Shane Williams is the greatest player ever.

Gareth Edwards was good.
Campo scored loads of tries.
Wilkinson kicks a good dropgoal and has a great tackle.

Etc etc..

From what I've seen over the past 15 years nobody has, is or is going to be better than Shane Williams.

Chris Cullen.

Ben Cohen

Ben who?

Didn't Ben who retire about 10 years ago or something? Didn't Shane who just scored 2 tries winning his 4th league title at the age of 35?

If he is the best player in your opinion, then good on you

Kahn Fotuali?

biltongbek wrote:If he is the best player in your opinion, then good on you

I didn't say that, but isn't every player that's the "best ever" because of someone's opinion?

I suppose then, your title is misleading.

I think the OP is a little excited - Shanes a welsh legend - that will do.

I think the OP was looking for a few more bites...

Shane Williams maybe the best/ greatist player that has ever played for Wales.

But the best ever?

No. not by a long shot.

Shane Williams was very good at what he did but in his era McCaw, Carter, Wilkinson, O'Driscoll and a few others have been better. He was still a very good player, would Wales have won the slam with him instead of Cuthbert? I doubt it.

majesticimperialman wrote:Shane Williams maybe the best/ greatist player that has ever played for Wales.

But the best ever?

No. not by a long shot.

Gareth Edwards.

Wales' greatest

And was voted the greatest ever rugby player by players from all nations.

One of the best individual runners ever, maybe. That's where it ends. Jason Robinson was a superior version of the same type of player. Similar abilities with ball in hand but Robinson better in all other aspects of the game.

Whether or not he's the best ever player is down to oppinion, but he has as good a reason as any to be considered a World great rather than just a Welsh great. People will praise him a lot more in 10 years time when they can look back at him without the bias.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think the OP was looking for a few more bites...

welsh legend but not the greatest player ever.

How can you quantify the best ever player anyway?

I think it is an impossible task and totally subjective.

You can't be wrong with opinion. It's like arguing that there's a pain in my leg.

Is there a 'best' player?

In truth, no, there isn't. First you have to slot them into numbers as you can't compare the merits of a 15 to the merits of a Hooker...

.....; slot them into their numbers...find the best out of the numbers and then try to do the impossible again - comparing players who bring different skillsets in a game and saying the one who kicks the points is better than the one who buries his head in a scum most days. It's undoable.

So we're left with that simple solution - favourites. Yes, there are players that catch the eye because they do the beautiful stuff that the eye likes to catch if it can, but there will always be an argument about 'best' and so many variables that create one that we're never going to agree.

Shane Williams scored tries, often so easily that he made the game look a might too simple! Shane Williams was a great player - a real star of the era he played in. That's my opinion...but yes, there'll be others to compare to him in the future because that's what we'll all continue to do - compare and contrast and champion our favourites.

sugarNspikes wrote:You can't be wrong with opinion. It's like arguing that there's a pain in my leg.

Yes you can be....and no there's not!

Earl the pearl rose The best player in my opinion and which im entitled to just like the OP

Good player. Always wanted to see him get hit really hard by a big winger, but unfortunately, most of the time he was too good at evading this. Dinky player and good for wales. Robinson for England was on a par though wasn't he?

EBOP wrote:Good player. Always wanted to see him get hit really hard by a big winger, but unfortunately, most of the time he was too good at evading this. Dinky player and good for wales. Robinson for England was on a par though wasn't he?

I seam to rember shane Horgan Mullering him a few times. But one thing i liked about him is he went and worked at aspects of his game beefed himself up worked on his defence

tecphobe wrote:

EBOP wrote:Good player. Always wanted to see him get hit really hard by a big winger, but unfortunately, most of the time he was too good at evading this. Dinky player and good for wales. Robinson for England was on a par though wasn't he?

I seam to rember shane Horgan Mullering him a few times. But one thing i liked about him is he went and worked at aspects of his game beefed himself up worked on his defence

Damn, missed the Horgan hits. Nah, fair play to him, handled himself well amongst much bigger opponents and more than held his own and scored a skinful of tries. I can understand the welsh pride in him, nothing wrong with that.

Sorry, well off topic here, but check out these sickeningly big hits from the weekend by mutu'u https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFsXflfeVkc&feature=youtube_gdata_player

SimonMannix?

A great player no doubt, a great Welsh winger even less doubt. I wonder though. A great broken field runner, in the mold of Cullen and Robinson, but what about other skills. How was he on defence, how does he stack up against other players during his playing duration.

My first question is he played for a long time, but hard was it for him to make the team. He started 3 out of 9 possible Lions tests, so it doesn't imply he was a certainty there. He played a lot of Welsh tests, but who was he up against. The likes of Daffyd James, Mark Jones and Gareth Thomas hardly read a who's who of world class wingers. Even the addition of George North and Dhane Halfpenny doesn't set the heart racing.

So would he be an automatic selection for your side. Would I have picked him for the AB's. I have to admit, as much as I like the player, the answer is often no. I don't think I would have picked him over Lomu, Jeff Wilson or Umaga early in his career, or Howlett, Sivivatu or Rokocoko for much of the rest of it, or even the likes of Corey Jane, Kahui or Isreal Dagg towards the end.

Much of rating is down to the phenominal number of tries he scored over his career. He did score a lot. Unfortunately mostly against the like of Italy, Japan and Scotland (9 each) and few agianst many of the bigger nations (e.g. NZ, England and France (1 each). One of reasons for his record is the shear number games he's played. In terms of his strike rate (tries/game) he's behind a number of players during his playing career (e.g. Caucaunibuca, Ashton, Howlett, Gareth Williams, Mortlock, Sivivatu, Rokocoko) and not far ahead of many others who have played a greater percentage of harder games.

In other words, as good an attacking wing as, its pretty hard to argue he is undeniably the greatest on anything other than emotional grounds.

Williams, if i'm not wrong has a better scroing ratio than Robinson, who is more often than not used as his comparison.

i know other wingers have a better scoring ratio, but they've either played for dominant teams or played against second class opposition.

For me Shane is a world great, not only for the tries he scored but for the ones he created, the excitement he caused and overall the hope he brought.

Whether you like it or not, stats show he's one of the best try scorers in the world, and your eyes will tell you he's one of the most entertaining.

He'd partner Campo in my best ever XV anyday.

Not sure how you could set about quantifying this. How could you ever say, for example, that Shane Williams was a better player than Martin Johnson, John Eales or Dylan Hartley.

Amazing player of course and will go down as one of the Northern hemisphere's best attackers. Up there with Robinson and others.

To whoever said that opinions can't be wrong - well that depends on the type. If you're talking about questions of taste then you're right, but opinions about matters of fact can be very wrong objectively.

My fav winger never played for the Lions only had 22 caps but scored some awesome trys stand up simon Geoghan

And in reply to Blackcanelion, you can't just be an average player with a lot of caps and end up as 3rd top try scorer. Yes, he scored more tries against weaker opposition but that's agiven. A good hammer will still smash glass easier than it breaks stone.

The fact of the matter is that he still scored, and more to the point created, a lot more tries against stronger opposition than most wingers.

For his size his defence is second to none, no matter how good/bad you think Banahan is, it takes a lot to stop him from close range. And it's not just a one off, i remember him stopping O'Brien (maybe Heaslip) over the line and catching a crucial ball over a wingers head (it was a Scottish winger in the '10 six nations, i'm way to drunk to find out who)

The point is, he's one of the best all round players to play the game, argue if you will, but facts are facts, people hate him purely because he's so good, in ten years he'll be hailed as a legend.

Blackcanelion summed it up for me, from an AB fans perspective, and applies to many other so-called worlds best. Would they make my team? Generally no, and not just because we had an 'adequate' player ourselves, but because we generally have an equivilant world class player of equal, if not better quality. If I was SA, I'd have Habana in his day, if I was French I'd have what's his name (dominici?), im AB and I'd have howlett, sivivatu, rococoko, etc. Those are some big names to stand head and shoulders above. To say he did, is a little bit one-eyed. Still, Williams was good and I understand welsh pride in him. Punched well above his slight weight.

People go on about the Banahan incident far too much. For one thing he still made 7 yards in the tackle, for a second it was a high tackle somehow, and thirdly it doesn't really make sense to say Banahan did terribly but williams did brilliantly. One or the other really.

Williams is/was completely amazing, but it has nothing to do with that one tackle.

ebop im not welsh i'm Irish the greatest compliment i can give to shane willams is that by the time he retired he didnt have a weakness in his game worked on his defense , under the high ball and his decision making to be a great all-round player. Now i don't think hes the greatest ever but a great of the game definitely

To be honest it's probably harder for someone from New Zealand or any of the trinations to truely apprieciate how good Shane was. The fact of the matter is that you expect your wingers to score a lot of tries because you've always had good teams that make it easier for wingers to score tries, hence why most of the top try scorers are from the tri-nations.

The amazing thing about Williams was that he scored so many tries (second only to Campo in top tier rugby) on the back of what was largely a poor team through the past decade, and created so many more tries in the process.

Without trying to sound condesending, real rugby fans will realise that Shane Williams would have walked into any team in his prime. He was world player of the year, as voted be seasoned proffessionals, has scored against every major nation, and is respected by all wingers playing the game. However, if anyone thinks that have a better oppinion than the likes of Habana on wing play, then who am I to argue?

Shane Williams is undoubtedly a Great Player,but the GREATEST EVER? and that includes ALL positions presumeably.Well by that provision he patently isn`t,would he be an automatic choice.For a Lions,Bok,AllBlacks,or Aus side.NO
Stu Wilson,Bryan Williams,Ron Jarden,Sivivatu,Rocokoco,Howlett,Lomu, Jeff Wilson,Ugamala,Campese, To name a few would be before him,Dewi Bebb,JJ Williams,Tony O`Reilly,old Heinz 57,Peter Jackson all better than him in my opinion.

Hmm think Gerald was better than him as a player but Shane is certainly Wales greatest finisher. The two of them would get in on the wings in a greatest ever. Shanes strike rate is much better than Bebbs try every three games. I think weve seen the last of a great player no question.

Its all subjective as Biltong says but for me Edwards followed by Michael Jones are the two best players of the game Ive seen at internationl level. David Bishop could have been if only he hadnt been such a headbanger, but I loved watching him play even when it was the whites getting beasted by pooler.

Apologies, I didn't mean to blow off Shane's skills and feats, he was undoubtedly great, no doubt. Even I can see and admit that, and I know bugger all. Blackcanelion said earlier, his record against SH was not so great, perhaps a blemish on the worlds best? Also, the worlds best may be expected to fashion something miraculous against such opposition, and score more individual tries. Some of the great wingers have fashioned some solo tries over the years and using a vast range of skills (kick/chase/swervy hips/power, etc). Why did we not see this against SH? Because his talents were shut down and he could not shine, where a world best possibly could.

I agree with much you say. However, the OP indicated he was the greatest winger. He's a player you pay to go in see, even if he's in the opposition. You wait with baited breath when he gets the ball in space to see if he can unlock the opposition defence. For that reaso he has scored a lot of tries and justifiably rated as a great winger. The question is: is he the greatest.

I'm just pointing out, that:
1: he's not an automatic choice for many peoples national squads over the last 11-12 years.
2: that a large percentage of his tries are against 2nd/3rd tier opposition.
3: that's he's held a place in his team for a long time, but that competition for the spot often wasn't world class.

There's much more I could say. For instance an essential part of wing is defence. Sides sought him out and exposed him on defence (The Ab's certainly did). We expect a lot from our wingers. The reality is, it is not Williams try scoring ability that would negate him as the best winger in my book. He lacks an alround game, in comparision to a number of other players, and his strengths to score and set up other players is exceeded by others.

My intention isn't to denigrate him. In my perspective, whilst he's great, there are a number of other players who I'd have instead. I don't think he would have made the 2003 Blues backline that had a three quarter line of Muliaina (centre), Caucaunibuca (wing), Rokocoko (wing) and Howlett (fullback) with Rico Gear in the reserves. Given that I can't see him making this club squad I'm obviously going to have trouble rating him as the greatest.

CurlyOsp wrote:And in reply to Blackcanelion, you can't just be an average player with a lot of caps and end up as 3rd top try scorer. Yes, he scored more tries against weaker opposition but that's agiven. A good hammer will still smash glass easier than it breaks stone.

The fact of the matter is that he still scored, and more to the point created, a lot more tries against stronger opposition than most wingers.

For his size his defence is second to none, no matter how good/bad you think Banahan is, it takes a lot to stop him from close range. And it's not just a one off, i remember him stopping O'Brien (maybe Heaslip) over the line and catching a crucial ball over a wingers head (it was a Scottish winger in the '10 six nations, i'm way to drunk to find out who)

The point is, he's one of the best all round players to play the game, argue if you will, but facts are facts, people hate him purely because he's so good, in ten years he'll be hailed as a legend.

When one looks at the number of tests on the wing that Williams has played and the number of tries he has scored, I cant even imagine an All Black or wallaby in the 2000s being able to equal half those numbers, but is that really the same as saying he (Williams) is twice as good a winger as any All black or Wallaby wing???

18 of his 58 were against Japan and Italy but he has also done ok against SA and Oz, Scotland being another 9'er.

Can't imagine what Lomu would have done in the 4 matches that Williams had against Japan!

Bullsbok wrote:Earl the pearl rose The best player in my opinion and which im entitled to just like the OP

Yep, he certainly was a Star.


























A falling star.

Simply, Williams is a great of the game. As an Irish fan i really enjoyed watching him and have a very high respect for him. Thomas Castaignede once said, 'trying to catch him on the rugby field is like trying to pick up that fish you have caught that is flapping about in your boat' it gave me a laugh at the time but its pretty apt. He was very difficult to catch and had speed and skill to not only score tries but set up a huge amount as well.

I like that billy, it is how I saw him as well, out of nowwhere he would get ball with just a smidgeon of space and be off, he is very quick off the mark and it gave him many breaks from a standing start.

He played 8 tests vs Australia and scored 8 tries including a hattrick.
He played 8 test against SA and scored 3 tries.
He played 5 tests vs the All Blacks and scored 1 try.

Someone said he scored most of his tries against "lesser opposition" but looking at his record against Australia, then he wasn't that shabby.

What is interesting though is the number of games he played against SA and NZ, there were 24 tests for Wales in the time Williams played for Wales, but he only featured in 13 of them. Not sure if there were injuries involved or whether the coaches at the time didn't select him.

Yup, agree, think its fairly unanimous that Shane was a great of the game, can't argue with that It's a suitably broad enough claim, and is usually only used for a select few that meet unanimous approval by fans/pundits from all sides. I've never seen 'worlds best' be successfully applied to any player without some heated debate. Surely the term 'rugby great' is enough and should be left at that.

A flappy fish is quite a funny but apt description, and he scored a few against oz, that helps.

Great stats there Biltong, I'm assuming that's not including the 2 he scored against SA for the Lions?

This thread was always intended to russle a few peoples feathers, to suggest any one player is the best is rediculous, but he'd certainly be up there in most peoples "best wingers" category.

No sorry Curly, I only looked at Wales.

There have been better wingers.
There has even been better Williams'

JJ for example.

I think it was me. It's 6 against the Wallabies and 5 against the boks (I think I said 6 originally). They are good stats and he is a great winger, but even these stats aren't out on their own. I agree with your comments on the one of the greats. It's sufficently broad to include many players various supporters like.

EBOP wrote:Yup, agree, think its fairly unanimous that Shane was a great of the game, can't argue with that It's a suitably broad enough claim, and is usually only used for a select few that meet unanimous approval by fans/pundits from all sides. I've never seen 'worlds best' be successfully applied to any player without some heated debate. Surely the term 'rugby great' is enough and should be left at that.

A flappy fish is quite a funny but apt description, and he scored a few against oz, that helps.

Shane Williams was an outstanding players - probably does deserve the accolade great but in response to the thread title - Not even close he wouldn't even make the top 30 (at least).