Has the Jeff any future in its current form?

Once again, English rugby is smearing itself in excreta. After the shameful meanderings of the RFU board and the RWC shenanigans, the Jeff now for the second time in ten years has (subject to LW's appeal) denied access to the elite division based on rules that deny access that incumbents can't meet.

Some people call for a 14-club league whereas I call for a reduced one to ten.

As it stands, the Jeff is popular judged by attendances and TV audiences whilst England's national performances are not inspiring.

Possibly of most concern to (some) Jeff supporters is the drift into mediocrity at the European level.

Age-grade success at the national level via the academies is one thing. But it has to be balanced by domestic club competition.

Shamefully my club is likely include at least ten overseas players in the playoff finals. That to me represents a lack of any form of joined-up thinking - not of my Tigers, but the Jeff/PRL.

Shamefully my club is likely include at least ten overseas players in the playoff finals

Yet about eight of that team have played for the Tigers academy and there will be 7 England internationals in the starting 15 if Flood starts. The foreign players in the squad are all high quality internationals in their own right.

The Jeff has issues but it is improving it's England representation and the English first team won the 6N last year and came 2nd this year. That's not bad going. Nothing is perfect and the massive balls up regarding the Championship Playoffs is unfortunate and something the RFU need to urgently address.

This is your proposed 23 Sam:

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Re: Quins v Tigers

Post by formerly known as Sam Today at 9:17
So boys and girls let's have some team predictions. I'd imagine Tigers will go:

1.Ayerza*
2.Chuter*
3.Cole*
4.Skivington
5.Parling*
6.Mafi*
7.Salvi*
8.Waldrom
9.B Youngs*
10.Flood*/Ford
11.A Tuilagi*
12.Allen*
13.M Tuilagi*
14.Agulla*
15.Murphy*

Subs 16.T Youngs, 17.Mulipola*, 18.Castro*, 19.Kitchener, 20.Newby*, 21.Harrison, 22.Twelvetrees, 23.Hamilton*.

Im sick of hearing rubbish about the Jeff. ...

Its doing fine....

What happens IF an English side wins the hc and England win the 6n next year...will everyone fickle person then be declaring it the best league in the world!!!????

Yep and all of whom are quality internationals. Apart from Waldrom who now counts as English in the eyes of the IRB thanks to his Gran. I'm loathe to think of Geordan and Alesana as anything other than local lads, they are Leicester boys they just don't play for England. Murphy joined the academy at 18 and is now 34 and Alesana joined the academy at 19 and is now 31.

I only have issue when very average foreign players arrive for a short term pay day, show no interest in the ethos of the club and deny a young English player a spot in team. Of those players only Hamilton could be accused of that and that would be very harsh as he's been a Tigers a few seasons now and really has done everything he can to be a proper Tiger, the fans like him so he must be doing something right.

Staunton? Oh sorry, of those players.

HammerofThunor wrote:Staunton? Oh sorry, of those players.

Grindal? Oops - he wasn't there either

Staunton? Oh sorry, of those players.

A stand in whilst we waited for Billy and George to develop. I think Staunton has started about five games in total this season and will be leaving this summer. Whilst not offering much in terms of quality he is an international.

Grindal? Oops - he wasn't there either

He's average and uncapped but English. Which is apparently better than being a foreign player with both quality and international recognition.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Im sick of hearing rubbish about the Jeff. ...

Its doing fine....

What happens IF an English side wins the hc and England win the 6n next year...will everyone fickle person then be declaring it the best league in the world!!!????

Simple answer 'Yes, of England win the 6Ns and a Jeff side win the Amlin/HEC then people will start to bang on about it being the best world tournament'.


I don't really see too much of a problem with the league as such. I think maybe instead of ring-fencing the league if the top championship side (after the normal season, no playoff) play against the bottom Jeff side, home and away, with the winner entering the Jeff the following season, and the loser playing in the championship. That way there is no complacency (sp) for the Jeff teams (that ring-fencing could cause), and for a championship team to get promoted they have actually got to prove they are worthy to join the league.

I would like to see a either a fully pro league below with all the clubs meeting entry criteria, or if there are too few clubs able to do this somehow expanding the league to allow them in the top flight, or reducing its size to make a viable 2nd tier.

The biggest changes I'd like to see now are getting rid of the LV to free up some weekends and make sure that Pro rugby is not played at the same time as internationals, i.e. if England play on a Saturday Club fixtures are played the Friday or Sunday.

I would like to see a either a fully pro league below with all the clubs meeting entry criteria

That already is the Championship. The issues are that the Championship is a major step up and that is represented by the annoying requirements. The Championship clubs are professional clubs, there may be a student or two in there or the occasional academy product who are part timers but in the main they are pros.

The biggest changes I'd like to see now are getting rid of the LV to free up some weekends and make sure that Pro rugby is not played at the same time as internationals, i.e. if England play on a Saturday Club fixtures are played the Friday or Sunday.

Get rid of the stupid HEC place for the winner and force the LV Cup into being what it was supposed to be, a development competition. Most teams treat it as such anyway. Only three players over the age of 24 allowed in each match day 23 would be a good rule to introduce. Moving pro rugby around internationals is not functional. For the LV Cup what do you do if England play on the Saturday and Wales play on the Sunday? Move every LV Cup game to the Friday night? That's just asking for logistical problems.

Ten sides would help. It is supposed to be the elite level - not a finishing school. Scrap the playoffs and close the International windows for the Jeff. They can be used for tin-pot cups.

I think England would be better off with 2 professional leagues of 10 teams - They have the capacity for this IMO and it would help with a 2 up and 2 down format.

Sam,

Thats why I'd get rid of LV, no Welsh teams means it doesnt matter when Wales play in 6n.

As for the Championship being Pro, its not when teams play in Parks.

RubyGuby wrote:I think England would be better off with 2 professional leagues of 10 teams - They have the capacity for this IMO and it would help with a 2 up and 2 down format.

I almost agree Ruby: I'd have 1 up one down with a ring-fence for one year for each new incumbent.

And any club wanting promotion demonstrating it's H&S credentials and a reduced a 5000 capacity by 1st Jan.

To repost

An interesting quote "London Welsh chairman Bleddyn Phillips, a partner with the law firm Clifford Chance, expressed his dismay at the decision ahead of tonight's game and hinted that the club will, as expected, launch an appeal within the two-week window afforded them.

"I was surprised and disappointed by the decision because as you are aware we have signed, legally-binding agreement with the Kassam Stadium and Oxford to play our games in the Premiership next season should we win on the pitch," said Phillips. "

http://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/story/164493.html

If this legal-beagle signed a binding contract with Oxford instead of a binding conditional letter of understanding consequent on winning the p-o final, you have to get suspicious as to what he's up to.

https://www.606v2.com/t29499p50-london-welsh-ground-decision-by-rfu#1244914

Go NFL.

16 clubs (including Bris, Leeds, Pirates and LW) split in to two conferences.

All teams in each conference play each other home and away and then top two from each go through to knock outs as usual.

Relegation is decided every 3 years based upon more than league standing (finances, home support, EQP's etc).

Keep the LV as Sam say's. Extend the European squad budgets for clubs if required.

I like that idea yappysnap.

And I think that is the way forward, it soreads the game nationally and limits fixtures. I'd still get rid of the LV or limit to English Clubs, and have either a proper ringfencing, or straight up/down relegation each year.

beardybrain wrote:Sam,

Thats why I'd get rid of LV, no Welsh teams means it doesnt matter when Wales play in 6n.

As for the Championship being Pro, its not when teams play in Parks.

Or near-empty stadia beardy don't you think?

Oversized grounds make even the most passionate of teams and fans look a bit pathetic and uninspiring. And they feel like it.

I'm iffy about developing WR to 30000 as it's probably going to have at least 5-10000 empty seats for standard games.

I agree, the idea of the Mad Stad being expanded fills me with Horror, its already a souless bucket for most LI games and is no way to encourage new fans. Sarries movin gto a 10,000 capacity Stadium with the option of Wembley for big games seems the right approach for most teams.

I suspect Leicester could fill an expanded Welford Road for 75% of the season, and if youve got 20-25000 already then it's not going to make much difference to the atmosphere, IMHO.

To a large extent beardy, I think that the extension of WR would reduce the sales of the bread-and-butter season ticket sales.

There must be a hefty proportion of Tigers supporters who buy STs in the fear of missing big matches. Like every team, don't take a great deal of official attendances figures.

The knowledge that an additional 6000 tickets available might make the marginal ST purchasers less inclined to go for it.

I would think that there is a future to the Premiership.

I remember reading not long ago that only Tigers and Saints were making a profit. Every other team was recording a loss.

Now, 12 months down the line Exeter Chiefs and Gloucester have joined this group.

Making each Premiership team a profitable entity has to be the first step. They can then start investing in the future with new players, infastructure and initatives designed to make rugby more attractive and bring in new fans.

red_stag wrote:I would think that there is a future to the Premiership.

I remember reading not long ago that only Tigers and Saints were making a profit. Every other team was recording a loss.

Now, 12 months down the line Exeter Chiefs and Gloucester have joined this group.

Making each Premiership team a profitable entity has to be the first step. They can then start investing in the future with new players, infastructure and initatives designed to make rugby more attractive and bring in new fans.

Easy words Staggy - lets look at them:
new players - Academy players with a gentle incline into the club - or off-the-shelf complete products?
infrastructure - An exceptionally expensive proposition unless you (like the Tigers) are fortunate to be a huge beneficiary of a will.
initiatives - Frankly you'd need to explain further. The much vaunted London double-headers for instance may provide sell-outs at HQ for instance (at micro prices), but do they generate bigger crowds at home games?

when is the TV deal up for renewal and will it go down or keep going up.

The sponsership money and TV money will have a big say in what happens.

Is it the PRL or the RFU that deciedes changes, I assume its the PRL

yappysnap wrote:Go NFL.

16 clubs (including Bris, Leeds, Pirates and LW) split in to two conferences.

All teams in each conference play each other home and away and then top two from each go through to knock outs as usual.

Relegation is decided every 3 years based upon more than league standing (finances, home support, EQP's etc).

Keep the LV as Sam say's. Extend the European squad budgets for clubs if required.

The problem with this is the clubs will only be guaranteed 7 league home games a season, where as they are guaranteed 11 at the moment. That will mean losing a lot of money in gate receipts etc, when most clubs are losing money as it is.

If we were to organise things into conferences, I would split it into four geographical regions and pair them together differently each season. So in the first season you could pair the London and South West Divisions together as one 10 team league and do the same with the Northern and Midlands divisions. Then change the next season. It would freshen up things each year whilst ensuring that teams get to play local derbies as well. There would need to be a fund to ensure that we help teams improve their grounds as necessary though.

Northern

Newcastle
Leeds
Sale
Doncaster
Rotherham

Midlands

Leicester
Northampton
Worcester
Nottingham
Bedford/ Moseley

South West

Gloucester
Bristol
Bath
Exeter
Pirates

London/ South East:

Wasps
Harelquins
London Irish
Saracens
London Welsh/ London Scottish/ Another South East Team

Once the infrastructure of those clubs are sorted we could start to offer help to the likes of Plymouth Albion, Bedford, Fylde (just below the championship), Jersey and Coventry ect with a view of adding them to relevant regional division.

Is it the Jeffs turn to be knocked now?

Cumbrian wrote:If we were to organise things into conferences, I would split it into four geographical regions and pair them together differently each season. So in the first season you could pair the London and South West Divisions together as one 10 team league and do the same with the Northern and Midlands divisions. Then change the next season. It would freshen up things each year whilst ensuring that teams get to play local derbies as well. There would need to be a fund to ensure that we help teams improve their grounds as necessary though.

Northern

Newcastle
Leeds
Sale
Doncaster
Rotherham

Midlands

Leicester
Northampton
Worcester
Nottingham
Bedford/ Moseley

South West

Gloucester
Bristol
Bath
Exeter
Pirates

London/ South East:

Wasps
Harelquins
London Irish
Saracens
London Welsh/ London Scottish/ Another South East Team

Once the infrastructure of those clubs are sorted we could start to offer help to the likes of Plymouth Albion, Bedford, Fylde (just below the championship), Jersey and Coventry ect with a view of adding them to relevant regional division.

That's certainly the most interesting idea I've seen on the subject. As long as there is some structure for clubs moving up I'd be happy with it. Some sort of franchise thing over a few years maybe.

Id see that kind of model having more validity to replace the LV and Championship competitions, being used by the Jeff clubs reserve and academy players and played alongside or before the Premiership.
Indeed you could even look at a form of regionalisation where 8 big franchises get to dual register players to smaller clubs in those leagues then call them up for the senior competition.

But no way could it replace a proper Jeff played between vaguely equal clubs unless the plan is to wreck the existing businesses and drive all the investment out of club rugby.

profitius wrote:Is it the Jeffs turn to be knocked now?

Yeah apparently the competition only broke two attendance records this year.