Ulster squad additions

First topic message reminder :

You did not imagine that - it was said. A few weeks ago too.

Lads looking from the outside in here, this discussion looks like it could boil over, just keep it civil

And for once its not notch whos at it how you fixed for the weekend buddy??, what time you getting in?? How you sorted for getting to Richmond??

clivemcl wrote:They've paid their taxes Stand, they are entitled the benefits returned from the governments budget.

They aren't entitled to judge those who don't sing their anthem though. That's my point. I don't go in for politics. I just think that being critical of those who recognise the British national anthem whilst at the same time taking 60 odd million from the same government is a tad hypocritical. And I say that as someone who would err towards the nationalist side of things.

Small bugbear anyway. To sum up, ulster are going in the right direction.

Now any word on actual signings

People are taking Aodhan Gallagher’s comments very personally, not to mention seriously. He can support whoever he wants. There’s an awful lot of assumptions about why he might prefer Munster, based on an awful lot of personal assumptions about him. I hope his allegiance switches to Ulster, but then, I hope that of everyone. I want everyone to accept the Ulster Way into their heart.

In other news, I bumped into Muller this morning. Wished him luck and he was very gracious. Told him I thought he was doing some job, and he chuckled and said he appreciated it.

He taught me a song before we parted ways*

“I’d rather have a Muller than a Thorn,
Oh, I’d rather have a Muller than a Thorn,
Yes, I’d rather have a Muller,
Though Brad’s wallet is fuller,
I would rather have a Muller than a Thorn.”

Gentleman.


*Actual events may differ from those described.

rodders wrote:Hook you used the word sectarian, not me but I'm stunned that you think that reading a survey or some research qualifies you to make such a sweeping and judgemental statement about a section of society that you do not represent.

You are also applying research on one sample of people on a specific area to another on a totally seperate issue.

Your implication was crystal clear Rodders, and frankly it is too late for you to attempt to take an moral high road by implying anything otherwise. That statement of yours towards my character was, to use a term bandied about here earlier, 'despicable'.

Guess what, it's not a study or a bit of research, but reems of it. For you to suggest that I cannot make a comment about something I know a damn lot more than you about because 'I am not from that community' is ignorant in the extreme. Should I refrain from studying anything from before I was born because I was not alive then, or anything outside Northern Ireland because I have not lived there? That is such an ignorant comment and demonstrates you haven't the faintest idea what these surveys represent. Maybe you should enlighten yourself, read half a dozen or so and see what they actually say and see they are not journalistic hackery but considered academic theses. You might just learn something instead of making statements about someone's integrity.

Academic studies do that, try and spot patterns and see if they explain problems and issue in related subjects. That's why I made a suggestion and did not claim it to be fact. I am not some sort of 'keyboard warrior' and I would be pretty confident that my qualifications and hours teaching and taking seminars at tertiary level meant I actually know what I'm talking about. I also said some members, which is certainly not a sweeping or judgmental statement to make. Did I say all? No. I could be entirely wrong, but given surveys into GAA, football, cricket and earlier studies into rugby all suggest what I have stated I don't think what I said was unreasonable whatsoever. If you are 'from that community' so to speak and were somehow offended then I certainly apologise to you. But your implication is truly offensive.

Hoog wrote:And for once its not notch whos at it how you fixed for the weekend buddy??, what time you getting in?? How you sorted for getting to Richmond??

Glas says I'm mellowing with old age...

Hughie, I think we are going to be at Heathrow around 10. That leaves us pretty close to Richmond. I'd say we'll have little trouble getting to Richmond. Just got to make sure we sort all our directions and everything tomorrow for getting to the pub for about 12!

Rava wrote:

clivemcl wrote:

Can we put the premiership footy comparison to bed. We are talking about Ulstermen wishing Munster to beat Ulster, not wishing Mun Utd to beat Crusaders.

I don't see the difference. Both are professional sports. People should be able to support whatever team they wish!

I never said they shouldnt be able to Rava, I'm not a dictator. I'm just saying i dont like that they do. I would simply question why an ulsterman would support Munster to beat Ulster if he had no link with Munster.

Yea, maybe once upon a time he just decided to pick a team to support, just like a 8 year old kid decides to be a chelsea supporter. If thats the case (although i think it would be a rare instance), then fair enough.

If however (and in fairness I have no evidence to support this) the person supports another team because he/she feels that Ulster Rugby is protestant or not welcoming to catholics, then I believe they are wrong in the reasoning. I would certainly try and convince them that his team should be Ulster where he was born and bred.

Hook I'm not taking any moral highground mate, I simply disagree strongly with the deterministic and judgemental tone and vocabulary used in your post.

I'm afraid I don't have your academical expertise on this subject but from my own anacedotal experience of people from all sorts of cultural, religious and political backgrounds, including the group you have highlighted, I've tended to find that the majority of widely held stereotypes tend not to be accurate.

You believe that Culchies shag sheep though rodders? Thats a stereotype

Clive I get where you are coming from but it should be more to do with convincing them to support Ulster because of the brand of rugby they play. Achieve that and I think we will have made the real progress. We will never fully win the hearts of people who feel politically more at home in an all Ireland context (if that is the guys motivation for supporting Munster). You only have to look at the soccer arguments to see that. I'm not saying I like the comments by the Antrim Footballer, but I accept that this will happen. I would much prefer that it wouldn't be reported but I am long enough in the tooth to know this wont ever happen.
All my life I have tried to keep politics and sport apart. I like to think I have gained a lot of respect from a lot of quarters for that stance.

rodders wrote:Hook I'm not taking any moral highground mate, I simply disagree strongly with the deterministic and judgemental tone and vocabulary used in your post.

I'm afraid I don't have your academical expertise on this subject but from my own anacedotal experience of people from all sorts of cultural, religious and political backgrounds, including the group you have highlighted, I've tended to find that the majority of widely held stereotypes tend not to be accurate.

Clearly you don not understand what deterministic tone means. As I will point out for at least the third time, it was a suggestion not a fact. If I was making a judgment I would have stated it as fact. I simply did not do this. Once again, let me repeat myself one your other point I stated some not all. This was pointed to you as well by another poster and you choose to ignore both that comment and my various reiterations of the point. You are dealing in anecdotal evidence, and I am dealing with academic evidence and as I have continued to state time and time again on this point the evidence suggests that some members of that community feel that way. This was in 1997 (though I think the survey was carried out the two years before this- it was initially done to see how if the professionalisation of the game would change perceptions) and I would be interested to see the degree to which this has changed.

You have simply decided to see what you wanted to see and not what was actually said. Like I say, read some material and cast your judgment on that rather than attacking someones character.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:
You are dealing in anecdotal evidence, and I am dealing with academic evidence

No you are dealing with unrelated, outdated or irrelevent academic research and applying it to an unrelated topic in order to justify a personal opinion you have.

If you can point me in the direction of specific research that supports the specific conclusion that you have drawn then please point me to it and I will stand corrected otherwise if you want to carry on with your patronising and condescending posts can you please do so via pm.

Lads lads lads... we all want the same things here. Ulster to be successful and to attract fans from different backgrounds. Let's not get into squabbling. We don't want to say something we'll regret later.

Sincerely, Notch. 606v2 harbinger of good will and jocular camaraderie.

Notch wrote:Lads lads lads... we all want the same things here. Ulster to be successful and to attract fans from different backgrounds. Let's not get into squabbling. We don't want to say something we'll regret later.

Sincerely, Notch. 606v2 harbinger of good will and jocular camaraderie.

Not everyone

Does anyone have an opinion on flags?

red_stag wrote:Does anyone have an opinion on flags?

No Italian flags allowed and they need to banned at Ravenhill when their teams come to town or it'll become a Republican training camp

http://www.u.tv/News/School-‘IRA-youth-HQ-in-flags-mix-up/a415e119-9230-4265-b9d5-a16348618fac

Stag, up here it's a FLEG not a Flag.

rodders wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:
You are dealing in anecdotal evidence, and I am dealing with academic evidence

No you are dealing with unrelated, outdated or irrelevent academic research and applying it to an unrelated topic in order to justify a personal opinion you have.

If you can point me in the direction of specific research that supports the specific conclusion that you have drawn then please point me to it and I will stand corrected otherwise if you want to carry on with your patronising and condescending posts can you please do so via pm.

Once again personal vindictive attacks because you simply don't like the suggestion I made. I didn't present it as fact, I presented it as a suggestion. I'm sorry if you feel I am being condescending but I have had to constantly repeat the same points over and over again as you are consistently unable to grasp a very simple point. Once again, I stated that some in that community will never be able to engage with the game due to the divided society and partitionist political and cultural identity, just as it has consistently been shown that a larger section of unionist/loyalist community could never support the GAA due to the issues of flags, language, symbols and anthems. I know Protestants who play. I have been to a handful of Derry matches and McRory schools cup finals. That does not mean that I am representative of an entire community any more than a nationalist/republican who comes to Ravenhill represents that entire community. There will be a section that will not support Ulster rugby for the same reasons that many in the unionist/loyalist community could not support GAA. If that is deterministic, judgmental or condescending then so be it. I'll pass your regards onto an entire sector of British and Irish academia who specialise in this area and tell them you know better than those that have spent years actually studying and publishing on this area. Don't ever imply someone is sectarian unless you can back up your hugely offensive words.

Go away and read these as a start. Jason Tuck would the best to start off with as his PhD is on this particular issue and makes a comparison in both Britain and Ireland. He still hasn't published a monograph version of it which is a shame but the book chapters and articles are excellent on this area.

-A. Bairner, Sportive nationalism and nationalist politics: a comparative analysis of Scotland, the Republic of Ireland and Sweden. Journal of Sport and Social Issues, 20(3), (1996), pp. 314 - 334
-M. Cronin, M Sport and nationalism in Ireland (Dublin, 1999)
-D. Hassan, 'Sport and national identity in Ireland: the case of northern nationalism (Unpublished PhD thesis, University of Ulster)
-J. Tuck, 'Making sense of emerald commotion: rugby union, national identity and Ireland. Paper presented at ‘The Nation and Sport’
Conference, Brunel University, 14 June 2001.
-A. Bairner, 'Sport, Politics and Society in Northern Ireland: Changing Times, New Developments', Studies: An Irish Quarterly Review
Vol. 90, No. 359 (Autumn, 2001), pp. 283-290
-A.Bairner & J. Sugden, Sport, Sectarianism and Society in a Divided Ireland (Leicester, 1995)
-J. Maguire & J. Tuck, 'Identity Politics. A world in union: Rugby, globalisation and Irish identity', in J. Maguire (ed.), Power and Global Sport: Zones of Prestige, Emulation and Resistance (London, 2005)
- J. Tuck, ‘Rugby union and national identity politics’, in A. Bairner (ed.) Sport and the Irish: Histories, Identities, Issues. (Dublin, 2005)
- D. Hassan, 'Rugby Union, Irish Nationalism and National Identity in Northern Ireland'. Football Studies, Vol. 6 No. 1: 5-18.
- J. Tuck & J. Maguire, ‘National Identity, Rugby Union and Notions of Ireland and the Irish.’ Irish Journal of Sociology, 14 (1), 86-109.

clivemcl wrote:

Rava wrote:

clivemcl wrote:

Can we put the premiership footy comparison to bed. We are talking about Ulstermen wishing Munster to beat Ulster, not wishing Mun Utd to beat Crusaders.

I don't see the difference. Both are professional sports. People should be able to support whatever team they wish!

I never said they shouldnt be able to Rava, I'm not a dictator. I'm just saying i dont like that they do. I would simply question why an ulsterman would support Munster to beat Ulster if he had no link with Munster.

Yea, maybe once upon a time he just decided to pick a team to support, just like a 8 year old kid decides to be a chelsea supporter. If thats the case (although i think it would be a rare instance), then fair enough.

If however (and in fairness I have no evidence to support this) the person supports another team because he/she feels that Ulster Rugby is protestant or not welcoming to catholics, then I believe they are wrong in the reasoning. I would certainly try and convince them that his team should be Ulster where he was born and bred.

I think everyone is skirting round the issue, and coming out with a LOT of nonesense.

I call understand Aoidan G's point of view completly (although I don't agree with them)

Lets not forget that Ulster rugby was viewed in a very bad light by the nationalist community, then didn't pick Catholics, I believe they wanted or may have played GSTQ before games, flew a union flag over the ground. That most Catholics/Nationalists wouldn't ever support them. Which former Ulster and Ireland player said I have played for Ireland X times and my country X times, when refering to Ulster. There many many examples. Ulster have really made an effort since the mid nineties to change this image, but it doesn't go away over night.

Because of this past image we have to expect that some people won't support Ulster, thats fine so when he said said he supports Munster thats fine.

You have a problem with him saying that he doesn't have a problem with others following Ulster. This again is progress, in the same position 15-20 years ago if someone said to a West Belfast GAA player they follow Ulster, do you think he'd be fine with it or telling them off of supporting them?

Ulster rugby has changed no doubt, but some of these old hang ups etc will last in peoples memories and be handed down a generation to an extent.

If we are to give out and pretend that these issues don't exist we are closing our eyes to the truth, and being stupid and immature.

If Ulster rugby continues its coarse these things are changing, but no they haven't fully gone away, and they won't have fully gone away in 10 years either. Progress is being made but in such things progress is always slow, and to think these things have fully died and give out about people, in my opinion shows a complete lack of under standing and trying to view things in rose tinted specs.

So, who's our new backrower, then?

Kingshu wrote:

clivemcl wrote:

Rava wrote:

clivemcl wrote:

Can we put the premiership footy comparison to bed. We are talking about Ulstermen wishing Munster to beat Ulster, not wishing Mun Utd to beat Crusaders.

I don't see the difference. Both are professional sports. People should be able to support whatever team they wish!

I never said they shouldnt be able to Rava, I'm not a dictator. I'm just saying i dont like that they do. I would simply question why an ulsterman would support Munster to beat Ulster if he had no link with Munster.

Yea, maybe once upon a time he just decided to pick a team to support, just like a 8 year old kid decides to be a chelsea supporter. If thats the case (although i think it would be a rare instance), then fair enough.

If however (and in fairness I have no evidence to support this) the person supports another team because he/she feels that Ulster Rugby is protestant or not welcoming to catholics, then I believe they are wrong in the reasoning. I would certainly try and convince them that his team should be Ulster where he was born and bred.

I think everyone is skirting round the issue, and coming out with a LOT of nonesense.

I call understand Aoidan G's point of view completly (although I don't agree with them)

Lets not forget that Ulster rugby was viewed in a very bad light by the nationalist community, then didn't pick Catholics, I believe they wanted or may have played GSTQ before games, flew a union flag over the ground. That most Catholics/Nationalists wouldn't ever support them. Which former Ulster and Ireland player said I have played for Ireland X times and my country X times, when refering to Ulster. There many many examples. Ulster have really made an effort since the mid nineties to change this image, but it doesn't go away over night.

Because of this past image we have to expect that some people won't support Ulster, thats fine so when he said said he supports Munster thats fine.

You have a problem with him saying that he doesn't have a problem with others following Ulster. This again is progress, in the same position 15-20 years ago if someone said to a West Belfast GAA player they follow Ulster, do you think he'd be fine with it or telling them off of supporting them?

Ulster rugby has changed no doubt, but some of these old hang ups etc will last in peoples memories and be handed down a generation to an extent.

If we are to give out and pretend that these issues don't exist we are closing our eyes to the truth, and being stupid and immature.

If Ulster rugby continues its coarse these things are changing, but no they haven't fully gone away, and they won't have fully gone away in 10 years either. Progress is being made but in such things progress is always slow, and to think these things have fully died and give out about people, in my opinion shows a complete lack of under standing and trying to view things in rose tinted specs.

Kingsu . I was personally responsible for giving that guy his very first game of club rugby

Don Alfonso wrote:So, who's our new backrower, then?

Have you guys signed one?

Wow so you guys just started a new thread without inviting me? Whats that about?

WillyGilly wrote:Wow so you guys just started a new thread without inviting me? Whats that about?

Well willy it looks like we're split into 2 camps,

one camp says all people from Ulster should support Ulster, the second says support for Ulster rugby was divided on political grounds for many years and it'll take time to mend, to which the first replies get over it.

Kingshu wrote:
Lets not forget that Ulster rugby was viewed in a very bad light by the nationalist community, then didn't pick Catholics, I believe they wanted or may have played GSTQ before games, flew a union flag over the ground. That most Catholics/Nationalists wouldn't ever support them. Which former Ulster and Ireland player said I have played for Ireland X times and my country X times, when refering to Ulster. There many many examples. Ulster have really made an effort since the mid nineties to change this image, but it doesn't go away over night.

We don't sing GSTQ anymore, we do pick catholics now, don't think that flag is still there (I've never seen it anyway).

Nobody is arguing people should have supported us back then, just that they should support us now.

Also, the case isnt that Catholics arent interested in rugby. Thats a seperate topic. The issue is that ulster born and bred rugby fans support a non ulster team.

People who know anything about rugby will know Ravenhill is not the same place it was 20 yrs ago.

I think more effort should be made to get nationalist politicians to go to Ulster matches and get as much publicity around it as possible.

They shout from the rooftops when this kind of thing happens in football and GAA yet I couldnt tell you if anyone from Sinn Fein or SDLP has ever been to an Ulster match.

Also, i think the facts show that rugby was way ahead of the game in its relaxing of who was or wasn't allowed to play compared with the GAA. Although it is saddening to think this was ever the case at UR.

Of course it will take time. And the process won't be accelerated by haranguing people who still have reservations about Ulster, but rather by understanding their point of view showing patience and continuing to make an effort to build bridges.

Flip it on the other side; I probably feel the same way about GAA as some do about rugby. I like it, I'm broadly supportive of Ulster sides and I would encourage people to get involved with it but because of where and when I was brought up it was sort of 'off the menu' and 'not our thing'. So there's a feeling of detachment between me and the sport because I was bitten by the rugby bug at a young age. I''m not going to get big into GAA as an adult. However positive I might be about GAA in Ulster I'll always be, through no fault of anything but the widespread and lamentable segregation in our society, an outsider to it.

I can totally understand why people from a strongly nationalist background feel the same way about rugby but I'm so encouraged at the progress we're making in transforming perceptions of Ulster Rugby.

But Rome wasn't built in a day, and it's going to take time and hard work to get rugby seen as a truly neutral sport in Northern Ireland. Don't get angry if someone says they prefer Munster or rugby isn't for them. The more you get angry and accusing the more entrenched in their viewpoints that person will become. But for every person like that there will be someone else who will be willing to try it, and from those acorns...

clivemcl wrote:They shout from the rooftops when this kind of thing happens in football and GAA yet I couldnt tell you if anyone from Sinn Fein or SDLP has ever been to an Ulster match.

Did you read the article that started this debate? One of the main people interviewed was Barry McElduff of Sinn Fein who has been to Ravenhill several times.

Hook you are the only person to use the word sectarian. Not me. If you choose to infer that then that is your problem. I am not going to apologise for something I did not say.

I stated that some in that community will never be able to engage with the game due to the divided society and partitionist political and cultural identity

No that is not what you stated. What you stated was that some Nationalist /republicans will never support Ulster rugby.

Perhaps that is true but I don't believe that either you or I are qualified to make that statement and I would be very sceptical of any quantative or qualitative research which would draw such a conclusion.

We live in changing and evolving political times and I don't see any reason to believe that Ulster rugby cannot at some point achieve universal support amongst all Ulster based rugby fans.

Notch wrote:

clivemcl wrote:They shout from the rooftops when this kind of thing happens in football and GAA yet I couldnt tell you if anyone from Sinn Fein or SDLP has ever been to an Ulster match.

Did you read the article that started this debate? One of the main people interviewed was Barry McElduff of Sinn Fein who has been to Ravenhill several times.

Glad to hear that Notch! I like Barry, he's funny.

clivemcl wrote:

Kingshu wrote:
Lets not forget that Ulster rugby was viewed in a very bad light by the nationalist community, then didn't pick Catholics, I believe they wanted or may have played GSTQ before games, flew a union flag over the ground. That most Catholics/Nationalists wouldn't ever support them. Which former Ulster and Ireland player said I have played for Ireland X times and my country X times, when refering to Ulster. There many many examples. Ulster have really made an effort since the mid nineties to change this image, but it doesn't go away over night.

We don't sing GSTQ anymore, we do pick catholics now, don't think that flag is still there (I've never seen it anyway).

Nobody is arguing people should have supported us back then, just that they should support us now.

Also, the case isnt that Catholics arent interested in rugby. Thats a seperate topic. The issue is that ulster born and bred rugby fans support a non ulster team.

People who know anything about rugby will know Ravenhill is not the same place it was 20 yrs ago.

I think more effort should be made to get nationalist politicians to go to Ulster matches and get as much publicity around it as possible.

They shout from the rooftops when this kind of thing happens in football and GAA yet I couldnt tell you if anyone from Sinn Fein or SDLP has ever been to an Ulster match.

Also, i think the facts show that rugby was way ahead of the game in its relaxing of who was or wasn't allowed to play compared with the GAA. Although it is saddening to think this was ever the case at UR.

clive if the guy wants to support Munster its on him and its his one opinion your really getting your knickers in a twist over it all

As for the GAA they only ever banned RUC and Army members from playing that that was to do with the likes of Crossmaglen Rangers and St Johns getting their land taken off them for bases to be built on

clivemcl wrote:

Kingshu wrote:
Lets not forget that Ulster rugby was viewed in a very bad light by the nationalist community, then didn't pick Catholics, I believe they wanted or may have played GSTQ before games, flew a union flag over the ground. That most Catholics/Nationalists wouldn't ever support them. Which former Ulster and Ireland player said I have played for Ireland X times and my country X times, when refering to Ulster. There many many examples. Ulster have really made an effort since the mid nineties to change this image, but it doesn't go away over night.

We don't sing GSTQ anymore, we do pick catholics now, don't think that flag is still there (I've never seen it anyway).

Nobody is arguing people should have supported us back then, just that they should support us now.

Also, the case isnt that Catholics arent interested in rugby. Thats a seperate topic. The issue is that ulster born and bred rugby fans support a non ulster team.

People who know anything about rugby will know Ravenhill is not the same place it was 20 yrs ago.

I think more effort should be made to get nationalist politicians to go to Ulster matches and get as much publicity around it as possible.

They shout from the rooftops when this kind of thing happens in football and GAA yet I couldnt tell you if anyone from Sinn Fein or SDLP has ever been to an Ulster match.

Also, i think the facts show that rugby was way ahead of the game in its relaxing of who was or wasn't allowed to play compared with the GAA. Although it is saddening to think this was ever the case at UR.

You have to accept that some people are slow to change their mind and some people never will. To think that they should change their mind now is not a realistic few, some people will never change the way they think about Ulster rugby and we just have to accept that, thats living in the real world.

Who are we to judge who anyone should support.

For instance, I've met a group of 20+ dublin taxi drivers who support Munster. They started supporting Munster about 10 years ago when instead of going to Man Utd for a weekend away, they went to a Munster away game (one of the taxi men was from Limerick) and have been going to all the Munster games ever since (instead of heading over to England at the weekend to watch Man Utd). I think its more admirable if they stick with Munster at this stage, rather than back glory hunting with their own province.

I've also come across a few Ulstermen (from Cavan/Monaghan) at away games. One said they enjoyed the craic for the away trips to France/England and it was a weekend away. It also meant that they didn't have to be politically correct (didn't have to think of what songs they sang or whether someone would take offence to them, flags etc etc) - they just identified more with the Munster fans.

Thinks are changing but Rome wasn't built in a day.

As stated 20% - 25% of our support is Catholic, a handful of the 23 on Saturday are Catholic. Such stats were unheard of 15/20 years ago.

We are making great strides in bringing the game to a wider community - look at Letterkenny rugby club, a match in Derry next year, coaching in South Armagh schools, a Girls school on the Falls Road playing rugby.

We dont blow our own trumpet enough with the perception that many will thing that nothing has changed and are unaware of the above.

The Anscombe phone text is starting to look unsavoury

Text was something like:

"Gareth would play better if he didn't have n****** outside him'
Anscombe says it was sent by someone else.

He needs to come clean and name and shame.
Also being aware of it and only texting Lam is pathetic - he should have picked up the phone.

You wont hear anything this side of Saturday but I can see Ulster bringing Anscombe to account on this. If he doesn't come clean his contract could be in doubt

rodders wrote:Hook you are the only person to use the word sectarian. Not me. If you choose to infer that then that is your problem. I am not going to apologise for something I did not say.

I stated that some in that community will never be able to engage with the game due to the divided society and partitionist political and cultural identity

No that is not what you stated. What you stated was that some Nationalist /republicans will never support Ulster rugby.

Perhaps that is true but I don't believe that either you or I are qualified to make that statement and I would be very sceptical of any quantative or qualitative research which would draw such a conclusion.

We live in changing and evolving political times and I don't see any reason to believe that Ulster rugby cannot at some point achieve universal support amongst all Ulster based rugby fans.

We will have to agree to disagree on this then Rodders. It may not have been your intention, but I thought you made a clear implication. if you say that was't your intention then I have no reason to not believe you.

You have an admirable goal and no one would disagree with it. It wouldn't happen. In one of those articles I pointed you towards (I can't remember which one) there is a comparison made with Belgium. Belgium is also a deeply divided society, though without the recent level of violence that we have had. It pointed, for example, Walloons in southern Belgium who avidly support the French national football side and French football clubs rather than Belgian sides.

The studies down on rugby in Northern Ireland will obviously have flaws. That goes without saying. Most of studies, particularly in a monograph, will have the caveat that they believe the level of nationalist/republican or unionist/loyalist support for rugby and GAA respectively would be lower than their data because people lie in surveys. Inherently some people realise that their responses could be construed as sectarian so they lie about their true feelings. If you take election data invariably exit polls used to show middle ground parties such as the SDP, Lib Dems or Alliance doing better than their actual results because some respondents did not want to admit they voted Tory, SF or DUP! But these studies in sport show quantifiable evidence that these problems exist. If you read them and are sceptical, thats all very well. Some of the evidence may be slightly out of date in some instances and will have undoubtedly changed, but if actually believe that people's attitudes have changed in the past decades when they haven't changed over the past 400 years then that is pretty naive. Maybe you think too much of people's intentions, and I inversely don't think enough of them! Anyway, I found out that hopefully the UoU through Jordanstown will be asking some of these questions in the coming year in a new research study. We will be able to settle this then!

It is simply a fact of life, and it may be an unfortunate result of an ethno-relgious divide, but it is reality nonetheless. There will be rugby fans who simply will never support Ulster due a mix of history/culture/emblems or whatever and will instead prefer to support another province. The Ulster branch, the IRFU, the GAA, the IFA, the FAI, ICU or whoever in whatever sport cannot solve over 400 years of enmity. It doesn't mean they shouldn't try, and it doesn't mean they shouldn't aspire to that goal. Those who are reticent are a minority, a small minority perhaps, but at their core will be impossible to shift. Sport can go along way to 'building bridges' and whatever metaphor people like to use, but it can only do so much.

Is this a potential get out clause Geoff. A save face situation if McLaughlin does the business at the weekend.

Really Geoff, are UR taking this THAT seriously? I must admit, the article I saw doesnt go into details as to who the company was he was keeping at the time. Friends? Colleagues? Players?

At the very least it does not look good that he associates with people who would find this funny.

If he doesnt name and shame, theres always going to be suspicion that it was himself sending the text.



Also, sure Humphries has been looking for an opportunity to undo his wrong decision, hasn't he?

In other news,

http://www.u.tv/News/Parliament-call-to-SUFTUM-on-Saturday/589d1c4a-488e-4906-8407-980b9cd6df1d

geoff998rugby wrote:The Anscombe phone text is starting to look unsavoury

Text was something like:

"Gareth would play better if he didn't have n****** outside him'
Anscombe says it was sent by someone else.

He needs to come clean and name and shame.
Also being aware of it and only texting Lam is pathetic - he should have picked up the phone.

You wont hear anything this side of Saturday but I can see Ulster bringing Anscombe to account on this. If he doesn't come clean his contract could be in doubt

Racism should be abhorred, but what is Anscombe guilty of here? If the report is true then the worst he has done is not ring Lam and name the people that did it. I don't think that really paints him in a negative light, and I'm sure most Ulster fans won't know too much about it when the seasons starts.

There will be good conduct clauses in the contract.

Anscombe has admitted he knows who sent the text.

As Clive says if he doesn't name and shame the suspicion will linger that he sent it himself. He needs to do far more than he has so far to dispel suspicion.

geoff998rugby wrote:The Anscombe phone text is starting to look unsavoury

Text was something like:

"Gareth would play better if he didn't have n****** outside him'
Anscombe says it was sent by someone else.

He needs to come clean and name and shame.
Also being aware of it and only texting Lam is pathetic - he should have picked up the phone.

You wont hear anything this side of Saturday but I can see Ulster bringing Anscombe to account on this. If he doesn't come clean his contract could be in doubt

A clean way for Humphries/Logan to get out of their mistake?!

Rava wrote:Is this a potential get out clause Geoff. A save face situation if McLaughlin does the business at the weekend.

Damn it, beat me to it, smert-arse

clivemcl wrote:Really Geoff, are UR taking this THAT seriously? I must admit, the article I saw doesnt go into details as to who the company was he was keeping at the time. Friends? Colleagues? Players?

At the very least it does not look good that he associates with people who would find this funny.

If he doesnt name and shame, theres always going to be suspicion that it was himself sending the text.



Also, sure Humphries has been looking for an opportunity to undo his wrong decision, hasn't he?

In other news,

http://www.u.tv/News/Parliament-call-to-SUFTUM-on-Saturday/589d1c4a-488e-4906-8407-980b9cd6df1d

Oh shoite, even clive beat me to it!

geoff998rugby wrote:There will be good conduct clauses in the contract.

Anscombe has admitted he knows who sent the text.

As Clive says if he doesn't name and shame the suspicion will linger that he sent it himself. He needs to do far more than he has so far to dispel suspicion.

He should absolutely not name the person he thinks is responsible, certainly not in public at least. Can you imagine the legal implications if he stood up and named someone he thought did it? We would have a coach then going back to New Zealand to defend himself in civil proceedings.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:The Anscombe phone text is starting to look unsavoury

Text was something like:

"Gareth would play better if he didn't have n****** outside him'
Anscombe says it was sent by someone else.

He needs to come clean and name and shame.
Also being aware of it and only texting Lam is pathetic - he should have picked up the phone.

You wont hear anything this side of Saturday but I can see Ulster bringing Anscombe to account on this. If he doesn't come clean his contract could be in doubt

Racism should be abhorred, but what is Anscombe guilty of here? If the report is true then the worst he has done is not ring Lam and name the people that did it. I don't think that really paints him in a negative light, .

I do and more importantly I think Humphreys will as well.
Will be even worse if Lam wants to make an issue of it.

He has said he knows who sent it not that he knows someone who he thinks sent it - an important distinction.

At the very least he should man up go to Lam, apologise to his face, and say he is sorry for the upset it has caused his family, which apparantly it has.

That is not too much to ask and would give he some credibility and dignity from the affair.
If not it leave the impression we have a coach who bottles the hard decision - not good.

I don't know Clive, I don't think racist friends is grounds for dismissal is it?

He needs to be able to show he personally was blameless and it's just a bit of stupidity thats gotten out of hand. I hope he can/does. It's an unpleasant incident.

Maybe if it all goes supervova, we can get Pat Lam? It's an appointment I'd welcome with open arms in truth

Lam make an issue of it? What about the player in question. Weepu? Or wait did he say outside Gareth? 12? Who?

Either way surely the player referred to as a...
would be the one looking to make an issue of it.

I know we are joking about getting to keep BML, but honestly this would come across embarassing for ulster if we let him go, and if we ended up sticking with BML we would get so much stick.

I'm gona scour the net for more articles.

Well if it was a so 'friend' that did it they should hold their hands up and save him the dilemma of risking a new job

geoff the Irish Times have it as

'Anscombe told NZ Truth that he knew who sent the texts and that those responsible thought that at the time it was funny. He did not name the person or people responsible.'

geoff998rugby wrote:He has said he knows who sent it not that he knows someone who he thinks sent it - an important distinction.

My point is that if he says that he knows 'X' did it, then unless he has evidential proof then that individual will absolutely sue Anscombe for defamation unless he has solid proof. Even if Anscombe proves his case on the balance of probabilities then it could be a long process for him.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:
We will have to agree to disagree on this then Rodders. It may not have been your intention, but I thought you made a clear implication. if you say that was't your intention then I have no reason to not believe you.

Then I apologise for the implication. Likewise in hindsight I realise that perhaps I shouldn't have taken such offence to your statement, or at least overreacted.

Agreeing to disagree I have no problem with, I do it a lot... clearly this is a subject of which you have a considerable interest and have given a lot of thought to so I don't doubt your knowledge on it.

I think much bigger hurdles have been overcome in our troubled society than attracting universal cross community support for our team, or at least for the club to be viewed without political or religious baggage and independent of any constitutional arguments about NI.

Maybe I'm just being naive about that but hey ho.....

Anyways I'd like to draw a line under this one, on this thread at least, if that is OK with you? It was not my intention to cause offence to you so for that I apologise .