Ospreys don't need NWQ players.

Watching the Os this season, reading the same comments by the fans about the players they don't want and there is little recognition for the NWQs.

Could we do without them next year?

Do you want to progress in the Heineken Cup?

They might new a few as cover. That was 15 welsh qualified players yesterday though wasn't it? (when Webb came on).

Apart from dirksen that becomes welsh qualified in Jan 2014. We've shed so many players that a few signings are on the cards methinks. If biggar, beck or even bishop and fussell get involved in the welsh set up consistently then we'll be very light even with some of the youngsters coming through.

Morgannwg wrote:They might new a few as cover. That was 15 welsh qualified players yesterday though wasn't it? (when Webb came on).

Dirks is the only exception. I think that he doesn't Qualify for Wales for a few years. GReat player though, who may chose to play for the US or SA, really maturing well.

I dont think we need to have NWQs to do well in Europe either. Especially as we have held on to top players like Ryan Jones, Hibbard, Adam Jones, AWJ, Ian Evans and Tuperic.

The subs last night show the future direction of the Ospreys, Ryan Bevington for James (56), Bevs will be a first choice Loosehead next season, with Duncs as more than adequate back up.

Scott Baldwin for Hibbard (61), Baldwin looks perfect for filling the place of Huw Bennett next season.

Aaron Jarvis for Adam Jones (65) and there is also the superb young Joe Rees to back up for the big fella Jones.

James King for Alun Wyn Jones (69), James King is great back up for AWJ and the resurgent Ian Evans. REally developing very quickly, fast, athletic and great in the lineout.

Matthew Morgan for Biggar (72), Morgan is still very young but offers a great option/alternative and currently understudy to Biggar. Great to see Biggar improve so much in recent weeks. Tandy and Rees have had a great input.

Rhys Webb for Fotuali'i (56), we just don't need Fotuali'i. He hasn't impressed, Munster and O's fans in the crowd agreed that he was doing more to keep the Ospreys score down than the Munster defence last night. Rhys Webb has been superb since returning from his prolonged early career injuries, post RWC Seven win and youth level successes. Tom Habberfield is looking superb in the sevens this season, has played well for the O's in the LV= opportunities he has been given.

Looking at the Ospreys academy players there are plenty of talented lads heading off to the JWC this summer. Fullback Ross Jones, talented number 8 Dan Baker and Lock Rhodri Hughes, Nigel Davies's son flyhalf Sam Davies and flying winger Luke Morgan, one of the few Welsh U20s to really impress in the Six Nations games.

sugarNspikes wrote:Do you want to progress in the Heineken Cup?

Would like to win the HEC, not just progress.

maestegmafia wrote:

sugarNspikes wrote:Do you want to progress in the Heineken Cup?

Would like to win the HEC, not just progress.

You need NWQ players then, the Welsh players are good enough to win the 6N but are not good enough to step up and win the HC.

Stone Motif wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

sugarNspikes wrote:Do you want to progress in the Heineken Cup?

Would like to win the HEC, not just progress.

You need NWQ players then, the Welsh players are good enough to win the 6N but are not good enough to step up and win the HC.

I dont believe that at all.

Welsh rugby has re-structured, it is trying to become self sufficient and sustainable. Investing in academy rugby not the NWQ superstars of the past like Collins, Holah et al.

The talent progressing from the Welsh regional academies is incredibly impressive. Currently enough to boost the Welsh teams prospects as you said above, but the future is to boost Welsh Rugby as a whole, National, Regional and Club level below.

Not a great year, again for the regions in Europe. Good year for Wales and for Welsh clubs, Cross Keys in the final of the B&I cup was a very very impressive performance for a semi pro club in a championship against mainly all pro clubs.

It is all about the future in Wales at all levels. The cogs are turning at all levels and things are obviously coming together well.

Two separate points there though. I agree we are moving forward in terms of development and the regional structures and clubs beneath them are growing more robust. However, what they are producing may be good enough to win 6N, but the level of the 6N falls some way short of winning the Heineken Cup.

Put another way, who are the better team, Leinster or Ireland?

Continuing with the Leinster theme I would argue their development structures are as good as anybody's, certainly as good as anything in Wales, but they wouldn't win HC's without the likes of Nacewa.

People in Wales are that used to seeing the international team as the pinnacle that we make the wrongful conclusion that a team good enough to win a 6N grand slam should be able to win a HC.

Stone Motif wrote:Two separate points there though. I agree we are moving forward in terms of development and the regional structures and clubs beneath them are growing more robust. However, what they are producing may be good enough to win 6N, but the level of the 6N falls some way short of winning the Heineken Cup.

Put another way, who are the better team, Leinster or Ireland?

Continuing with the Leinster theme I would argue their development structures are as good as anybody's, certainly as good as anything in Wales, but they wouldn't win HC's without the likes of Nacewa.

People in Wales are that used to seeing the international team as the pinnacle that we make the wrongful conclusion that a team good enough to win a 6N grand slam should be able to win a HC.

I would say that Leinster could put out an all Irish qualified team that would be as good as one containing guys like Nacewa, Thorn and Stauss, who are their regular non IQ players.

Look at the Leinster side for today:

I Nacewa, F McFadden, E O'Malley, G D'Arcy, D Kearney, J Sexton, E Reddan, C Healy, R Strauss, M Ross, B Thorn, D Toner, S O'Brien, S Jennings, J Heaslip (cpt).

If Kearney were fit he would likely start at 15, Fitzgerald and BOD have injuries too but are quality players, Thorn is in for Cullen, Stauss for Cronin, but should they pick all IQ players they would not be weakened.

It is, I agree a tough challenge to win the HEC. But I do believe that all the Celtic teams could do it without any imports next year, Leinster could and might, do it this year.

Fair do's they can pick a strong all-Irish side, but still arguably better with NIQ players and then there is the depth and competition for places they bring. What I'm saying is you cannot judge the competitiveness of the O's in the HC on their strength in the league, or even of their international players. You've always had that and never got past the quarters.

And in answer to the obvious reply to that, no you can't just blame the coaches, for one thing Tandy may just as easily find himself out of his depth when his team has to compete with the big boys in Europe, it's early days yet, and for the other many of the O's have played numerous finals and pressure games and are vastly experienced players.

Time will tell.

Though I am unconvinced that the NWQs available to the regions with respect to the budgets that are available warrant investment over the impact that same investment would make in WQ youth players from within the Academy.

This year we have seen huge budget teams in the HEC from france and England employing 50% non nationally qualified players fall at the same stage that Ospreys have done repeatedly.

There is little to suggest that such investment is worthwhile.

The progress made towards the end of the season is just that and no more, its just positive progress, nothing has been won yet. The O's have been in the top three of the Rabo all season. So Tandy's influence can not be proved statistically yet.

The only way to judge Tandy's tenure's impact is the visual one. You definitely see that at the games. The Ospreys look positive, purposeful, confident and promising where once they looked ponderous.

Maest strauss is IQ

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Maest strauss is IQ

Didnt think he was IQ until next season?

He is though, a player that has been bought by Leinster from SA that qualifies through residency as opposed to an Irish player who has progressed through the youth set up like other Irish players within the team.

If I was running Welsh, Irish or Scorrish rugby I would aim to have no foreign players in any of my regional /club teams.

The strength of a national team lies in the depth of it's local competition and that is where players develop.

biltongbek wrote:If I was running Welsh, Irish or Scorrish rugby I would aim to have no foreign players in any of my regional /club teams.

The strength of a national team lies in the depth of it's local competition and that is where players develop.

I think that is the common consensus in All the Celtic nations, where we have a much smaller population than England and France. Though I think the FFR and RFU are both coming to similar conclusions.

Certainy in France where the FFR have had serious issues attaining French players for international calls. The clubs have too much money and power. I am sure you have heard Leivremont and St. andre both comment on the unavailability of national squad players.

maestegmafia wrote:This year we have seen huge budget teams in the HEC from france and England employing 50% non nationally qualified players fall at the same stage that Ospreys have done repeatedly.

There is little to suggest that such investment is worthwhile.

Panic buying anything that can catch a ball and weighs over 15 stone is not building a team - as an O's fan you should know that

The Irish teams buy quality not quantity, and are the better for it.

It's always worth having some players in a squad with different life experience and different rugby backgrounds. They may not necessarily be first choice but a good mix is very useful.

Ospreys have been very impressive and it's great that it's their welsh lads that are leading the way but a few carefully chosen imports would be the icing on the cake.

I'm also not sure if any English clubs have over 50% NEQ players in their match day teams except maybe Sale and Falcons both of whome were in the Amlin.

Infact my team Quins are pretty similar to O's in that they can easily field an all English side.

NEQ, NWQ, NIQ, WQ, IQ, EQ

It all boils down to the same thing, foreigners in these clubs.

I don't know why it bugs me so much, but it almost seems like a goal to be achieved.

first goal get foreign players in
second goal, see if you can get them to qualify through parentage or grandparents
Third goal if goal two isn't achieveable let them qualify through residency
Once they are qualified see if they want to commit to playing for the newly qualified country.

Maybe here in the Southern hemisphere things work differently and we are just not used to it, but for me it is about attitude, where is the pride in saying our players are born, bred, developed at home?

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying it can't happen, players are born in one country and develop in another whilst still at school, but to actually have a system designed for this just seems to take a step back in my view.

No foreign players at all is an extreme gesture. Between one and four is perfectly understandable provided they're good players. People were quick to leap on Fotuali'i's back when he had a couple of stinkers but yesterday I thought he showed his class and made some intelligent passes and runs. Webb was stunning when he joined the fray, we should be thanking our lucky stars to have both to pick from on current form.

We're looking to get the best out of development, that doesn't signify radically and racially cutting all foreigners from the setup. On the evidence of yesterday the O's have found the right balance. And outsiders can introduce new initiative and ideas which can indeed help internal developing players to progress. It's not a question of one extreme or the other.

biltongbek wrote:NEQ, NWQ, NIQ, WQ, IQ, EQ

It all boils down to the same thing, foreigners in these clubs.

I don't know why it bugs me so much, but it almost seems like a goal to be achieved.

first goal get foreign players in
second goal, see if you can get them to qualify through parentage or grandparents
Third goal if goal two isn't achieveable let them qualify through residency
Once they are qualified see if they want to commit to playing for the newly qualified country.

Maybe here in the Southern hemisphere things work differently and we are just not used to it, but for me it is about attitude, where is the pride in saying our players are born, bred, developed at home?

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying it can't happen, players are born in one country and develop in another whilst still at school, but to actually have a system designed for this just seems to take a step back in my view.

Don't think that is an accurate representation of how the Irish system works. If I understand it correctly, they have to work to quotas, and to rules applying to those quotas. Thus Isaac Boss and Tom Court were identified as qualifying players through parentage. There is one special project player per province - a NIQ who could become IQ through residency e.g. Stephen (I want my mummy) Sykes, Jared (oops I've gone and injured myself for the whole season after 3 games) Payne, and Peter (why don't you tryout with those fullas in Connacht and see how you get on) Borlase. Then you've got decent NIQs who come in to beef up stocks but are already capped Botha, Afoa, Thorn, van der Merwe, etc.

Strauss seems to be the only player who might be considered for selection when he become IQ in October this year. Though he hasn't said so yet, and he's not guaranteed a spot with Best, Cronin and Varley all in the running.

biltongbek wrote:NEQ, NWQ, NIQ, WQ, IQ, EQ

It all boils down to the same thing, foreigners in these clubs.

I don't know why it bugs me so much, but it almost seems like a goal to be achieved.

first goal get foreign players in
second goal, see if you can get them to qualify through parentage or grandparents
Third goal if goal two isn't achieveable let them qualify through residency
Once they are qualified see if they want to commit to playing for the newly qualified country.

Maybe here in the Southern hemisphere things work differently and we are just not used to it, but for me it is about attitude, where is the pride in saying our players are born, bred, developed at home?

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying it can't happen, players are born in one country and develop in another whilst still at school, but to actually have a system designed for this just seems to take a step back in my view.

A lot of clubs have exactly that pride, Quins have been very pleased to be able to play completely English sides but at the same time it's a multiculteral country that we come from and you can't turn away foreigners for being foreign.

Add to that the fact clubs in the NH play a lot more games then the SH and our season is designed for maximum injuries we have to have big squads that can withstand that. Just look at the issues the SR clubs are having with injuries now you're playing a season similar to ours.

Yappy, it isn't the fact that there are foreigners.

The whole fact that there is a qualifying system in effect is what I see a problem with. Maybe I look at this in a differet manner, but if SA were to have this whole Non SA qualified and SA qualified system, it would irk me to no extent.

Yes we do have some players from Zimbabwe and Namibia playing in our system, but this is where they develop.

We don't look for them, and they come here to further a rugby career professionally as their own countries have no sustainable system.

biltongbek wrote:Yappy, it isn't the fact that there are foreigners.

The whole fact that there is a qualifying system in effect is what I see a problem with. Maybe I look at this in a differet manner, but if SA were to have this whole Non SA qualified and SA qualified system, it would irk me to no extent.

Yes we do have some players from Zimbabwe and Namibia playing in our system, but this is where they develop.

We don't look for them, and they come here to further a rugby career professionally as their own countries have no sustainable system.

Foreign players come to Europe to develop their rugby career professionally as their own countries have no sustainable or a poor development, or there are no opportunities to play at a high level.

Stone Motif wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:This year we have seen huge budget teams in the HEC from france and England employing 50% non nationally qualified players fall at the same stage that Ospreys have done repeatedly.

There is little to suggest that such investment is worthwhile.

Panic buying anything that can catch a ball and weighs over 15 stone is not building a team - as an O's fan you should know that

The Irish teams buy quality not quantity, and are the better for it.

You just repeated what I have said throughout this thread. Read before you write.

Ireland are reducin their NIQs for next season too. Plus on last nights account, I wouldn't call SA props VdM and Botha quality at all. Jones, Hibs And james gave them a lesson.

biltongbek wrote:Yappy, it isn't the fact that there are foreigners.

The whole fact that there is a qualifying system in effect is what I see a problem with. Maybe I look at this in a differet manner, but if SA were to have this whole Non SA qualified and SA qualified system, it would irk me to no extent.

Yes we do have some players from Zimbabwe and Namibia playing in our system, but this is where they develop.

We don't look for them, and they come here to further a rugby career professionally as their own countries have no sustainable system.

I don't think we have a system to look for these guys either, I think it's only in Ireland where they have an actual structure in place. The English system is based solely on the clubs needs, none of the clubs are looking to help the national team or find talent abroad for them.

If a Kiwi was to play in SA from the age of 12 could he not be selected for the Boks at say 20? Likewise if he was to play in SA from the age of 20 and opt to play for the national team at 28 would there be any difference?

I am not talking about someone who finished schoolinh outside of his birth country, they effectively developed whilst at school and honing their talent there, it bugs me when a guy has established himself in the after school stucture in his birth country and then once recognised gets "head hunted"

Clyde Rathbone, Tiaan Strauss, Brad Barrit, etc were all successful players in SA before they left.

Perhaps it is the terminology that bugs the life out of me, when someone starts talking about so and so who will soon be qualified.

yappysnap wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Yappy, it isn't the fact that there are foreigners.

The whole fact that there is a qualifying system in effect is what I see a problem with. Maybe I look at this in a differet manner, but if SA were to have this whole Non SA qualified and SA qualified system, it would irk me to no extent.

Yes we do have some players from Zimbabwe and Namibia playing in our system, but this is where they develop.

We don't look for them, and they come here to further a rugby career professionally as their own countries have no sustainable system.

I don't think we have a system to look for these guys either, I think it's only in Ireland where they have an actual structure in place. The English system is based solely on the clubs needs, none of the clubs are looking to help the national team or find talent abroad for them.

If a Kiwi was to play in SA from the age of 12 could he not be selected for the Boks at say 20? Likewise if he was to play in SA from the age of 20 and opt to play for the national team at 28 would there be any difference?

Interesting that you say Ireland are the only ones deliberately doing it cause I've heard Welsh and Scottish players getting very excited about Visser and Dirksen qualifying for Scotland and Wales respectively. Pretty constantly this season I might add. England also have a host of foreigners in their national team - Tuilagi, Barrett, Stevens, Botha.

maestegmafia wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:This year we have seen huge budget teams in the HEC from france and England employing 50% non nationally qualified players fall at the same stage that Ospreys have done repeatedly.

There is little to suggest that such investment is worthwhile.

Panic buying anything that can catch a ball and weighs over 15 stone is not building a team - as an O's fan you should know that

The Irish teams buy quality not quantity, and are the better for it.

You just repeated what I have said throughout this thread. Read before you write.

Ireland are reducin their NIQs for next season too. Plus on last nights account, I wouldn't call SA props VdM and Botha quality at all. Jones, Hibs And james gave them a lesson.

Just to correct you, it was Wian du Preez, not VdM. But the principle is right, they were outscrummaged.

I thought the scrums were pretty even, but going on the commentary from Scrum V you would think Ospreys was much stronger, in fact I can only recall Munster conceding one penalty at the scrum for Botha going straight down and Munster had Ospreys on the back foot in several scrums as well.

It is a myth that the Project player system is in place to get players eligable for Ireland.
It is a compromise by the IRFU to allow the Provinces to get players in position they are short in, not position Ireland are short in.

This can be supported by the fact that no Project player has ever played for Ireland.

Also with the rules from 2013-14 onwards the distinction between NIQ and NIE will probably disappear

geoff999rugby wrote:It is a myth that the Project player system is in place to get players eligable for Ireland.
It is a compromise by the IRFU to allow the Provinces to get players in position they are short in, not position Ireland are short in.

This can be supported by the fact that no Project player has ever played for Ireland.

Also with the rules from 2013-14 onwards the distinction between NIQ and NIE will probably disappear

Sorry Geoff but why dont they just say you can have 6 foreigners instead of 5 plus a project? why is there a distinction, if the IRFU are not hoping for players to qualify for Ireland?

I think all the PRO12 countries should be aiming to have the minimal number of foreigners in their teams. We and Wales only have 4 top level teams. Scotland and Italy only have 2. We need to fill them with national players.

I think Ospreys and Leinster are the closest to being able to have an entirely home grown squad and still be competitive in Europe. Imagine Wales, Scotland and Italy had all their exiles back too. It's a pity Richie Gray decided to go to Sale. For less money than Glasgow were offering I heard. Makes his decision even more confusing. We need to keep stars like him in the PRO12.

maestegmafia wrote:

sugarNspikes wrote:Do you want to progress in the Heineken Cup?

Would like to win the HEC, not just progress.

Baby steps, son. Ospreys have hardly been knocking on the door, in fact they're probably back outside the garden gate now. Walk before you can run. I think you guys still need some hand-holding at the business end of the HC considering the players aren't used to being there. I think your aversion to foreigners is partly because the O's haven't exactly got the mix right in the past. Either that or you just don't like foreigners.

I really don't think we need NWQ players, any we sign will not be world class because we can't afford to match the wages on offer elsewhere.

The HC is a different issue, if you look at how the Ospreys actually got eliminated for the last 2 years you will see we are not that far away. Last season every team in our pool won their home games and we got eliminated on points difference. While this season we had a ref who had no idea how to referee a scrum which heavily resulted in us losing to Saracens at home, as well as a draw in Italy which was just a bad day at the office.

We do need to deliver in Europe though, but we can easily do very well in that competition.

AlynDavies wrote:I really don't think we need NWQ players, any we sign will not be world class because we can't afford to match the wages on offer elsewhere.

The HC is a different issue, if you look at how the Ospreys actually got eliminated for the last 2 years you will see we are not that far away. Last season every team in our pool won their home games and we got eliminated on points difference. While this season we had a ref who had no idea how to referee a scrum which heavily resulted in us losing to Saracens at home, as well as a draw in Italy which was just a bad day at the office.

We do need to deliver in Europe though, but we can easily do very well in that competition.

The O's haven't performed to the expectation of most rugby fans for a long time, only ever showing brief glimpses of realised potential. Under Tandy, Humphreys and Rees they are playing much better rugby consistently week in week out.

sugarNspikes wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

sugarNspikes wrote:Do you want to progress in the Heineken Cup?

Would like to win the HEC, not just progress.

Baby steps, son. Ospreys have hardly been knocking on the door, in fact they're probably back outside the garden gate now. Walk before you can run. I think you guys still need some hand-holding at the business end of the HC considering the players aren't used to being there. I think your aversion to foreigners is partly because the O's haven't exactly got the mix right in the past. Either that or you just don't like foreigners.

There is nothing wrong with not wanting or liking foreigners. I would hate SA franchises to be littered with foreign players. In my view domestic rugby is there to develop depth. There have been a number of polls where posters vote club to them is more important than country, there has also been polls where posters have said country doesn't come before club as the grassroots is where these players come from to represent the country.

All a bit of an oxymoron for me.

I want the Franchises in SA to have the best from the Currie Cup, it is the natural progression to see who can hack it at a higer level, then those that make it at Super Rugby level creates the depth required to form a solid international team.

At leat usually when your country sends a team to represent THE COUNTRY it is from players developed in the system, these days clubs are becoming very much like soccer clubs where a guy supports a team and it isn't a representation of the community anymore, but the representtion of someone's chequebook.

where is the pride in all this?

Can you honestly tell me people are proud of their clubs when the success depends on foreigners? It sounds more like people align them with the name of the club rather than what the club actually represents.

when I take the situation in SA, even though players may not necessarily be foreigners the BIG THREE franchises have a tendency to use their cheque books to buy what they don't have.

The Cheetahs are a prime example of a province that develops players on a yearly basis and yet they struggle to retain their stars becuase their wallets are not big enough.

That is the reason why I can't support a specific province anymore, I rather support the inidividuals I rate and look forward to their individual performances.

Golden wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:It is a myth that the Project player system is in place to get players eligable for Ireland.
It is a compromise by the IRFU to allow the Provinces to get players in position they are short in, not position Ireland are short in.

This can be supported by the fact that no Project player has ever played for Ireland.

Also with the rules from 2013-14 onwards the distinction between NIQ and NIE will probably disappear

Sorry Geoff but why dont they just say you can have 6 foreigners instead of 5 plus a project? why is there a distinction, if the IRFU are not hoping for players to qualify for Ireland?

Because The IRFU didn't want to be seen as weak and agree this as a compromise to save face.
With the new arrangements from 2013 this stupid distinction will be dropped all together.
We are down to 4+1 for next year and the proposal, currently, is 5 total for the following year.
I suspect though that this will go down to 4 but with the Provinces getting some leeway with respect to retaining existing players.

So the IRFU tried to save face by making out they were encouraging the Provinces to bring in ringers for the national side? Depending on your view that backfired a bit didn't it?

The Welsh have had a system that allows for additional 'project players' without calling them that. No different to the Irish one (except there were two places per team not one).

It didn't back fire because the Provinces got the players they wanted, which were not the player the National side wanted.

Thankfully though the whole thing will be dead in the water next summer and the net effect will be that the number of NIQ per provinces will drop from 6 to 4.

The English do it too - the only difference it is managed at a club not a national level.

As I said it depends on your view. From the Provinces point of view it worked great. From the international rugby point of view it looks like the IRFU are ecouraging the Provinces to bring in ringers. That is a loss of 'face'

EDIT: The English do what? NEQ players are treated no differently, regardless to whether they may or may not one day qualify for England. So that's complete cowpat

biltongbek wrote:NEQ, NWQ, NIQ, WQ, IQ, EQ

It all boils down to the same thing, foreigners in these clubs.

I don't know why it bugs me so much, but it almost seems like a goal to be achieved.

You're being way too touchy. The reason EQ or NWQ is used is because it's easily defined. There are IRB criteria for exactly who is what. Simple. There are no guidelines for 'English' or 'Welsh', thank god. And you could say people who have come through the system in that country. But how exactly define that? From birth? From starting rugby? FromU16, U18, U20? First professional gig? Who's to say what is the most important. The French are kind of doing it but then the Armitages count as 'French' players because they lived in France for a couple of years when they were teenagers due to step-father's work. They're not FQ but they are 'French' under their system.

HammerofThunor wrote:As I said it depends on your view. From the Provinces point of view it worked great. From the international rugby point of view it looks like the IRFU are ecouraging the Provinces to bring in ringers. That is a loss of 'face'

EDIT: The English do what? NEQ players are treated no differently, regardless to whether they may or may not one day qualify for England. So that's complete cowpat

The English employ players who are not qualified for England but become so exactly as the Irish provinces do.
The only difference is the central body - club relationship in England compared to Ireland.

Also 'ringers' is inappropriateterm. It is a term for player you employ who is not allowed to play and plays under false pretences - neither the Irish provinces or the English clubs are doing anything illegal by employing non national qualfied players who could end up qualfying by residency.

The only siginificant difference between the Irish, the Welsh and the English is some national bodies impose limits on the number of NQ and NE players and others dont.

HammerofThunor wrote:

biltongbek wrote:NEQ, NWQ, NIQ, WQ, IQ, EQ

It all boils down to the same thing, foreigners in these clubs.

I don't know why it bugs me so much, but it almost seems like a goal to be achieved.

You're being way too touchy. The reason EQ or NWQ is used is because it's easily defined. There are IRB criteria for exactly who is what. Simple. There are no guidelines for 'English' or 'Welsh', thank god. And you could say people who have come through the system in that country. But how exactly define that? From birth? From starting rugby? FromU16, U18, U20? First professional gig? Who's to say what is the most important. The French are kind of doing it but then the Armitages count as 'French' players because they lived in France for a couple of years when they were teenagers due to step-father's work. They're not FQ but they are 'French' under their system.

Hammer, perhaps you should read my other comments, as well, I elaborate more on the subject.

I am not talking about someone who finished schooling outside of his birth country, they effectively developed whilst at school and honing their talent there, it bugs me when a guy has established himself in the after school stucture in his birth country and then once recognised gets "head hunted"

Clyde Rathbone, Tiaan Strauss, Brad Barrit, etc were all successful players in SA before they left.

Perhaps it is the terminology that bugs the life out of me, when someone starts talking about so and so who will soon be qualified..

geoff998rugby wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:As I said it depends on your view. From the Provinces point of view it worked great. From the international rugby point of view it looks like the IRFU are ecouraging the Provinces to bring in ringers. That is a loss of 'face'

EDIT: The English do what? NEQ players are treated no differently, regardless to whether they may or may not one day qualify for England. So that's complete cowpat

The English employ players who are not qualified for England but become so exactly as the Irish provinces do.
The only difference is the central body - club relationship in England compared to Ireland.

Also 'ringers' is inappropriateterm. It is a term for player you employ who is not allowed to play and plays under false pretences - neither the Irish provinces or the English clubs are doing anything illegal by employing non national qualfied players who could end up qualfying by residency.

No. the provinces are allowed a certain number of of players who are not qualified for Ireland but one of these places must be eligible for resisdency qualification in the future. There is nothing comparable in the English system. No difference is made between players tied to another country and those who may qualify one day. Once they do qualify no difference is made between them and someone who is qualified from birth. the RFU give money to the clubs based on the numbers of EQ players. If they go some for NEQ who may qualify one day then fair enough, but they don't.

I'm still failing to see how the IRFU including the 'project' player thing was saving face without encouraging the Province to bring in future IQ players (sorry for using Ringer, it was an incorrect term).

Biltongbek, I read them but I'm still failing to see the issue. Are you saying that someone developed in a country shouldn't be able to play for another? If so how exactly do you want to define it? And I've already said that the EQ, NEQ terms are there because they're easy to define. Barritt was always EQ, even before he was 'headhunted' by South African owned Saracens.

Hammer, my issue is with pride. I don't want to see foreigners in our domestic rugby, I don't want to see them in our national team. I want to be proud of my country and that they compete against other countries from local stock.

I am also defining what bugs me and what doesn't.

If a guy finishes school and decides he wants to move to England, France or where ever that's fine.

Then you make the decision you are not going to play for your birth country.

When I look at a guy like Barrit, he established himself as a professional player in our system, but england benefits from him representing them now.

I anyone proud of that?

To further elaborate.

Playing professional rugby is a job, like anything else. you perform and make a name for yourself and you make money out of it.

That's all good.

When representing you country it is an honour. different story.