Where do todays Super Middleweights rate on this list?

Where do todays Super Middleweights rate on this list?

This is an old article and its just before Calzaghe vs Kessler. Its by Ring magazine writer Steve Farhood.


Top Ten: Super Middleweight

Steve Farhood rates the leading fighters in the relatively short history of a division turned bigtime mainly to European boxers

A question that has puzzled philosophers dating back to Socrates, Confucius, Aristotle, and Don King: How can a division that has flaunted world titlists such as Sugar Ray Leonard, Thomas Hearns, Roy Jones, Iran Barkley and James Toney be dominated by fighters from the UK and the rest of Europe?
The super middleweight class is 23 years old, and there have been 41 different champions, of which only 13 have been American.
The heart and soul of the super middleweights have been the fighters who committed to the division, made or at least solidified their reputations at 12st, and scored their most significant triumphs at the weight. For multi-division titlists like Leonard and Hearns, super middleweight was a mere pit stop. But Joe Calzaghe, Chris Eubank, Nigel Benn and Steve Collins turned a division into a prime battlefield.
On 3 November in Cardiff, Calzaghe will clash with fellow unbeaten Mikkel Kessler in a unification bout featuring titlists with a combined record of 82-0. The outcome will impact the pound-for-pound rankings, the super middleweight rankings and the all-time division rankings.
At a press conference announcing the fight, I asked both titlists to identify the best super middleweight of all. Calzaghe said he was number one, with Roy Jones second. Kessler said he was number one, but acknowledged that he'd have to beat Calzaghe to prove it.
Here, then, from a writer on the wrong side of the pond (Farhood is American), are the Top 10 super middleweights in division history.

1 ROY JONES

Jones occupies the highest perch for three reasons: 1) He won his share of the title by masterfully outboxing James Toney, who at the time was ranked second, pound for pound; 2) He made five defences, all by stoppage, and never lost at the weight; 3) He won the title at age 25 and vacated at 28, or to put it more simply, he reigned when Roy Jones was Roy Jones, a breathtaking, unique, overwhelming talent.
Toney aside, Jones's opposition at super middleweight wasn't memorable; his victims were Bryant Brannon, Vinny Pazienza, Antoine Byrd, Tony Thornton and Eric Lucas. Nonetheless, his performances were special. Against Paz, he won a round without absorbing a single blow.
A bout vs fellow titlist Nigel Benn would've been intriguing, but at that point in Jones's career, he wasn't going to lose to Benn or anybody else.

2 JOE CALZAGHE

A 10-year title run and 20 successful defences is the stuff of legends, and the Welsh southpaw is still rolling. Should he convincingly defeat Kessler, I'll place him above Jones.
To place the numbers in perspective, consider that among today's titlists, Calzaghe's reign is seven years longer than that of the runners-up, lightweight Juan Diaz and strawweight Yutaka niida.
Calzaghe has been uneven. He's suffered several injuries, struggled through mediocre performances, and bested forgettable challengers, including Will McIntyre, Rick Thornberry and Tocker Pudwill. Moreover, 18 of his 20 defences have come in the UK. But the positives are sparkling: He won his first title by dethroning an itimidating presence and established titlist in Chris Eubank, rose from a devastating knockdown to stop Byron Mitchell, and schooled Jeff Lacy, who was 21-0 and labeled a mini-Tyson.
At this point, Calzaghe is defined by his dominance over Lacy, who is dismissed as having been overrated only because of the thoroughness of Calzaghe's victory. If the left-hander defeats Kessler, we'll have to reconsider his credentials for the second time in 20 months.

3 NIGEL BENN

With "The Dark Destroyer", there was balance: A former belt-holder at middleweight, Benn followed nine successful defences at 12st with losses in three consecutive title bouts. Title fight wins over Mauro Galvano (twice), Lou Gent and danny Perez don't score a lot of points, but his rematch defence against arch-rival Eubank (D 12), fought before 42,000 fans at Old Trafford, was the division's most significant bout to that point, and his tragic off-the-floor stoppage of fearsome puncher Gerald McClellan was as savage a bout as any in the '90s.
The majority of observers thought Benn nicked Eubank in their 1993 unification showdown. In fact, a point deduction for punching low cost Benn the verdict.

4 CHRIS EUBANK
Sadly, what McClellan was to Benn, Michael Watson was to Eubank. In one of the best fights of the decade (and one of the most dramatic turnarounds in history), Eubank won a vacant title by rising from the first knockdown of his career and immediately dropping Watson. He finished his rival early in the next round, and Watson, severly injured, never fought again.
Eubank mad 14 successful defences. Like most long-reigning titlists, his resume includes some forgettable challenges (Mauricio Costa, John Jarvis, Sam Storey), but his draw with Benn and his points win in Germany over former and future titlist Graciano Rocchigiani, who was 35-0 at the time, elevate him over almost all other super middles.
It was before Calzaghe's title-fight win over Eubank that the division developed its reputation as a British stronghold. And even though they fought each other only once at the weight, Eubank and Benn are responsible.

5 JAMES TONEY
It can be argued that at his best, Toney was a better fighter than both Benn and Eubank, but his stay at super middle was relatively short, and his horrendous points loss to Jones deserves penalty.
What to make of Toney's title-winning stoppage of Iran Barkley? "The Blade" had twice beaten Hearns, but had also suffered a first-round KO at the hands of Benn. That aside, Toney, who always struggled to make 12st, defended against Tim Littles, who was 24-0, and comprehensively defeated Prince Charles Williams, who had reigned with distinction at light-heavyweight.
Suffice to say that when we consider Toney's career in its entirety, only a small portion of the focus is applied to his days in this division.

6 STEVE COLLINS
Timing is essential, and for that reason, the Irishman, despite having twice beaten both Benn and Eubank, ranks below them.
Collins caught Eubank toward the end, and both his wins over Benn, the result of injury (First fight) and curious surrender (rematch), were less than comprehensive. The back-to-back losses were the last fights of Benn's career.
One other thing: As tough as Collins was, he wasn't the fighter his more celebrated rivals were.
Collins made seven successful defences. Remove the three that came against Eubank and Benn and his challengers (Cornelius Carr, Neville Brown, Craig Cummings) were underwhelming. He did, however, retire with the belt, something neither Eubank nor Benn can claim to have done.

7 SVEN OTTKE
The German never lost a fight (34-0), but don't even suggest comparisons with Rocky Marciano, which would be grotesque and absurd.
So how does a titlist make 21 defences, retire with two belts, and rank only seventh? Lots of reasons. For one, Ottke never defended outside of Germany. That's a lot of home cooking, which partly explains four wins by split or majority decision. For another, there's nothing special about Ottke's list of challengers. There are some quality wins (Byron Mitchell, Charles Brewer, Mads Larsen, Glen Johnson, Silvio Branco) , but nothing that suggests entry into the pound-for-pound listings.
And let's not forget that in December '03, Ottke was given an early Christmas present when he outpointed Robin Reid.

8 FRANKIE LILES
The long lefty makes the list based on longevity; he made seven successful defences and reigned for the better part of five years.
I'd argue that Liles is a bit underrated, partly because his style was often negative and partly because his reign overlapped with higher-profile titlists like Jones and Benn. Moreover, Liles lacked a defining fight. Instead, he was the consistent type, defending mostly against good fighters like his arch-rival Tim Littles.
Liles's best win came in his first defence, against fellow southpaw and two-division titlist Michael Nunn in Ecuador. Nunn had only two losses at the time.
That Liles, who was never the best fighter at his weight, cracks the Top 10 speaks volumes of the relative immaturity of this division. Twenty-three years isn't enough to establish a solid list of exceptional champions.

9 CHONG PAL PARK
The second titlist in this division's history, Park was an oddity, only because there are very few Koreans fighting in the heavier weight classes. (Interestingly, another Korean, In Chul Baek, reigned at super middleweight in the late-'80s.)
As a two time titlist, Park made a combined nine successful defences. Eleven of his twelve world title fights took place in his homeland. He was a strong super middle, but the quality of his title fight opponents was relatively weak. For instance, Roy Gumbs and Emmanuel Otti were both coming off back-to-back losses, Indonesia's Polly Pasireron was 4-2, and Jesus Gallardo was a novice without a notable win.
The only impressive name of Park's list of victims is Lindell Holmes, and Park barely edged the American, who was a future world titlist.

10 MIKKEL KESSLER
Obviously, "The Viking Warrior" will ultimatly be measured by his performance against Calzaghe. At this point, including him in the Top 10 is based more on talent and potential than accomplishment.
Kessler is only 28, and he's the reigning titlist of two organisations. He's made four successful defences, and while there have been no creampuffs, the level of his title fight opposition hasn't been sterling. For instance, Markus Beyer was 35, and Eric Lukas, who hasn't fought since, had gone 2-2 in his previous four bouts.
What makes Calzaghe-Kessler so appetising is not only the combined record of 82-0, but also the fact that they're so clearly the two best fighters in their division. Two European champions fighting for global dominance - just as it should be at super middleweight.

Source: Boxing Monthly magazine
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While I'm sure many will have had a different order for the list. What is your Top 10 now including the current fighters?

Fact that RJJ is @ #1 is enough for me to ignore this thread.

As much as i don't rate JC in terms of ATG he's #1 by a mile

How can the poor excuse of an author claim RJJ is #1 because "his performances were special" when fighting blind, retard3d nobodies is beyond me.

One win over Toney, a fat guy still struggling like mad to get to 168, doesn't even get him in the top 5 for me.

And post S6 he'll be ranked behind about another 3 fighters after they've finished the tourny/finished fighting Kessler, Bute in rematches etc etc

Shocking

And i missed the bit about being prior to JC v Kessler

Even still, rubbish article!

The article confuses me. We rate Jones Jr number one based not on his record, but on his abilities around the weight, then state Toney would probably beat Benn and Eubank, but his record is not as good.

We're either rating it on achievement or ability, not picking and choosing.

I'd rate Benn higher than Kessler any day of the week based on achievements, but I'd back the Dane to put him away every day of the week.

Toney above Collins at SMW? What a terrible article.

I agree Roy jones is no 1..if only for Joe's reluctance to look for big fights........

Agree that Benn should be high but not as high as Eubank for me.

Chong pal park???? Beat murray sutherland and who else???

I'd have Nunn top 10..

If Collins is 5 then we are talking about a garbage division over all aren't we..

I think Froch has to be pretty close to cracking the top five looking at this list. Compare his list of opposition to most of the above and it is pretty favourable.

Imo Frankie Liles is top 5, he beat Nunn, Sosa and Little at the weight, but there is a big gap between Calzaghe and Jones and the rest I think

But Froch, Bute and Ward all coul dstill breka top 5 list if they get some good wins in their next 3 fights

coxy0001 wrote:And i missed the bit about being prior to JC v Kessler

Even still, rubbish article!

Don't worry about it - It was only in big bold letters at the beginning of the article.

I personally wouldn't have Steve Collins in there or Chong Pal Park. Frankie Lilles seems low.

James Toney too high aswell.

Of todays fighters Kessler has done the most though if Andre Ward keeps winning he'll jump over him. (I'd like to see a rematch between the two)

Lucian Bute has done nothing yet except beat leftovers and avoid the main competition in the division - hopefully that changes now he's signed to a contract with Showtime.

Joe Calzaghe I'd rate No.1 on longevity though I don't think he could beat Roy Jones Jnr at the weight when Roy was a stunningly gifted fighter.

coxy0001 wrote:Fact that RJJ is @ #1 is enough for me to ignore this thread.

As much as i don't rate JC in terms of ATG he's #1 by a mile

How can the poor excuse of an author claim RJJ is #1 because "his performances were special" when fighting blind, retard3d nobodies is beyond me.

One win over Toney, a fat guy still struggling like mad to get to 168, doesn't even get him in the top 5 for me.

And post S6 he'll be ranked behind about another 3 fighters after they've finished the tourny/finished fighting Kessler, Bute in rematches etc etc

Shocking

you forgot to ignore the thread tho Coxxy, i think everyone is entitled to their own opinion and this was a well thought out thread,of course you can challenge Calzaghes record, do i need ot go on...

RJJ is easily the best on that list.

Froch is the current number one SMW no question for me, better record than Ward, and Bute is criminally overrated. I'd put Froch 6th on that list, and Calzaghe would be number one - RJJ more talented certainly but JC was the most dominant SMW ever and his record is head and shoulders above RJJ's at the weight (and i dont even particularly like JC).

Eubank above Benn too, Benn may have beaten Barkley & McClellan but Eubank twice beat Watson who made a monkey of Benn, plus he was 1-0-1 against Benn in their primes so has to rank higher no question.

Azania

As my old coach used to say:

Anyone can dick a course, it's how often you do it on the toughest courses you can play.

The above doesn't apply to RJJ, he constantly avoided challenges (how many lineal titles did he win btw?) and took the soft option.

"Ranking" him based on "ability" is blind ignorance, especially when you're so keen to discredit Rocky on who he fought. Sorry sunshine, but you're starting to make yourself seem a bit naive and full of contradictions.

Name me RJJs top 5 wins please? And why? Many thanks, Coxy

Read what I wrote again coxy.

"RJJ is the best on that list"

I haven't seen anything else

And he certainly doesn't qualify on my SMW top 5 list based on Toney.

Otherwise Hatton gets all sorts of brown hole loving for beating KT when he was what - #3 P4P?

Bob wrote:The article confuses me. We rate Jones Jr number one based not on his record, but on his abilities around the weight, then state Toney would probably beat Benn and Eubank, but his record is not as good.

We're either rating it on achievement or ability, not picking and choosing.

I'd rate Benn higher than Kessler any day of the week based on achievements, but I'd back the Dane to put him away every day of the week.

I think this is often the problem with articles rating divisions, especially when RJJ, Calzaghe & Toney are mentioned in the SMW. Your right about the authors picking & choosing ability/talent or longevity. Maybe RJJ & Toney were the 'better'boxers but Calzaghe has the most successful title defenses under his belt & established himself in the division that nobody wanted to rate. This debate can get messy & go on for ever. What always makes me laugh is Tocker Pudwell, had never heard of him before the JC fight & never heard anything after except in Calzaghe threads on here & the old 606. I think S6 fighters all stand with these guys, mental state aside I think Dirrel has a lot of talent, Froch is a tough fight for any & we know about Ward & Kessler.

coxy0001 wrote:"RJJ is the best on that list"

I haven't seen anything else

And he certainly doesn't qualify on my SMW top 5 list based on Toney.

Otherwise Hatton gets all sorts of brown hole loving for beating KT when he was what - #3 P4P?

Who on that list would have beaten him?

Azania

Point is - who has he beaten to prove to you he was good enough?

JC owns him. Collins has too much grit for him. Eubank too much nouse. Benn walks through walls.

Remind me, who has he beaten at 168 or higher to prove that? and PROVE is a big word and question. You cant base it on "ability" beating up on dudds

coxy0001 wrote:Azania

Point is - who has he beaten to prove to you he was good enough?

JC owns him. Collins has too much grit for him. Eubank too much nouse. Benn walks through walls.

Remind me, who has he beaten at 168 or higher to prove that? and PROVE is a big word and question. You cant base it on "ability" beating up on dudds

he schooled the #2 P4P guy out there. Who have Benn and Eubank beaten that ranks as high as Toney, McCallum etc?

azania wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:"RJJ is the best on that list"

I haven't seen anything else

And he certainly doesn't qualify on my SMW top 5 list based on Toney.

Otherwise Hatton gets all sorts of brown hole loving for beating KT when he was what - #3 P4P?

Who on that list would have beaten him?

What Coxy & others say on this matter is that Calzaghe has the better record at SMW than RJJ rather than who is technically the better fighter & quite possably he had a more career defining fights there. I was a big RJJ, but Toney aside I think he did more at LHW than SMW. Respect to the guy 4 weights incl MW, which probably does more for him than his brief stop at SMW . Love him or loathe him Calzaghe became the man to beat at the weight.

Simple, Gerald Mclellan

Rankings aren't based on head to heads exclusively, Roberto Duran would arguably beat any 140lber in history doesn't mean he ranks top in the division

sohotnot wrote:

azania wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:"RJJ is the best on that list"

I haven't seen anything else

And he certainly doesn't qualify on my SMW top 5 list based on Toney.

Otherwise Hatton gets all sorts of brown hole loving for beating KT when he was what - #3 P4P?

Who on that list would have beaten him?

What Coxy & others say on this matter is that Calzaghe has the better record at SMW than RJJ rather than who is technically the better fighter & quite possably he had a more career defining fights there. I was a big RJJ, but Toney aside I think he did more at LHW than SMW. Respect to the guy 4 weights incl MW, which probably does more for him than his brief stop at SMW . Love him or loathe him Calzaghe became the man to beat at the weight.

I'm not disputing that. JC has a better record based on longevity at the weight. But imo RJJ beats the lot. My argument wasn't who had the better record. I said RJJ was the best.

azania wrote:

sohotnot wrote:

azania wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:"RJJ is the best on that list"

I haven't seen anything else

And he certainly doesn't qualify on my SMW top 5 list based on Toney.

Otherwise Hatton gets all sorts of brown hole loving for beating KT when he was what - #3 P4P?

Who on that list would have beaten him?

What Coxy & others say on this matter is that Calzaghe has the better record at SMW than RJJ rather than who is technically the better fighter & quite possably he had a more career defining fights there. I was a big RJJ, but Toney aside I think he did more at LHW than SMW. Respect to the guy 4 weights incl MW, which probably does more for him than his brief stop at SMW . Love him or loathe him Calzaghe became the man to beat at the weight.

I'm not disputing that. JC has a better record based on longevity at the weight. But imo RJJ beats the lot. My argument wasn't who had the better record. I said RJJ was the best.

Thats fair enough, sometimes wires can get crossed on here.

It certainly does.

Azania

I'll ask again as you're doing your D4 ducking impression - objectively based on what at the weight?

All you seem to have is perceived ability, but who does he have who doesn't have an asterisk against?

I do give up, i really do.

azania wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:"RJJ is the best on that list"

I haven't seen anything else

And he certainly doesn't qualify on my SMW top 5 list based on Toney.

Otherwise Hatton gets all sorts of brown hole loving for beating KT when he was what - #3 P4P?

Who on that list would have beaten him?

Nail and hammer spring to mind. Nobody on the list would have beaten RJJ. To suggest otherwise is bearing on the ridiculous.

Calzaghe could certainly have beaten Jones at his best, his work rate and speed were like nothing Jones ever faced, back in the 90's he also had a fair bit of power as well

The Mighty Atom wrote:Calzaghe could certainly have beaten Jones at his best, his work rate and speed were like nothing Jones ever faced, back in the 90's he also had a fair bit of power as well

Joe never faced anyone near RJJ's ability in the 90's he mainly fought nobodies. he struggled with Robin Reid - How does he cope with Roy? He has the punch output but he doesn't get near him.

Think that people are too quick to assume that Jones was invincible, aside from Toney and Hopkins he never really beat anyone of not.

Styles makes fights and I see Calzaghe being an absolute nightmare for Jones

sorry I have not read all the posts but Sven Otkke comes no where near the top ten

The Mighty Atom wrote:Think that people are too quick to assume that Jones was invincible, aside from Toney and Hopkins he never really beat anyone of not.

Styles makes fights and I see Calzaghe being an absolute nightmare for Jones

At the time he was beating Toney and Hopkins who did Joe beat in the following 5 or 6 years? Richie Woodhall? Theres no comparison.

The Mighty Atom wrote:Think that people are too quick to assume that Jones was invincible, aside from Toney and Hopkins he never really beat anyone of not.

Styles makes fights and I see Calzaghe being an absolute nightmare for Jones

Oh please. Who did JC beat to match those two? Its like saying that aside from Hearns and Hagler, who did SRL beat?

I'm basing this on styles rather than reputation

WelshDevilRob wrote:

azania wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:"RJJ is the best on that list"

I haven't seen anything else

And he certainly doesn't qualify on my SMW top 5 list based on Toney.

Otherwise Hatton gets all sorts of brown hole loving for beating KT when he was what - #3 P4P?

Who on that list would have beaten him?

Nail and hammer spring to mind. Nobody on the list would have beaten RJJ. To suggest otherwise is bearing on the ridiculous.

Exactly.

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Think that people are too quick to assume that Jones was invincible, aside from Toney and Hopkins he never really beat anyone of not.

Styles makes fights and I see Calzaghe being an absolute nightmare for Jones

Oh please. Who did JC beat to match those two? Its like saying that aside from Hearns and Hagler, who did SRL beat?

Only Duran and Benitez on top which still is more impressive than Toney and Benitez, poor example

[quote="The Mighty Atom"]Think that people are too quick to assume that Jones was invincible, aside from Toney and Hopkins he never really beat anyone of not.

Mike Mccallum? Vinny Paz? Montell Griffin?

coxy0001 wrote:Azania

I'll ask again as you're doing your D4 ducking impression - objectively based on what at the weight?

All you seem to have is perceived ability, but who does he have who doesn't have an asterisk against?

I do give up, i really do.

At any weight you can think of. RJJ was the best Mid, SMW and LHW when he fought in those divisions. I would say that he was the best at each of those weights for the past 25 years.

YOu mention Eubank, Collins, Benn being able to beat RJJ. I wont even respond to such a ridiculous answer. Sorry. No ducking here. I never duck any question. If my answer sounds silly, well its just my opinion and I stand by it.

FFS AZ

The Mighty Atom wrote:

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Think that people are too quick to assume that Jones was invincible, aside from Toney and Hopkins he never really beat anyone of not.

Styles makes fights and I see Calzaghe being an absolute nightmare for Jones

Oh please. Who did JC beat to match those two? Its like saying that aside from Hearns and Hagler, who did SRL beat?

Only Duran and Benitez on top which still is more impressive than Toney and Benitez, poor example

HOw many rounds did a prime Hop and Toney win off RJJ?

prettyboy1304 wrote:FFS AZ

Ha.

Vinny Paz is not a good name on RJJ's record as the guy was a blown up Lightweight. Shocking mismatch.

Using Azania logic not sure a 40 year old McCallum, Blown up Lightweight Pazienza and a never was Griffin quanitfy as great wins

azania wrote:

coxy0001 wrote:Azania

I'll ask again as you're doing your D4 ducking impression - objectively based on what at the weight?

All you seem to have is perceived ability, but who does he have who doesn't have an asterisk against?

I do give up, i really do.

At any weight you can think of. RJJ was the best Mid, SMW and LHW when he fought in those divisions. I would say that he was the best at each of those weights for the past 25 years.

YOu mention Eubank, Collins, Benn being able to beat RJJ. I wont even respond to such a ridiculous answer. Sorry. No ducking here. I never duck any question. If my answer sounds silly, well its just my opinion and I stand by it.

I agree with most of your posts on this subject, Az. But I do think Benn has a good chance of beating RJJ due to styles. I'd favour Roy but Benn has a very good chance.

Did Jones ever prove himself the best at 160lb, 168lbs or 175lbs or was he happy living off his reputation. At 175lbs Michalewski had already cleaned out the division before Jones and only on reputation did Jones rank ahead of him.

The Mighty Atom wrote:Using Azania logic not sure a 40 year old McCallum, Blown up Lightweight Pazienza and a never was Griffin quanitfy as great wins

Paz wasn't that poor an example no more of a mismatch than jc fighting that manfredo kid off the contender.

Where are the big names on Calzaghes record?

The Mighty Atom wrote:Using Azania logic not sure a 40 year old McCallum, Blown up Lightweight Pazienza and a never was Griffin quanitfy as great wins

Its a good thing I didn't mention them. Plus I am on record here in dismissing Paz as a juicer.

Griffin was a very good win. Especially the manner in which he destroyed him.

Let me see now. JC's best wins were against Hop, who RJJ had beaten 20 years earlier. Give me strength. Oh and Lacy.

I still maintain though that JC is Britain's No1 P4P fighter.

He was that good. RJJ was simply better.

Calzaghe hasn't got the reputation of Jones so him fighting weaker opposition is to be expected but basing a whole career on two fights is a fairly weak argument.

azania wrote:Let me see now. JC's best wins were against Hop, who RJJ had beaten 20 years earlier. Give me strength. Oh and Lacy.

I still maintain though that JC is Britain's No1 P4P fighter.

He was that good. RJJ was simply better.

I don't agree with you on JC being britains P4P #1 but we've been down that road before. I do agree that RJJ was better than him IMO BHOP was as well.