Playoff time - Tigers vs Sarries - Saturday 12th May 17:30 KO (Build-Up)

First topic message reminder :

Sarries team announced:

Saracens line-up vs Leicester Tigers

15 Alex Goode
14 David Strettle
13 Owen Farrell
12 Brad Barritt
11 Chris Wyles
10 Charlie Hodgson
9 Neil de Kock
1 Rhys Gill
2 Schalk Brits
3 Matt Stevens
4 Steve Borthwick ©
5 Mouritz Botha
6 Jackson Wray
7 Will Fraser
8 Ernst Joubert

16 Jamie George
17 John Smit
18 Carlos Nieto
19 Hugh Vyvyan
20 George Kruis
21 Richard Wigglesworth
22 Adam Powell
23 James Short

Tigers team

15 Geordan Murphy (c)
14 Horacio Agulla
13 Manusamoa Tuilagi
12 Anthony Allen
11 Alesana Tuilagi
10 Toby Flood
9 Ben Youngs
1 Marcos Ayerza
2 George Chuter
3 Dan Cole
4 George Skivington
5 Geoff Parling
6 Steve Mafi
7 Julian Salvi
8 Thomas Waldrom

Replacements
16 Tom Youngs
17 Logovi'i Mulipola
18 Martin Castrogiovanni
19 Graham Kitchener
20 Craig Newby
21 Sam Harrison
22 Billy Twelvetrees
23 Scott Hamilton



Not really my bag - the playoffs - so first I'll just congratulate the Quins on being Regular season champions.

However tickets seem to be selling pretty well but I don't know that it will be a full house.

But I want a Leicester victory not so much as a on-eyed Tiger, but just to express my opinion regarding the Sarries season-long negative approach.

If it's true that he's aiming to go to 13st+ this coming pre-season then I'm sure the range will come along with time.

It's already improved vastly on what it was when I used to go and watch the A games a couple of seasons back. In those days he really was a 50/50 sort of kicker where as now he's in the 65% area so there's improvement but he still needs to get into that 75%+ sort of area in order to be considered a front line 10. Hopefully additional power in the legs from this pre season of conditioning will allow him to relax on the strike and gain better accuracy because at the minute he seems to have to put a lot of power into the ball and that is compromising his accuracy. Having said that two of the three he missed were from the touchline and the other was from half way and came back off the bar. Not horrendous but neither was it anything to boast about.

Heard Flood's injury yesterday described as the world's worst kept secret. Is it generally thought likely that he'll be back for the final?

Twisted ankle so I expect it ballooned during the week and was more than a tad uncomfortable. Time is on his side and as long as it's just bruising he should be fine, if he's tweaked ligaments etc he could be a doubt. There were rumours last week that Ford was running a lot of moves in training from 10 so I don't think many fans were to surprised.

It was interesting to see 36 blanked off the bench.

Will there be an especial vendetta forthcoming next time we meet him?

Didn't seem so, he was celebrating with the other subs for the first try and looked happy at the final whistle giving Ford a congratulatory hug. Don't think he is a prissy kind of player so I wouldn't expect a bitter vendetta next season. I would expect him to be a success at Glaws though.

Yeh, I agree woeful is harsh but that is definitely something he needs to work on. I think the most important thing though was he kicked the penalties which were at crucial times. The one at the end of the first half into the wind to put us ahead was big and then the one to put us back up by 9 at the end of the match was crucial as well. I think these 2 kicks are just examples of the composure he showed and why everyone is excited about his future.

Another thing that I hadn't fully realised with him is that his acceleration is very good and it seems to come out of nowhere.

Overall, I don't think we could have asked much more of a 19 year old in a premiership semi final.

On the Saracens side, I was actually pleasantly surprised by their approach to the game, especially in the first half, we just had the ability to take our chances and Saracens didn't.

Equo Troiano as graceful as ever I see. Your fellow Tigers fans should be embarrassed by you. Trash talking as usual - how appropriate.

Please say something sensible for once.

You think Tigers winning again and again and again.... is good for the sport as a whole? It's good to have a side like Tigers but they need competition.

London Tiger I couldn't quite see the shirt of the player he shoulder charged but it's normal for M.Tuilagi to "tackle" like that. It was certainly in the 1st half - around the 20th minute mark I believe.

Hodgson - overrated? Who rates him? All I hear is how Flood and Ford are two of the best fly halves in the world.

For 20 minutes Sarries were the better team and were creating space all over the place. They were clearing the ball quickly, Hodgson was dictating affairs well and they were a touch unlucky.

Once Alessana scored Sarries started slowing things down, which was crazy.

killer938 wrote:Yeh, I agree woeful is harsh but that is definitely something he needs to work on. I think the most important thing though was he kicked the penalties which were at crucial times. The one at the end of the first half into the wind to put us ahead was big and then the one to put us back up by 9 at the end of the match was crucial as well. I think these 2 kicks are just examples of the composure he showed and why everyone is excited about his future.

Another thing that I hadn't fully realised with him is that his acceleration is very good and it seems to come out of nowhere.

Overall, I don't think we could have asked much more of a 19 year old in a premiership semi final.

On the Saracens side, I was actually pleasantly surprised by their approach to the game, especially in the first half, we just had the ability to take our chances and Saracens didn't.

I apologise maybe because it's I am used to a kicker who makes at least 80% of his kicks. Was Ford 5/9? Ok it isn't woeful but Farrell was 4/5.

Let's be honest Ford was fortunate to not have either Brown or Burger hunting him down.

You guys only look at my criticisms - not the positives.

beshocked wrote:Equo Troiano as graceful as ever I see. Your fellow Tigers fans should be embarrassed by you. Trash talking as usual - how appropriate.

Please say something sensible for once.

You think Tigers winning again and again and again.... is good for the sport as a whole? It's good to have a side like Tigers but they need competition.

London Tiger I couldn't quite see the shirt of the player he shoulder charged but it's normal for M.Tuilagi to "tackle" like that. It was certainly in the 1st half - around the 20th minute mark I believe.

Hodgson - overrated? Who rates him? All I hear is how Flood and Ford are two of the best fly halves in the world.

LOL at this.

You, you're the one who rates Hodgeson. Anyway, Tigers winning again and again and again isn't bad for the sport - at least they attempt to play rugby. And nobody has actually said either Flood or Ford are the best Fly-Halfs in the world. Tigers fans on here quite often question Flood's overall game and I don't remember anybody having much of a conversation about Ford until last Friday when it became apparent he might play. All that was said, as I recall was that Ford was an able stand-in for Flood and that he would go better than some people thought against Hodgeson (and so it proved to be).

So I say to you, quite legitimately, Please say something sensible for once...

5/8.

One poor, but from same place Farrel missed, touchline conversion attempt, and the 54m attempt that landed on the bar.

Oh i rate Hodgson too. I thought he played well on Saturday.

Ok London Tiger I thought he missed 4. I apologise Ford did better than I thought.

As already said Saracens just lacked the penetration in midfield. Farrell is not a 13.

The most important thing is that the English sides perform well in the HC next season.

LondonTiger wrote:Oh i rate Hodgson too. I thought he played well on Saturday.

Bizarrely, I think he's played much better since he joined Saracens. Probably because he doesn't have to think too much about strategy.

Beshocked

Firstly, I do actually remember the Tuilagi incident and was worried at the time a penalty was going to be given but I can't remember who it was on. He has definitely got better but in this instance he was very lucky to get away with it.

Onto Flood and Ford, no-one is saying they are the best fly halves in the world but obviously we are delighted with the way Ford played and the way Flood was playing. I see you backing Farrell when the discussion about the England fly half position is brought up and going on about how he won the premiership final last year in that position and I have no problem with that but you must allow us to compliment our players when they do the same thing (ok semi final in this case). I, for one, try not to get caught up in any hype about a player and no serious Tigers fan on here would suggest that Ford is the first choice at Tigers, let alone ready to play for England but we see a lot of potential in him and are excited to see him develop. He was 5/8 I believe, maybe I am wrong on that, and yes he is not as good as Farrell at goalkicking, but then again not many people in the premiership are. Obviously Burger and Brown would have made a difference but you can only play what is in front of you and I was very impressed with Wray in particular, I think you have got a very good young player there.

I thought Hodgson played well yesterday in the first half and got your backline moving well, you just missed that final cutting edge which you might have had with a proper 13, but I know you agree on this point. By the way, why is it that this only seems to happen against us?

Killer938 glad it wasn't just me who saw it. It was nothing more than a penalty but M.Tuilagi needs to get rid of this habit. Certainly when playing for England.

I am of course exaggerating about Ford and Flood. I just feel Hodgson gets bad press - quite literally. I think all 4 fly halves have their pros and cons.

Why what happens only against you? Lacking that cutting edge? We lack it against the best sides like you,Clermont and Quins which is why we lose. Against lesser sides we probably would have got a try or two in that first 20.

You made some very good points.

I thought Hodgson played well yesterday in the first half and got your backline moving well

The Sarries backline worked very well in the opening 20 minutes when Goode frequently came into the line and have a lot of impetus in the wider channels (he was outstanding for Sarries) and there were to very good breaks down the Crumbie side of the pitch with Strettle knocking on and the second attack being bundled into touch. I wonder if Sarries might have been better switching Goode and Farrell. There wasn't a lot of room for counter attacking from Ford's kicks and so Goode influence was limited whilst Farrell just couldn't get going in attack. Moving Farrell's big boot and physical tackling to fb and Goode's dancing feet and eye for a gap to 13 could have paid dividends.

Firstly, I do actually remember the Tuilagi incident and was worried at the time a penalty was going to be given but I can't remember who it was on. He has definitely got better but in this instance he was very lucky to get away with it

I missed that one, any details? What we talking, a shove with aid from the shoulder or a full blown take out Farrell on Trinder style?

Sam you had to mention Farrell didn't you?

Seriously what has he done to you?

Did you try to get an autograph but he gave you the cold shoulder?

I have just watched the recording between 15 an 25 minute mark.

On 17 minutes Alex Goode puts a little dink into the corner in front of the Terrace. There is a coming together between Sarries 7 and Alessana with the Sarries layer running into/Alessana dipping the shoulder all depending on who you support.

On 23 minutes Wray has a burst and comes into contact with Manu, sternum to sternum. Manu's arms do sort of go roung Wray, Pearson is right on the spot.

Right I better get back to doing some work.

I did think at the time that Manu had stretched credibility with that tackle. However, he did initially wrap his arms around the player, albeit very, very briefly. It was more of a charge than a tackle in my opinion. But Pearson was right there and its his opinion that counted. C'est La Gare.

Beshocked

Sorry, I wasn't clear, I didn't mean why don't you have the lack of cutting edge against us, I meant you seem to open it up against us more than most teams. All three times we played this season you seemed to play more expansively than in the other games I have seen you play and have looked dangerous doing it, I just wonder why you don't do it more.

Any rumours about signing a new 13 for you guys?

Yeh, it was a silly thing to do and hopefully Cockerill and Lancaster will have a word with him about it. It makes no sense because when he tackles properly he generally does it very well. Sam, I only saw it at live speed on the TV but it seemed just like a tackle with no arms after the ball had been passed, kind of like he realised the ball had gone and so didn't bother with the arms, when really he should have just gone ahead with the tackle. As Beshocked said, nothing more than a penalty but a penalty none the less.

Hodgson had the problem of always being compared to Wilko and so people who don't watch rugby beyond the internationals (and half the time I feel some of the press don't) just see him as the guy who wasn't as good as him. In fact, on the front foot, he has been as good as anyone in England over the years, stands flat and is a very good passer so I think he has actually been highly underrated by a lot of people. His defense is suspect and that is probably what has stopped him moving to the next level, something I hope Ford can do with the conditioning program over the summer.

It's nice that with the Sarries vs Leicester games there hasn't been much animosity.

No yellow cards yet again. Virtually no controversy. Also the ref hasn't been the main talking point which is always nice.

Beshocked

Cue the complaints about the referee

Lets face it, Danny Cipriani has introduced a whole new level of Outside Half with flaky defence.


Mind you when I started watching the game, they were not expected to tackle. Not sure I ever saw the likes of Bennett, Campbell, Cusworth, Ella, Porta, Rutherford or Ward ever make a tackle.

killer938 wrote:Beshocked

Sorry, I wasn't clear, I didn't mean why don't you have the lack of cutting edge against us, I meant you seem to open it up against us more than most teams. All three times we played this season you seemed to play more expansively than in the other games I have seen you play and have looked dangerous doing it, I just wonder why you don't do it more.

Any rumours about signing a new 13 for you guys?

Yeh, it was a silly thing to do and hopefully Cockerill and Lancaster will have a word with him about it. It makes no sense because when he tackles properly he generally does it very well. Sam, I only saw it at live speed on the TV but it seemed just like a tackle with no arms after the ball had been passed, kind of like he realised the ball had gone and so didn't bother with the arms, when really he should have just gone ahead with the tackle. As Beshocked said, nothing more than a penalty but a penalty none the less.

Hodgson had the problem of always being compared to Wilko and so people who don't watch rugby beyond the internationals (and half the time I feel some of the press don't) just see him as the guy who wasn't as good as him. In fact, on the front foot, he has been as good as anyone in England over the years, stands flat and is a very good passer so I think he has actually been highly underrated by a lot of people. His defense is suspect and that is probably what has stopped him moving to the next level, something I hope Ford can do with the conditioning program over the summer.

We play a more attacking game against you because you can match us pound for pound in the power game - in the scrum you come out on top. Also without Burger and Brown we miss two of our best tacklers. I don't know why we don't open up more either.

We simply haven't been clinical enough - taking opportunities.

No rumour about a new 13. I think Tomkins has been earmarked as the man to fill the spot - why we haven't blooded him I don't know.

To be fair Hodgson has been pretty poor when stepping up to international level yet I see him as very classy at club level. His tackling has definitely improved. I don't think Hodgson was helped in the 6 nations by an out of form Youngs and Barritt and Farrell as the 12 and 13.

The Barritt/Farrell combo is not effective.

Tuilagi is such a good 13 because he has a great mix of power and pace. He showed how quick he is in his try vs France.

I genuinely feel that the centre partnership is key to any attack both internationally and domestically. I think England have struggled because of that lack of fluency in the centres. It's the same with Saracens.

Sam you had to mention Farrell didn't you?

As we were discussing Sarries attack in the first 20 mins and their inability to find a 13 then yeah. I wasn't actually negative I merely recommended he swap places with Goode so that Sarries could maintain the high kicking percentage and keep a tactical kicker at 15 but perhaps add more spark to the midfield through your best attacking talent. Sheesh your touchy.

To be fair Hodgson has been pretty poor when stepping up to international level yet I see him as very classy at club level.

A combination of things has seen him fail to perform at international level. A lack of front foot ball with Tindall and Noon in the centres under Robinson at the same time as his kicking game was being stripped back which led to some iffy kicking displays. Then his second chance on that NZ tour where he was pretty awful though with Barkley alongside him he was hardly offered much defensive cover. During the 6N the team game offered very little in terms of attacking intent and so didn't really suit him.

Sam I was actually referring to you talking about Farrell's incident with Trinder. It wasn't needed.

Goode is our best 15 and should stay there.

I agree that Hodgson's failings aren't completely down to him at international level but his place kicking at international level was inexcusable. His place kicking is much better at club level - maybe it's the pressure.

Sam I was actually referring to you talking about Farrell's incident with Trinder. It wasn't needed

Well I could have used other examples for reference but you wouldn't have necessarily have known them so they would have been redundent.

Sam I didn't see Farrell's incident with Trinder so I can't judge. Anyway we've discussed the M.Tuilagi incident. It wasn't hugely serious. Just something I noticed.

As already said Tigers deserved to win. That's pretty clear. I think you'll beat Quins.

JP Morgan Sevens in the next thing to look forward to. Ironically Saracens are probably the most exciting AP Sevens team to watch IMO. One of the strongest too.

Quote Equo: "C'est La Gare.".....It's the Station?

Yes, my French was never better than O Level really - The two words are very similar in spoken French, I do remember once being looked at rather curiously by a Gendarme when I'd asked him the 'way to the war'...

Anyway, C'est la guerre...

JP Morgan Sevens in the next thing to look forward to. Ironically Saracens are probably the most exciting AP Sevens team to watch IMO. One of the strongest too

We'll no doubt send the academy again whilst the first team are in France for pre season. If anything we'll be weaker than in last year as Lewington will no doubt be with the first team. Last year we had signed an Englands 7s player and former England unis no 8 and decided not to bother sending him keeping him with the first team instead, which shows how highly we rate that competition.

Sam I didn't see Farrell's incident with Trinder so I can't judge. Anyway we've discussed the M.Tuilagi incident. It wasn't hugely serious. Just something I noticed

I missed it so I just wondered what it was comparible to as with the Tuilagi clan you never know. Can be a bit of nothing made to look worse because of the size of the guy or at the other extreme it can be a massive bone shuddering rush of blood to the head moment with an inevitible ban.

Sam because of course all the other sides send out their 1st team players. We do generally send out a decent squad but when you have a strong academy why not try to win some silverware?

I can only give my verdict on what I saw live from my seat. On TV one would have had a better view. In my opinion it looked like a shoulder charge, not bad enough for a yellow but enough for a penalty. Anyway it's not important. It was hardly a match changing incident. Just something I observed.

I did not see it live.

As I described it back above, from watching the recording, it did not warrant a penalty.

LondonTiger I think it's been done to death now.

In your opinion it did not warrant a penalty. That's fine.

Sam because of course all the other sides send out their 1st team players

Normally there's a spattering, some teams send more than others but normally there's a young first teamer or two. For instance Sarries sent Short along last year. I think Tigers don't follow the same pattern because Cockers really believes in the big pre season in France. Getting the players away from everything except rugby and their team mates for a few weeks is key for him. It allows the new players and the academy graduates to immerse themselves in the ethos of the first team and allows partnerships to develop. Hence we'll send a long a load of 18 to 20 year olds and see what happens, there's some good talent but they'll still lose, the experience will be good for them though.

It was hardly a match changing incident

As long as there will be no citing. He was a big loss for us in last years final.

I reckon there is more chance of Alessana being cited.

Why do you say that?

Because:

1) I see nothing in what I assume to be the Manu challeneg under query to warrant further action
2) Alessana on 17 minutes dips his shoulder and drives into Will Fraser who is chasing an alex Goode kick. Does not look citeworthy but
3) alessana has previous.

Pretty sure everything is OK though.

maverickmak wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Ford played very well but his kicking from the tee was fairly rubbish. One of the commentators mentioned he has the lowest percentage in the league. Aside from that at about 50 minutes we got a stat that Ford had made 0 tackles and missed 1. Now i'm not sure how much you can trust that stat but that's not the sign of an international fly half. Austin Healy was quite critical of him at times.

Congrats Tigers, you were easily the better team on the day. I am very worried about the final now!

I'm certain Ford made his fair share of tackles. I remember a few great ones, like tackling Short(?) into touch near the end of the game. Sarries must have made an effort to target him, and force him to make tackles. He's not a big lad, but he has good technique, and doesn't shy away from the tackles. The kicks he missed weren't easy too. Bit harsh to say his tee kicking was fairly rubbish. He nailed a few good'uns. He does look to have the whole package. As close to Carter as England have every produced. Still got work to do, but that lad really is special.

Looking forward to the final. Glad it's the correct teams contesting it. Best team over the whole season vs best team since the World Cup. 1st vs 2nd.

May the best team win.

The stats show Ford made 7 tackles and missed 1.

http://www.espnscrum.com/premiership-2011-12/rugby/match/146934.html

niwatts wrote:

maverickmak wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Ford played very well but his kicking from the tee was fairly rubbish. One of the commentators mentioned he has the lowest percentage in the league. Aside from that at about 50 minutes we got a stat that Ford had made 0 tackles and missed 1. Now i'm not sure how much you can trust that stat but that's not the sign of an international fly half. Austin Healy was quite critical of him at times.

Congrats Tigers, you were easily the better team on the day. I am very worried about the final now!

I'm certain Ford made his fair share of tackles. I remember a few great ones, like tackling Short(?) into touch near the end of the game. Sarries must have made an effort to target him, and force him to make tackles. He's not a big lad, but he has good technique, and doesn't shy away from the tackles. The kicks he missed weren't easy too. Bit harsh to say his tee kicking was fairly rubbish. He nailed a few good'uns. He does look to have the whole package. As close to Carter as England have every produced. Still got work to do, but that lad really is special.

Looking forward to the final. Glad it's the correct teams contesting it. Best team over the whole season vs best team since the World Cup. 1st vs 2nd.

May the best team win.

The stats show Ford made 7 tackles and missed 1.

http://www.espnscrum.com/premiership-2011-12/rugby/match/146934.html

good to see Steven's leading the penalty count for both sides.

Stevens was pretty woeful. After Nieto went off and Stevens came plodding back on and gave the penalty straight away at the scrum, I would have been fuming in I was a team mate.

Newby was brilliant I thought. It was interesting to hear Cockerill's interview after when he said about him not training much during the week, but just getting out there on a Saturday and doing what's needed.

Very decent game from Ford- his kicking from hand was beautiful at times.

Thought Wray and Fraser looked very good too.

bluestonevedder agree with that.

Nooo why's Steven's back on the pitch!!!!

Penalty to Leicester

I hope Cobus Visagie is employed to teach our boys how to scrummage again. If not I wouldn't mind him putting on a Sarries shirt again!

I wonder if with the advantage of hindsight whether Sarries would have bid for PDJ over Smit last summer. Certainly additional propping resources would have been more crucial this season as opposed to a great leader who is a good hooker and can cover prop.

Newby was brilliant I thought. It was interesting to hear Cockerill's interview after when he said about him not training much during the week, but just getting out there on a Saturday and doing what's needed

He did suffer a pretty horriffic knee injury so I would imagine they are taking their time with it and just giving him time to get it back to full strength. Don't want to throw him into a full blooded contact session and something go wrong. I guess he does all the training but the contact session where he does specific conditioning on his knee with the physios.

Stevens has been on roller skates at the scrum ever since he came back from his ban. How he's made it into the EPS baffles me. That goes for Botha too, especially when you consider that the likes of Attwood and Garvey have the Summer off.

Equo Troiano what have Attwood and Garvey done recently to warrant call ups?

Sam I heard we were looking at Cole when he was unsure whether to stay at Leicester. Should have really snapped him up if there was the opportunity.

I feel a few players have slipped through the net now: Tongauiha,Cole,Mullan and Gray.

Sam I heard we were looking at Cole when he was unsure whether to stay at Leicester. Should have really snapped him up if there was the opportunity

You were always going to be up against it trying to sign Cole. He was born across the road from the ground and lives within walking distance of the the training facilities at Oval Park. He really is a born and raised local lad, Tigers are his team. He would have been perfect for Sarries though.

That goes for Botha too, especially when you consider that the likes of Attwood and Garvey have the Summer off.

Botha has been reliable and did well enough in the 6N once paired with Parling. The real question is why is Palmer being taken along when Attwood and Garvery have the summer off!

beshocked wrote:Equo Troiano what have Attwood and Garvey done recently to warrant call ups?

Sam I heard we were looking at Cole when he was unsure whether to stay at Leicester. Should have really snapped him up if there was the opportunity.

I feel a few players have slipped through the net now: Tongauiha,Cole,Mullan and Gray.

Sticking with the likes of Botha when Lancaster's own mandate has been to pick young players in form (and Attwood & Garvey have both been in form, believe me) is hypocrytical. I could equally ask what has Botha done to retain his place? And of course, an 'Englishman' would be preferable. The Summer tests are a perfect opportunity to give uncapped lads a run out and i'm not the only one suggesting that Attwood & Garvey should be tried and that Botha isn't particularly brilliant.

Stop getting so precious about your SAracen boys, many people think there are better options out there.

Am i the only one who doesn't quite see why Garvey is such a fan favourite?

Well, i'm not suprised considering how pessimistic you appear to be.

Agree with Sam. Funny that you focus all your bile on Botha but don't mention Palmer.

Botha performed adequately in the 6 nations. He didn't have a howler like the scrum halves did.

Just because I happen to disagree with you it has to be because they are Saracens? Sigh. Stop being so sanctimonious.

I would have picked Garvey for the 6 nations over Botha but as Botha had an alright 6 nations and Garvey has not put his hand up recently - Botha gets the nod.

Attwood hasn't really stood out in a rubbish Bath side so shouldn't feature.

Both Garvey and Attwood need to focus on turning their clubs into contenders.

I did just love the benevolent and approving look on Venter's face at the end of the game. Such an endearing man.

Equo Troiano wrote:Well, i'm not suprised considering how pessimistic you appear to be.

Believe it or not, most people consider me to be an optimist in real life Though I must admit that my belief in tigers abilities is some way beneath yours. I think we are the best team in England - but performances over the last 3 seasons show we are a long way below what is needed in Europe. i am optimistic for next season's HC, but let's see.

As to Garvey - of course like most on here I see my own players more and thus tend to rate them higher - but I would much rather have Slater in my team than Garvey. Lawes was overhyped after one televised match against Munster (I do think he is a fantastic prospect) and the same seemed to happen to Garvey after some good runs with the ball in a televised match.

And finally Botha - as the man in possession of the white shirt, he has done nothing to suggest he deserves to lose the spot. As incumbents Botha, Palmer and Parling were virtually nailed on. As young guns Lancaster has gone with Kitchener and Launchbury. while this is a punt, if he had taken Attwood and Garvey, or Skivington and Slater there would have been moaning.

beshocked wrote:Agree with Sam. Funny that you focus all your bile on Botha but don't mention Palmer.

Botha performed adequately in the 6 nations. He didn't have a howler like the scrum halves did.

Just because I happen to disagree with you it has to be because they are Saracens? Sigh. Stop being so sanctimonious.

I would have picked Garvey for the 6 nations over Botha but as Botha had an alright 6 nations and Garvey has not put his hand up recently - Botha gets the nod.

Attwood hasn't really stood out in a rubbish Bath side so shouldn't feature.

Both Garvey and Attwood need to focus on turning their clubs into contenders.

Do you even know what sanctimonious means?

We're both entitled to our opinions, but its as sure as eggs are eggs that if anyone offers criticism of a SAracens player at any level, you flare up like teenage acne, so don't you dare accuse anyone of being 'sanctimonious', because you wrote the rule book.