Ulster squad additions

First topic message reminder :

You did not imagine that - it was said. A few weeks ago too.

Its just a word MrsP. I looked it up.

des·pi·ca·ble/diˈspikəbəl/
Adjective:
Deserving hatred and contempt.
Synonyms:
contemptible - abject - mean - vile

I retract my usage of that word.

Do I think someone who is born and bred here yet supports another team if they play us is wrong? I most certainly do.

I believe its still legal to disagree with people... for now anyways.

geoff998rugby wrote:Well there are a hell of a lot of despicable Ulstermen who go over to support Rangers, Celtic, Man Utd, Liverpool etc every week when there are local teams available every week.

We should be employing more cargo ships like the Union Moon to ram Sealink Ferries transporting these despicable people from our shores. Shame on them. Boycott Sealink for their involvement as well

Cheers for the link Rava. Interesting to hear him talk about nerves on the big stage! I used to throw up before each game at school level!

Disagreeing is good Clive but I am glad you retracted that word.

clivemcl wrote:Its just a word MrsP. I looked it up.

des·pi·ca·ble/diˈspikəbəl/
Adjective:
Deserving hatred and contempt.
Synonyms:
contemptible - abject - mean - vile

I retract my usage of that word.

Do I think someone who is born and bred here yet supports another team if they play us is wrong? I most certainly do.

I believe its still legal to disagree with people... for now anyways.

Clive my problem, and I suspect that of others is that as this is a public forum and can be read by people from all over the world. Your views might in some way be taken as those of Ulster Fans as a whole when clearly they are not.
That you are entitled to your opinion is not an issue but would certainly be if others associated me with them.

Clive, I am glad you retracted the word despicable.

It made you (and Ulster fans) look very foolish with that. I can understand you don't like this guys supporting another Irish province but that was way over the top.

Stag, what one person says does not make an entire group of people look foolish. That is not fair to say.

You've said it yourself MrsP. You said you were disappointed in these people. What exactly gives you the moral high ground to be disappointed by the actions of your peers? Surely you should be supporting people to follow their convictions?

I jest.

We have the same viewpoint, simply you used less shocking words to express it. And I have recognized the folly of my words. (It had a more extreme definition than I thought)

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Stag, what one person says does not make an entire group of people look foolish. That is not fair to say.

I would go as far as to say that by Stags actions, in that he made an assumption of an entire group of people based on one person, I must assume that all Munstermen seem therfore foolish...

Thanks Geoff for posting that article, I thought it was really interesting. Nothing in there surprised me to be honest, and I thought what the community development officer from the GAA came across very well.

A couple of points comes across though in this article. If I have the right person then Orla Bannon who wrote this is a hack, I have read a few of her articles before and unless they are about GAA then she is condescending of the highest order. For anyone from a GAA background to write 'Rugby is at last breaking down barriers of class, and also, where Ulster is concerned, religion' is so absurd that its laughable. We are talking about an organisation in Northern Ireland (not 'the North' as the journalist tried to point out) where they name clubs and trophies after terrorists responsible for, in some cases, mass murder. When I compare the outreach from Ulster rugby to that done by the GAA the the Ulster Council should be utterly embarrassed.

Barry McIlduff once again embarrasses himself over the anthem. I know how some people feel about Ireland's Call, but I really think that the IRFU have come up with the best possible solution to an intractable problem. It is not, as the MLA suggests, a 'national anthem'. It is the anthem of 26 of the 32 counties that make up the Irish side. It is not a national side, but a side made up of two countries (or one countries and one statelet as some academics would have you believe). I for one would never disrespect the anthem of the Irish republic, and none of the Ulster players do- they stand there silent which seems perfectly reasonable. I would never claim to know how any of the Ulster players feel on this issue, they probably don't care, but I couldn't sing a song in a foreign language that represents something I have absolutely no cultural affinity with. I thought McIlduff's comments were ill-thought to say the least.

clivemcl wrote:You've said it yourself MrsP. You said you were disappointed in these people. What exactly gives you the moral high ground to be disappointed by the actions of your peers? Surely you should be supporting people to follow their convictions?

I jest.

We have the same viewpoint, simply you used less shocking words to express it. And I have recognized the folly of my words. (It had a more extreme definition than I thought)

I don't think we do have the same view Clive.

Mine is that I am disappointed that we are not yet at the stage where everyone here will feel we represent them. I see that as our failing, not theirs.

clivemcl wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Stag, what one person says does not make an entire group of people look foolish. That is not fair to say.

I would go as far as to say that by Stags actions, in that he made an assumption of an entire group of people based on one person, I must assume that all Munstermen seem therfore foolish...

hey, you cheeky monkey

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote: When I compare the outreach from Ulster rugby to that done by the GAA the the Ulster Council should be utterly embarrassed.

You are absolutely spot on there.

The GAA have made no real effort to break down barriers and for any of their members to point fingers at Ulster rugby is a joke.

Clive I agree to some extent. It frustrates me to see any rugby fan in Ulster support any Irish team at the expense of their home province.

There are a plethora of reasons for this and rather than condemn and criticise people I think we need to look at the reasons for this and try and work to rectify them so that everyone in Ulster supports and identifies with the side.

I think things are moving in the right direction and the article supports that.

MrsP - out of interest, who is the "us" and who is the "them" in this? That was my argument, about why there is an "us and them" in the first place, regardless of who's failing it is. I don't like viewing Ulster Rugby as being anything other than a community of rugby supporting fans. Whether they are from Ulster or not, whether they are black, white, or whether they are protestant or catholic. It makes zero difference to me who they are.

MrsP wrote:

clivemcl wrote:You've said it yourself MrsP. You said you were disappointed in these people. What exactly gives you the moral high ground to be disappointed by the actions of your peers? Surely you should be supporting people to follow their convictions?

I jest.

We have the same viewpoint, simply you used less shocking words to express it. And I have recognized the folly of my words. (It had a more extreme definition than I thought)

I don't think we do have the same view Clive.

Mine is that I am disappointed that we are not yet at the stage where everyone here will feel we represent them. I see that as our failing, not theirs.

I am also disappointed that they don't feel that way. But in what way do you think we are failing out of interest?

clivemcl wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Stag, what one person says does not make an entire group of people look foolish. That is not fair to say.

I would go as far as to say that by Stags actions, in that he made an assumption of an entire group of people based on one person, I must assume that all Munstermen seem therfore foolish...

I had nothing to loose. Us Munster men appear foolish at the best of times.

red_stag wrote:Clive, I am glad you retracted the word despicable.

It made you (and Ulster fans) look very foolish with that. I can understand you don't like this guys supporting another Irish province but that was way over the top.

Whoa back up the truck there stag-io! You are judging all Ulster fans on the views of one poster???

Jeebus I better stop posting before the world turns against us! .....

Oh my jeebus. I did the thing that always grinds my gears.

I spelt "lose" as "loose".

It ALWAYS wrecks my head when I see it and now I did it meeself

Rory_Gallagher wrote:MrsP - out of interest, who is the "us" and who is the "them" in this? That was my argument, about why there is an "us and them" in the first place, regardless of who's failing it is. I don't like viewing Ulster Rugby as being anything other than a community of rugby supporting fans. Whether they are from Ulster or not, whether they are black, white, or whether they are protestant or catholic. It makes zero difference to me who they are.

I agree with Rory. Why does McElduff have to talk about bridges anyway? He basically says GAA=Catholic and UR=Prod, and we are trying to mix that up. I'd much prefer just to see nationalist politicians come out and say "I like rugby, come on Ulster!"

That would be far more successful in terms of cross-community than continually reinforcing the same old rhetoric of 'bridges', 'barriers' and 'us' and 'them'

Jasus rava its amazing how all the good work you've done in convincing a lot if us that ulster has changed, and then for it all to be nearly undone by ridiculas statements from clive



Don't worry Rav, I know what the real ulster supporters are like, having met many of you in real life. Fantastic bunch and can't wait to have pints tomorrow




Advantage Leinster

red_stag wrote:

clivemcl wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Stag, what one person says does not make an entire group of people look foolish. That is not fair to say.

I would go as far as to say that by Stags actions, in that he made an assumption of an entire group of people based on one person, I must assume that all Munstermen seem therfore foolish...

I had nothing to loose. Us Munster men appear foolish at the best of times.

The thing about brilliance is, it looks foolish to the lesser people

red_stag wrote:Oh my jeebus. I did the thing that always grinds my gears.

I spelt "lose" as "loose".

It ALWAYS wrecks my head when I see it and now I did it meeself

whats the shorter version of 'who is', I keep thinking its 'whose', but I'm pretty sure its not. English is such a stupid language!

Hoog wrote:Jasus rava its amazing how all the good work you've done in convincing a lot if us that ulster has changed, and then for it all to be nearly undone by ridiculas statements from clive



Don't worry Rav, I know what the real ulster supporters are like, having met many of you in real life. Fantastic bunch and can't wait to have pints tomorrow




Advantage Leinster

Undone by what one person has said?? Come on now. If you have met many great fans in real life, then judge Ulster rugby on that.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:MrsP - out of interest, who is the "us" and who is the "them" in this? That was my argument, about why there is an "us and them" in the first place, regardless of who's failing it is. I don't like viewing Ulster Rugby as being anything other than a community of rugby supporting fans. Whether they are from Ulster or not, whether they are black, white, or whether they are protestant or catholic. It makes zero difference to me who they are.

Rory,

I agree with you but I wasn't using those words to define sections of the community, just the individuals.

"Us" is anyone who feels like me and "Them" is Mr Gallagher and anyone who feels like that. It was a separation of attitudes to Ulster Rugby and nothing else.

It makes zero difference to me either!

Hoog wrote:Jasus rava its amazing how all the good work you've done in convincing a lot if us that ulster has changed, and then for it all to be nearly undone by ridiculas statements from clive



Don't worry Rav, I know what the real ulster supporters are like, having met many of you in real life. Fantastic bunch and can't wait to have pints tomorrow




Advantage Leinster

I assure you Hoog, I will defend yours and my rights to freedom till the day i die. I would like to draw your attention to my previous retraction.

Unfortunately the problem will always be that as a divided community there will be sections we will never be able to reach. That is not, as MrsP suggests, our fault whatsoever. We can't really comment on the Antrim player in the article because we don't know his reasons. If might be familial, his parents might be from Cork for instance. It could be a cultural thing. For instance, in football I support Man Utd as my dad supported Man Utd when George Best played for them, and my grandfather supported them when Harry Gregg supported them. Does it make me 'despicable' for supporting an English side instead of my local side?

Unfortunately in Northern Ireland some people support teams because of politics. How many people support Rangers or Celtic purely on the basis of religious and communal labelling? I would suggest some people in the nationalist/republican community would never support Ulster and would support another Irish province purely on the basis of the partitionist divide and not wanting to associate themselves with a 'garrison game' that includes Northern ireland.

clivemcl wrote:I would like to draw your attention to my previous retraction.

Personally it was the "despicable" comment I had a problem with.

MrsP wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:MrsP - out of interest, who is the "us" and who is the "them" in this? That was my argument, about why there is an "us and them" in the first place, regardless of who's failing it is. I don't like viewing Ulster Rugby as being anything other than a community of rugby supporting fans. Whether they are from Ulster or not, whether they are black, white, or whether they are protestant or catholic. It makes zero difference to me who they are.

Rory,

I agree with you but I wasn't using those words to define sections of the community, just the individuals.

"Us" is anyone who feels like me and "Them" is Mr Gallagher and anyone who feels like that. It was a separation of attitudes to Ulster Rugby and nothing else.

It makes zero difference to me either!

Don't worry, I didn't think it made a difference to you! Sorry if you think I was implying that.

I agree with you, but I hope that those who feel like "them" will realise they are a PART of the community. We want them involved.

red_stag wrote:

clivemcl wrote:I would like to draw your attention to my previous retraction.

Personally it was the "despicable" comment I had a problem with.

Thats what i retracted

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Unfortunately the problem will always be that as a divided community there will be sections we will never be able to reach. That is not, as MrsP suggests, our fault whatsoever. We can't really comment on the Antrim player in the article because we don't know his reasons. If might be familial, his parents might be from Cork for instance. It could be a cultural thing. For instance, in football I support Man Utd as my dad supported Man Utd when George Best played for them, and my grandfather supported them when Harry Gregg supported them. Does it make me 'despicable' for supporting an English side instead of my local side?

Unfortunately in Northern Ireland some people support teams because of politics. How many people support Rangers or Celtic purely on the basis of religious and communal labelling? I would suggest some people in the nationalist/republican community would never support Ulster and would support another Irish province purely on the basis of the partitionist divide and not wanting to associate themselves with a 'garrison game' that includes Northern ireland.

And that is their choice, and their problem. We can't do anything to fix that. Good post.

clivemcl wrote:

Hoog wrote:Jasus rava its amazing how all the good work you've done in convincing a lot if us that ulster has changed, and then for it all to be nearly undone by ridiculas statements from clive



Don't worry Rav, I know what the real ulster supporters are like, having met many of you in real life. Fantastic bunch and can't wait to have pints tomorrow




Advantage Leinster

I assure you Hoog, I will defend yours and my rights to freedom till the day i die. I would like to draw your attention to my previous retraction.

Posted it before I saw your retraction




Advantage Leinster

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Unfortunately the problem will always be that as a divided community there will be sections we will never be able to reach. That is not, as MrsP suggests, our fault whatsoever. We can't really comment on the Antrim player in the article because we don't know his reasons. If might be familial, his parents might be from Cork for instance. It could be a cultural thing. For instance, in football I support Man Utd as my dad supported Man Utd when George Best played for them, and my grandfather supported them when Harry Gregg supported them. Does it make me 'despicable' for supporting an English side instead of my local side?

Unfortunately in Northern Ireland some people support teams because of politics. How many people support Rangers or Celtic purely on the basis of religious and communal labelling? I would suggest some people in the nationalist/republican community would never support Ulster and would support another Irish province purely on the basis of the partitionist divide and not wanting to associate themselves with a 'garrison game' that includes Northern ireland.

Can we put the premiership footy comparison to bed. We are talking about Ulstermen wishing Munster to beat Ulster, not wishing Mun Utd to beat Crusaders.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote: I would suggest some people in the nationalist/republican community would never support Ulster and would support another Irish province purely on the basis of the partitionist divide and not wanting to associate themselves with a 'garrison game' that includes Northern ireland.

I think the fact that you would suggest this is part of the problem in our society.

Maybe you should let people in the Nationalist and/or republican communities speak for themselves rather than assume to know what they would or wouldn't do and the reasons for it.

Ah, clive. Getting carried away and making us look bad. Please! I'm glad you've retracted your comments at least.

I thought that article was brilliant, a brilliant reflection on what Ulster are doing in terms of being a team for everyone in the nine counties. We have to be realistic. Sectarianism is entrenched on both sides of the community in Northern Ireland even if the situation is very slowly changing. Hardcore GAA fans have certain preconceptions about rugby and Ulster Rugby and it will take a while to break down those preconceptions, but the article reflects that we are doing that.

I'd love it if someone anonymously sent Barry McElduff MLA season ticket for next year in the post. He may be a hardcore republican and GAA head who perhaps had some strange notions about rugby a few years ago but he seems to enjoy watching the game. There's no better way to break down this silly barrier than to turn around and say "I appreciate you wouldn't have thought much about rugby growing up, but you're very welcome to come to Ravenhill and support Ulster. This is as much your team as it is ours."

I've gotten flak from other Ulster fans at times for saying people shouldn't bring the old Ulster Banner to Ravenhill or we shouldn't fly a British flag (apparently we've stopped that now, which I hadn't noticed) because we want to be as inclusive as possible to everyone. I feel that article validates those views. I'm glad Ulster are distributing lots of non-political flags for people to wave. We need to endorse a purely sporting identity which is not about nationality or tribal allegiance.

I'm confident that in 10 years, even more people will feel that way. I accept that some still don't and it makes me sad, but you won't win them over by railing at them or throwing around words like 'despicable'. Just keep quietly doing what we're doing and they'll come around eventually. The article in the IT could NEVER have been written before 1999. Given another decade and Ulster actively pursuing a status as a neutral side for everyone in the province I believe our support base will become more and more reflective of the general demographics in this part of the world. And that makes me very, very proud.

Anyway,

Who is going to be our new Back Rower?

And, most importantly, which foot does he kick with?

He did say some members of that community rodders, not all. And he is right about some members of that community. That is why some of that article does not sit right with me, and has a very "us and them" feel to it. We are all Ulstermen.

rodders wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote: I would suggest some people in the nationalist/republican community would never support Ulster and would support another Irish province purely on the basis of the partitionist divide and not wanting to associate themselves with a 'garrison game' that includes Northern ireland.

I think the fact that you would suggest this is part of the problem in our society.

Maybe you should let people in the Nationalist and/or republican communities speak for themselves rather than assume to know what they would or wouldn't do and the reasons for it.

There is no disrespect intended with my post and no need for condescension Rodders. I base that on reading studies and surveys, though I add the caveat that this was based on football not rugby. There is also a good study done on Protestant attitudes towards the GAA that has been highlighted by John Sugden and Alan Bairner, thought I think there was a problem with the survey sample being slightly unrepresentative. Anthony Bateman has a fascinating book on cultural attitudes to cricket which, given the 'class' of participants that play it, might hold some lessons for rugby. It was suggestion, not speaking as fact. Until a proper study is done it is impossible to say, but based on academic evidence I don't think it is going to be too far from the truth. Their comments on Irish rugby are enlightening, though a few years out of date now and could do with a revamp. I have heard that the UoU are going to launch a new study with research project and publication into this area, but with the campus move I'm not sure if this is going ahead.

So when I typed what I said Rodders it was a properly considered point, not a sectarian one as you are hinting at. You would do very well not to try and imply that sort of thing towards me in the future.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/heineken-cup/ulster-reaping-rewards-of-peace-as-gilroys-loss-to-gaelic-football-spells-trouble-for-leinster-3111095.html

On the same theme...

I wonder just how precious GAA types can be about ulster players not singing the national anthem when they will be sitting in their lovely new casement park, paid for by the British taxpayer.

I have no national anthem personally. I sing Ireland's call and that's it but such levels of hypocrisy really annoy me.

Interestingly the GAA v Rugby divide is not in any way confined to Ulster.

Let's just hope it closes everywhere. What a national side we could have eh?

About a year ago I took part in a survey for a Masters students thesis in Anthropology (or was it Sociology? Something-ology?) that suggested that traditionally unionist rugby fans in the North were much more likely to define themselves as Irish than non-rugby fans from the same background. Hardly groundbreaking but; Sport really is an incredibly powerful medium for bringing people together, and I hope Ulster rugby is something that can bring people together in this part of the world over the coming decades.

It'll take some going to undo the damage caused by the constant squabbling between the IFA and FAI and the perception of the Northern Ireland football team, but at least rugby is doing something positive!

Hook you used the word sectarian, not me but I'm stunned that you think that reading a survey or some research qualifies you to make such a sweeping and judgemental statement about a section of society that you do not represent.

You are also applying research on one sample of people on a specific area to another on a totally seperate issue.

They've paid their taxes Stand, they are entitled the benefits returned from the governments budget.

MrsP wrote:Interestingly the GAA v Rugby divide is not in any way confined to Ulster.

Let's just hope it closes everywhere. What a national side we could have eh?

One thing Aodhan Gallagher has a point with is GAA should be played in Methody. We excoriate him for not feeling rugby in Ulster represents him, yet he teaches in one of the biggest rugby schools in the province where GAA is definitely off the menu. I'm not saying he's right in his comments about Ulster Rugby, but for the big rugby playing schools to endorse GAA in P.E. would be a big step forward. If I have kids in this country in the future I really hope they can go to a school where they play GAA, Rugby and Soccer amongst others.

But as said before, the GAA have not made much effort to break down any barriers unlike Ulster Rugby.

Notch wrote: If I have kids in this country in the future I really hope they can go to a school where they play GAA, Rugby and Soccer amongst others.

A few years ago I did some voluntary work and sub teaching in a local integrated school and all the kids played Soccer, Rugby and GAA as part of their P.E. lessons.

That is the way forward in my opinion but until we have a fully integrated education system this will only ever happen in a small scale.

That is a wider issue though.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:But as said before, the GAA have not made much effort to break down any barriers unlike Ulster Rugby.

Have to agree with this.

Effort made to break down barriers in the last decade:

Ulster Rugby 8/10
GAA 1/10

clivemcl wrote:

Can we put the premiership footy comparison to bed. We are talking about Ulstermen wishing Munster to beat Ulster, not wishing Mun Utd to beat Crusaders.

I don't see the difference. Both are professional sports. People should be able to support whatever team they wish!

Notch wrote:I thought that article was brilliant, a brilliant reflection on what Ulster are doing in terms of being a team for everyone in the nine counties. We have to be realistic. Sectarianism is entrenched on both sides of the community in Northern Ireland even if the situation is very slowly changing. Hardcore GAA fans have certain preconceptions about rugby and Ulster Rugby and it will take a while to break down those preconceptions, but the article reflects that we are doing that.

I thought the article was pretty awful.
Take the opening paragraph:
"ORLA BANNON on how rugby is quietly going about
breaking down barriers of class up North, and especially where Ulster is
concerned, religion"
So the implication is that Ulster have a barrier especially concerning religion. The rest of the article seeks to damn Ulster with faint praise by implying that it is with some surprise that McElduff finds a lack of enmity walking round Ravenhill. Logan's comments at least add a tiny bit of balance but this typical one-eyed jounalism seeks to highlight Ulster as being different to the rest of Ireland because of religion rather than part of Ireland because of rugby.