Wales look at Pretorious, Paterson and Dirksen for future call-ups

First topic message reminder :

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/rugbynation/rugby-news/2012/05/14/wales-target-southern-hemisphere-blues-duo-and-ospreys-star-hanno-dirksen-for-future-selection-91466-30967932/

ROB HOWLEY has revealed three foreign-born regional stars are on Wales' selection radar.

Howley admitted he has checked up on the eligibility of Ospreys winger Hanno Dirksen and Blues forwards Andries Pretorius and Michael Paterson ahead of naming the summer training squad for the Test series in Australia.

Those checks revealed South Africans Dirksen and Pretorius and New Zealander Paterson weren’t available for the tour of Australia as they still have time to serve before qualifying for Wales on the three-year residency rule.

But back rower Pretorius, who has just returned from a six-month knee injury lay-off, could be big candidate for Wales honours next season as he becomes eligible later this summer.

Blues Player of the Year Paterson has another 12 months to run before qualifying in the summer of 2013, while Dirksen won’t be eligible until January 2014.

“We checked up on the qualification of Michael Paterson and Andries Pretorius as well as Hanno Dirksen,” he said.

“They are not qualified for this tour.”


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Say what you like about eligibility rules, but these 3 would certainly add depth to the welsh squad.

Pretorious is likely to play 8 next season and be eligible for Wales (and has previously stated he wants to play for Wales) - he could prove to be the long term backup to Faletau at 6.

Paterson would provide further depth to the backrow, and could really challenge Lydiate if he can take his regional performances to the international level.

Dirksen is not really a surprise - Wales are a bit short on wings after S.Williams retirement and nobody is really pushing North or even the newby Cuthbert for a place. Pity we will have to wait until 2014 to see if Dirksen can step up to international rugby.

I don't want them stiffened much. Just an increase to 5 years for residency. I certainly don't want to force people to make a decision at 18 (people are allowed to change after the age of 18).

What I was suggesting were modifications to the Regional NWQ player agreement with the WRU. The newer one would mean no adult players could every qualify for residency (which seems to be what most posters want).

Biltong, but it's not countries doing it. In Ireland the IRFU 'own' the Provinces but I'm almost certain they don't tell they who to bring in. The clubs in England are completely seperate from the RFU. Leicester Tigers tend to prefer to bring in relatively unknown players and turn them into Tigers, rather than bringing in ready made players.

Also this isn't new phenomonon. Martin Johnson was headhunted to New Zealand purely for rugby purposes. And that was in the amateur era. I dislike the idea unions bringing foriegn players for the purpose of them gaining qualification but does anyone do that? The RFU certainly don't. The IRFU and WRU have/had 'potential eligible' player quotes (that didn't HAVE to be filled) but looking at their teams it's either not worked out very well or was never intended for that purpose (cough cowpat cough).

Hammer, I realise it is the clubs doing it, problem is it leaves the door open for later on that the youngster may in future represent the new country.

I don't think there are any national unions doing it for the purpose of international representation, but unfortunately the natural progression is if clubs headhunt these youngsters at an early age from let's say craven Week or something similar, chances are those talents will be lost.

biltongbek wrote:Maes, not every one has your strength of conviction and patriotism though.

I've seen how money can influence people in my career, and it ain't pretty.

Isn't the objection to money's influence what most of this issue is really about?

Not at all, but money buys loyalty.

maestegmafia wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Maes, not every one has your strength of conviction and patriotism though.

I've seen how money can influence people in my career, and it ain't pretty.

Isn't the objection to money's influence what most of this issue is really about?

That is what I thought the whole arguement was about. People are getting all uptight because players are deciding to leave their own nations, who they have less hopes of playing for, in order to move to another nation who they have better hopes of playing for. Mercaneries moving from place to place looking for the biggest pay check they can pick up, and the biggest stage they can get to play on.

Just looking at the examples within the welsh regions. Would Paterson be wanted by the All Blacks? Would Dirkson or Petorious be wanted by the South Africans? The simple answer is no. So the players move to a country where they stand a chance of getting into the national side.

Spiderman, you missing the point of representation.

I said this yesterday on another thread.

Test rugby is the last line of defence where rugby is still us vs them, if these lines get blurred and soon by the look of things, international teams will no longer be us vs them, it will be a bit of this and a bit of that, and for me that takes away the purity of test rugby.

Absolutely, Biltong. International rugby is about representing a nation. We shouldn't be sending out players to represent us who clearly don't represent us. Say Wales beat New Zealand but fielded half-a-dozen South Africans in order to do so. Well, Wales wouldn't have beaten them, would we?

Just think about this, why are Welsh supporters so passionate about their team, why are Springbok fans so passionate, look at the proud history and tradition of these international teams (I mean all of them), we watch a wolrd cup and scream shout, get angry, blame referees etc.

WHY?

Becuase we identify ourselves with our compatriots representing the pride of our nation.

Do you think that passion and pride will remain if the springboks has 7 south Afircans, two Englishman, one Welshman, one New Zealander etc.

Mate, that will just be a gloryfied club team.

Bil - if you make international ameture, and make people ineligible to swap alligence after playing U20s surely that stops the mercs from traveling, and keeps it us vrs them.

Yes there will be people looking to poach from under 13s - U18s sides in order to convert the players, but how many parents would be happy for their son to sod off from the SH to the NH in order to have a chance at playing international rugby (for not money) for another nation?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Absolutely, Biltong. International rugby is about representing a nation. We shouldn't be sending out players to represent us who clearly don't represent us. Say Wales beat New Zealand but fielded half-a-dozen South Africans in order to do so. Well, Wales wouldn't have beaten them, would we?

Luckless that is exactly my point.

Let Club rugby be the vehicle where players make their living, I have little issue with that and understand the economics of it.

but let our country's own players represent our nations.

That's the whole point. How do you define a nation's 'own' players? I think we got it to 'developed within the union's system'. Which would mean we must get rid of grandparent, parent and birth place qualification criteria.

Correct, Hammer, that will be the gest of it.

maestegmafia wrote:

Carpe Diem wrote:Well done for bringing up the fact that an administrative error nearly scuppered a great international career though, well done indeed!

What was the administrative error you mentioned? Havent heard that one before. I thought it was a clear cut case of a rugby loving Leicestershire MP instigating the case and preventing a Tigers Academy player being deported because the candidate about to be deported was good at rugby?

I was being facetious, probably should have put quote marks round it.

Biltong - I think we are getting crossed wires here. I only ever want to see Welsh players being Welsh men. I don't want other nations cast offs, who have lived here long enough. I don't want someone who has a Scottish Mother and a Welsh father, who feels Scottish, but has better chances playing for Wales. I want 15 Welsh men, who feel so strongly about their nationality that they will put they body and souls on the line.

I want there to be more people like Simon Easterby (turned down England for Ireland when England were the better team), and Isa Necewa (once he learnt Fiji had stitched him from playing for NZ, never played for Fiji again), Deacon Manu (turned Wales down for Fiij, putting his place at the SCarlets on the line), Jason Jones-Hughes (turned his back on Aus for Wales) and I want the like of Shane Howarth, Bachop brothers, Steve Shingler, and Quade Cooper.

I just think that if you took the financial incentive out of international rugby, and made people put their nationality on paper officially at an early point in their career then there should be less traitors and mercs around.

maestegmafia

The difference between voting and choosing which country you will represent is completely different.

At 18 you can vote yes... but you can change your mind a few years later if you so wish. Not sure how old you are dude but if you are +10yrs past 18 I'm sure you would be horrified as we all are by the choices we generally make when you technically become an adult.

Remember the old saying 'If you're not a socialist aged 20 you have no heart, if you're still a socialist aged 40 you have no brain'.

People change.

I recall comments made by the former Scotland footballer Stuart McCall who was born in England whilst his Da was playing professional football. He himself was called up by ENG U21s in the 80s and accepted.
He was placed on the subs bench and come 85 mins he was told to warm up.... right there and then he says he suddenly realised what a mistake he made, that his heart was for Scotland... but if he went on the pitch he would become available for ENG only at all levels.

So he took his boots off, untied the laces to give him a few extra mins... eventually his substitution was too late and he went on to represent Scotland seniors out of his own choice.

Any U20 side stated as the A side is unfair in my book... in reality it would be probably the 7th or 8th side. Whatever it is it should be uniform amongst all nations... if Wales or whoever wants to get rid of their actual A side it should be up to them.

Imagine Wales play ENG in a U20 match. Each side has a player who is torn between both countries via birth, parentage etc. The player from Wales cannot change his mind and play for the ENG senior squad from that moment... yet the ENG player can have a change of heart and pledge his senior career to Wales. That is unfair and shouldn't happen.

Imagine Wales play ENG in a U20 match. Each side has a player who is torn between both countries via birth, parentage etc. The player from Wales cannot change his mind and play for the ENG senior squad from that moment... yet the ENG player can have a change of heart and pledge his senior career to Wales. That is unfair and shouldn't happen.

Is this because wales doesn't have an A side, but U20 only?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Biltong - I think we are getting crossed wires here. I only ever want to see Welsh players being Welsh men. I don't want other nations cast offs, who have lived here long enough. I don't want someone who has a Scottish Mother and a Welsh father, who feels Scottish, but has better chances playing for Wales. I want 15 Welsh men, who feel so strongly about their nationality that they will put they body and souls on the line.

I want there to be more people like Simon Easterby (turned down England for Ireland when England were the better team), and Isa Necewa (once he learnt Fiji had stitched him from playing for NZ, never played for Fiji again), Deacon Manu (turned Wales down for Fiij, putting his place at the SCarlets on the line), Jason Jones-Hughes (turned his back on Aus for Wales) and I want the like of Shane Howarth, Bachop brothers, Steve Shingler, and Quade Cooper.

I just think that if you took the financial incentive out of international rugby, and made people put their nationality on paper officially at an early point in their career then there should be less traitors and mercs around.

I understand perfectly spiderman.

On Simon Easterby as a cynic I reckon its not just that his heart was for Ireland.... given that at the time ENG had Richard Hill, Laurence Dillaglio, Neil Back, Martin Corry, Joe Worsley & Lewis Moody I doubt he would have ever really featured for ENG at least before the top 3 retired around 2005.

Test rugby is a big pull for players. He may have (noted - may have) looked at the strength of the ENG backrow at the time and said... I wil never in a million years dislodge those 3.

biltongbek

Yes, Wales got rid of their A side for financial reasons if I recall so the next competitive test side is their U20s which they nominated as their A side.

fa0019 wrote:On Simon Easterby as a cynic I reckon its not just that his heart was for Ireland.... given that at the time ENG had Richard Hill, Laurence Dillaglio, Neil Back, Martin Corry, Joe Worsley & Lewis Moody I doubt he would have ever really featured for ENG at least before the top 3 retired around 2005.

Test rugby is a big pull for players. He may have (noted - may have) looked at the strength of the ENG backrow at the time and said... I wil never in a million years dislodge those 3.

HE was asked to play for them back in 1999, before the unholy trinity actually made there mark. Back then he couldn't have told they were going to make such an impact.

FA, question then, if a player such as shingler, gets selected for Wales under 20, surely he developed in their system, how else did he get noticed?

ScarletSpiderman

You mean other than Hill & Dillaglio being 2 of the 3 test backrows on the successful SA Lions tour in 97 and Back being the first choice reserve. The other test backrow player in 97 was Tim Rodber, also ENG.

Nevertheless, if he did do it for loyalty reasons only, I take my hat off to him.

Spiderman, an example from football would be Ryan Giggs. He would have walked into the England team, but he chose Wales even though he knew that doing so meant he'd probably never feature in a major international tournament. I have nothing but admiration for that.

biltongbek

I assume he did develop in Wales.. but we the UK is a very small nation... its the size of the Western Cape... All 60MM of us crammed together (well I say us being a expat Brit).

Moving from ENG to WAL or WAL to SCO isn't the same as emigrating from SA to AUS for instance. Generally its at best a 4hr train journey. If you're Scottish but want to work in financial services.... you move to London. We are 4 countries in 1 so the issues are a lot more greyer than esp. outside of Europe. Due to this kids often have at least a grandparent who is from another part of the UK where ever they live.

LP - I agree on the Giggs point... but he did develop in ENG and from what some posters are saying... given he developed under the ENG system he should play for ENG.... Personally I disagree but I do understand why some may think this way... ENG spent the money... why should some other nation reap the benefits.

fa0019 wrote:Due to this kids often have at least a grandparent who is from another part of the UK where ever they live.

And those that don't end to have extra fingers and toes

I don't and I don't. Although I did have 2 too many teeth if that counts.

HammerofThunor wrote:I don't and I don't. Although I did have 2 too many teeth if that counts.

Sp you took up rugby to sort out the extra teeth thing

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:I don't and I don't. Although I did have 2 too many teeth if that counts.

Sp you took up rugby to sort out the extra teeth thing

Spiderman is it sorted now?

A few years ago there was a Zimbabwean born fly half, Kennedy Tsimba that pplayed for the cheetahs, he got tackled so hard his two front teeth blew out. I wonder if youtube has a clip, I'll see if I can find something.

There are a lot of guys (and girls in fact) in Cape Town without their two front teeth... but something tells me this isn't to do with rugby.

Exerpt from and article on supersport.

Tsimba, who was ably supported by a powerful pack of forwards led by lock Boela
du Plooy, was able to revel in the open and expansive rugby which has always been a hallmark
of the game in the Free State. His courage was another of his fine attributes, earning
him the respect of the largely conservative Bloemfontein public. He played on after
losing his two front teeth to a late tackle against the Lions in the quarter-final. After treatment
on the side of the field he returned to score a try and kick his side to victory.

The rules about qualification by residence are from an era when if people had to travel abroad to work, there could well be no practical way they could represent their country of origin. That doesn't apply any more, and, in my view, qualification through residence should reflect a genuine commitment to the new country (like Dale McIntosh, who's still in Ponty), and correspondingly be long enough to put off people just looking for an international career they wouldn't get with the country or countries for which they are qualified by birth or ancestry.

I would feel very uncomfortable about Dirksen or Pretorius representing Wales, however good they are. Likewise, it's ridiculous Mauritz Botha representing England, and I don't understand why England feel that they need to hoover up rejects from other countries, it's not as though they struggle to produce quality second rows anyway.

Within the British Isles it tends to be a bit less clear-cut, as we've mixed quite a lot. So we've had, playing for England, people like Huw Davies, Dewi Morris, Owen 'Josh' Lewsey, Martin Corry, all of whom might be seen as more obviously qualified for Wales but apparently felt more of an allegiance to England (well, not in Lewsey's case, but idiots that we are we turned him down). Dean Richards has/had a Welsh father. You can't really carp about that, unless someone is clearly just using a remote connection to get international caps for a country with whom they have no real allegience.

The UK is administered from Westminster, so is there really any difference between the funds going to Wales than England? Why shouldn't players brought up anywhere in the UK be allowed to represent any of the home nations?

ENG gets a lot of stick for recent players such as Hape, Botha and Fioure but they are probably the least guilty out of all 4 nations.

They have 'lost' more players than most to guys born and raised in ENG but deciding to represent the land of their fathers/grandfathers etc.

Just since the professional era you can list the following

Scotland

Dave Hilton, Peter Walton, Andy Reed, Simon Danielli, Hugo Southwell, Simon Webster, Budge Poutney, Gavin Kerr

Wales

Iestyn Harris, Tom Shanklin, Colin Charvis, Alex Cuthbert, Rupert Moon

Ireland

Simon Easterby, Rob Henderson, Paul Burke, Justin Bishop, Kieran Campbell, Simon Geoghegan.

Other than Dewi Morris I can't think of any other players who were born & raised in the Celtic nations but represented ENG.. am sure there are some however. But the recent additions of Catt, Fioure, Botha, Hape, Flutey, Stevens, Barritt, Paul etc have tainted their image a little... and to be honest I would say only Mike Catt was ever worth the bother... the rest were competent test players at best and the next best ENG player wasn't that far off.

BlueNote wrote:The rules about qualification by residence are from an era when if people had to travel abroad to work, there could well be no practical way they could represent their country of origin. That doesn't apply any more, and, in my view, qualification through residence should reflect a genuine commitment to the new country (like Dale McIntosh, who's still in Ponty), and correspondingly be long enough to put off people just looking for an international career they wouldn't get with the country or countries for which they are qualified by birth or ancestry.

I would feel very uncomfortable about Dirksen or Pretorius representing Wales, however good they are. Likewise, it's ridiculous Mauritz Botha representing England, and I don't understand why England feel that they need to hoover up rejects from other countries, it's not as though they struggle to produce quality second rows anyway.

Within the British Isles it tends to be a bit less clear-cut, as we've mixed quite a lot. So we've had, playing for England, people like Huw Davies, Dewi Morris, Owen 'Josh' Lewsey, Martin Corry, all of whom might be seen as more obviously qualified for Wales but apparently felt more of an allegiance to England (well, not in Lewsey's case, but idiots that we are we turned him down). Dean Richards has/had a Welsh father. You can't really carp about that, unless someone is clearly just using a remote connection to get international caps for a country with whom they have no real allegience.

You make some good points and then stick some complete tosh in there.

Botha came over 7 years before getting capped and had never played professional rugby. Of all the cases of people qualifying by residency he's the least ridiculous.

Lewsey was born and raised in England but more obviously qualfied for Wales?

Corry was born and raised in England but more obviously qualified for Wales?

Dean Richards had a welsh father, there he should play for Wales as well should he?

It some with some Welsh fans that any link to Wales, regardless how tenuous, makes you Welsh. But everyone else has to be 100% 'pure' or else you're poaching

To be honest I think of those players born and raised in ENG.. the general rule has been... if you were good enough to play for ENG, you played for ENG, if just not quite good enough, you played for SCO, IRE, WAL etc if you qualified.. at least since the 1980s anyhow.

The only player I think could have made a real difference for ENG that chose to represent another nation was Simon Geoghegan.

Perhaps Tom Shanklin at a push also.

fa0019 wrote:Perhaps Tom Shanklin at a push also.

I think he would have slotted straight into Will Greenwood's shirt when Will retired. And in Shanks defence wasn't his dad a welsh international?

I think you're right about Shanklin. Good player and given his Da was a Wales international there was almost no chance he would have played for anyone else.

I have said this before but for me the easy way is to make it A Level games and above.

ANything below that doesn't qualify, if as at the moment we don't have an A Side then its just tough. Maybe it would make the WRU get their finger out and reinstate the A Side.

HoT,

Lewsey has one Welsh and one half-Welsh parent, when he was at school (from an English friend of mine who was in his class and rugby team) all he could talk about was how he was going to play for Wales. I have no problem with him playing for England, he could easily have played for either.

Corry similar re parentage and I believe even speaks Welsh. Again, no problem with him playing for England. My point was, a lot of people are mixed in terms of heritage and where they grow up nowadays.

Dean Richards is about as Welsh as George North is English. In both cases, I'd say they were playing for the most obvious country.

Botha came over to play rugby. Okay, it took him a while to get to be a pro player and ultimately to be capped. If he's been here that long, fair enough, I suppose.

There's another thing to consider with regards to UK eligebility - many Welsh people born in Mid/North Wales close to the English border are born in England as the closest hospitals are in England, I imagine the same is true for the South of Scotland by the English border.

You can also have a born and bred, proud (for some reason ) English family but when the mother is pregnant they happen to be working in Wales/Scotland/Ireland - very likely seeing the amount of movement between the countries and the short distances. The kid might be born in Wales/Scotland/Ireland and may even go to school in that country but be brought up a proud Englishman(child) and might go back to England at some point - but as he's born in (say) Wales, he's technically Welsh - but to my eyes he'd be English.
This is also more difficult when you consider the amount of migration to/from London, particularly for jobs.

bedfordwelsh wrote:I have said this before but for me the easy way is to make it A Level games and above.

ANything below that doesn't qualify, if as at the moment we don't have an A Side then its just tough. Maybe it would make the WRU get their finger out and reinstate the A Side.

What about the Tier 2/3 sides who haven't got any money - should be just tell them tough if you ain't got an A team?
If we're talking about reducing the number of "non-nationals" playing in National teams (particularly Tier 1 teams) then surely abolishing this rule would only increase the amount of Fijian, Samoan, Tongan, Japanese, Georgian ect players moving to a big league (Super 15, AV, Pro12, Top14) and then being qualified for that nations national team?

I should note that I think Wales desperately need an A team, for many reasons but it would sort out these eligebility problems.

Priest,

Fair call and get your point but the whole fuss with Shingler (for instance) came about because countries (france in this case) can change the status of what is their 2nd string side.

Maybe tier one Nations should be A Side then another level maybe for tier 2/3 Nations.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Priest,

Fair call and get your point but the whole fuss with Shingler (for instance) came about because countries (france in this case) can change the status of what is their 2nd string side.

Maybe tier one Nations should be A Side then another level maybe for tier 2/3 Nations.

Or just Under 20s world wide. There are probably more nations with Under 20s sides than A sides anyway. There is an Under 20s World Cup, so it is a serious level of rugby. Where as A team rugby can't even have a complete 6Ns tournament as Wales and France are without A sides.

SS,

Again fair one at least it would be level across the board and everyone, both players and Unions alike would know the score.

bedfordwelsh wrote:SS,

Again fair one at least it would be level across the board and everyone, both players and Unions alike would know the score.

To be honest that is the whole problem with the Shingler stuff, inconsitancy of what makes you eligable.

Hanno Dirkson has played for USA unde 20s, and he is the youngest player to have played for the USA Eagles too. However because it was an uncapped game he is free to qualify for Wales under residency and to pull on a Welsh international jersey. Loop holes like that need closing off.

Then why not U18 then... that too is serious rugby and most of the players will be on their first professional contract.

The thing is the U20 is by no shape of form the next best side in any nation. Its not even close. I would imagine Wales could field maybe 6 sides which would be better than their U20 side. So in reality its not their A side... rather their 7th/ 'F' side.

I agree though it should be the same for everyone.. and if you don't have a A side or a U20 side then tough. You shouldn't be able to nominate which side is and which side isn't.

Fa - your arguement could also be used for not using the A side as the cut off point and only using full international caps, as after all most countries (who have an A side) don't feild their next best 22/23 men, as they have a full squad and an A squad.

Also I don't think we could feild more than maybe one side (ignoring the full squad) better than our U20s, especially when you consider we currently have North, R Jones, and H Robinson in the full squad and all of them could be U20s still.

do you really believe your U20 side would beat all but 2 sides in Wales comprising of Welsh registered players? Very surprised.

Take out the odd player like North etc and most will hardly be getting first class game time right... you have 4 provincial sides and a strong league below it. Also I think the older player would just physically beat up most U20 sides regardless of talent.

The former ENG captain U20 who took them to the JRWC final Hugo Ellis, doesn't he play club rugby in Wales now??? Even 3 years after I bet he isn't in the top 50 backrow players in Wales.

Here in SA other than a few players like Goosen, the majority of the U20 players have no Super rugby experience, little CC experience and perhaps at best Vodacom Cup play... i.e. SA could probably field 10+ sides which would beat its U20 side... esp if they added players plying their trade abroad.

Strangely enough SA also does not have an A side so I assume they will also have nominated their U20 side as the next best team.