The slow death of the 'acid test' in boxing
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John Bloody Wayne
HumanWindmill
azania
88Chris05
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The slow death of the 'acid test' in boxing
How do, fellas? As most know, boxing politics were very different in the early decades of the twentieth century when compared to the modern age. One particular bone of contention today (yet another one which can be at least partly attributed to the rise of the ‘alphabet boys’) is the amount of fighters who ascend to a world title shot without ever having faced anyone of any real note, and having never had to prove themselves in what can be described as ‘the acid test.’
Little protection such as this was offered to fighters in the days of someone such as Harry Greb who, even before contesting a world title, had been matched with fighters of the calibre of Gene Tunney, Mike McTigue, Jack Dillon and Battling Levinsky amongst others. A little later on, Henry Armstrong was given the task of toppling superb Featherweight champions such as Benny Bass, Baby Arizmendi and Mike Belloise before he was even given a chance to contest the ‘real’ 126 lb crown (his claim up until 1937 had only been accepted in California). As World War Two concluded, Ray Robinson had already put Sammy Angott, Fritzie Zivic and Jake La Motta to the sword before even being allowed in to the title picture, and not long before that Billy Conn had been facing off against quality as high as the aforementioned Zivic, Vince Dundee, Teddy Yarosz and Fred Apostoli when dreams of a world title shot at either 160 lb or 175 lb were still just a dream, rather than a probability.
Simply put, you just don’t see this happening as often the more you go along the boxing timeline – and in this day and age, we seldom see it at all. The ‘acid test’ to prove a fighter’s mettle and their world title credentials is a thing of the past, or so it would seem.
So my question is, who, in the post-war era, has had the toughest road to a world title? Who served an apprenticeship that would guarantee they would never be overwhelmed at the highest level when a world title was on the line? In short, which fighters have had to win world titles the hard way, facing off against a host of former / future champions – some of them genuine greats – along the way?
Again, I think it’s a sad indictment that many of the first names which spring to mind for me (Eder Jofre, Manuel Ortiz, Alexis Arguello and so on) are still a long way removed from the sport as we see it today, and it’s also interesting to note that the names which have, for me, instantly come to mind all hail from Central or Latin America, as opposed to the United States. Certainly lends credence to the theory that the USA is keen to protect the streams of coverage and revenue which, in most cases, only they can provide.
Obviously, the likes of the ‘Black Murderers Row’ fighters were never likely to be afforded a title shot anyway, despite mixing it with some tremendous company, but if anyone has any other suggestions then I’d be interested in hearing them.
Cheers, everyone.
Little protection such as this was offered to fighters in the days of someone such as Harry Greb who, even before contesting a world title, had been matched with fighters of the calibre of Gene Tunney, Mike McTigue, Jack Dillon and Battling Levinsky amongst others. A little later on, Henry Armstrong was given the task of toppling superb Featherweight champions such as Benny Bass, Baby Arizmendi and Mike Belloise before he was even given a chance to contest the ‘real’ 126 lb crown (his claim up until 1937 had only been accepted in California). As World War Two concluded, Ray Robinson had already put Sammy Angott, Fritzie Zivic and Jake La Motta to the sword before even being allowed in to the title picture, and not long before that Billy Conn had been facing off against quality as high as the aforementioned Zivic, Vince Dundee, Teddy Yarosz and Fred Apostoli when dreams of a world title shot at either 160 lb or 175 lb were still just a dream, rather than a probability.
Simply put, you just don’t see this happening as often the more you go along the boxing timeline – and in this day and age, we seldom see it at all. The ‘acid test’ to prove a fighter’s mettle and their world title credentials is a thing of the past, or so it would seem.
So my question is, who, in the post-war era, has had the toughest road to a world title? Who served an apprenticeship that would guarantee they would never be overwhelmed at the highest level when a world title was on the line? In short, which fighters have had to win world titles the hard way, facing off against a host of former / future champions – some of them genuine greats – along the way?
Again, I think it’s a sad indictment that many of the first names which spring to mind for me (Eder Jofre, Manuel Ortiz, Alexis Arguello and so on) are still a long way removed from the sport as we see it today, and it’s also interesting to note that the names which have, for me, instantly come to mind all hail from Central or Latin America, as opposed to the United States. Certainly lends credence to the theory that the USA is keen to protect the streams of coverage and revenue which, in most cases, only they can provide.
Obviously, the likes of the ‘Black Murderers Row’ fighters were never likely to be afforded a title shot anyway, despite mixing it with some tremendous company, but if anyone has any other suggestions then I’d be interested in hearing them.
Cheers, everyone.
88Chris05- Moderator
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Re: The slow death of the 'acid test' in boxing
The only one I can recall was Hagler. He paid his dues fighting the best Philly had to offer and was robbed blind by the judges when he fought a draw against Antuerfermo. Made amends against Minter.
he never had the judges in his corner and they often worked against him. An example was the close decision against Duran which imo he won by a country mile.
Nowadays fighters are wrapped in cotton wool to protect their 0.
he never had the judges in his corner and they often worked against him. An example was the close decision against Duran which imo he won by a country mile.
Nowadays fighters are wrapped in cotton wool to protect their 0.
azania- Posts : 19471
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Re: The slow death of the 'acid test' in boxing
Good point on Hagler there, Azania. Certainly can't accuse him of being protected on his way up. I think he'd only had something like fifteen or sixteen fights before he beat Seales (who was rated pretty highly at the time) and he became a man to avoid for a while.
88Chris05- Moderator
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Re: The slow death of the 'acid test' in boxing
Excellent article, Chris.
Post war I'd say that Walcott, Charles and Moore would be among those who had the hardest apprenticeships, though their trails BEGAN pre war, of course.
One of my favourites, Carmen Basilio, had to fight Billy Graham three times and Ike Williams once before getting a shot at Kid Gavilan. Your man Emile Griffith had a couple of top notch scalps before getting his hands on a title, also.
Post war I'd say that Walcott, Charles and Moore would be among those who had the hardest apprenticeships, though their trails BEGAN pre war, of course.
One of my favourites, Carmen Basilio, had to fight Billy Graham three times and Ike Williams once before getting a shot at Kid Gavilan. Your man Emile Griffith had a couple of top notch scalps before getting his hands on a title, also.
HumanWindmill- VIP
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Re: The slow death of the 'acid test' in boxing
Great article
Charles had beaten Charley Burley twice, Joey Maxim, Archie Moore, Billy Smith, Loyd Marshall, Jimmy Bivins, Elmer Ray, many of these multiple times and sometimes avenging early career defeats before winning his first world title against Walcott, and confirming his status as champ against Joe Louis. Tha's a hall of fame career before even holding a belt!
Charles had beaten Charley Burley twice, Joey Maxim, Archie Moore, Billy Smith, Loyd Marshall, Jimmy Bivins, Elmer Ray, many of these multiple times and sometimes avenging early career defeats before winning his first world title against Walcott, and confirming his status as champ against Joe Louis. Tha's a hall of fame career before even holding a belt!
John Bloody Wayne- Posts : 4460
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Re: The slow death of the 'acid test' in boxing
Marlon Starling fought Curry twice, Simon Brown, Tommy Ayers, Johnny Bumphus and god knows who else before Breland...
He had a real apprenticeship.................
He had a real apprenticeship.................
TRUSSMAN66- Posts : 40681
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Re: The slow death of the 'acid test' in boxing
Windy, JBW and Trussman, all good shouts there, and it only serves to show even more how far departed we are from such examples now. People have been raving about the company that Alvarez has been mixing it with before getting a title chance, pointing in particular to his win over Baldomir. Says it all, really. Nothing against Alvarez (who I tend to rate a little higher than some others do) as he is, like Khan, Bradley, Berto etc, a product of his times and environment. But it really does put things in to context and perspective.
88Chris05- Moderator
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Re: The slow death of the 'acid test' in boxing
As has been mentioned the problem being there is so many belts nobody seems or have to take the tough road to the title these days, where as fighters such as Charles/Basillio etc could only fight for one title, and had to make there way through the field, and depending on how good they were, may never even get a shot. Also it's been mentioned about protecting fighters unbeaten records for TV companies etc, both combined aren't good for the sport. Although pre war, Charles certainly takes some beating.
The Galveston Giant- Posts : 5333
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Re: The slow death of the 'acid test' in boxing
They may have an easy road to get to the top and win a belt. But when they become champion, they are still protected and have easy defences. Many of the best in eash weight will simply fight for either a vacant belt of look to the easiest and most winnable champ to take on. Or even add weight stipulations.
Bring in more super 6 like tournaments. add financial penalties if they pull out for no good reason (if they choose to retire, fine them if they make a comeback).
Bring in more super 6 like tournaments. add financial penalties if they pull out for no good reason (if they choose to retire, fine them if they make a comeback).
azania- Posts : 19471
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Re: The slow death of the 'acid test' in boxing
Out of the modern champions it is really really hard to think of any that have had a hard route to a world title. There are quite a few who have excellent records and have beat good fighters along the way but most of this happens when they already are champions.
bellchees- Posts : 1776
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Re: The slow death of the 'acid test' in boxing
Chris this is one of my pet subjects and one of the reasons I am very much in the camp that believes the overall quality in the sport has declined. Promoters, fans and TV companies are far too obsessed with protecting fighters unbeaten records than putting them in risky fights were they may actually learn something even if it comes at the cost of a loss.
As you have already mentioned Robinson and Burley were fed Zivic within a couple of years of going pro, could you see a promoter nowadays putting a prospect in with Zivic, but as Sugar Ray says he learned more in those fights than all his others put together. For me it really hurts fighters, look at Danny Jacobs a few months ago, he is a relatively talented kid but when someone had the temerity to actually hit him back and not go over as soon as he was touched the kid was clueless, this IMO is solely because he hasn't had the grounding of tough fights to actually learn how to react to adversity until he is in a world title fight.
The likes of Truss have come up with some decent examples of guys who buck this trend but they seem very much the exception rather than the norm and that is a pity.
As you have already mentioned Robinson and Burley were fed Zivic within a couple of years of going pro, could you see a promoter nowadays putting a prospect in with Zivic, but as Sugar Ray says he learned more in those fights than all his others put together. For me it really hurts fighters, look at Danny Jacobs a few months ago, he is a relatively talented kid but when someone had the temerity to actually hit him back and not go over as soon as he was touched the kid was clueless, this IMO is solely because he hasn't had the grounding of tough fights to actually learn how to react to adversity until he is in a world title fight.
The likes of Truss have come up with some decent examples of guys who buck this trend but they seem very much the exception rather than the norm and that is a pity.
Rowley- Admin
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Re: The slow death of the 'acid test' in boxing
I know that in his case it was downright prejudice, but Sonny Liston would take some beating in this issue. Sonny pretty much cleaned out the cream of the heavies before getting a shot at Patterson.
Lightheavy legend Bob Foster went in with some very good men before getting his hands on the title, also, including heavies Folley and Terrell, along with Doug Jones, who gave Ali such a difficult night's work. Foster was in with Henry Hank as well.
Lightheavy legend Bob Foster went in with some very good men before getting his hands on the title, also, including heavies Folley and Terrell, along with Doug Jones, who gave Ali such a difficult night's work. Foster was in with Henry Hank as well.
HumanWindmill- VIP
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Re: The slow death of the 'acid test' in boxing
Another one of the modern guys who really struggled the first time they've fought a live opponent is a young American called Adrien Broner. He looks an exceptional talent and a really gifted athlete but when Daniel Ponce de Leon wasn't going to let him just fight from the outside at his own pace he looked a bit puzzled. He took the decision but it was quite a bad one in a fight most scored for Ponce de Leon. The judge who gave it 99-91 to Broner needs his head looked at.
bellchees- Posts : 1776
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Re: The slow death of the 'acid test' in boxing
Was gonna suggest Hagler myself but he's already been mentioned, how about Glen Johnson of recent fighters?
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Re: The slow death of the 'acid test' in boxing
Good shout on Johnson, he certainly done the rounds a bit before becoming champ.
The Galveston Giant- Posts : 5333
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Re: The slow death of the 'acid test' in boxing
I'm not so sure about Johnson. He beat a lot of rubbish before getting his shot at Hopkins which was his acid test really and that was for the title. He then beat some more no marks before getting a shot at Ottke, and Johnson was 4-3 in his last 7 fights going into that one.
bellchees- Posts : 1776
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