Wales look at Pretorious, Paterson and Dirksen for future call-ups

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2012/05/14/wales-target-southern-hemisphere-blues-duo-and-ospreys-star-hanno-dirksen-for-future-selection-91466-30967932/

ROB HOWLEY has revealed three foreign-born regional stars are on Wales' selection radar.

Howley admitted he has checked up on the eligibility of Ospreys winger Hanno Dirksen and Blues forwards Andries Pretorius and Michael Paterson ahead of naming the summer training squad for the Test series in Australia.

Those checks revealed South Africans Dirksen and Pretorius and New Zealander Paterson weren’t available for the tour of Australia as they still have time to serve before qualifying for Wales on the three-year residency rule.

But back rower Pretorius, who has just returned from a six-month knee injury lay-off, could be big candidate for Wales honours next season as he becomes eligible later this summer.

Blues Player of the Year Paterson has another 12 months to run before qualifying in the summer of 2013, while Dirksen won’t be eligible until January 2014.

“We checked up on the qualification of Michael Paterson and Andries Pretorius as well as Hanno Dirksen,” he said.

“They are not qualified for this tour.”


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Say what you like about eligibility rules, but these 3 would certainly add depth to the welsh squad.

Pretorious is likely to play 8 next season and be eligible for Wales (and has previously stated he wants to play for Wales) - he could prove to be the long term backup to Faletau at 6.

Paterson would provide further depth to the backrow, and could really challenge Lydiate if he can take his regional performances to the international level.

Dirksen is not really a surprise - Wales are a bit short on wings after S.Williams retirement and nobody is really pushing North or even the newby Cuthbert for a place. Pity we will have to wait until 2014 to see if Dirksen can step up to international rugby.

On the other hand, Peter Thomas is probably furious.

i know his incredibly early in his ospreys carrer but stefan watermeyer was also brought in in the view he could later be a welsh international

the idea however of four foreing players playing for wales doesnt sit right in me to be honest. I feel it undermines our own acadamies in thier ability to create international players. If such a tiny country such as wales really wants to be a long term big player in international rugby (i.e post gatland) we shouldnt be seeking foreign imports to improve our national side. and with the greatest respect to Paterson and watermeyer, but often or not such imports came because they could not make a dent on the international scene in their own countries. (Dirksen and pretorious situation is a bit diffrent)

Wasnt Watermeyer playing in loftus just last year

I think Pretorious and Dirksen are young enough that if they choose Wales then its probably fair enough.

Paterson and Watermeyer are a bit older, which is a bit more iffy. Still Paterson is a very good player...I guess it depend on how good the other options are, the best available should play for Wales if they hold the determination to do so (im pretty sure Paterson, Pretorious and Dirksen have all stated they would like to play for Wales)

In my view this is becoming a little ludicrous now, what is SARU doing to prevent this type of thing happening.

Soon we will face most NH teams with players born, bred and developed over here in SA.

SARU should at least make a stink about it, How many does england have now?

Pretty soon we will have more south africans playing at international level for other nations than at home.

I am sorry but this doesn't sit well with me.

I have no problems with these guys forging careers for themselves elswhere, it is the nature of the beast, if you have more guys than you can accommodate in your professional setup, then logically they will go elswhere, but to start playing against them at international level simply just takes the out of a flawed system.

I dont think Wales needs any of those players to qualify. We have better players who aren't Kiwis or South Africans.

Watermeyer has left the O's so he's not even worth considering in respect to this issue.

SARU should just relax their U20 policy and look to play more matches and cap more players.. currently they only have the JRWC right... compared to the U20 6N right?

They have no B senior side so the U20 will be the next side and therefore once you play for SA U20 you can't play for anyone else.

This residency rule needs changing! 3 years is not long enough to represent another country.

I think the England & wales cricket board were have got things better than the IRB with players moving to England or wales before the age of 18 have 4 years to qualify and those that move after the age 18 have 7 years before qualification.

I don't blame coach picking players by the residency rule because their job is to win and to do everything in the rules you can.

Biltongbek you are right SARU should complain to the IRB to get the residency rule changed.

Fa0019 That only works if the team you are playing also has their under 20 side as their A side and this currently under review from the IRB i think, due to the Shingler incident at the begging of the six nations

ieuan wrote:I think the England & wales cricket board were have got things better than the IRB with players moving to England or wales before the age of 18 have 4 years to qualify and those that move after the age 18 have 7 years before qualification.

I have to agree. 7 years is about correct for an adult. Four or five four a minor.

Modern rugby is madly hypocritical. Wales are willing to block players from changing to nations they are eligible for through birth on the back of U20s caps whilst trying to recruit 'Project players' who have no link whatsoever to their country bar residency?

I'm nit pointing fingers at the WRU specifically, we're all part of the same hypocrisy. The IRFU and SRU are doing the exact same thing (Jared Payne, Richardt Strauss and Tim Visser) and obviously the RFU have engaged in it too.

I believe the IRB must act now on residency laws. Three years is simply too lax. Finding a quality SH player who hasn't made the breakthrough to the All Blacks/Springboks and offering him a big money three year deal with the carrot of playing international rugby at the end is becoming common practice in terms of recruitment in the NH and that's bad for the game.

maestegmafia wrote:

ieuan wrote:I think the England & wales cricket board were have got things better than the IRB with players moving to England or wales before the age of 18 have 4 years to qualify and those that move after the age 18 have 7 years before qualification.

I have to agree. 7 years is about correct for an adult. Four or five four a minor.

That makes much more sense

Let's hope this finally puts an end to Walian high-horsery.

sugarNspikes wrote:Let's hope this finally puts an end to Walian high-horsery.

Sounds like you are talking about Lippezzaners doing high jump, eh?

ieuan

SA have no A side.... so I assume they have identified their U20 team as their designated A side.

If they haven't... they're insane. Wouldn't put it past them though given they're probably more concerns about the latest Mercedes they get free due to the 1 meeting a month obligations they fill.

FA, you actually think they meet the required obligation?

They probably do a five minute conference call these days, one from Mauritius, one from the seychelles, and the other from the luxury of a hotel room in dubai, where his wife is shopping.

If all the Unions in the IRB agreed not to sign any players from Tier 1 nations, the residency issues would be reduced.

fa0019 wrote:ieuan

SA have no A side.... so I assume they have identified their U20 team as their designated A side.

If they haven't... they're insane. Wouldn't put it past them though given they're probably more concerns about the latest Mercedes they get free due to the 1 meeting a month obligations they fill.

Sa have the Emerging Springboks which are effectively our SA side . For those who have not heard of them they're the blokes that drew with the Lions before the first test in 09

biltongbek wrote:

sugarNspikes wrote:Let's hope this finally puts an end to Walian high-horsery.

Sounds like you are talking about Lippezzaners doing high jump, eh?

Yeah, a bit like that, but using soapboxes for extra leverage combined with the whip-hand of sanctimonious moral outrage. I think the horse was called Hypocrisy.

To be fair, I remember Pretorius saying he wanted to play for wales a couple of years back and he had always had intentions to play after coming to Wales and how welcome he'd been since he arrived. Apparently he'd relaly taken to the welsh. Dirksen is a youngster and has come through the ospreys system for the last few years.

Those 2 are fair enough to me, their young guys being brought through the academies.

I'm not happy with the Patterson situation though. Hes a new Zealander, maybe it'll be another Paul Tito situation, where hes elligible, but he would only ever consider a call-up in a dire situation for the welsh team, Tito took up being WQ to help the Blues essentially as theyve been so good to him. Still, maybe thats a little hopeful, it'd just be another Botha/England situation for me.

I don't like the residency rules. Also I don't want to see Dirkson play for Wales (even if he was welsh). However in his defence, he will have served an extra long residency by the time he becomes welsh qualified as he was over here on a student visa, which does not count as your time serving for residency, so if he does opt for Wales at the end of his time (Jan 2014) then he has definately shown that he wants to be qualified.

I do not agree with aging players who come over when they know that they have no shot at international rugby, in the hopes of spending three seasons (Earning better money than at home) and then being able to play internationally for a season or two. I don't really see how that is much of a gain for the national side, as to be honest if they ain't good enough to be internationals in the SH, we shouldn't really want them as they ain't going to be good enough to beat the SH sides.

SS, from what I know Dirksen has lived in SA/USA and Wales, and hes only ever stated he wanted to play for Wales, he will have spent 5 years here from a young age, which in my book is fair enough. Considering his age he wont have spent much longer in either of the other countries and he'd have been very young if he did.

completely agree with your assessment regarding older players though.

Comfort wrote:To be fair, I remember Pretorius saying he wanted to play for wales a couple of years back and he had always had intentions to play after coming to Wales and how welcome he'd been since he arrived. Apparently he'd relaly taken to the welsh. Dirksen is a youngster and has come through the ospreys system for the last few years.

Those 2 are fair enough to me, their young guys being brought through the academies.

I'm not happy with the Patterson situation though. Hes a new Zealander, maybe it'll be another Paul Tito situation, where hes elligible, but he would only ever consider a call-up in a dire situation for the welsh team, Tito took up being WQ to help the Blues essentially as theyve been so good to him. Still, maybe thats a little hopeful, it'd just be another Botha/England situation for me.

Of course Pretorius said he wanted to play for Wales, there is know way he could play for SA while playing in Wales so if he wanted to play international rugby wales would be his only option.

If he was given the choice to play between Wales and SA I would hazard a guess that he would go with SA.

Players are taking advantage of residency rules in order to play international rugby, but I can understand why the lure of earning more moeny and playing international rugby is a big one. Its easy to stop the IRB just increase the residency period.

I really don't like seeing foreign players playing for Wales. Even if they're good, it doesn't feel right and I don't think it ever will. We're talking about the national side and people from other nations shouldn't be sent out to represent us, because they don't. I wish all non-Welsh players had paul Tito's attitude: that it would feel wrong to wear the jersey of any nation other than your own.

that it would feel wrong to wear the jersey of any nation other than your own..

Now that, I respect.

Comfort wrote:SS, from what I know Dirksen has lived in SA/USA and Wales, and hes only ever stated he wanted to play for Wales, he will have spent 5 years here from a young age, which in my book is fair enough. Considering his age he wont have spent much longer in either of the other countries and he'd have been very young if he did.

Comfort that was what I was trying to say, he will have served and extra long qualification time. I don't want him to play for Wales on the grounds that he has some traits about him that I just don't like, and even if he were born in Cardiff and call Dai Jones I still wouldn't want him in the national side.

SARU should at least make a stink about it, How many does england have now?

Saffas under residency? 1. Botha though he has been here a long old time so would probably qualify even under extended residency. Barritt and Stevens both have an English parent(s).

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I really don't like seeing foreign players playing for Wales. Even if they're good, it doesn't feel right and I don't think it ever will. We're talking about the national side and people from other nations shouldn't be sent out to represent us, because they don't. I wish all non-Welsh players had paul Tito's attitude: that it would feel wrong to wear the jersey of any nation other than your own.

Almost +1. Some people do end up being Welsh (as a nationality in their heart) even if they are not Welsh like Dale McIntosh for example.

I agree increase residency it is now being openly abused to get players to play for a country that isn't theirs.

Thankfully the IRFU are droping the 'Project player' idea after 2013 - never liked it

formerly known as Sam wrote:

SARU should at least make a stink about it, How many does england have now?

Saffas under residency? 1. Botha though he has been here a long old time so would probably qualify even under extended residency. Barritt and Stevens both have an English parent(s).

They're still south african developed mate, you can cut it up any way you like.

The reality is many South Africans have parentage or grand parentage that stems from the UK. Does that make it right?

Our school rugby system is one of the best in the world, our craven week and school festivals are a formidable training ground for any rugby player.

In some countries kids start plaing rugby in their teens, they don't have the back ground and opportunities our kids have here, so when they move on to play professional rugby in other countries, and then get called upfor national duty in the new "rugby adopted" country it makes it OK becuase of bloodlines or residency. Sorry don't like it.

No matter which way you cut it, they are mercenaries and will stick yu in the eyeball for 30 silver coins.

90% of rugby players leaving our shores do it for money, and if they have a carrot haning over them to possibly play for another country they take it, simply becuase they don't beleive they will get the same results here.

As much as I can honestly say that if I were good enough, I would only ever play internationally for Wales...I am Welsh after all, with no heritage from any other state...

Ben Morgan in fairness to him in 'choosing' his allegience said something similar...

I do however think that residency is a valid thing...I'm currently living in Aussie, and who knows how I'd feel in 7 years??!! (Though I highly doubt a change from Welsh...)

I think that it comes down to age more than anything...

I must admit, I do like the idea of an under 18 requiring 3 years.
An under 20 - 5 years
Anyone older - 7 years

Bill, dont think theres a grey area for youngsters?

Comfort, for me it is quite simple, if you leave the country you were schooled in whilst at school because your parents move, you have little choice to follow as they are providing you with, food, shelter, cost of education etc.

When you leave for a nother country and you are no longer financially dependant on them, you do so out of you own free will. That in my opinion is the natural line to draw.

I am totally against this sort of movement - These lads are South African and New Zealand and I'm sure they are very proud of that as they should be. This for me is the thin end of the wedge and a welsh win with 3-4 foreign players is not really a welsh win for me as it is watered down considerably. It's just my view but that's it for me.

They're still south african developed mate, you can cut it up any way you like

Barritt is but Stevens came through the Bath academy and Botha is an odd one. He learnt his rugby over in England but is certainly a Saffa having grown up there.

Certainly a tightening of regulations in who can play for whom would be a good idea in order to stop the pilfering of young talents. At the same time rugby has historically seen a lot of players move around the world and play for different nations. Martin Johnson played for England schools then NZ age grade before coming back to England and captaining the national team.

Awww, what happened to maestegs post.

I was looking forward to the response

Bill, Id agree with that completely to be honest.

Also agree with all the calls for longer residency rules dependant on age. I think thats a brilliant idea.

How likely is a 24 year old to leave SA (for example) to go to play in England (again just an example) with the hope of qualifying for test rugby knowing that hes going to be 31 before he gets his first chance.

wales606 wrote:Awww, what happened to maestegs post.

I was looking forward to the response

PM'd you mate...!

The simple answer is to make playing for the under 20s mean you are no longer elegable for anyone else full stop (like Shingler). Seeing as anyone who is half decent (or somethime barely acceptable) play in the under 20s squad at some point for their nation, they will then be unable to play else where. And if in your heart, even though you were born in one country, feel a strong passion towards another nation then you just trun down the U20s cap and wait for residency.

Comfort wrote:Bill, Id agree with that completely to be honest.

Also agree with all the calls for longer residency rules dependant on age. I think thats a brilliant idea.

How likely is a 24 year old to leave SA (for example) to go to play in England (again just an example) with the hope of qualifying for test rugby knowing that hes going to be 31 before he gets his first chance.

The IRB need to introduce compensation to nations and to clubs that have trained players, invested in them that are then poached by other nations teams at international and club level.

SS absolutely!!!!!

I dont see why anyone would be against their under 20s locking their players to that country. By the time you paly for the u20-s you can vote, drive, drink, smoke and pretty much do anything you want to within the law. Im sorry, but if theres a minority who feel they are not old enough to know which country they feel like they want to play for by that age then you decide not to play for any u20s, thats not the majoritys problem.

Comfort wrote:SS absolutely!!!!!

I dont see why anyone would be against their under 20s locking their players to that country. By the time you paly for the u20-s you can vote, drive, drink, smoke and pretty much do anything you want to within the law. Im sorry, but if theres a minority who feel they are not old enough to know which country they feel like they want to play for by that age then you decide not to play for any u20s, thats not the majoritys problem.

And considering that there are less countries who use an A Team than all the countries who use an under 20s team it is absolutely ridiculous that the IRB havent changed the rule yet. Currently the laws are too ambiguous, last case had to have a hearing.

wales606 wrote:Awww, what happened to maestegs post.

I was looking forward to the response

I imagine it was removed because he was making wild allegations and posting insulting comments. I didn't ask for it to be removed but it appears the moderation system is a well-oiled machine.

Because it's all so black and white. God forbid anyone ever has allegiances to more than one country. I'm English and my wife is Welsh (and very proud of it). If we have kids they'll probably be brought up in England, Welsh speaking and following English rugby through me and their local club and Wales through their granddad.

But come 18 I will make them choose one or the other and put a big brand on them so everyone knows (and they don't forget). And if they ever decide to emmigrate they will be disowned.

I completely agree with the Cricket Board's policy and the IRB really do need to look at that.

As an alternative, perhaps the IRB are trying to encourage more 'A' sides, and this may go some way to solving the problem. Brad Barritt for example would surely have made a Springbok A side whilst at the sharks, and perhaps it's high time for some sort of very short A tours/competition?

The IRB need to introduce compensation to nations and to clubs that have trained players, invested in them that are then poached by other nations teams at international and club level.

Difficult to organise. What do you then do when a big club, say an AP one, have a young player who turns down their offer of a new contract because he doesn't think he's going to get enough first team opportunities. He accepts a contract from a smaller club, say Championship club, the big club turn round and demand compensation. The Championship club can't afford it and so don't go ahead with the deal and the young player ends up with little choice but to stay at the bigger club and get splinters.

HammerofThunor wrote:Because it's all so black and white. God forbid anyone ever has allegiances to more than one country. I'm English and my wife is Welsh (and very proud of it). If we have kids they'll probably be brought up in England, Welsh speaking and following English rugby through me and their local club and Wales through their granddad.

But come 18 I will make them choose one or the other and put a big brand on them so everyone knows (and they don't forget). And if they ever decide to emmigrate they will be disowned.

Thunor - I was born the in Hampshire, my Mother was born in Hampshire, and my Father was born in Pembrokshire, also I have an Irish Grandmother. I was brough up knowing about where my family are from etc. That said I have never classed myself as anything but welsh since I was about 11-12 (and about 90% of the people I know who are of mixed origins have been clear of htir nationality at an early age). I have an a soft spot for Hampshire (and now Norfolk as my wife is from there), and for Munster but I don't have the urge to sundenly become Irish or English.

good point hammer - things are rarely black and white