Should Lennox Lewis have retired? What if?

Its common knowledge that the heavyweight division of today lacks any real talent and is the worst era in history for the big men. A division which once boasted talents like Ali, Frazier, Marciano, Tyson, Foreman and others is now populated by phoneys like David Haye and Audley Harrison or else useless Russian lumps that rely on brawn over brain.

Could anyone have imagined the division falling into such a state of disrepair 15 years ago when you had wonderful fighters and rivalries between Lennox Lewis, Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield and even George Foreman making history!?

Im a believer that its good to go out on the top with nothing to prove and that is precisely what Lennox Lewis did. But for us the fans it dealt a killer blow to the heavyweight division. How much better would things have been if he had stayed on and should he have stayed on? What if he had stayed on? I suspect he would still be ruling the division to this day if he wanted do, although motivation would have been lost. But could it have saved the division from falling by the wayside? The heavyweight champion is the pinnacle of boxing and the current state of affairs must be considered a blow to boxing?

Part of me is glad he retired when he did at the top of the sport, but part of me wishes he was still around to inject some much needed life into the sport!

Yes he should. And all the evidence you need of that is the fact that there has been no one come through in the years since who we even ask "would he have beat Lennox?"

He beat Vitali and would have smashed Wlad. Never has there been a less "what if?" retirement than Lewis IMO, and that's before you get onto the fact he had lost interest etc.

Seanusarrilius wrote:Yes he should. And all the evidence you need of that is the fact that there has been no one come through inthe years since who we even ask "would he have beat Lennox?"

He beat Vitali and would have smashed Wlad. Never has there been a less "what if?" retirement than Lewis IMO, and that's before you get onto the fact he had lost interest etc.

I agree with you. But if he had stayed on it would have meant a great deal more to the division and the interest in it. Since his retirement it has drpped out of sight. No doubt he would beat anyone it it today. The hard part would be staying motivated and not having enough challenges to spur him on.

I'm glad he retired when he did. Should he have rematched Vitali I think it would have been very different. Lewis would have fallen further from the plane of interest and Vitali would have been out with a point to prove.

I'm sad he retired. He's #3 on my ATG Heavyweight list as you all know. I'd love to be able to look forward to a Lewis fight again, something in watching your hero on TV. There's no heroes now. Nobody you can look up to and feel proud of, from any nation in terms of boxing. Froch is the closest we have and even he can be a bit of a charlie with the guff he spouts sometimes.

I suppose Calzaghe was the last great British hero.

On topic, there are some great heavyweights coming through. Price looks handy, Mitchell is looking the biznizz and Solis if he keeps the weight off for longer than 10 minutes could be pretty handy. Besides that theres Fury, Povetkin etc.

Not all bleak. Just the K Bro's are a cut above at the moment.

Lewis would have gained nothing by continuing. He retired at the right time.

And is it really common knowledge that the HW division contains no "real talent"? They're not terribly exciting but the Klits have ruled the division for a long time, even if that is due to a lack of competition. Perhaps they would have struggled against the greats of yesteryear but to suggest they have no talent is absolutely ludicrous.

He smelt the coffee like the chess player he was......

I imagine herealised that a young and hungry Vitali would've been a big handful had the cut not interceded on his behalf..

I think at 36 or whatever he realised that the new generation was going to have it's say had they met again......




Right choice by a smart guy...

No point Lewis just hanging around to give credibility to the division IMO. One fighter can't do that anyway, he would have a) continued to dominate and been despised by many for it or b) lost to a bum or lesser fighter and regrette dit like all the rest do.

It's a division, one man can't make a divsion worth watching.

Tyson made a division worth watching!!!

Seanusarrilius wrote:No point Lewis just hanging around to give credibility to the division IMO. One fighter can't do that anyway, he would have a) continued to dominate and been despised by many for it or b) lost to a bum or lesser fighter and regrette dit like all the rest do.

It's a division, one man can't make a divsion worth watching.

I cant see him losing to anyone around now so for me that would not be a danger - although staying motivated could be a problem. But even at 50% he would still be champion.

Perhaps you are right about his impact but I see the division still being substantially more exciting and watched if Lewis were still around. I think they have forgotten what the heavyweight division is across the pond! Lewis was not as popular in the U.S of course, often unfairly treated, but its surely a better alternative to the situation nowadays?

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Tyson made a division worth watching!!!

Very true. How the sport needs another of his talent, ruthlessness and excitement! His only problem would be I dont think anyone around now would be brave enough to fight him!

A lot of people didn't find Lewis exciting while he was still active. So I'm not sure how he would reinvigorate or be the saviour of the division if he stuck around when he was past his sell by date.

Be great to have Lewis back now wouldn't it!!

and I don't even like Canadians.....

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Tyson made a division worth watching!!!

maybe, even if that is true, LEwis wasn't the same sort of explosve fighter as Tyson. Bottom line is, there was no point in Lewis hanging around, none at all. Watch a lumbering, overweight Lennox Lewis defeat a bunch of B level Heavies, where's the interest in that?

I must admit, Gordy, that I am disappointed that you have decided not to elaborate on which Russian lumps you were referring to, and indeed why Wlad and Vit do not have any talent.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Be great to have Lewis back now wouldn't it!!

and I don't even like Canadians.....

I am British and live in Canada so I will claim him either way

Canada is like America, minus a few of the muppets. No offence and present company accepted, although you're hardly American these days Trussy.

Typical Seany sticks the boot in and then gives a back handed compliment as If to cushion the blow!!

Canada is half full of people who wish they were American....and the other half are French.....

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Typical Seany sticks the boot in and then gives a back handed compliment as If to cushion the blow!!

Canada is half full of people who wish they were American....and the other half are French.....

Haha, touche my old friend.

Canadians do have an inferiority complex in regards to America, that much is true. I think they most dislike the fact that your national anthem is so catchy. I find that funny, especially as ours is so bad in GB and we don't care

If Lewis had have waited around giving a bit more validity to the division then I could definitely see Vitali handing him a loss in the rematch. Although Lewis was a smart fighter and a businessman, he got out at the top, and there's always the distinct possibility that after a few too many bangs on the head he could have turned into a Holyfield type caricature of himself. Its unlikely but Holyfield is a past great still floating about, giving no validity to the divsion.

alma wrote:I read today that Lewis unsuccessfully sued Don King for £385 million because King wouldn't allow a rematch with Tyson. Not sure what the point of a rematch would have been, bearing in mind the beat down in 2002.

That was pure money. Lewis just wanted another huge payday for an easy nights work.

Sorry but the idea Lewis would still be ruling today is just rubbish. Lewis retired about nine years ago at 38 on the back of a 44 fight career, if we work on him still fighting on a rate of two fights a year minimum he would be 47 and currently on 62 fights the chances of him still being able to repel all comers at such an age is beyond fanciful, it is just ridiculous, and that is no matter how poor a division we generally have at the minute.

I rate Lewis but honestly the way some talk about him on here makes him out to be supermans harder big brother. He was capable of getting flattened by Hasim bleeding Rahman in his pomp and there was no guarantee he would have won the Vitali rematch so lets keep a sense of perspective about these things please.

I think you might end up very disappointed if he had carried on. No doubt in my mind there isnt a hope he would still be ruling today if he hadnt retired. Its questionable if he would have even beaten Vitali in a rematch in 2003.

Even giving him the benefit of the doubt of beating Vitali in a return, I think the liklihood is he limps on for maybe couple of years more before losing somewhere.

As someone else said, Holyfield is still carrying on and its not good for the division and hes a far cry from ruling it. Lewis would simply have succumbed to age, dwindling motivation and deteriorating skills the same way. Post 2006 the Klitschkos would be too much for him for sure.

Yes he should. if he hadn't he losses to Vitali a year or so later. Can't be father time,and before you say Foreman-Moorer, Vitali 's a very different proposition.
By the by , I'm not sure how much truth is in the idea that Lewis tried to sue King re. a Tyson rematch. The rematch clause is envoked if you lose, not win, and no actual contract to fight had been signed. And if he had surely $38.5 not $385.

I did not enjoy Lewis's reign. Most of his defences were boring and I never warmed to him as a person.

He got out at the right time. A rematch with Vitali would have been a 50-50 fight. What's the point having a loss to a fighter he would have beaten 9/10 in his prime.

Much much preferred watching Tyson (who I rate above Lewis) and Holyfield (who I rate about the same).

I think his retirement was a good one for him, but not for the fans. After that brutal fight with Vitali he stated a rematch would be given straight away due to Vitali wanting to carry on even with the cut and of course being well ahead on the scorecards. This never materialized. I think he left at the right time if im honest. Contraversial but nobody can complain if he is one of the top 10 heavyweight of all time. Lost twice and avenged both against Rahman and McCall. I just wish he fought Vitali in a 2nd fight to prove the critics wrong, THEN go out.

Never mind!

mobilemaster8 wrote:being well ahead on the scorecards.

I had it 4 - 2 when it was stopped.

Not "well ahead" really. I hate how people make out that the Vitali fight was a modern day robbery, how it should have continued and if it did that Vitali would have won.

No. Lewis was a slow starter, if he was against quality opposition. He lost the first few rounds against Bruno, looked cagey against Holyfield until round 3/4 and his 2 losses were inside the first 6 rounds. He hadn't lost before if he'd gotten past the 6th.

So basically until Round 3 (if against top drawer opposition in most cases) Lewis was slow to start. The same can be said for against Vitali. He lost the first 2 rounds. He lost the following two rounds because he was being outworked through sheer will and hunger. Lewis wasn't interested in winning the first 3/4 rounds. He needed to work Vitali out and the cut galvanised him. Pushed him into the gear we all knew he had. He was winning the next 2 rounds, and Vitali would have been knocked out. He was breathing heavily, being caught by some utter beasts and his eye was a mess. The fight shouldn't have continued, he would have been blinded. Being behind on the scorecards was no real problem for Lewis, he often came on strong in rounds 5 - 12 with superior conditioning. I don't recall many of his opponents taking rounds in the second half of a fight, if any. He was dominant. took him a while to get working, maybe a little longer against Vitali cos he'd let himself go.

So stop with the "well behind" on the scorecards. Vitali would have lost that fight. He wasn't hurting Lewis, Lewis wasn't doing anything stupid - he was losing because he was doing what he always did when he was unsure of opposition and taking his time.

Too many things up in the air to say who would have won had the fight with Vitali continued, the thing to remember is in the absence of a stoppage or a knockdown which given Vitali's chin and youth is not guaranteed to come Lewis needs to win 5 of the last six rounds to get the win on the cards if we accept a 4-2 score in Vitali's favour at the time of the stoppage, which most myself included do. A huge ask for a 38 year old guy against a younger and talented opponent.

All acaemic largely as the stoppage was right and legitimate but I would not say with any degree of confidence who would have gone onto win if we take the cut out of the equation.

I think Lewis was having a good phase in the fight...now whether he couldve sustained it If the cut hadn't of intervened who knows!!!

though Vitali was the younger man..

more of a what If??? scenario than any robbery....

Having only had a few amateur fights and a couple of years of low level sparring behind me...

I'll leave it to those more experienced, who have attained a higher level and been in with better opponents than me to assess things like body language...work rate etc..

to come to a better more considered opinion...

Disagree really. I think Vitali was ahead on the scorecards, 3-1 in one judge, so not really called close i suppose. But never the less, my point is that he was getting caught A LOT, as was Vitali, which is very rare for Lewis. He also came in at his highest ever weight and fought an opponent who had 3 weeks notice in Vitali. I dont t think it was a robbery at all, i just wish the rematch happened so he could have buried the hatchet so to speak AKA Rahman/McCall.

If that fight had continued it was rather clear that if you knew Lewis and how he operated that he was going to win. Watch some of his longer lasting fights and score it after 4 rounds. You'll notice Lewis isn't as dominant in a lot of them. Its the later rounds he picks up and does well.

I do think there is a bit of contradictory thinking that goes on when it comes to the Lewis and Vitali fight. Whenever anyone looks to use the fight in praise of Vitali the default position many take is to argue that Lewis was out of shape ageing and took the fight on short notice. All arguably true, however when many discuss the fight they are almost certain Lewis would have gone on to win. If we accept he was out of shape and ageing struggle to see how we can be so certain he finds the extra gears necessary in the second half of the fight because those things to my mind would hardly seem ideal elements to put together such a turnaround.

Well Rowley, considering Lewis was catching Vitali a lot more in the 2 rounds before it was stopped, on my card winning them - going by form Lewis was doing a number on Vitali. I'm not saying Lewis would have lasted the 12 rounds. In the condition he was in, it was unlikely he'd get that far, but consider the cut. Vitali couldn't see out of his eye, and he was getting rocked by some big punches. Big big punches. One of them would have put him down. Lewis was getting hit much less. I honestly can't make a case for Vitali turning that fight around considering the mess he was in.

The cut does render it largely academic because given the nature of the cut the fight was never going the distance but have seen people argue that irrespective of the cut Lewis wins and for me just can't say with the certainty I have often seen displayed that I agree with this view.

If the cut wasn't there, I'm with you that Lewis would have had to dig deep, but we knew he could - he'd shown in the previous 2 rounds that he was getting though. He was a slow starter Rowley, and despite his condition he was an accomplished 12 round fighter and only got sparked when he lost concentration - not through poor conditioning.

Lewis by his own admission says he wasn't in peak condition for the fight with Vitali,this suggests that Lewis was finding it hard to motivate himself.If that was the case then its time to get out, wise choice from Lewis.

Lewis was 36..It makes what he did in his previous fights redundant!!!!

History doesn't always repeat itself....

Just a tweet from Lennox himself:

"Lennox Lewis ‏@LennoxLewis @me: I felt him get weaker and was looking to finish him off in the next couple of rounds. I wasn't in there to win on points."

Lewis is probably not the most impartial judge on it. Id imagine Vitali would disagree. He didnt look like a weak fighter on the verge of being finished off when they stopped the fight. He looked pretty livid and well up for continuing.

I remember Bruno saying he was looking to stop Tyson in the 6th round...

So we'll take that as read as well............

Froch battered Kessler as well, anyone who doubts this only needs to read his book

Who knows how the fight would have panned out were it not for the cut, having seen the damage he'd done Lewis must have consciously known the fight wouldn't last much longer so how it effected his performance is another unknown.

alma wrote:

JabMachineMK2 wrote:Just a tweet from Lennox himself:

"Lennox Lewis ‏@LennoxLewis @me: I felt him get weaker and was looking to finish him off in the next couple of rounds. I wasn't in there to win on points."

never the most humble our len though. I remember when he'd just been pole-axed by rahman and his sole post fight interview comment was "no way can he beat me, no way can he beat me". Er...

Ha. I remember the interview after McCall sparked him also. "I'm ok. I'll keep my chin up" Errr no Lennox. Keep your chin down mate.

Lennox Lewis is my favourite fighter of all-time and I followed all his Pro career.

I do believe his focus and dedication had severely lowered by the time he fought Vitali Klitschko and he made the right choice in leaving the sport.

Not many leave at the top, so credit to him for going out on a high.

Gordy wrote:Its common knowledge that the heavyweight division of today lacks any real talent and is the worst era in history for the big men. A division which once boasted talents like Ali, Frazier, Marciano, Tyson, Foreman and others is now populated by phoneys like David Haye and Audley Harrison or else useless Russian lumps that rely on brawn over brain.

Could anyone have imagined the division falling into such a state of disrepair 15 years ago when you had wonderful fighters and rivalries between Lennox Lewis, Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield and even George Foreman making history!?

Im a believer that its good to go out on the top with nothing to prove and that is precisely what Lennox Lewis did. But for us the fans it dealt a killer blow to the heavyweight division. How much better would things have been if he had stayed on and should he have stayed on? What if he had stayed on? I suspect he would still be ruling the division to this day if he wanted do, although motivation would have been lost. But could it have saved the division from falling by the wayside? The heavyweight champion is the pinnacle of boxing and the current state of affairs must be considered a blow to boxing?

Part of me is glad he retired when he did at the top of the sport, but part of me wishes he was still around to inject some much needed life into the sport!

haye and harrison the same ? really ?

I agree with you Jab the Vitali fight was stopped at the right time and if the ref had let it go on for any longer Lewis would have stopped Vitali. At least it would have put to rest the claims on these boards that Lewis was getting badly beaten. I am glad though that Lennox retired at the right time,even though he was one of my favourite boxers.

I just don't see how anyone can say Vitali gets stopped by Lewis without the cut...

Explain why???..Wasn't looking in trouble..

I think Venus is made of strawberry cheesecake....

Means I like strawberry cheesecake..

Er, Im not sure why people are so pessimistic about Lewis were he still around today. Simple question. Who would have beaten him? Haye? Harrison? I would back a 70 year old Lennox against those guys!

The fact he'd be in his late 40's would suggest to me he struggles massively with a fair few out there and would get beaten by the brothers.

Lewis fought Vitali. Vitali got cut in the third.

Vitali won the first four rounds. Lewis won the next two rounds. The scores were 58-56.

Vitali was rightly stopped due to a cut in the 6th. LEWIS WON BY TKO. the rest is history.....

Had he continued his chin would have declined with age. His motivation was already on the wane and this could have effected his concentration, making him even more susceptible to a KO loss to someone not in his class.

Lewis timed his retirement pretty much to perfection, and I'm amazed that anyone (even Gordy) would wish in any capacity that he were still boxing today.