Interesting?

Why is there no ladies masters played at Augusta? I am not championing the cause but I am
Surprised the politically correct brigade haven't convinced them to have a LPGA tour event there. Any thoughts ?

I hear the creaking sound of a can of worms being opened..........!

I know the Augusta members are fabelled to be the atypical 'old farts' but surely there must be newer members coming through with slightly more modern views on golf??

Why should there be?

Either a WUM or just very stupid...

Not a wum and not stupid either, just debating a point,The ladies have other majors why not the masters?

I think it's a very good question myself - and certainly not a WUM

Maybe we should be thankful gaelgowfer hasn't yet moved over from BBC 606 though

The ladies are good enough to play Oakland hills, Carnoustie etc etc! Why not Augusta? As I said at start I am not championing this but I am surprised no one has pushed for it to happen! The LPGA tour is huge in the USA and always looking for bigger tv audiences, surely a ladies masters would pull big crowds and tv spectators

Just out of interest, does Augusta have any lady members? I have a suspicion not (or maybe a token one). In which case I can't see the committee allowing a ladies' professional tournament.

Someone mentioned on the old 606 the other day that Augusta has "a handful" of lady members. Probably government officials or similar. I was going to suggest someone like Condoleeza Rice but on second thoughts....

Are Augusta really that much worse than Muirfield?

I am not clear what the current position of ANGC is on woman even setting foot on the premises out with masters week. It is the case that this sexism was not present at the founding of the club and it was only after the likes of Bobby Jones passed on that some members imposed these policies. I hate to think what the policy on black people was.

I have stated on 606 before having read the relevant legislation that muirfield breaks the sex descrimination act 1975.

"Discrimination in provision of goods, facilities or services.

(1)It is unlawful for any person concerned with the provision (for payment or not) of goods, facilities or services to the public or a section of the public to discriminate against a woman who seeks to obtain or use those goods, facilities or services—

(a)by refusing or deliberately omitting to provide her with any of them, or

(b)by refusing or deliberately omitting to provide her with goods, facilities or services of the like quality, in the like manner and on the like terms as are normal in his case in relation to male members of the public or (where she belongs to a section of the public) to male members of that section.

(2)The following are examples of the facilities and services mentioned in subsection (1)—

(a)access to and use of any place which members of the public or a section of the public are permitted to enter;

(b)accommodation in a hotel, boarding house or other similar establishment;

(c)facilities by way of banking or insurance or for grants, loans, credit or finance;

(d)facilities for education;

(e)facilities for entertainment, recreation or refreshment;

(f)facilities for transport or travel;

(g)the services of any profession or trade, or any local or other public authority."

Please tell me how muirfield who will not let women have the full use of facilities or become members can claim to be in breach of several of those conditions? They chose to provide the public with goods so they should be held to the same laws as everyone else.

Oh Christ I have opened a can of worms!!!

I too don't think they have female members at Augusta except a few as said 'government officials' (Hilary Clinton would kick the captain of ANGC in the balls or send a tomahawk or two their way, if she couldn't play a round with Bill in the thursday morning greensomes!!)

But should they have an LPGA event there???

I wonder if Barack is a member or mrs O?? Christ imagine the look on their faces as Mrs O sauntered through the bar!!!

My point is that it's not a pga tour event. It's a private invitational event at a private club. It's their decision how they allow their facilities to be used.


You might say why can the women play sunningdale old as an opwn venue but not the men.

Why not a mens Nabisco Major?

"Are Augusta worse than Muirfield?" - only in the sense that they run their own tournament whereas Muirfield hosts The Open Championship on behalf of the R&A. Whether that's worse I'll have to leave others to judge - oh hang on - my wife has just sworn. Apparently they are both beneath contempt!!

Have to say - I agree!

LondonJonnyO wrote: It's their decision how they allow their facilities to be used.

Not really they must do this within state and federal laws as well as respecting human rights. OR are you one of those if its a private club do what you want sorts?

McLaren wrote:

Please tell me how muirfield who will not let women have the full use of facilities or become members can claim to be in breach of several of those conditions? They chose to provide the public with goods so they should be held to the same laws as everyone else.

I think the word public is the key there - they're not open to the public, they're a closed, members' club.

Think of it the other way. Women are forcing a discrimination statement on mens golf and attempting to play in mens tour events. What would happen if a man tried to enter a womans event though?

Women can shout about equality but if you have a chicken between your legs you can't play in their games.

Equality and equal rights are essentially nonsense. If you own a thing you can do what you like with it. Augusta own everything in relation to the club and event. So they can do it their way.

McLaren wrote:

LondonJonnyO wrote: It's their decision how they allow their facilities to be used.

Not really they must do this within state and federal laws as well as respecting human rights. OR are you one of those if its a private club do what you want sorts?

Mac. If you think everything is open to everyone try to join gullane ladies. Or your local WI.

LJ you are missing the point on this one it isn't a discimination or invasion of mens comps by Michelle Wie types. I am saying why don't the ANGC members have a ladies invitational event.

Look up ladies golf invitational event. There have been a few. But they don't work. I would imagine as the ladies game isn't as balanced as the mens so there is less need to bring the elite from each tour together.


Besides. Its not as marketable.

LJ

Get real, clubs like that exist because today and throughout history there has not been a level playing field.

So why not level the playing field and go to let qualie?

Augusta own the naming rights 'The Masters' which is an independent invitational challenge between the top gentlemen players from around the world. It must be held at the Augusta national each spring.

I think maybe the ladies do have a version of this event and obviously called something different, probably due to sponsors. The membership of the National hold all the cards including TV rights and all advertising, even the press is by invite only and there's an official photographer who works for the National and they syndicate all photos worldwide. Its a well run cash cow, and they own it. Absolutely nothing to do with sexism, this is a historic event, and I believe the subject of a ladies event has been mooted a few times, but the membership have declined due to 1) lack of interest by the broadcasters as they only have so many slots for ladies and can't find enough sponsors who would swell the coffers to make it worthwhile and 2) The membership moan about not being able to play enough as it is due to preparations for the event.

Since we are talking about elitism in a roundabout way... The people from UK Uncut are in Canary Wharf today protesting about salaries and bonuses.

My purpose in life today is to wind them up. So it's Rolex, flashy cars and wads of cash being waved at them. Then we'll see how peaceful they are.

LJ, just imagine how much those protesters could earn if they put as much effort into their careers as they do into protesting. I certainly do not have the time to take out to stand about with placards on a Tuesday morning...

As for Augusta National, I'm pretty sure that it does not have any female members and is actually proud of that. As for the mention of Hillary Clinton above, an example of their strong stance on their views is that her hubby was refused a round at Augusta whilst he was president for being a democrat.

Hence my earlier question of this post being a wind up - a quick google into Augusta National's past behaviour will show why they will probably never hold a women's tournament...

Harrison they are meant to be starting at 4pm. Which to my mind is a very specific time which is designed to cause maximum disruption to everyone getting home in the evening.

Couple that with the location and the fact that just across the road is Tower Hamlets... Not a nice place... I expect there to be a fair few problems.

Last time this sort of thing happened there was chaos. We were chatting about the time a load of guys handcuffed themselves to the trading desks at the Bank of America in Aldgate. Those protesters basically made themselves unable to move on a floor of drunken traders who proceeded to give them a good kicking for their trouble.

LJ

Whether you like the individuals who will be protesting surely you support their cause?

Not even slightly Mac. I think they're a waste of time.

If you don't have top earners and the tax they pay then these fools won't have any money paid to them through their benefits.

LJ, I've a couple of guys in my office that were in the Royal Exchange a few years back when protestors broke in on mayday. They basically stood at the top of the escalator, the only way in, and beat the rudey poo out of the protestors as they come up.

Mac, really? Support their cause? The financial sector is the UK's major and pretty much only significant export and to discriminate against it because it is successful and good for votes is appalling and very short sighted by politicians not to mention dangerous for our future economy. You cannot honestly tell me that you believe that this whole recession is due to the banks?!? They were the catalyst but people borrowing too much money to live above their means is a far more significant cause. Add that to the previous government just employing people to make their stats look good and there we have the state that we are in.

The danger comes when the discrimination gets too much and global finance stays away from the UK, much like sports stars do because of our taxation of them.

oh god here we gooooooooo

supersixfive, The LPGA is huge!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, this tour is in desperate trouble, sponsors backing out and far few tournaments being played now than ever, this tour has failed to change with the times and expand her borders, now reaping the reward for doing so. The Kraft Nabisco is their Masters, same course each year, top players etc no need to invade Augusta, they need to go along the same lines as the WCG in the mens to raise their profile more

Super65

Are you Martha Stewart's secret lovechild?? :huh:

I think, if you look into it, you will find that a number of years ago there was an attempt to have a women's event labelled "Masters" [albeit not at Augusta National]. Clifford Roberts threatened legal action in relation to the use of the name Masters and that name was dropped.

I suspect that the same may apply nowadays if such an attempt were made again as I don't think Augusta National are slow to protect [what they regard to be] their position.

Wouldn't it be "Mistresses" anyway?

To be honest I think it's perfectly gentlemanly of the Augusta-powers-that-be even selling tickets to females.

D4s are you my secret love child?

Supersixfive wrote:D4s are you my secret love child?

Could be, what sort of naughtiness were you getting up to in the 60's??

I actually don't have a problem with all male golf clubs or "drinking clubs". If I wanted to form a club in my house and only wanted men to join me, is that illegal? If then it grows such that all those men cannot fit in my house and we decide to buy a larger property to accommodate us, that's OK too. If we then wish to play the occasional game of golf in the rather large back garden where's the problem? Some men wish not to associate with women - not my choice but there you go. There's nothing to stop women forming their own club and excluding men or allowing men or whatever they want.

Likewise I have no issue with men or women only clubs, if that's where people choose to be members then its just that entirely their choice others don't have to like it they can simply choose not to join or play their!

As for a ladies Masters they have their version in the Kraft Nabisco played at same course every year. As for ladies competing in mens events personally I can't stand it, because even the pro women don't use the mes pro tees do in attempt for equality its not equal is it because effectively playing a shorter course than the guys are.

There is nothing wrong with having a mens tour and a womens tour and keeping them separate. They work perfectly fine that way. I love watching PGA tour events, ET events, LPGA and LET events likewise, I actually think most Am's could learn a lot more from the female pro game than the mens but that doesn't mean they should compete together

I enjoy playing golf with the wife and our club have the odd mixed event where I'm sure there are a few blokes moaning. They have their own QC events/comps etc and Mrs Doc is on the ladies comittee and also the main club comittee, so no sexism at our club or by the majority of members. No way would I accept a mixed event though if it were a QC .....

To back up something Mav mentioned earlier; I played Victoria (Vilamoura) last year for the first time, and was surprised at the tee box layout (Like the 39-steps) This course is long so as we were playing with the ladies in a 4-ball, we blokes used the yellow tees, but the lady pro tees were 2 in front of us. Juniors, ladies, seniors, lady pro's, junior mens, yellow, white then champs. The ladies were almost out of sight, but the lady pro's were well ahead of the yellows. Now I wish I was as good as a lady pro, but to be anything from 30 to 80 yards behind does seem a bit daft

Doc it seems you get my point exactly I quite like the odd bounce game with lady members its good fun and nice to be on the course playing a game with someone you wouldn't usually get a knock about with but I've not played a mixed competition because of something that happened when I was a junior.

We had a junior league match against another club (Rochester and Cobham) and I was the low man off 3, my partner was. 6 handicap our opponents a young lad also off 6 and a young lady who was off 3 like myself, but she was also a member of the full ladies county side and was due to start playing for the national under 18's side. So she was a good player (she was also very easy on my 16year old eyes). Anyway, us boys had to play from the back tees but she was to play off the ladies competition tees which meant on average at all but 2 par 4'd she had 80yards advantage, on the Par5's a 100yard advantage and even at a couple of the par3's a 40yard advantage. Totally not playing the same course yet pitted against each other head to head.

I remember on one of the shorter par 5's I hit a monster drive about 60yards ahead of the other 2lads but still 120yards behind the young lass who hit her own monster drive. I remember that day because it was the only time ever as a junior I shot a gross under par score and lost! I was -4 for the full 18 my best round at that time off the back tees and was beat 4&3. The only reason we played the full 18 was we were always made to play out to the end to ensure the away team got to enjoy the whole course and not walking in!

So from that day I've stuck to my mixed rounds just being bounce games. Now I understand this young lass maybe the exception when it comes to most ladies that frequent clubs, but still think if equality is to allow females into full mens events or vise versa then the same tees should be used or handicaps adjusted for that event

Maverick wrote:So from that day I've stuck to my mixed rounds just being bounce games. Now I understand this young lass maybe the exception when it comes to most ladies that frequent clubs, but still think if equality is to allow females into full mens events or vise versa then the same tees should be used or handicaps adjusted for that event

Mav - I thought that handicaps WERE adjusted in those situations - with the so-called equalisation shots (what used to be called "courtesy shots" in the bad old pre-PC days).

As I understand it, from the situation you describe, the girl should have been playing from her own tees, but to the mens' stroke indexes. Then, a comparison is made between the SSS for the mens' tees and the SSS for the ladies' tees. If the ladies SSS is more than the mens' then the lady gets that many "equalisation shots"

So, if the mens' SSS is 72 (par 72) and the ladies' is SSS 73 (par 72) then the assumtion is that if both a man and a woman played to their handicap, the man would score 36 points but the woman would only score 35 points - so the lady is given one extra shot to equalize matters.

From what you describe it would be interesting to know if the ladies' SSS was LOWER than par and the mens' - in which case, would the equalization process work the other way? I've never heard of it happening though which makes me think it really does hark back to the old pre-PC days and they really are rather patronizing "courtesy" shots

At that course I was a junior at, Par, SSS and SI's were exactly the same as the mens was just a different length course, and there were no rules at that stage to equalise things out in the junior leagues and it has in all honesty left a bad taste. Even if there were some way of equalising it, it wouldn't have mattered because her and I were playing effectively off scratch I gave her no shots and I too received none, her partner and mine each received their allowance which was at the time 3/4 of the difference. Pure factor was that she was too good for the ridiculous difference in distance she received.

I'm not to worried now maybe one day I'll venture back into mixed comps but we'll see what the future holds