The French proposals - Good or Bad for Rugby?

by Feckless Rogue Tue 22 May - 17:39

An article on espn

http://www.espnscrum.com/france-top-14-2011-12/rugby/story/164426.html

Change for the better?
Ian Moriarty
May 22, 2012

Less is more - but try telling that to the owners of some of France's biggest clubs who seem set to transform the European rugby landscape.

As cup finals go, last Friday's Amlin Challenge Cup Final wasn't exactly the most inspirational marketing for what is purported to be the biggest and bestest professional league in world rugby. The hand-wringing from both punters and pundits that followed Biarritz' narrow victory over Toulon at the weekend was completely understandable, especially in light of the Heineken Final that followed it on Saturday. It was, if truth be told, an awful advertisement for French and European rugby.

The age-old rivalries between Top 14 sides have always been one of the great pulling factors of the French Championship but taken out of context those intense encounters are often lost on neutrals. Last Friday night at the Stoop, we had two committed teams who threw everything at each other yet virtually everybody bar Biarritz supporters will want the game erased from the memory permanently.

But was Friday night's game a damning indictment of where French rugby is, as claimed by some commentators, or was it a one-off to be set aside and forgotten? There is certainly enough circumstantial evidence to believe the standard of rugby in the Top 14 is struggling this season thanks to the extended World Cup season. Yet nothing has ever been black and white in French rugby and despite this year's slog there are plenty who believe there should be more games, not less.

For some time now, there have been murmurs of discontent bubbling away across the French rugby landscape: too few Top 14 games, not enough TV money, too many European games, not enough control, not enough voting rights... Now comes the news that French (and English) clubs are giving serious thought towards refusing to re-sign the Heineken Cup accords in 2014, for which they have to give two years notice. The reason, they say, is that they should have more clubs in the world's best club tournament, to the effective detriment of sides in Scotland and Italy.

And there's more. Not content with potentially destroying the balance of a great European competition, there are those like Racing Metro owner Jacky Lorenzetti who sound as though they want to destroy their own club competition too. Lorenzetti recently told Midi Olympique that a return to sixteen teams was absolutely vital.

"There are too few games," said the multimillionaire. "The players whose teams don't make the final phases have maybe three months of holidays. That's nuts. A day at work for a rugby player is three, maybe four hours of training, four days a week. You've got to work more. They're not lazy but they're not Stakhanovistes (hard workers) either who are physically prepared to endure such a rhythm."

While a return to sixteen clubs in the next year or so is regarded as unlikely by those in the know, Lorenzetti's thoughts on the matter are shared by several other club presidents, broadcaster Canal+ and by Ligue National de Rugby (LNR) Pierre-Yves Revol. Money is the key and if those club presidents can't raise the extra cash by playing more games, other cash cows must be looked at, which is where the Heineken Cup comes in.

It seems like only yesterday that the French clubs were banging their shoes on ERC's boardroom table looking for a bigger slice of the European pie. Back in 2007 it was voting and share rights that captured Gallic imaginations but this time around it seems more serious. At the heart of the matter is the proposal from the French clubs and their English colleagues to limit the number of teams from the RaboDirect Pro12 to eight, thereby increasing their own. Taken in isolation, the proposal has its merits as it would undoubtedly make the Celtic league a more competitive and viable construct. However I'm pretty sure French and English clubs didn't have the health of Celtic and Italian teams in mind when they dreamed up the idea and therein lies the rub. More places for French sides equals more competition money and eventually, more control.

That would be all well and good if we thought European rugby would be well looked after, but given the recent utterances of powerful men such as Monsieur Lorenzetti of Racing Metro and Mourad Boudjellal of Toulon, how likely is that going to be? Would it mean more matches like last Friday night? Would it mean having more big name players like Matt Giteau and Carl Hayman (playing his 34th game of the season) playing well within themselves? How long before the French public stop watching?

Rugby's calendar is in a mess - of that we are certain. Here in the northern hemisphere though we are faced with the prospect of unions and clubs having to work together so that days like Saturday can continue to be enjoyed. And that, sadly, is a depressing thought.

by Artful_Dodger Tue 22 May - 17:42

Too few games??

Sounds like the French are going to hit the self-destruct button so they can make more money.

More English and French clubs in the Heineken - teams who are ranked in the bottom half of their leagues, sounds like lambs to the slaughter against Irish provinces.

by Feckless Rogue Tue 22 May - 17:44

I have no problem with letting more of them qualify for the HC. I do have a problem with them restricting access to the competition from whole nations.

by gowales Tue 22 May - 17:46

This is a very opinionated piece by Moriarty.

To be honest i don't think it sounds so bad. Wrapping up the pools and quater finals before the 6 nations, having pro 12 qualification based on league positions and putting more teams in the Amlin, i'm pretty much all for.

by Artful_Dodger Tue 22 May - 17:47

Yep no Scottish or Italian teams is actually going to damage their main aim - making more money out of European rugby. Italy is a massive market to be tapped into and they are getting good, Treviso steadily improving and Italy have beaten France recently.

Destroying the growth of Italian rugby will be bad business.

by gowales Tue 22 May - 17:48

Italy maybe a massive market to tap into, but with regional franchises like Aironi it's never going to happen.

by Artful_Dodger Tue 22 May - 17:49

So you would be happy with no Italian teams in the HC then?

by gowales Tue 22 May - 17:52

You said that Italy is a massive market to be tapped into and they would be losing money by ignoring them, i'm teling you that is simply not the case.

Where did i say that i would be happy with no Italian teams in the HC.

by Artful_Dodger Tue 22 May - 17:55

You said above you were all for there changes, which this season would of meant not Italian teams in the HC as neither of them finished in the top 8.

From the article that you were "all for"

At the heart of the matter is the proposal from the French clubs and their English colleagues to limit the number of teams from the RaboDirect Pro12 to eight

= No Italian teams, wouldn't affect the Irish we'd still have 4 teams, Wales would still have 3, Scotland would have 1 - big losers being Italy.

Italy is a massive market to be tapped into - but more in the long term than short term.

by gowales Tue 22 May - 17:57

I think playing in the Amlin and potentially winning it could do wonders for the Italian teams.

by gowales Tue 22 May - 17:57

I hope they don't make another god awful plastic franchise/region though, just stick to the clubs they've got.

by Artful_Dodger Tue 22 May - 17:58

In other words you would be happy with no Italian teams in the HC as I asked above.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Tue 22 May - 17:58

Ultimately the French want a smaller, less time consuming HEC, so that they can have a bigger domestic comp (which has always been more important to them anyway).

I expect that they'll concede ground on the number of teams entered, as long as they can get the total competition down to 20 teams.

Personally (as a neutral) I wouldn't mind seeing a competition made up of
The previous year's HEC semi-finalists (4 teams)
The previous year's Amlin finalists (2 teams)
plus (selected on League performance)
3 French teams
3 English teams
2 Irish
2 Welsh
1 Scottish
1 Italian
and a couple of wildcards determined by ERC rankings

The Amlin includes the 4 "dropped" spots, but there is no more "dropping to the Amlin" after the HEC group phase.

That way all countries are guaranteed representation and good performances at HEC level are rewarded.

by gowales Tue 22 May - 18:00

Artful_Dodger wrote:In other words you would be happy with no Italian teams in the HC as I asked above.

Look i don't think it really makes that much of a difference anyway. Until they have another rugby team that actually appeals to the fans and is competitive.

by Artful_Dodger Tue 22 May - 18:03

Can't see it Kiwi - if what you said happened, there would be 3 English teams in the HC out of 20 the same number as Ireland, I really dont think thats what they want.

by whocares Tue 22 May - 18:07

it's not even clear in France that they will expand their league to 16 teams.

roughly half of the clubs are in favour of a top16 because of revenues (an extra 2 home games) or by fear of relegation. the other argument is to increase rugby exposure which would require it to be played accross the country (not 90% in the south).

for it to happen it would probably mean less french teams playing in the HC and AC as otherwise, it would be lambs to the slaughter against Irish provinces (to quote artful_dodger). so KRD view is probably a good guess of what coudl happen.

by Feckless Rogue Tue 22 May - 18:17

Kiwireddevil wrote:
I expect that they'll concede ground

I'm sure you're right Kiwi. The sounds from the erc are that they're open to changes but not hot on the idea of some nations not getting a place in the top tournament.

It's interesting that the article seems to imply there's a link between the poor quality of the Amlin final at the weekend and the large number of matches that the French play. The reason they want more games is entirely for money and not necessarily good for the well-being of players and the good of rugby.

I dream of a Europe-wide NFL style competition for everyone. But I know the French LOVE the Bouclier de Brennus and that will never change.

by gowales Tue 22 May - 18:21

Feckless Rogue wrote:
Kiwireddevil wrote:
I expect that they'll concede ground

I'm sure you're right Kiwi. The sounds from the erc are that they're open to changes but not hot on the idea of some nations not getting a place in the top tournament.

It's interesting that the article seems to imply there's a link between the poor quality of the Amlin final at the weekend and the large number of matches that the French play. The reason they want more games is entirely for money and not necessarily good for the well-being of players and the good of rugby.

I dream of a Europe-wide NFL style competition for everyone. But I know the French LOVE the Bouclier de Brennus and that will never change.

That's right you do dream because that would never work across a continent, especially with international rugby. The only reason the NFL and AFL works is because there aren't conflicting international interests.

by Feckless Rogue Tue 22 May - 18:29

Probably true gowales. I can dream though can't I.

by gowales Tue 22 May - 18:33

Yes you can Feckless, i also do a lot about how rugby could be. Sorry if i came across as aggressive, i didn't mean to by any means

by Shifty Tue 22 May - 18:56

I don't mind the Rabo direct teams losing places, provided the teams earn those places on merit, in which case im confident 3 of ur teams will always make the top 8 teams.

however i do have an issue with english and french teams getting more spaces, in which case id prefer teams from other countries to get them.

by gowales Tue 22 May - 18:57

English and French teams would stay at 6 teams a piece

by Artful_Dodger Tue 22 May - 19:01

Doesn't add up, why bother reducing the number of teams to 20 and therefore exclude Italy from the tournament if everybody else ends up with the same number of teams anyway - purely so the French can make a minor change to their own league?

by HammerofThunor Tue 22 May - 20:17

by formerly known as Sam Tue 22 May - 20:43

A smaller hec forcing competition in the rabo a more interesting amlin with the additional non-qualifying hec rabo teams with the suggested third tier competition for the developing nations. Would make a far more interesting and more easily marketable set if European competitions.

by Artful_Dodger Tue 22 May - 21:17

formerly known as Sam wrote:A smaller hec forcing competition in the rabo a more interesting amlin with the additional non-qualifying hec rabo teams with the suggested third tier competition for the developing nations. Would make a far more interesting and more easily marketable set if European competitions.

You really think it will force more competition in the Rabo? With all but one of the Rabo teams qualifying Ireland had 4 provinces in the HC, if only 8 teams qualified we would have still have 4 teams qualifying next season...

Think some people are dreaming if they think cutting Rabo teams down to 8 is going to mean the provinces are more stretched - Leinster won the HC and finished 10 point clear at the top of the Rabo for god sake. The only people cutting the rabo's representation down to 8 is going to hurt is the Scottish and Italians - wait and see.

by justified sinner Tue 22 May - 21:31

What everyone always misses on these threads is that that the HEC, ACC are determined by the national unions not the leagues or clubs. If the French / English want to walk away then so be it, but it would be hugely detrimental to the sports growth and therefore detrimental to their own long term interest. Think strategically guys, the people negotiating this do and establish bargaining positions as part of that strategy.

by HammerofThunor Tue 22 May - 21:48

The clubs hold equal shares in the competition as the RFU.

Also if the ERC is desolved the English and French clubs will form a joint competition. If this generates similar money (50:50 split rather than 6 ways) then why would they care that much? Only reason to stick with the ERC is the stability of it rather than the risk of a new competition.

by justified sinner Tue 22 May - 22:00

Good point, but that's still short term thinking. If the sport fractionalises we miss the opportunity to grow it globally and therefore maximise the revenue going forward. The guys negotiating this aren't stupid.

EDIT: OK maybe looking at some of the rugby administrators we have seen maybe they are. I also have no comment to offer on the potential politics

JS

by Artful_Dodger Tue 22 May - 22:13

HammerofThunor wrote:The clubs hold equal shares in the competition as the RFU.

Also if the ERC is desolved the English and French clubs will form a joint competition. If this generates similar money (50:50 split rather than 6 ways) then why would they care that much? Only reason to stick with the ERC is the stability of it rather than the risk of a new competition.

To be honest I dont think the English and French would care about an England and French cup never mind the rest of Europe. Big loss of revenue if anything and deeply damaging to European rugby.

by Shifty Tue 22 May - 22:13

Basically it would mean 4 of the following Dragons, Connacht, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aironi (or whatever they are called next season), and Treviso missing out on the competition.

the top 8 teams of a 12 team league would qualify, not to hard for the top 3 Irish and Welsh teams.

by jeffwinger Tue 22 May - 22:29

The English and French might care about an ERC collapse if the resultant Anglo-French competition generated as much interest as the similarly well-conceived Anglo-Welsh version. 17% of a large revenue is better that 50% of nothing.

I'll admit to playing devils advocate there, mainly because I'm convinced it would never come to such a situation so speculation is just that.

I believe there does need to be a slight change in the HC and Amlin competitions though. It is basically a good model but tweaks are needed. Reducing to 20 teams would be good, keeping the quality up and removing some dead wood. The issue of where to take the 4 places away is tricky but I'd go for 1 each from England and France and 2 from the Rabo, and make the qualification from the Rabo more based on league standing. Yes I know the places are distributed by the unions not the league, but it could easily be altered so that the places are distributed to the unions based on their clubs league positions, and I would still insist on a minimum representation for each union. This wouldn't affect teams like the current Leinster side at all, a dominant side would not be handicapped.

Empowering the Amlin would be good as well, primarily by dropping a few more top sides into it, and possibly giving HC places to 2 or 4 teams rather than just winners. Too many of the big Rabo clubs hold the Amlin in undeserved contempt. It is a good competition, enabling exposure to good level European competition and everything that this entails (travel, less familiar conditions, fiercely partisan crowds etc), serving as a stepping stone to success in the HC and allowing developing nations involvement.

by **Notch** Tue 22 May - 22:32

jeffwinger wrote:I know the places are distributed by the unions not the league, but it could easily be altered so that the places are distributed to the unions based on their clubs league positions, and I would still insist on a minimum representation for each union. This wouldn't affect teams like the current Leinster side at all, a dominant side would not be handicapped.

Isn't that the current situation?

by jeffwinger Tue 22 May - 22:44

Sorry that is worded badly. I think at the moment the places are automatically distributed to the Irish (3), Welsh (3), Scottish (2) and Italian (2) unions. Then any additional places based on ERC ranking/winning HC/Amlin go to the appropriate union. The way I would have it there would be greater emphasis on Rabo league placing and these allocations would not be automatic. An example being top 5 in the league qualify regardless of country, plus any additional places needed to make up a minimum requirement of say 2,2,1,1 respectively. that way teams would need to scrap to come in the top 5 of the league each year or risk not qualifying. As I say, it wouldn't affect sides like Leinster or Munster who always achieve this anyway.

by Artful_Dodger Tue 22 May - 23:22

Determining how many teams the rabo should have in the HC is one things Jeff - other trying to tell the Rabo how they allocate those places is sheer arrogance and won't happen.

by HammerofThunor Tue 22 May - 23:24

The Anglo-Welsh cup was generating a lot of money for the clubs via sponsorship. For very little effort. Once it got moved to the international window to allow the Jeff to played at other times it dropped a lot. I've never seen the figure but it was said at one point that the clubs were getting from it than from the ERC (I find that hard to believe but the clubs wanted to keep it for the money). IF (and this is a big if) an Anglo-French cup was created in the ashed of the ERC then I don't doubt for a second that it would generate decent revenue for the clubs. Whether it would have the long term sustainability of the HEC is another question.

I can't see the HEC going but it'll be interesting to see who caves in more.

Dodger, making suggestions isn't arrogant.

by jeffwinger Wed 23 May - 0:14

I don't mean to sound arrogant but surely it cannot remain that some sides qualify automatically without having to earn their place. I would assert that assuming automatic HC qualification could be construed as arrogance.

I believe EVERY league should lose some HC places to facilitate a reduced but higher quality competition. This is the point some people fail to grasp in a lot of these threads. It is not a case of big mean English and French bullys taking away all your places and keeping them for themselves. It is every union making concessions for the greater good and integrity of the competition.

I think there should be a minimum involvement in the HC for each 6 Nations union, but if the four Celtic unions decided against this I would not argue. How a union or league distributes its places is ultimately up to them. All I am saying is that there shouldn't be so many places available.

by formerly known as Sam Wed 23 May - 9:20

You really think it will force more competition in the Rabo? With all but one of the Rabo teams qualifying Ireland had 4 provinces in the HC, if only 8 teams qualified we would have still have 4 teams qualifying next season...

Well the initial outline by the French was that each league would have 6 places and then their would be two additional spaces for the winners of the HEC and Amlin. Watch the Amlin and Rabo become more interesting as teams like Edinburgh have to compete in their league for a full season to gain entry to the elite competition. Might not effect Leinster or Munster as they are strong but there would be less of the throwing an academy team out for some of the other clubs. Let's face it the Welsh teams need a shot in the arm in terms of fans so it might help them.

by red_stag Wed 23 May - 10:02

Jeffwinger, I'd be happy to reduce places on the following basis.

Currently 24 places: 6 English, 6 French, 3 Irish, 3 Welsh, 2 Italian, 2 Scottish, 1 Heineken Cup winning nation, 1 Amlin Cup winning nation. Seedings in place.

Proposed 16 places: 4 English, 4 French, 2 Irish, 2 Welsh, 1 Italian, 1 Scottish, 1 Heineken Cup winning nation, 1 Amlin Cup winning nation. Open draw (no seedings) but must be 1 Eng + 1 French per pool.

We could see the following pools next season with this. These are the teams who would be in:

Toulouse, Northampton, Leinster, Glasgow

Clermont, Saracens, Scarlets, Montpellier

Toulon, Harlequins, Munster, Treviso

Castres, Leicester Tigers, Ulster, Ospreys

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 23 May - 10:12

jeffwinger wrote:I don't mean to sound arrogant but surely it cannot remain that some sides qualify automatically without having to earn their place. I would assert that assuming automatic HC qualification could be construed as arrogance.

I believe EVERY league should lose some HC places to facilitate a reduced but higher quality competition. This is the point some people fail to grasp in a lot of these threads. It is not a case of big mean English and French bullys taking away all your places and keeping them for themselves. It is every union making concessions for the greater good and integrity of the competition.

I think there should be a minimum involvement in the HC for each 6 Nations union, but if the four Celtic unions decided against this I would not argue. How a union or league distributes its places is ultimately up to them. All I am saying is that there shouldn't be so many places available.

The problem is, jeff, that it's not about LEAGUES. Take Scotland as an example, the SRU has two places to allocate - the first one goes to the winner of the 1872 Cup, the second one to the next highest team in the league in which the pro-districts compete - now, that league could in tehory be the Swiss U12 girls netball league if that's what the SRU chose. So when Scotland also had the Borders and the Caledonian Reds, we still only had two teams in the Heino. Equally if we bring back a third pro-district, we'll still only have two teams as it currently stands. But it's our business how WE allocate those two places

by red_stag Wed 23 May - 10:14

Exactly Asbo. Ireland used to say that regardless of results, placings or players - it would ALWAYS be Connacht who were excluded from Heineken Cup.

They could turn around tomorrow morning and say that Leinster are not allowed in next years Heineken Cup due to having an ugly jersey.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 23 May - 10:16

red_stag wrote:Exactly Asbo. Ireland used to say that regardless of results, placings or players - it would ALWAYS be Connacht who were excluded from Heineken Cup.

They could turn around tomorrow morning and say that Leinster are not allowed in next years Heineken Cup due to having an ugly jersey.

And that would be fair enough imo!

by Islingtonv2 Wed 23 May - 10:30

Is this not all just posturing? I doubt we'll see a reduction of teams in the HEC since the default position is always to expand a tournament not contract it - see super rugby, rabo, WC, 6N's for recent examples.

The french aim is to get more money and by making outlandish threats they strengthen their bargaining position since they know the smaller unions reley heavily on HEC revenue. I'm betting a tweak to the revenue distribution in favour of French and English teams will be the result rather than full scale re-organisation or collapse of the current structure

by red_stag Wed 23 May - 10:35

Islingtonv2 wrote:Is this not all just posturing? I doubt we'll see a reduction of teams in the HEC since the default position is always to expand a tournament not contract it - see super rugby, rabo, WC, 6N's for recent examples.

The french aim is to get more money and by making outlandish threats they strengthen their bargaining position since they know the smaller unions reley heavily on HEC revenue. I'm betting a tweak to the revenue distribution in favour of French and English teams will be the result rather than full scale re-organisation or collapse of the current structure

Oh it is completely but sure we can dream cant we! thumbsup

by TrailApe Wed 23 May - 10:35

I've put good for Rugby.

I think the whole NH season needs to be restructured and if it takes the French being 'french' to do it, then good luck to those pesky frogs.

We need to have the season blocked out and structured such a way that the domestic leagues don't clash with the AI's, the HC benefits from strong first choice sides (well you can always hope) and the domestic league games become crucial to future admission to high level competitions.

Now I'v got no axe to grind here, I'm a Falcons fan and the HC is just something that happens to others, (but my Wife always likes to watch those tanned Frenchies in the Amlin - quite hunky apprently) but we do need to sort out our season - if for nothing else to make sure our internationals do themselves justice in the AI's and are not too knackered for the Summer Tours.

by formerly known as Sam Wed 23 May - 10:41

I'm betting a tweak to the revenue distribution in favour of French and English teams will be the result rather than full scale re-organisation or collapse of the current structure

Is the current structure the best thing for European Rugby though? The Amlin is a weak back up competition that would be much strengthened under the French proposals, the HEC would be streamlined and more elitist so more exciting games in the pool stages and the third tier competition for the developing nations would bring them into the ERC fold and hopefully boost their clubs in playing and revenue terms.

All of that will be more marketable due to more tv revenue (because of more countries involved playing at appropriate levels) and more sponsorship as more nations are opened up to the three tier tournament which is very much competitive at all three levels (rather than just the HEC).

by Islingtonv2 Wed 23 May - 10:57

formerly known as Sam wrote:
I'm betting a tweak to the revenue distribution in favour of French and English teams will be the result rather than full scale re-organisation or collapse of the current structure

Is the current structure the best thing for European Rugby though? The Amlin is a weak back up competition that would be much strengthened under the French proposals, the HEC would be streamlined and more elitist so more exciting games in the pool stages and the third tier competition for the developing nations would bring them into the ERC fold and hopefully boost their clubs in playing and revenue terms.

All of that will be more marketable due to more tv revenue (because of more countries involved playing at appropriate levels) and more sponsorship as more nations are opened up to the three tier tournament which is very much competitive at all three levels (rather than just the HEC).

Really? TV companies want more games in the premium competition - they are after quantity not quality. The Amlin second tier will always be that no matter how they try to revamp it and it will always be a tough commercial sell since its after the lord mayor's show. If ESPN picked up the rights to it and all Amlin games were shifted to Thursday nights i envisage a Channel 5 - Europa league style stigma being attached to it which would just drive away commercial partners. Meanwhile TV is paying less for HEC because of reduced number of games and the third tier, while good for development purposes, generates no interest whatsoever.

by formerly known as Sam Wed 23 May - 11:21

TV companies want more games in the premium competition - they are after quantity not quality.

No, they are after more people choosing to take up subscriptions. They didn't give a monkeys how many games there are or how high in quality they are they only care about the increase in the revenue.

Making the Amlin a worthwhile and winnable cup will make people watch it, numbers will rise in viewing because games other than French B side A vs French B side B will be entertaining. Connacht vs Gloucester in the quarters people will watch, certainly more than people will watch Connacht getting humpered pillar to post by the Tolouse second team in the HEC. Selling the rights to someone other than Sky will bring the competition alive, whilst it's Sky's second European competition there will be no interest. Make it worthwhile and then flog it to ESPN and they will make a song and dance about it.

and the third tier, while good for development purposes, generates no interest whatsoever

So people in Georgia, Romania and Russia who like their rugby but couldn't give a poo about the HEC because it means nothing to them (unless an international is playing for a French side) won't tune in to watch a Georgian team take on a Romanian team in a competition they have a decent chance in? The third tier is good for development and opens the option of flogging stuff to the rest of Europe. It'll never be a cash cow but it'll at least pay for itself and sow the seeds for future financial growth.

by red_stag Wed 23 May - 11:33

I agree with Sam,

Say you take the principle that I worked off earlier

red_stag wrote:Jeffwinger, I'd be happy to reduce places on the following basis.

Currently 24 places: 6 English, 6 French, 3 Irish, 3 Welsh, 2 Italian, 2 Scottish, 1 Heineken Cup winning nation, 1 Amlin Cup winning nation. Seedings in place.

Proposed 16 places: 4 English, 4 French, 2 Irish, 2 Welsh, 1 Italian, 1 Scottish, 1 Heineken Cup winning nation, 1 Amlin Cup winning nation. Open draw (no seedings) but must be 1 Eng + 1 French per pool.

We could see the following pools next season with this. These are the teams who would be in:

Toulouse, Northampton, Leinster, Glasgow

Clermont, Saracens, Scarlets, Montpellier

Toulon, Harlequins, Munster, Treviso

Castres, Leicester Tigers, Ulster, Ospreys

You could have an Amlin Cup with similar teams:

4 English, 4 French, 2 Irish, 2 Welsh, 1 Scottish, 1 Italian, 1 Georgian, 1 Spanish

Racing Metro, London Irish, Gwent Dragons, Madrid Rugby

Stade Francais, Bath, Connacht, Bucharest Oaks

Biarritz, Sale Sharks, Aironi, Edinburgh

Bordeaux Begles, Exeter Chiefs, Cardiff Blues, Gloucester Rugby

That would be a great tournament.

by whocares Wed 23 May - 11:42

there is clearly a lack of attractive / interesting games in the AC and a lot can be done to improve its marketability :
we could to stick with various italian, romanian and spanish teams and why not include Georgian or russian project teams but please get rid of the the french/english teams that are at the bottom of their league and will likely play their B side most of the time (look at Agen, Bordeaux-Begles, Bayonne and brive this year) and replace them by quality mid-table teams that want to have a shot at HC qualification through it (teams placed between 5 and 8 in their leagues) and play it seriously. then I am sure it will attract more viewers.

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So are the French proposal's good or bad for rubgy?