Heineken Cup Final

Team sheets and tactics due by COB Thur
Predictions open Fri. Results due Sat

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Saracens v Gloucester Rugby
White Cloud, 13 Degrees, 15 mph Winds

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Saracens
Manager – Ozzy3213

01. Alex Corbisiero	09. Francois Hougaard
02. Bismarck du Plessis	10. Patric Lambie
03. Jannie du Plessis
04. Dave Attwood	11. Digby Ioane
05. Rynhardt Elstadt	12. Owen Farrell
06. Tom Wood	13. Jonathon Davies
07. George Smith (c)	14. Andrew Trimble
08. Alessandro Zanni	15. Alex Goode

16. George Chuter 17. Max Lahiff 18. Adam Jones 19. Graham Kitchener 20. Tom Johnson 21. Morgan Parra 22. Ma'a Nonu 23. Tom Homer

Tactics

Our generic gameplan revolves around a high intensity attacking and defensive game.

In attack our primary gameplan is always to control possession and run the ball, utilising big carriers attacking gaps in the line, and looking to offload to support runners to continue getting over the gainline and keep the ball alive. If running the ball is not on we will uitilise the kicking game of one of our backs to take us into the right area of the pitch.

In defence we will look to blitz, with our scrum half sweeping behind the defensive line. Key for us is line speed, getting up to make the tackle before the ball carrier hits the gainline, and confidence and trust in the man next to you in the defensive line, meaning we will not jump out or get pulled to far away from the next defender leaving gaps that can be exploited.

At the breakdown, we will not overcommit players. If the ball is not there to be won, then we will commit 1 or 2 players to legally slow it down whilst maintaining a strong defensive line across the pitch. If the ball looks like it is there to be won, we will look to get more numbers there quickly, with the first 1 or 2 players immediately rucking past the ball to clear the opposition players who are trying to get hands on it, and the next man in will then look to get it out quickly for us to counter attack on turnover ball.

At the scrum we will look to keep it up and scrummage. Jones will look to take the hit and drop anchor allowing Corbisiero to attack the opposition tighthead. On our ball we will keep our flankers bound in tight and shoving hard behind the props and we will look to get the scrum turning legally to take the Gloucester back row out of the defensive equation before launching attacks. Our flankers will play slightly looser with heads up on Gloucester ball in order to be of quickly to stop any set play attacks.


Game Specific Tactics

• Carry in tight areas of early phases – We have selected a lot of strong carriers in the pack and the backs and will get them carrying close to rucks to tie defenders in create gaps to exploit outside.
  
  
• Scrum half sniping – Hougaard will look to make breaks from the base of rucks any time he sees a gap. Knowing he can and will break will keep the Gloucester defensive line honest and give Lambie more time and space to work in.
  
  
• Control Possession and Territory – When it is right to do so we will carry and recycle and go through the phases. Farrell has been selected this week however to ensure that we do so in the right areas areas of the pitch. If kicking we will look to go in behind the Gloucester wingers forcing them to go back before gathering and turning, thereby giving our wingers and defensive line time to get up quickly and shut them down. Once there we will try to isolate the ball carrier and turn the ball over if possible.
  
  
• Breakdown – When Gloucester carry in, unless the player is isolated and a turnover is on, we will only commit enough players to legally slow the ball, instead maintaining a strong defensive line.
  

Key Points

• Fatigue Issue – In relation to last weeks extra time, all of our front row would have been replaced before the hour mark, so played no longer than they would have in any other game. Likewise one of our locks and back row players would also have been replaced meaning they did not play a full game. Three players would have played the full game and I have rested those 3 players this week to avoid fatigue being an issue. Having looked backed Adam Jones has had a reasonably high workload whereas Bismarck was rested recently and Corbisiero was out injured for a bit so had an enforced rest, therefore Jones has been dropped to the bench this week. We come in fresh enough but battle hardened, whereas some of Mat's players who have been left out the last week or two (2 consecutive defeats) may be coming in cold and will take time to get up with the speed of the game.
  
  
• Form/Momentum – We have a number of players who are in excellent real life form. In game we have huge momentum coming into the match, including winning a huge battle last week. That was Glocuesters 2nd consecutive defeat and bumps and bruises from games always hurt more after a defeat. Mentally they may struggle to pick themselves back up this week whereas we will be mentally readily, knowing that we are able to win in these tight situations. We have all the momentum which is huge at this stage of the season.
  
  
• Pivotal Moments - At this stage of the season there are always pivotal moments and last week was one of them. We come in battle hardened and confident as a result of winning that game which gives us the momentum to go on and win from here. Look at Saints last season, lost the AP semi final against Tigers and then the following week couldn't close the game out against a confident Leinster side, who the week before when Saints were losing to Tigers, themselves beat Ulster in the Magners play off semi. Sports history is littered with these sort of cases and last weeks win should give us a huge advantage.
  
  
• Gloucester Players Real Life Form I don't like doing this and have not talked about opposition players for while now, but feel that I have to point out some real form issues amongst the Gloucester team as this is a final.
  
  1 Wood - Been injured for a while now and not world class so surely cannot carry much rating form wise.
  5 Palmer - Out of form for Stade to the point that he has started 3 T14 matches since the beginning of January and been a replacement once. Stade have not won any of the games that he has started in.
  7 Burger - Been injured all season so has no form to speak of.
  9 Genia - Been very hit and miss this season, and more miss to be honest, with decision making being well below the standard he has previously set for himself.
  10 Carter - Just back from injury and not playing 10 due to being unable to kick. World class player but no form so surely rating has to come down a bit for him.
  11 Sharples - Very poor last few months of the season. Always an attacking threat but at times a defensive liability at present.
  12 Barnes - Been very below par for the Waratahs this season has failed to control games in the way he has done in the past.
  14 May - Very poor last few months of the season. Always an attacking threat but at times a defensive liability at present.
  
  
• Defensive Strength – Defensively we are solid through the team. In the pack and backs we have tackle machines who rarely if ever get beaten one on one. Unless Gloucester have 70%+ possession then I cannot see how they score enough points against this defence to win.
  
  
• Physicality – One of Gloucesters biggest strengths is usually their physicality and they can bully teams up front. We have a pack with enough physicality not to be bullied.
  
  
• Locks/Lineout – We have selected two enforcer type locks who will bring a lot in the loose and in the scrum. As a result Tom Wood will lead the lineout, with both locks effective jumpers but not really lineout leaders. We also have Smith and Zanni who are options to hit as well.
  
  
• Bench – We have impact players to come of the bench, such as Lahiff, Jones, Kitchener, Johnson and Nonu, as well as key decision makers and tactical kickers such as Parra and Homer who can come on to see out a game.
  

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Gloucester
Manager – Current Heineken cup holder Mat

01. Nick Wood	09. Will Genia
02. Joe Gray	10. Dan Carter
03. Mas
04. Richie Gray	11. Sharples
05. Tom Palmer	12. Berrick Barnes
06.Bonnaire	13. Juan de Jongh
07. Schalk Burger	14. Johnny May
08. Alberts	15. Israel Dagg

16. jamie George 17. Payne 18.Harinordoqouy 19. George Robson 20.Julian White 21. Dave Lewis 22. Richard Kahui 23. johan Goosen


Gloucester overall game plan.

Gloucester are going to play a high intensity attacking game based on sheer physicality and carrying to get on the front foot before. Our aim is to control possession and therefore the intensity.

We have changed all of the pack bar Gray and having rested a few last week we feel we have the side to really put it to Saracens. We have packed the side with ball carriers and feel this is a major advantage for us as Saracens seem to be lacking a few.

The ball carriers are going to allow us to get to the right positions on the pitch where we can really ramp up the pace. Also by carrying the ball so relentlessly we will be able to tire the opposition allowing holes for our back to go through.

If in the wrong part of the pack and things are not happening we will look to use the kicking game of carter and barnes to put us in the right areas.

In the right areas of the park we will be looking for carter to use the options outside him. Genia has been in super form the last 3 games being pretty much man of the match in them all and he will be looking to keep sarries honest whilst giving himself the option to hit carter with quick front foot ball.

From quick ball carter and barnes are looking to supply the bullets and isolate match ups outwide for may, Sharples and Dagg


Defensively we will be sending numbers in to the break down and using our physicality to really upset the sarries pack which is not the most physical in the world. we will also be looking to pressure the 10, 12 channel as this is new lineup for sarries and Farrell is certainly not known
for his attacking prowess.

Game Specific Tactics

1. Carry the ball relentlessly and put Sarries on the back foot. our physicality is much more than theirs.
2. Target lineout. We have a much better selection and experienced lineout outfit. Attwood Elstdadt and Wood vs Gray, Palmer and Bonnaire is a mismatch. this will further strangle possession.
3. Breakdown- We will send numbers in and try and disrupt their breakdown forcing turnovers or give messy ball.
4. Target 9,10,12- Hougaard is still learning his way at SH and genia will aim to exploit this. Same with 10 and 12. Lambie and Farrell are against proven WC performers in a big game. Big game temperament cannot be questioned of Genia, Carter and Barnes


Key points

1. Fatigue- We have rotated 7 of our pack and 3 of our backs and have been saving ourself for this game. Also we can afford to go 100% and not leave anything on the field unlike sarries who have to play next week

2. Ball carriers. Too keep the ball and keep possession like both teams want to in their tactics then ball carriers are required. We see Sarries as lacking in this area. Zanni, Janni, Elstadt, attwood smith and Wood are hardly great carriers.

3. Real life form - i will tackle pete's points here and not mention the players in his team who are out of form, there are a number though


1 Wood - Been injured since mid march so should not be losing ratings. was nominated for prem player of the year so great form

5 Palmer - Stade been in disarray this season, palmer is an international and if he is out of form he is still rated higher by the england management than Attwood. Also elstadt has played about 5 games this year all of them at flanker so he may be getting used to the second row in a heino final.
7 Burger - Been injured since end of world cup but is world class.Tom wood has been out all season so and is not world class so i imagine burger will be rated higher
9 Genia - Been brilliant in the last 3 games. Coincidentally when he is playing well the reds have been winning. also been playing in an injury ravaged side

10 Carter - i do not even need to comment where Carter is concerned. Best 10 in the world

11 Sharples - Been average in the last 2 months as needed an operation and in a poor glos side. As you said he is always an attacking threat and we will be doing the attacking as we will have the ball

12 Barnes - Been very good in the last few weeks again and some of his distribution for tries in the last few weeks has been immense

14 May - Glos have won no ball in the last 2 months whenever he receives the ball loooks dangerous. he is touched by magic and is simply dynamite


4. bench- We have real game changers to come on in hari, goosen, kahui etc.

5. Mentality- this is our final game we can put everything in to it and know we do not have to play next week. we are the current holders and know how to win it. Its a neutral venue and we almost beat sarrries away last week. sarries will have one eye on next weeks final

Round 2... Ding ding!

Jeez how do we do this again!!

Think i may have to rotate a few for freshness. Great conditions again. bring it on.

think pete will definitely have to rotate a bit. extra time against you, now a final against you and the AP final to come!

didny you lose two finals one year matt?

Yes nick its all about Heino for me now. Then they can enjoy the rest and put their feet up

Tough to contest on two fronts but fair play for getting to two finals, sign of a great squad.

Cracking conditions, should be a peach. Good luck lads

yeh pete has got some big decisions to make.
needs to get the balance right

Will be tougher next season to compete on two fronts than it was this season. I played a reserve side in a lot of Heineken Cup matches, a 3rd string side in the Anglo Welsh and rotated my first choice side in the league due to having 55 senior players to choose from.

Big decisions on who to rest this week, am going to have a look back and see how many games a few of my players have played before finalising my side.

SJE, can I ask you to draw up a 9 point list as a decider in case we get to the same situation as last week. Am saying 9 as we can't go with 10 and then league position if it's still level this time. All deciders will need to relate to Heineken Cup performance this season.

Cheers mate.

Will tidy up later but so you can see the team pete

1.wood
2. Gray
3. Mas
4 Gray
5 Palmer
6 Bonnaire
7 Burger
8 Alberts
9 Genia
10 Carter
11 Sharples
12 Barnes
13 Dejongh
14 May
15 Dagg
16 Payne
17 George
18 White
19 Robson
20 Hari
21 Lewis
22 Goosen
23 Kahui

Saracens make 6 changes to the starting XV that beat Gloucester last weekend for this weeks Heineken Cup Final against the same opposition. In the pack Jannie du Plessis, Dave Attwood, George Smith and Alessandro Zanni replace Adam Jones, Steve Borthwick, Thierry Dusautoir and Joe van Niekerk, with Owen Farrell and Andrew Trimble coming into backline in place of Ma'a Nonu and Mark Cueto. Head coach Ozzy3213 had this to say.

“Last weekends game was as tough as they come, so we had to make a few changes this week to ensure that we stay fresh out there. Steve (Borthwick), Thierry (Dusautoir) and Joe (van Niekerk) were the only three of the pack to play the whole game including extra time, so they have been left out altogether this week as they took a real pounding out there. We are fortunate to be able to replace them with 3 full internationals, all of whom have been in excellent form this this season. I am sure it will be another monumental game, but it is one that we are very keen to win as the Heineken Cup is a trophy we have yet to put in the cabinet.”

Saracens
Manager – Ozzy3213

01. Alex Corbisiero	09. Francois Hougaard
02. Bismarck du Plessis	10. Patric Lambie
03. Jannie du Plessis
04. Dave Attwood	11. Digby Ioane
05. Rynhardt Elstadt	12. Owen Farrell
06. Tom Wood	13. Jonathon Davies
07. George Smith (c)	14. Andrew Trimble
08. Alessandro Zanni	15. Alex Goode

16. George Chuter 17. Max Lahiff 18. Adam Jones 19. Graham Kitchener 20. Tom Johnson 21. Morgan Parra 22. Ma'a Nonu 23. Tom Homer

Tactics

Our generic gameplan revolves around a high intensity attacking and defensive game.

In attack our primary gameplan is always to control possession and run the ball, utilising big carriers attacking gaps in the line, and looking to offload to support runners to continue getting over the gainline and keep the ball alive. If running the ball is not on we will uitilise the kicking game of one of our backs to take us into the right area of the pitch.

In defence we will look to blitz, with our scrum half sweeping behind the defensive line. Key for us is line speed, getting up to make the tackle before the ball carrier hits the gainline, and confidence and trust in the man next to you in the defensive line, meaning we will not jump out or get pulled to far away from the next defender leaving gaps that can be exploited.

At the breakdown, we will not overcommit players. If the ball is not there to be won, then we will commit 1 or 2 players to legally slow it down whilst maintaining a strong defensive line across the pitch. If the ball looks like it is there to be won, we will look to get more numbers there quickly, with the first 1 or 2 players immediately rucking past the ball to clear the opposition players who are trying to get hands on it, and the next man in will then look to get it out quickly for us to counter attack on turnover ball.

At the scrum we will look to keep it up and scrummage. Jones will look to take the hit and drop anchor allowing Corbisiero to attack the opposition tighthead. On our ball we will keep our flankers bound in tight and shoving hard behind the props and we will look to get the scrum turning legally to take the Gloucester back row out of the defensive equation before launching attacks. Our flankers will play slightly looser with heads up on Gloucester ball in order to be of quickly to stop any set play attacks.


Game Specific Tactics

• Carry in tight areas of early phases – We have selected a lot of strong carriers in the pack and the backs and will get them carrying close to rucks to tie defenders in create gaps to exploit outside.
  
  
• Scrum half sniping – Hougaard will look to make breaks from the base of rucks any time he sees a gap. Knowing he can and will break will keep the Gloucester defensive line honest and give Lambie more time and space to work in.
  
  
• Control Possession and Territory – When it is right to do so we will carry and recycle and go through the phases. Farrell has been selected this week however to ensure that we do so in the right areas areas of the pitch. If kicking we will look to go in behind the Gloucester wingers forcing them to go back before gathering and turning, thereby giving our wingers and defensive line time to get up quickly and shut them down. Once there we will try to isolate the ball carrier and turn the ball over if possible.
  
  
• Breakdown – When Gloucester carry in, unless the player is isolated and a turnover is on, we will only commit enough players to legally slow the ball, instead maintaining a strong defensive line.
  

Key Points

• Fatigue Issue – In relation to last weeks extra time, all of our front row would have been replaced before the hour mark, so played no longer than they would have in any other game. Likewise one of our locks and back row players would also have been replaced meaning they did not play a full game. Three players would have played the full game and I have rested those 3 players this week to avoid fatigue being an issue. Having looked backed Adam Jones has had a reasonably high workload whereas Bismarck was rested recently and Corbisiero was out injured for a bit so had an enforced rest, therefore Jones has been dropped to the bench this week. We come in fresh enough but battle hardened, whereas some of Mat's players who have been left out the last week or two (2 consecutive defeats) may be coming in cold and will take time to get up with the speed of the game.
  
  
• Form/Momentum – We have a number of players who are in excellent real life form. In game we have huge momentum coming into the match, including winning a huge battle last week. That was Glocuesters 2nd consecutive defeat and bumps and bruises from games always hurt more after a defeat. Mentally they may struggle to pick themselves back up this week whereas we will be mentally readily, knowing that we are able to win in these tight situations. We have all the momentum which is huge at this stage of the season.
  
  
• Pivotal Moments - At this stage of the season there are always pivotal moments and last week was one of them. We come in battle hardened and confident as a result of winning that game which gives us the momentum to go on and win from here. Look at Saints last season, lost the AP semi final against Tigers and then the following week couldn't close the game out against a confident Leinster side, who the week before when Saints were losing to Tigers, themselves beat Ulster in the Magners play off semi. Sports history is littered with these sort of cases and last weeks win should give us a huge advantage.
  
  
• Gloucester Players Real Life Form I don't like doing this and have not talked about opposition players for while now, but feel that I have to point out some real form issues amongst the Gloucester team as this is a final.
  
  1 Wood - Been injured for a while now and not world class so surely cannot carry much rating form wise.
  5 Palmer - Out of form for Stade to the point that he has started 3 T14 matches since the beginning of January and been a replacement once. Stade have not won any of the games that he has started in.
  7 Burger - Been injured all season so has no form to speak of.
  9 Genia - Been very hit and miss this season, and more miss to be honest, with decision making being well below the standard he has previously set for himself.
  10 Carter - Just back from injury and not playing 10 due to being unable to kick. World class player but no form so surely rating has to come down a bit for him.
  11 Sharples - Very poor last few months of the season. Always an attacking threat but at times a defensive liability at present.
  12 Barnes - Been very below par for the Waratahs this season has failed to control games in the way he has done in the past.
  14 May - Very poor last few months of the season. Always an attacking threat but at times a defensive liability at present.
  
  
• Defensive Strength – Defensively we are solid through the team. In the pack and backs we have tackle machines who rarely if ever get beaten one on one. Unless Gloucester have 70%+ possession then I cannot see how they score enough points against this defence to win.
  
  
• Physicality – One of Gloucesters biggest strengths is usually their physicality and they can bully teams up front. We have a pack with enough physicality not to be bullied.
  
  
• Locks/Lineout – We have selected two enforcer type locks who will bring a lot in the loose and in the scrum. As a result Tom Wood will lead the lineout, with both locks effective jumpers but not really lineout leaders. We also have Smith and Zanni who are options to hit as well.
  
  
• Bench – We have impact players to come of the bench, such as Lahiff, Jones, Kitchener, Johnson and Nonu, as well as key decision makers and tactical kickers such as Parra and Homer who can come on to see out a game.
  

Yeah sure Pete mate

It must be a cup final, I've just found some footage of Hougaard gassing Carter in the Super XV. Conditions look good for a repeat in this game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo_q9a8liKY&feature=related

And Digby...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQgLmOd06PM

Patric Lambie's most recent form...

http://www.espnscrum.com/super-rugby-2012/rugby/match/151339.html (scores all 28 points for the Sharks as they beat the Highlanders)

http://www.espnscrum.com/super-rugby-2012/rugby/match/151346.html (steers the Sharks to a 53-11 win against the Force)

Pete no time to get in to this I will show you officially try of season johnny may http://www.rugbyworld.com/news/whats-your-aviva-premiership-try-of-the-season/

Good to see digby scoring in between bans.

LAmbie in good form

Pete as a taxpayer we would expect to see more time spent on work rather than on here in these austere times.

No wonder they want you guys to work past 50

I'm at home, I know they want me to do more for less but surely they don't mean working from here!

Gloucester
Manager – Current Heineken cup holder Mat

01. Nick Wood	09. Will Genia
02. Joe Gray	10. Dan Carter
03. Mas
04. Richie Gray	11. Sharples
05. Tom Palmer	12. Berrick Barnes
06.Bonnaire/td][td]13. Juan de Jongh
07. Schalk Burger[td][td]14. Johnny May
08. Alberts	15. Israel Dagg

16. jamie George 17. Payne 18.Harinordoqouy 19. George Robson 20.Julian White 21. Dave Lewis 22. Richard Kahui 23. johan Goosen


Gloucester overall game plan.

Gloucester are going to play a high intensity attacking game based on sheer physicality and carrying to get on the front foot before. Our aim is to control possession and therefore the intensity.

We have changed all of the pack bar Gray and having rested a few last week we feel we have the side to really put it to Saracens. We have packed the side with ball carriers and feel this is a major advantage for us as Saracens seem to be lacking a few.

The ball carriers are going to allow us to get to the right positions on the pitch where we can really ramp up the pace. Also by carrying the ball so relentlessly we will be able to tire the opposition allowing holes for our back to go through.

If in the wrong part of the pack and things are not happening we will look to use the kicking game of carter and barnes to put us in the right areas.

In the right areas of the park we will be looking for carter to use the options outside him. Genia has been in super form the last 3 games being pretty much man of the match in them all and he will be looking to keep sarries honest whilst giving himself the option to hit carter with quick front foot ball.

From quick ball carter and barnes are looking to supply the bullets and isolate match ups outwide for may, Sharples and Dagg


Defensively we will be sending numbers in to the break down and using our physicality to really upset the sarries pack which is not the most physical in the world. we will also be looking to pressure the 10, 12 channel as this is new lineup for sarries and Farrell is certainly not known
for his attacking prowess.

Game Specific Tactics

1. Carry the ball relentlessly and put Sarries on the back foot. our physicality is much more than theirs.
2. Target lineout. We have a much better selection and experienced lineout outfit. Attwood Elstdadt and Wood vs Gray, Palmer and Bonnaire is a mismatch. this will further strangle possession.
3. Breakdown- We will send numbers in and try and disrupt their breakdown forcing turnovers or give messy ball.
4. Target 9,10,12- Hougaard is still learning his way at SH and genia will aim to exploit this. Same with 10 and 12. Lambie and Farrell are against proven WC performers in a big game. Big game temperament cannot be questioned of Genia, Carter and Barnes


Key points

1. Fatigue- We have rotated 7 of our pack and 3 of our backs and have been saving ourself for this game. Also we can afford to go 100% and not leave anything on the field unlike sarries who have to play next week

2. Ball carriers. Too keep the ball and keep possession like both teams want to in their tactics then ball carriers are required. We see Sarries as lacking in this area. Zanni, Janni, Elstadt, attwood smith and Wood are hardly great carriers.

3. Real life form - i will tackle pete's points here and not mention the players in his team who are out of form, there are a number though


1 Wood - Been injured since mid march so should not be losing ratings. was nominated for prem player of the year so great form

5 Palmer - Stade been in disarray this season, palmer is an international and if he is out of form he is still rated higher by the england management than Attwood. Also elstadt has played about 5 games this year all of them at flanker so he may be getting used to the second row in a heino final.
7 Burger - Been injured since end of world cup but is world class.Tom wood has been out all season so and is not world class so i imagine burger will be rated higher
9 Genia - Been brilliant in the last 3 games. Coincidentally when he is playing well the reds have been winning. also been playing in an injury ravaged side

10 Carter - i do not even need to comment where Carter is concerned. Best 10 in the world

11 Sharples - Been average in the last 2 months as needed an operation and in a poor glos side. As you said he is always an attacking threat and we will be doing the attacking as we will have the ball

12 Barnes - Been very good in the last few weeks again and some of his distribution for tries in the last few weeks has been immense

14 May - Glos have won no ball in the last 2 months whenever he receives the ball loooks dangerous. he is touched by magic and is simply dynamite


4. bench- We have real game changers to come on in hari, goosen, kahui etc.

5. Mentality- this is our final game we can put everything in to it and know we do not have to play next week. we are the current holders and know how to win it. Its a neutral venue and we almost beat sarrries away last week. sarries will have one eye on next weeks final

good luck pete another epic i imagine

I just dont know how you do it Matt! I'll tidy the team format up for you mate when I update the page

SJE i am special and its my own style

Best of luck to you as well Mat.

SJE

I am not planning ot add anything to what I have already put, and suspect that Mat is the same, so I am happy for predictions to be opened early on this one once you are able to update the thread.

Oh, other than that the Heineken Cup has only ever been retained once, and that was over 10 years ago by Leicester.

Some hard core patter this week

i am happy for predos to open asap Pete

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Some hard core patter this week

Always is in the finals, am looking forward to reading what you have up your sleeve for next week mate!!!

Just tactics mate, let my team do the talking

Sarries 28-24 Glos

Front row edges to Sarries with BDP getting under Gray. 2nd row will go to Glos in the lineouts and the back row will just be edged to Glos at the breakdown but, in Smith, Sarries will gain points from his leadership. Sarries have the in form 10 with Carter currently placed at 12 and I believe he has lined up for Glos there quite a bit too. Centres go to Sarries as well with the back 3's even. Glos edge the bench too. No fatigue issues here in my opinion with everyone up for the big game and I think that it will come down to the cool heads in the pack and can see Sarries edging it.

Starting drinking for Croatia in 6 hours

Have a great one on tour prop

have a bad tour after that prediction Prop

What I like about props 'tour' is that it is in fact just a boys holiday as they aren't even playing any matches!!!

Done a few of them myself. We went over to Ireland for when the England match was cancelled due to foot and mouth. We had arranged a fixture with a local team also

When we got back we said we would return for the rearranged one. In the end we went to prague instead. To this day none of our partners know we did not go back to Ireland. Its known as the Secret tour. my mrs would have been fine with it but some of the others would never been allowed away.

We all had to take our rugby kit with us and some even dragged their kit through the mud to fake playing when their wives did their kit.

Bizarre

My clubs tour was cancelled this year , i was guttered. Tour is the highlight of my rugby calendar year.

Saracens 23 - 26 Gloucester

Front rows are just to Saracens with a better LH and HK but Mas ahead of JDP. Prefer the Gloucester locks ahead of Saracens. Back row is Gloucester's with a stronger unit. Pack marginally to Gloucester. Half backs are fairly even with a marginal advantage to Gloucester. Matt's are the two best in there position in the world but form is questionable I still prefer them to Houghard and Lambie when it comes to controlling a Heiniken Cup final. Centres pretty even. Farrell's ability to kick away good ball is a problem he has to address but prefer JD to JDJ and this counter's the balance. Back 3 probably just goes to Saracens.

Overall it's tough. I feel Gloucester have more across the board and have more big game players and players who will make the difference.

Saracens 20-26 Gloucester
- Pack is edged by Glos. Front row is quite even but 2nd rows go to Glos. Back row is Glos. Smith and Zanni for me not in same class as Burger, who despite lacking form, is WC and Alberts. Half backs is a tough one. Form for Sarries, class to Glos. But in a big game, Carter will shine. Not fan of Farrell at 12 but JD is a quality 13. Glos combo is good and Barnes creativity will be useful. Bit of inexperience in Glos back 3 for a final but plenty of spark. Sarries is solid back 3 with Ioane the standout. Overall, Glos will be out for revenge and think they have a stronger unit out there to win.

Yeah there's only 10 of us going because another 'rival' tour was done as some oldies wanted to go to Benidorm for the 3rd year in a row!! I'll put on here that from 4pm i'm not active till Monday evening oh and my sis just got engaged and I'm best man!!

congrats mate!
Never been to Benidorm but looks like a dump! maybe thats just cos of the TV show though?!
Ibiza all the way for me!

Yeah Benidorm's good for a rugby tour....cheap and s*%t but.......I hate those places hence why I prefer somewhere where I can at least get 20mins of 'culture' by the walk from hotel to beach!

Sarries 27-25 Gloucester
Front row advantage go to Sarries thanks to a big advantage for BDP over Gray. Think the second row combination for Gloucester offers quite a bit more while I just about prefer their back row which means overall I think Gloucester are slightly better in the forwards.

Prefer Gloucester half backs but only by a little bit atm, hardly anything in the centres, like all players. Back threes I would give to Saracens...strong defensively and more consistent I feel. I think on the bench Saracens have a lot of huge players and given they are coming in on a high I think Saracens will edge it.

Saracens 25-23 Gloucester Rugby

Sarries can edge the scrum battle but Glaws can get control of the lineout. No advantage in the front 5 around the park. Gloucester with the stronger backrow selection but Burger has to be marked down for lack of form. Glaws with the stronger halfbacks quality wise but form sees Sarries edge the battle here. Cracking midfield battle with Glaws edging but Sarries edge the back 3 with the Glaws wings struggling for form.

Cracking battle here with the pack battle even overall but more form in the backs and coming off the back of a massive win Sarries just shade this.

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Im on lectures again tomorrow
So if anyone is around at 12 to knock up results would be greatly appreciated.

Gloucester 28-24 Saracens

Again can't imagine too many scrums but Sarries get a little edge but nothing drastic. See Gloucester getting equal control over line out with not real operator for Sarries. Think the Gloucester engine room have a little more too with Gray playing well but the Sarries pair out of form.

Backrows are interesting with much better quality on show for Gloucester, although Alberts is having a poor season Burger holds rating as WC and Bonnaire solid also. Wood has little form and tough to rate and similar with Smith who's not been great for 2 years. Gloucester have overall pack control.

I've been a detracter of Genia but he's been excellent of late and gives the Gloucester halfbacks an edge. The Sarries pair have some spark with Hougaard but Carter is WC and holds this again.

Unsure of Farrell at 12 outside Lambie and can see a lot of kicked ball although Davies has stepped up and looked very good lately. Barnes is really off colour but brings more than Farrell, think the centres are pretty even although I just think Farrell hinders Sarries a little.

Great back 3 contest, as a unit prefer the Sarries outfit as they're a little more sound defensively. Dagg brings solidity for Gloucester at FB though.

Think Sarries have the little edge on the bench. Both teams have refreshed well from gruelling semi last week.

Gloucester have too much I feel, especially in the pack. Sarries line out could be an issue and I think Gloucester will get a good back 5 edge.

Great game from 2 quality sides.

Gloucester 27 - 25 Saracens
I gave Saracens the win in normal time last week, but Mat has put out a stronger team this week and it's all about the two contrasting styles that both will look to play.

Gloucester more about the power and then getting it out to some really exciting runners, whilst Sarries far more structured both offensively and defensively.

With the conditions I am more drawn to the way Mat's side can play, especially as they pretty much cancel the dominance that Sarries could expect at scrum time - wet weather, or muddy surface and its a game changer, running rugby conditions you usually have 6-8 scrums in an entire game.

Question for me was whether form comes into it - personally don't have an issue with May or Sharples form, a lot is down to how Gloucester were unable to get the ball to them in real life - Genia has been very good last few weeks and Carter is showing in the Chiefs game that he's world class.

The Burger injury has more to it and he wont be as highly rated, but for Pete Wood has been out for months and I think this weakens his backrow more so.

GLoucester are going to score more tries without doubt, as they have more players I'd consider game changers - Sarries wont miss penalties and will probably get a few more, but would say that is evened out somewhat with Carter being Mat's ten, so if he gets a kick then he wont miss.

For me the extra bit of attacking flair and ability to cross the white wash sways it for me, especially in attacking conditions and at Twickenham where the pitch is wider and should allow guys like Dagg, May and Sharples to shine.

Saracens 25 - 28 Gloucester

Very tight battle in the forwards, front row goes to Saracens, powerful unit on show, think Gloucester are stronger in the rest of the pack though. Plenty of powerful carriers that will get them over the gain line and set out a solid platform. Plenty of form in the Sarries backline but I think Gloucester have the extra world class players that will step it up a notch to claim the victory.

Just luke and driver to predict.

Saracens 25 Gloucester 23

Sarries have more nouse and know how to win when the time comes against quality opposition . On phone sorry for lack of detail

Saracens 24 - 26 Gloucester

Advantage Sarries up front but not by a great deal. Mas could get on top of Corbs which could even things out.  Grey the standout in the second row, both with some form issues. Just edge to Gloucester in the back row, but again, some form issues for both sides. In the HC final I side with Gloucester in the HB's, but not a lot in it. Really tight centre battle that would be really interesting. Similar story in the back threes. Both sides have real impact off the bench. 

Gloucester have that  bit more for me. Never a lot in it so will be tight right till the last minute. 

RESULT

Saracens 29 Gloucester 32

Congratulations to Mat on retaining the trophy.

Just to illustrate how tight it was again, had luke predicted the same score the other way, it would have been 30-30 and we'd have been going to extra time again.

I can see a lot of games between a lot of teams being this tight next season.

Just looked through people predos. Really, really tight. Great game.

Congrats Matt

Congrats Matt