Could the Amlin final be a higher standard than the Heineken cup final?

As a contemporary, neutral , noble spectator, it seems almost acrimonious to suggest such a feat however I think his might be the case. Looking at the final 8 teams in both cups, the final of the amlin from my birds eye view will be leinster v Toulouse. Heineken cup will be clermont v Toulon/Le.

On paper, you could be right! But, in reality if those two Amlin teams were poor this year (in terms of not making the HC cut) then technically no, a final between them would not be of a higher standard as they're below par this year. I know what you're saying though! In terms of European pedigree it could be a big AC final!

I disagree Griff, Leinster were poor because of a huge injury list, in recent weeks they have started to come good again and I predict they will only get stronger!

hugo

I think youve selected the strongest final there though, and any final Toulon are in will not be high quality free flowing rugby!!

It would be a good game. They should perhaps drop this idea of the last 3 of the Heineken Cup making it into the Amlin. Every time that happens the seasoned H-cup teams ruin all the Amlin cup teams. Glaws and Wasps can put up a good fight but I don't think they'll be good enough to beat Leinster, Toulouse, (who was the other?). Instead could they introduce a third place play-off for the H-cup?

thebluesmancometh wrote:I disagree Griff, Leinster were poor because of a huge injury list, in recent weeks they have started to come good again and I predict they will only get stronger!

hugo

I think youve selected the strongest final there though, and any final Toulon are in will not be high quality free flowing rugby!!

The last final Toulon were involved in sure as hell wasn't free-flowing rugby.

Rewarding sides for failing in the Heineken by being parachuted into the quarters of the Amlin has never seemed right to me. It makes a bit of a mockery of the Amlin pool stages, especially with how the semi draws are worked out.

I know it add a bit of status to the Amlin but, for me, they should be separate competitions and not a last-chance saloon to save a European season for sides that weren't good enough to qualify for the Heineken quarters.

I'm not sure which will be of a higher standard, but I'd prefer an 'Amlin' side to win it rather than a 'failed Heineken' outfit.

It was last year, wasn't it?

thebluesmancometh wrote:I disagree Griff, Leinster were poor because of a huge injury list, in recent weeks they have started to come good again and I predict they will only get stronger!

hugo

I think youve selected the strongest final there though, and any final Toulon are in will not be high quality free flowing rugby!!

You can't say that a final contested between 2 knocked out teams will be better than the main event because teams might get better. Are you going to argue that it is better because Wasps might regain their 2005 form (or whenever it was)?! Toulouse have been a bit flaky for the past few seasons. Definitely not up to their usual standard. [i]

Biarritz beat Toulon in last years ACC. The Basque regions team had been in the Heineken Cup. I can't remember if Toulon were.

Toulon were in the Amlin from the start last season.

Griff

I'm not talking on a hunch that Leinster will get better!!

I'm talking results and injuries, Exeter had a belter at the RDS against a weakened Leinster, as did a few Rabo teams who beat them (Scarlets thrashed them remember) Leinster injury list hampered them for the first few months of the season, and against CA they were still missing a number of key players, IMHO we are only just seeing the real Leinster side this year now, as they have only just returned to a full squad, look at the Exeter game last weekend!!!

I'm not saying the Amlin final would be better, but if I had the choice to watch just one of the above 2 matches the Amlin would be my choice!

Tolouse have been patchy all year, but they are capable of a great display.

I'm getting concerned about this becoming a devalued Heineken Cup

It'll only be called devalued once a Welsh team wins it Cyril

thebluesmancometh wrote:It'll only be called devalued once a Welsh team wins it Cyril

Well, that's certainly put my mind at rest

thebluesmancometh wrote:Griff

I'm not talking on a hunch that Leinster will get better!!

I'm talking results and injuries, Exeter had a belter at the RDS against a weakened Leinster, as did a few Rabo teams who beat them (Scarlets thrashed them remember) Leinster injury list hampered them for the first few months of the season, and against CA they were still missing a number of key players, IMHO we are only just seeing the real Leinster side this year now, as they have only just returned to a full squad, look at the Exeter game last weekend!!!

I'm not saying the Amlin final would be better, but if I had the choice to watch just one of the above 2 matches the Amlin would be my choice!

Tolouse have been patchy all year, but they are capable of a great display.

Exeter might have had a belter at RDS but they were injury depleted too, Scarlets have also been unfortunate with injuries and CA have missed a few over the course of the pool games (but it's difficult to tell with the depth of their squad). The "real" Leinster with a full squad (but still with some bench omissions) beat a "hugely" depleted Exeter team last weekend by only 9 points.

How often can any team put out a full team over a season? The "real" team is defined by the squad, isn't it?

Dub

Firstly the dominance shown in that game doesn't matter because Leinster were after tries. Turning down regular point shots and allowing Exeter to attack more freely in the hope of returning ball quicker.

My point is that Leinster IMHO are a better team than most of the qualified, and now they have started to show signs of being the great team they have consistently been for the last 3/ years they are better than when they were conceding 30 odd points week in week out at the start of the season!

Leinster were the hardest hit by injuries than any other HC team by a country mile and it showed, thats all I'm saying.

Also I beleive the Amlin game proposed would be a better game to watch as a neutral than the proposed HC final.

I would say that Leinster being that badly affected by their injury list at least suggests that they are entering a transitional period. The likes of BOD don't have long left in their careers, and their replacements don't appear to be fully ready to step into their shoes. I've also heard Irish fans complain before about the weakness of the academy system (though that might have been mainly aimed at Munster).

As for whether the Amlin is damaged by having HEC refugees in the ADs, I would say not. In each of the years it's been running, I believe that at least one "Amlin" team has made the final, and at least one has won it (I was there). I think it improves the quality and prestige of the title immeasurably.

I'm not sure where this massive Leinster injury list myth has come from? In Exeter's two games against them, the major difference was Rob Kearney, replaced by Madigan at the RDS, back for Sandy Park. Fitzgerald was back for SP, but McFadden had better form at the RDS regardless of whether Fitz was available or not. The pack was pretty much identical. In fact, arguably the Chiefs played Leinster twice with a longer injury list - just saying, not commenting on results nor on strength of teams, but let's stop the Leinster-destroyed-by-injury guff, yeah?

thebluesmancometh wrote:Dub

Firstly the dominance shown in that game doesn't matter because Leinster were after tries. Turning down regular point shots and allowing Exeter to attack more freely in the hope of returning ball quicker.

My point is that Leinster IMHO are a better team than most of the qualified, and now they have started to show signs of being the great team they have consistently been for the last 3/ years they are better than when they were conceding 30 odd points week in week out at the start of the season!

Leinster were the hardest hit by injuries than any other HC team by a country mile and it showed, thats all I'm saying.
Also I beleive the Amlin game proposed would be a better game to watch as a neutral than the proposed HC final.

Bollix. Just looking at leinster v exeter as an example. Round 1, Leinster XV - 5 missing, Exeter 3 missing, Round 6, leinster 0 missing, exeter 5 missing - 5 v 8. OK, 1st teamers is debatable, bench isn't included, but to claim the country mile argument is ridiculous. How many have Ulster missed? Glasgow ran out of props. It may be (but i doubt it) that Leinster suffered more injuries than others, but it certainly wasn't by a country mile, and with the depth of their squad, they would be better placed than others (apart from some french teams) to cover for those injuries.

btw Exeter turned down regular points shots too, probably more than Leinster, but yes, it was an unusual game.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Dub

Firstly the dominance shown in that game doesn't matter because Leinster were after tries. Turning down regular point shots and allowing Exeter to attack more freely in the hope of returning ball quicker.

My point is that Leinster IMHO are a better team than most of the qualified, and now they have started to show signs of being the great team they have consistently been for the last 3/ years they are better than when they were conceding 30 odd points week in week out at the start of the season!

Leinster were the hardest hit by injuries than any other HC team by a country mile and it showed, thats all I'm saying.
Also I beleive the Amlin game proposed would be a better game to watch as a neutral than the proposed HC final.

Bollix. Just looking at leinster v exeter as an example. Round 1, Leinster XV - 5 missing, Exeter 3 missing, Round 6, leinster 0 missing, exeter 5 missing - 5 v 8. OK, 1st teamers is debatable, bench isn't included, but to claim the country mile argument is ridiculous. How many have Ulster missed? Glasgow ran out of props. It may be (but i doubt it) that Leinster suffered more injuries than others, but it certainly wasn't by a country mile, and with the depth of their squad, they would be better placed than others (apart from some french teams) to cover for those injuries.

btw Exeter turned down regular points shots too, probably more than Leinster, but yes, it was an unusual game.

I agree, some people on here seem to making the excuse that leinster were the only team to have injuries. All teams had them.

nathan wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Dub

Firstly the dominance shown in that game doesn't matter because Leinster were after tries. Turning down regular point shots and allowing Exeter to attack more freely in the hope of returning ball quicker.

My point is that Leinster IMHO are a better team than most of the qualified, and now they have started to show signs of being the great team they have consistently been for the last 3/ years they are better than when they were conceding 30 odd points week in week out at the start of the season!

Leinster were the hardest hit by injuries than any other HC team by a country mile and it showed, thats all I'm saying.
Also I beleive the Amlin game proposed would be a better game to watch as a neutral than the proposed HC final.

Bollix. Just looking at leinster v exeter as an example. Round 1, Leinster XV - 5 missing, Exeter 3 missing, Round 6, leinster 0 missing, exeter 5 missing - 5 v 8. OK, 1st teamers is debatable, bench isn't included, but to claim the country mile argument is ridiculous. How many have Ulster missed? Glasgow ran out of props. It may be (but i doubt it) that Leinster suffered more injuries than others, but it certainly wasn't by a country mile, and with the depth of their squad, they would be better placed than others (apart from some french teams) to cover for those injuries.

btw Exeter turned down regular points shots too, probably more than Leinster, but yes, it was an unusual game.

I agree, some people on here seem to making the excuse that leinster were the only team to have injuries. All teams had them.

Nobody has had a more disrupted season though. Our first team has played together like what? 2-3 times. We have had a different 15 every week since the start of the season. We will probably never have an injury list like it again. At one stage we had to convert an academy LH to hooker and he ended up making his first cap for us.

Oh come on...

Leinster early season had the likes of Auva, Browne, Ryan, in the pack, an Academy hooker, Boss and Madigan at half backs, Reid and Macken centres and the household names of Carr and Conway on the wings, not to mention 5 boys still in the Leinster academy on the bench, I make that 12 Academy boys on the pitch!

They got a few players back here and there but Leinster have managed a matchday squad resembling 80% of the first team about 5 times this season!!

They will get better as the season goes on, who wants to bet against them winning the Rabo and Amlin?!

Open your either eye and see how many other teams have different XV's each week.

Exeter conceded 7 tries in the last 20 minutes of the 2 matches against Clermont, the first time with a prop at flanker, centre at scrummie, flanker at centre. and the second time with a debutant hooker at flanker, and two specialist flyhalves on the pitch, with players missing before kickoff. Last week was the first time in HC that Exe were able to name 4 specialist back-rows in the XXIII. I'm sure that's not unique, all teams usually have to shuffle.

There's little doubt in my mind that the Irish player management system is the best in the Europe, but when it breaks down, it ain't the end of the world - it just means that an advantage over others is lost.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:Open your either eye and see how many other teams have different XV's each week.

Exeter conceded 7 tries in the last 20 minutes of the 2 matches against Clermont, the first time with a prop at flanker, centre at scrummie, flanker at centre. and the second time with a debutant hooker at flanker, and two specialist flyhalves on the pitch, with players missing before kickoff. Last week was the first time in HC that Exe were able to name 4 specialist back-rows in the XXIII. I'm sure that's not unique, all teams usually have to shuffle.

There's little doubt in my mind that the Irish player management system is the best in the Europe, but when it breaks down, it ain't the end of the world - it just means that an advantage over others is lost.

Im not saying Exeter didn't have injuries. Im just saying what Leinster had. Exeter performed well in both games.

Why do you claim I have one eye? I am totally neutral!!

I have just never seen a team reduced to 12 academy players playing professional rugby before!! And Leinster have done nothing but get stronger throughout.

Do you think Leinster won't win the Amlin and Rabo?

Bluesman,
I apologise for one-eyed accusation.

Facetious, I know, but most LV cup games will include many academy players.

I think Leinster are favourites to win Rabo, but have serious doubts about Amlin.

Leinsterfan

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:I'm not sure where this massive Leinster injury list myth has come from? In Exeter's two games against them, the major difference was Rob Kearney, replaced by Madigan at the RDS, back for Sandy Park. Fitzgerald was back for SP, but McFadden had better form at the RDS regardless of whether Fitz was available or not. The pack was pretty much identical. In fact, arguably the Chiefs played Leinster twice with a longer injury list - just saying, not commenting on results nor on strength of teams, but let's stop the Leinster-destroyed-by-injury guff, yeah?

You must have missed/ignored this bit on the match thread.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Looks weak

Hasn't looked that weak since last season.

If you guys win this Leinster will have absolutely no excuses at all.

Looks pretty much like the team that we played at the RDS, with Kearney instead of Madigan and Fitzgerald in place of McFadden?

As well as Kearney and Fitz we were missing D'arcy & Sean O'Brien. That's the last 2 European Players of the season.

3 of them are Lions and the one that isn't is....well Sean O'Brien.

Edit: And that's just the team. Bench was not great either. We had so few fit outside backs there was only one on the bench. And we never used him. Guys like Dave Kearney and Eoin O'Malley who are playing in the A game in Leeds tomorrow would have been useful too.

The worst one was Clermont away.

15: Ian Madigan
14: Fergus McFadden
13: Gordon D'Arcy
12: Andrew Goodman
11: Isa Nacewa
10: Jonathan Sexton
9: Isaac Boss (Eoin Reddan, 65)

We had Carr & Conway unused on the bench

O'Driscoll
Fitzgerald
R Kearney
D Kearney
O'Malley

Missing

And Clermont had everybody fit.

Having said all that. I agree that all teams had injuries, no point in whinging (despite the fact that I have just done so )

Exeter had a fair few injuries in their team for that game last week, AND they didn't complain. AND they gave us a serious game.

Anyway back to the whinging. We just never got a run of games with our team due to IRFU player regs (Price of donating so many to Irish team) and aforementioned injury.

Thems the breaks. We were very lucky last year with injury and we had a great season. Happy to take a hit this year after the run we had.

On the question of a better quality in the Amlin final, I disagree. If they were that good they would be IN the HC not the Amlin. By definition teams that qualified for the HC are better because they have qualified.

Tolouse aren't the team they once were. When will they realise they need a decent fly half?

" I have just never seen a team reduced to 12 academy players playing professional rugby before!! And Leinster have done nothing but get stronger" throughout.

Was that in the HC or the Rabo? Leinster, or anyone else for that matter, can only field players in Euro competitions from their nominated 35. In the Rabo they can field a host of Academy players if they want to. The same goes for many Rabo teams - a HC team, and a Rabo team.

I've not been following Leinster closely, but just for context, last season the full Quins 1st XV took the field precisely once (in the AP Final), and at one point they were playing with a back row of 2 Academy lads and Robshaw out of position at 8. IIRC, at one point we had 12 players injured out of a squad of 38, most of them backrowers. Still kept winning.

The ability to cope with injuries is the measure of a great squad. One consequence of last year is that we now have very little to choose between our first and second choice players in 11-12 positions (more work to be done at TH, Lock, FB and FH - though Botica is way closer to Evans than I ever expected us to get).

Quins were playing Tigers though, not Clermont.

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:" I have just never seen a team reduced to 12 academy players playing professional rugby before!! And Leinster have done nothing but get stronger" throughout.

Was that in the HC or the Rabo? Leinster, or anyone else for that matter, can only field players in Euro competitions from their nominated 35. In the Rabo they can field a host of Academy players if they want to. The same goes for many Rabo teams - a HC team, and a Rabo team.

38 man Squad for the HC. Inc 10 front row. Every team in Europe has the same 38. I think there are 2 Academy players named in ours. Murphy and Moore. So it was the Rabo where we had all the Academy lads in.

Leinster are forced to play all the academy guys as the 12 or so players we lose to the Ireland squad are controlled by player welfare rules of the IRFU and have limited gametime. That's what happens when you have a league with 4 national teams picked out of 12 club teams.

The English have just 1 national team to get out of 12 club teams. The French 1 from 14.

There are swings and roundabouts. Leicester v Exeter for example, if it was during the 6n. Exeter would have an advantage as Leicester would lose more players. Leinster v Treviso. Both would lose a sh1tload. Advantage Leinster (Compared to Leicester)

Balanced out by the number of players Leicester would actually lose (Dunno how many) compared to Leinster's 12.

All teams in Europe are the same. Not just Rabo teams. Most have bigger squads. (We have 40 + academy. Some teams have more, I doubt many have less)

All teams in Europe rotate their squads. The French perhaps the most. They have the biggest squads, the biggest budgets and the most games.

I suppose with only 2 Rabo teams in the HC knockouts. 3 English and 3 French, people will say "the English and the French are in there because their teams are battle hardened because their leagues are tough, not like the Rabo teams".

Last year it was "The Rabo teams have all the advantages because they don't have relegation and can rest their players, while the poor old English and French are all knackered because their leagues are so tough"

Pointless question, pointless thread.

There's always big casualties in the hc opening rounds, and this year the groups werebeven more skewed than usual.
Leinster had a bad year. The league system and enforced player rotation ( which Eps players have too btw) has suited them well in the past, just this year they simply weren't good enough.
Nor were Toulouse, apparently winning a group with a top 3 English side the top Welsh side and the top Italian side is not easy. Indeed nor was it for tigers who had to face the 3rd best French side . This year they just got it right, previous yeas they've started sluggish and blown points at home in Europe and the league before getting stronger too late.
Boohoo Leinster, welcome to the world the rest of us inhabit where qualification isn't a divine right. At least you know connacht will guarantee you entry to next years hc and that the erc rankings system will keep you a top seed.

Can we give the Leinster hype a rest please?

They're out of the HC now either way, they have the Amlin to play for. They won't manage a fourth HC title this season nore will they manage three in three seasons or what ever they were going for.

Other teams are still in the Heiny though so to already be writing them off as over and done with now that one Irish team are out is a bit OTT.

Any one thought that maybe Leinster won't even make the Amlin final as well now? They only just scraped past Exeter and Wasps can be deadly on their day.

I know a lot of the hype is from gormless Sky pundits, but it's getting a bit tired now.

Nah I think Ulster V Clermont will be a better final than Leinster V Toulouse ......

It might be better than last years final. I'm not a fan of massively one sided games. I find them a bit boring.

dont even think Toulouse will go past the QF : Noves already implied that they will use this game to try some have players that dont get much gametime otherwise. I still reckon Biarritz or Stade Français could make the final as they have little chance to qualify for the HC directly.

whocares wrote:dont even think Toulouse will go past the QF : Noves already implied that they will use this game to try some have players that dont get much gametime otherwise. I still reckon Biarritz or Stade Français could make the final as they have little chance to qualify for the HC directly.

They're both former Amlin finalists, and Biarritz definitely wanted the 2012 trophy more than Toulon, so you could be right. But I fancy Wasps to be in the mix if they can get past their QF

Poorfour wrote:I've not been following Leinster closely, but just for context, last season the full Quins 1st XV took the field precisely once (in the AP Final), and at one point they were playing with a back row of 2 Academy lads and Robshaw out of position at 8. IIRC, at one point we had 12 players injured out of a squad of 38, most of them backrowers. Still kept winning.

The ability to cope with injuries is the measure of a great squad. One consequence of last year is that we now have very little to choose between our first and second choice players in 11-12 positions (more work to be done at TH, Lock, FB and FH - though Botica is way closer to Evans than I ever expected us to get).

Bear in mind you lost the least amount of player to the RWC so you were taking on sides more depleted than yourselves.

Every side gets injuries. Some clubs just talk about them more than others.

yappysnap wrote:Can we give the Leinster hype a rest please?

They're out of the HC now either way, they have the Amlin to play for. They won't manage a fourth HC title this season nore will they manage three in three seasons or what ever they were going for.

Other teams are still in the Heiny though so to already be writing them off as over and done with now that one Irish team are out is a bit OTT.

Any one thought that maybe Leinster won't even make the Amlin final as well now? They only just scraped past Exeter and Wasps can be deadly on their day.
I know a lot of the hype is from gormless Sky pundits, but it's getting a bit tired now.

Wasps can beat anyone on their day.

I can't see my lot winning the Amlin. Wasps are still growing as a team and give away too many penalties at the breakdown.

There's a lot of Wasps fans who seriously do not like teams parachuting into the Amlin from the HC, with us having scrapped through one of the tougher pools. But it was always tough on four HC pool runners up not going any further in Europe before things changed.

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:Rewarding sides for failing in the Heineken by being parachuted into the quarters of the Amlin has never seemed right to me. It makes a bit of a mockery of the Amlin pool stages, especially with how the semi draws are worked out.

I know it add a bit of status to the Amlin but, for me, they should be separate competitions and not a last-chance saloon to save a European season for sides that weren't good enough to qualify for the Heineken quarters.

I'm not sure which will be of a higher standard, but I'd prefer an 'Amlin' side to win it rather than a 'failed Heineken' outfit.

ERC just copied the idea from UEFA, as used to parachute teams into the Europa league from the Champions league.

Its all about money. The Amlin group stages suffer from some very one sided games and pitiful crowds due to having some mickey mouse teams in it to make up the numbers. By dropping 3 big teams into the quarters, they hope to improve the quality of the KO stages and make it more attractive to TV and Media in General.

However, the problem is that the ERC competitions doesn't have the scale or scope of the UEFA football competitions, so the numbers involved are not really fair.

The Europa League is made up of 24 Europa qualifiers and 8 Champions league rejects (only 25% of a large no of teams)
The Amlin is made up of 5 Amlin qualifiers and 3 HC rejects (37.5% of a small no of teams)

I am not a big fan of 3 sides parachuting down.

Have never been since in 2009/10 we had a Amlin Pool stronger than Quins' HC pool this season. We had Toulon and Castres in our Amlin pool.

Despite winning 5 out of 6 matches in probably the toughest Amlin pool ever we did not qualify because of the drop down system eradicating best runners up spot - 0 ERC ranking points that season. How is that right? That has royally messed up our ERC ranking till it drops off.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%9310_Amlin_Challenge_Cup_pool_stage



You can get more European ranking points for winning the Amlin than you can for a HC quarter final.

Biarritz exploited this last season.

This has been a big problem in the ERC rankings. Cardiff also used this trick when they won the Amlin.

Both Biarritz and Cardiff have artificially high ERC rankings because of this drop down system.

Why should sides who failed in the HC get a second chance?

if ERC reduces the number of teams in the HC to 4 groups with all runner ups to qualify for the QF, this would be sorted. Equally we would have some better teams in the AC.

whocares wrote:if ERC reduces the number of teams in the HC to 4 groups with all runner ups to qualify for the QF, this would be sorted. Equally we would have some better teams in the AC.

How many teams in each group? 4? Surely that would hurt the development of the smaller clubs in the Amlin?

This drop down also makes it even more difficult for some of the lesser sides in the Amlin to make a breakthrough.

To add insult to injury the semi finals in the Amlin are random! Potentially Leinster or Toulouse could get a home semi final.

I am personnaly against all bottom french teams to qualify de facto for the AC (as they only use it to rotate and test players who hardly play in the T14). so happy to reduce the overall number of teams by scrapping some of the french (4 at least) and maybe English ones. this would still leave room for teams from Bucarest or Spain.

beshocked wrote:

whocares wrote:if ERC reduces the number of teams in the HC to 4 groups with all runner ups to qualify for the QF, this would be sorted. Equally we would have some better teams in the AC.

How many teams in each group? 4? Surely that would hurt the development of the smaller clubs in the Amlin?

This drop down also makes it even more difficult for some of the lesser sides in the Amlin to make a breakthrough.

To add insult to injury the semi finals in the Amlin are random! Potentially Leinster or Toulouse could get a home semi final.

So wheres the glory in winning the patronising cup for sh1t teams?
Should we just have a special cup for dragons connacht and the Liechtenstein second division women's 15 to make it easier for them?
It's a bit galling to support a hc team that busted a gut to qualify on merit , pulls a group with the best teams from 3 countries, misses out on the group stages on trise scored because they didn't have Edinburgh in their pool and then see a team who finished woefully low in their domestic league have to battle the 14 placed French teams second 15 and some Romanians to get into a cup quarter final.

The amlin is a joke currently. I believe it's only lw of yhe Englishclubs who lost two games and noneed were beaten by non English or French clubs. This is why the hc shake up proposals want stronger teams from the Rabo nation's in thrre to beef up the competition and make it mean something
The big name teams dropping in is one of the few things that adds some glamour to it, not to mention tv crowds and sponsors

Hopefully it will be resolved in the h-cup talks.

I don't mind teams dropping down as am used to it from Champions League, its the lopsided numbers that annoy me, some runners up are in H-cup q finals, some in almin, and some are out of Europe. Puts to much luck into the draw.

(mind you it wa though whoever got Zebre would have the best runners up spot but this wasn't the case)

Leinster are hitting form again, and are one of the best teams in Europe, their presence really bring up the Almin, however the 8 in the almin on average, would be lower than the H-cup last 8. Toulouse have been a bit like Munster, big team, just not at where they were a few years ago, but still dangerous.

Ranking points also need redone, instead of last 4 years, I think use the rugby ranking on Eurotable, but increase it to last 60 games.

Hopefully the whole ranking is redone with the tournament.

I know this isn't the place for it, but the Rabo Unions idea of 32 teams does have merit, 8 groups of 4, top 2 in each pool play knock out for cup, bottom 2 in each pool play for Shield, removes the lopsidedness, and less chance of the 2 extremes of groups of death and groups of life, should overall be more even, also gives more teams a chance of getting into the main event.

beshocked wrote:

whocares wrote:if ERC reduces the number of teams in the HC to 4 groups with all runner ups to qualify for the QF, this would be sorted. Equally we would have some better teams in the AC.

How many teams in each group? 4? Surely that would hurt the development of the smaller clubs in the Amlin?

This drop down also makes it even more difficult for some of the lesser sides in the Amlin to make a breakthrough.

To add insult to injury the semi finals in the Amlin are random! Potentially Leinster or Toulouse could get a home semi final.

It would but not everyone cares about that unfortunately for them.
Are they developing? Look at some of the group results, 70 and 80 point beatings in front of crowds smaller than non-league football.

That's why, The English and French clubs proposed a 3rd tier competition for them, with the Amlin being improved with more Rabo teams.
The problem with that idea is the 3rd tier competition would be as attractive to Sponsors and Broadcasters as a fart in a spacesuit and probably just wither and die.