze in the scrum which would worry me.

Offensively and with the confidence that the bench won't weaken them.

Besides if Flood is declared as 50:50 for realistic likelihood to play on Saturday, then that's Tigers' code for 75% likely that he'll be fit.

They may even go to the expense of naming a 75%-fit player on the bench.

beshocked wrote:Equo Troiano sorry I don't quite get it.

Do you want Ford to start if Flood is unfit or would you prefer Twelvetrees?

It's a foregone conclusion that if Flood is fit enough he'll start.

What's the general Tigers consensus? I can see Sam and killer wants Ford.

What about the rest of you?

I think the others have summed it up quite well.

If Flood is fit, he plays.

If not, then start with Ford and bring 36 in off the bench (who can also cover centre if required) as an impact as necessary.

beshocked wrote:I was thinking more of their scrummaging than ball carrying abilities.

In terms of ball carrying the Sarries boys of Smit,Vunipola,Stevens would match up well. It's the squeeze in the scrum which would worry me.

If he takes his roller skates off.

A potential Saracens side would look something like

1.Gill
2.Brits
3.Nieto
4.Borthwick
5.Botha
6.Wray
7.Fraser
8.Joubert
9.De Kock
10.Hodgson
11.Short
12.Barritt
13.Wyles
14.Strettle
15.Goode

16.Stevens
17.Vunipola
18.Smit
19.Vyvan
20.Kruis
21.Wigglesworth
22.Farrell
23.Maddock

2 locks on the bench because the backrow options are now depleted with 4 players out.

I think the thing with Ford is that he can do to Saracens what Saracens do to most teams as his tactical kicking is exceptional. He can play on the front foot as well but in a tight game his kicking is ahead of anyone else at the club. Obviously we want Flood playing and if he is fit he has to play but if not then I would like to see Ford.

As for interchangeable, I don't see Ford as a 12 prospect which is why he probably won't make the bench ahead of 36 if Flood is fit.

The bench is really where we are ahead of the other teams, especially in the front row. Ayerza and Cole for an hour and then Mulipola and Castro to come on is hard to compete with in the scrum and Mulipola is a beast carrying. The Saracens front row are going to have to front up immediately otherwise it could be a very long day ahead for them. I don't remember who the props were at Vicarage road for Saracens but I remember they struggled big time, especially in the second half. Beshocked, were there any props missing that day that are available now? I am pretty sure we didn't have Cole playing that day.

Kitchener has improved no end this season as well and Youngs could be our young version of Brits (not comparing him to Brits in terms of quality, just in style of play).

In terms of the way we play I don't see any reason why we should change things up from what we have been doing recently to start with, especially without Burger in there. We will always try and get forward dominance to start with and then use that as a platform. If we can do that then I believe we will win.

Whatever the result, I'd love to see both Leicester Sarries regular season matches played outside the IWs.

That would be a once in a blue moon affair.

Beshocked are you joining in with the officially organised Sarries 'gathering' at Mandela Park and then 'marching' (the massive 100m) to Welford Rd ahead of kick off? Seems a tad gimicky to me but hey ho, I just hope they are careful as it's not the safest park in the world with 3/4s of the park surrounded by busy main roads (the other quarter backing onto the prison).

Visiting the ticket website this morning it looks like SAracens have returned an awful lot of their allocation so it may be a fairly tragic gathering.

There was a slighly mean joke on the offy earlier:

"Q: Why did the Sarries fan cross the road?

A: To meet the other one."

Equo Troiano how many tickets was the allocation?

I don't know Sam maybe. You might call the Gathering gimmicky but it made a very big impact before the play off game vs Saints at FG. Yes before you ask there were quite a lot of Saracens fans involved that day.

4000 was the allocation, about a 1000 have been returned.

Some march that will be, from the park to the gates, all 100m of it.

They should march down the hill from the station. All in Fez's with drums etc.

3,000 away fans isn't too bad in relation to how poor our home attendances have been. Of course the full allocation would be ideal but that was never that realistic.

They should march down the hill from the station. All in Fez's with drums etc

Now that would make a scene and they could do that relatively easily by meeting across the road from the station. From there it's down the fill and just across New Walk, down the road onto the park. All nicely pedestrian.

3,000 away fans isn't too bad in relation to how poor our home attendances have been. Of course the full allocation would be ideal but that was never that realistic.

Might get drowned out by the 21,000 home fans though. 3,000 isn't to bad and let's hope they have a great day out bar the 80 mins whilst the game is on.

You would hope so Sam. I unfortunately can't be there (one of the draw backs of living in France now) but I am sure it will be a good day out for all concerned, hopefully the weather stays decent as well and its a good game of rugby (with a Tigers win)

I doubt it will be a sell-out. In fact have we ever sold out a semi at the enlarged WR or over at King Power Walkers thingy?

I know many season ticket holders resent having to buy a ticket.

LT

Possibly they do but I would have thought this might be slightly different as it will be Alesana's last game at WR, hopefully he gets a good turnout to say goodbye to him, he deserves it (unless they did something for him after the Bath game?)

20k last year v Saints (week after selling out v LI)
21.6k in 2010 v Bath
19k at Walkers v Bath in 2009 (and boy do I remember the whining - though to be fair that was an expensive month - Blues at MS on the 3rd, Bath on 9th, LI at Twickenham on 16th and Leinster in Embra on 23rd )

I doubt it will be a sell-out. In fact have we ever sold out a semi at the enlarged WR or over at King Power Walkers thingy?

Don't Tigers hold the record for the biggest attendance at the formerly known as the Walkers stadium? Not sure if it was for a play off game though.

The Tigers website were advertising 10k sold within 24 hours or something equally rediculous though that could be because the semi final isn't included on the season ticket.

http://www.leicestertigers.com/news/13888.php

A quick look on the Tigers ticket thingy and pretty much all the good seats are gone and there's barely any standing tickets to be had. Might not be a complete sell out but it's going to be pretty full come Saturday.

approx 3,000 tickets available - not sure if that includes those returned from Sarries.

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Don't Tigers hold the record for the biggest attendance at the formerly known as the Walkers stadium? Not sure if it was for a play off game though.

HC Semi v Bath in 2006 was 32,500 (you remember the one, bath had two props binned for collapsing scrums, so it went to uncontested) and the official record. Capacity for a footy match is lower than that due to segregation.

Sarries team announced

http://www.saracens.com/news/ (op amended)

Sarries lineup:

15 Alex Goode
14 David Strettle
13 Owen Farrell
12 Brad Barritt
11 Chris Wyles
10 Charlie Hodgson
9 Neil de Kock
1 Rhys Gill
2 Schalk Brits
3 Matt Stevens
4 Steve Borthwick ©
5 Mouritz Botha
6 Jackson Wray
7 Will Fraser
8 Ernst Joubert

16 Jamie George
17 John Smit
18 Carlos Nieto
19 Hugh Vyvyan
20 George Kruis
21 Richard Wigglesworth
22 Adam Powell
23 James Short

15 Geordan Murphy (c)
14 Horacio Agulla
13 Manusamoa Tuilagi
12 Anthony Allen
11 Alesana Tuilagi
10 Toby Flood
9 Ben Youngs
1 Marcos Ayerza
2 George Chuter
3 Dan Cole
4 George Skivington
5 Geoff Parling
6 Steve Mafi
7 Julian Salvi
8 Thomas Waldrom

Replacements
16 Tom Youngs
17 Logovi'i Mulipola
18 Martin Castrogiovanni
19 Graham Kitchener
20 Craig Newby
21 Sam Harrison
22 Billy Twelvetrees
23 Scott Hamilton

So all Tigers injury doubts selected.

Nerves starting to ramp up.

LondonTiger wrote:15 Geordan Murphy (c)
14 Horacio Agulla
13 Manusamoa Tuilagi
12 Anthony Allen
11 Alesana Tuilagi
10 Toby Flood
9 Ben Youngs
1 Marcos Ayerza
2 George Chuter
3 Dan Cole
4 George Skivington
5 Geoff Parling
6 Steve Mafi
7 Julian Salvi
8 Thomas Waldrom

Replacements
16 Tom Youngs
17 Logovi'i Mulipola
18 Martin Castrogiovanni
19 Graham Kitchener
20 Craig Newby
21 Sam Harrison
22 Billy Twelvetrees
23 Scott Hamilton

Thanks LT

I'll paste that to the OP

As expected for Tigers just have to hope they all make it to the game and play. Sarries look to be going rather negative in the backs adding the solidarity of Farrell at 13 and Wyles on the wing rather than the more attacking Wyles at 13 and Short on the wing demonstrated in the Exeter win.

Massive game for Stevens if he wants to be playing in the England test side as this season PDJ and Cole have both shown better form.

I just love the fact the bench actually strengthens the team.