Ireland vs New Zealand 2nd Test: Team announcements and matchday thread.

by **Biltong** Mon 11 Jun 2012, 16:01

First topic message reminder :

Sorry boys new thread other one is full.

Venue for the 2nd test: AMI Stadium (Addington) - formerly Rugby League Park Christchurch
Capacity: 26,000 incl. temporary seating
Weather http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/2192362 (current forecast for Saturday evening is around 3 degrees C and light rain. But last week's snow has melted at least)

courtesy of Taylorman:

NZ team named- only one change- Thompson for Vito (injured) with Sam Cane on the bench...

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/7098902/Thomson-in-for-Vito-Cane-on-All-Blacks-bench

All Blacks: Israel Dagg, Zac Guildford, Conrad Smith, Sonny Bill Williams, Julian Savea, Dan Carter, Aaron Smith, Kieran Read, Richie McCaw (c), Adam Thomson, Sam Whitelock, Brodie Retallick, Owen Franks, Andrew Hore, Tony Woodcock.

Reserves: Hika Elliot, Ben Franks, Sam Cane, Ali Williams, Piri Weepu, Aaron Cruden, Ben Smith

Irish team:
15 - Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster)
14 - Fergus McFadden (Old Belvedere/Leinster)
13 - Brian O'Driscoll (UCD/Leinster) (capt)
12 - Gordon D'Arcy (Lansdowne/Leinster)
11 - Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster)
10 - Jonathan Sexton (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
9 - Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster)
1 - Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster
2 - Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster)
3 - Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster)
4 - Dan Tuohy (Ballymena/Ulster)
5 - Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster)
6 - Kevin McLaughlin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
7 - Sean O'Brien (Clontarf/Leinster)
8 - Jamie Heaslip (Naas/Leinster)

Replacements:

16 - Sean Cronin (St. Mary's College/Leinster)
17 - Declan Fitzpatrick (Dungannon/Ulster)
18 - Donncha O'Callaghan (Cork Constitution/Munster)
19 - Peter O'Mahony (Cork Constitution/Munster)
20 - Eoin Reddan (Lansdowne/Leinster)
21 - Ronan O'Gara (Cork Constitution/Munster)
22 - Simon Zebo (Cork Constitution/Munster)

Tour Previews
http://www.v2journal.com/new-zealands-june-tests-preview.html
http://www.v2journal.com/irelands-summer-tour.html

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 11 Jun 2012, 19:53

Nah, despite my last joke, and despite the fact he actually isn't playing that well, I would stick with Murray still. We have to IMO.

by GunsGerms Mon 11 Jun 2012, 19:56

rodders wrote:Anyone else like to see Paul Marshall start the next test?

Marshall would definitly be an improvement on captain slow.

by **rodders** Mon 11 Jun 2012, 19:58

#hatersGonnaHate Cool

by **Notch** Mon 11 Jun 2012, 19:59

Nah, Reddan is still a better player than Marshall. And Murray has a bigger future in the game- I still believe he could be really good given the right coach.

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:00

Notch wrote:Nah, Reddan is still a better player than Marshall. And Murray has a bigger future in the game- I still believe he could be really good given the right coach.

This. Seriously, he has a good pass, so why does he think he needs to take so long? And take 3 steps each time..

by LeinsterFan4life Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:00

We could keep up the trend of getting old connacht players and get frank murphy over?

by asoreleftshoulder Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:00

I'd prefer to see Reddan or Marshall this week,I'd use this week to give gametime to fringe players and give the team another week of training together before going all out in the last test.

by **Notch** Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:03

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Notch wrote:Nah, Reddan is still a better player than Marshall. And Murray has a bigger future in the game- I still believe he could be really good given the right coach.

This. Seriously, he has a good pass, so why does he think he needs to take so long? And take 3 steps each time..

If anything, the point I've been most impressed with Murray for Ireland was in his first few caps! He's started well and regressed imo. Kind of underlines how much of a fail it is for us to not have a backs coach... got to look the coaching in Munster as well, although it looks like that situation has been definitively addressed over the summer. Hopefully the new Munster coaches will benefit a number of young players

by asoreleftshoulder Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:05

Yeah our lack of a backs coach is criminal.It totally undermines Kidney and it looks like the IRFU are just waiting for him to see out his contract which is a disgusting situation.
For all my criticism of Kidney I don't know if he could change things in the team even if he wanted to when he is handicapped like this.

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:07

But he obviously started his career for Munster.. could it be a lack of confidence? Taken tips from O'Leary?

by **Notch** Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:07

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Yeah our lack of a backs coach is criminal.It totally undermines Kidney and it looks like the IRFU are just waiting for him to see out his contract which is a disgusting situation.
For all my criticism of Kidney I don't know if he could change things in the team even if he wanted to when he is handicapped like this.

Agreed. Posted that earlier. Seems like the IRFU know he's a busted flush but are just going to let him see out his contract because it'll cost them money to get rid of him. We've obviously learnt nothing from Eddie O'Sullivan and the contract debacle after the 2007 World Cup.

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:09

Also, I would ask Sin if he has any ideas about why Murray is so slow atm, but Murray's service is probably lightning in his eyes.

by Sin é Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:10

Rory_Gallagher wrote:What about all the games Madigan has actually started in, Sin?

Yea, Aironi, Glasgow, Edinburgh mainly. No match of real consequence. The two tight games that Leinster featured in this season (Clermont & Ospreys final), Madigan was left on the bench. He wasn't brought on to change them and he wasn't trusted to finish them.

by **Notch** Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:12

Rory_Gallagher wrote:But he obviously started his career for Munster.. could it be a lack of confidence? Taken tips from O'Leary?

I think he's just a young player who is still learning the game is all. Not much wrong with him, just needs a decent coach and some hard work and he'll be a very good scrum half. He had a great run of form which got him into the Ireland team.

We've seen loads of young Irish players have a cracking few months then regress as players because they are still learning the game. They just usually don't get thrust into the Ireland team so quickly and so it's harsh to be so critical. All of this will stand to him long term, I've no doubt. For all the criticism of conservatism Kidney seems really happy to rapidly promote young guys. So long as they are from Munster Headscratch

by asoreleftshoulder Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:12

Sin é wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:What about all the games Madigan has actually started in, Sin?

Yea, Aironi, Glasgow, Edinburgh mainly. No match of real consequence. The two tight games that Leinster featured in this season (Clermont & Ospreys final), Madigan was left on the bench. He wasn't brought on to change them and he wasn't trusted to finish them.

Montpellier at home slipped your mind or was that a match of no real consequence?

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:15

And what about the other games? Also, that very disrespectful to those teams Sin, especially Edinburgh (HEC semi finalists? Better than Munster, you do realise that?). You still have to win the games, you can hardly just turn up, so more nonsense from you Sin..

by Sin é Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:18

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Had Murray even played HC rugby when he was called on to start the biggest game in Ireland rugby history?You don't see why I bring that situation up when you object to Madigan sitting on the bench for an end of year tour because of lack of gametime,yet he has played a decent amount of HC rugby this year.

Just looked it up and Murray started the WC quarter final with a grand total of 8 starts and 6 sub appearances for Munster none of which were in the HC.Madigan has 24 starts and 25 sub appearances 1 + 6 in the HC and Sin thinks that's an argument against him being on the bench for an end of year tour.

Prior to the world cup QF Murray had benched against France & England & Australia and started against the USA.

Maybe Sexton didn't want Madigan cramping his style on this tour Wink

(have you figured out who would do Madigan's kicking for him - wouldn't be nice to have to start his place kicking career in NZ.

by LeinsterFan4life Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:21

So sin you would happily have o gara on your team ahead of madigan?

by asoreleftshoulder Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:23

Sin é wrote:

Prior to the world cup QF Murray had benched against France & England & Australia and started against the USA.

Maybe Sexton didn't want Madigan cramping his style on this tour (have you figured out who would do Madigan's kicking for him - wouldn't be nice to have to start his place kicking career in NZ.

Yes he managed all that with only 8 starts and 6 sub appearances for Munster,so again why can Madigan not sit on the bench for an end of year tour when he has 3 times that amount of competitive gametime and at a higher level than Murray had played at.

Why do you make statements like the Sexton one,is it because you can't justify your argument and hope to drag me into a Leinster v Munster debate instead?I have already told you Madigan has already kicked for Leinster you are being obtuse by refusing to acknowledge it.Madigan would kick if called upon.

by Sin é Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:25

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:What about all the games Madigan has actually started in, Sin?

Yea, Aironi, Glasgow, Edinburgh mainly. No match of real consequence. The two tight games that Leinster featured in this season (Clermont & Ospreys final), Madigan was left on the bench. He wasn't brought on to change them and he wasn't trusted to finish them.

Montpellier at home slipped your mind or was that a match of no real consequence?

Montpellier were well out of the comp at that stage. Leinster had already qualfied for the HCup KOs.

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:27

ASLS - very good counter argument. Sorry Sin, but he has you snookered here. Make as many Sexton remarks are you want, but you are completely wrong there. Murray got his start for Ireland with a lot less game time than Madigan has got now..

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:29

But seriously Sin, enough with the Sexton crap. If you can't justify your answer, at least leave out the Leinster vs Munster rubbish.

by Sin é Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:32

[quote="asoreleftshoulder"]

Sin é wrote:

Prior to the world cup QF Murray had benched against France & England & Australia and started against the USA.

Maybe Sexton didn't want Madigan cramping his style on this tour (have you figured out who would do Madigan's kicking for him - wouldn't be nice to have to start his place kicking career in NZ.

Yes he managed all that with only 8 starts and 6 sub appearances for Munster,so again why can Madigan not sit on the bench for an end of year tour when he has 3 times that amount of competitive gametime and at a higher level than Madigan had played at.

Competitive gametime without taking place kicks which is a requirement for Ireland OHs unless there is a certain starter who can placekick.

Why do you make statements like the Sexton one,is it because you can't justify your argument and hope to drag me into a Leinster v Munster debate instead?I have already told you Madigan has already kicked for Leinster you are being obtuse by refusing to acknowledge it.Madigan would kick if called upon.

Because I can't figure out why he is behind McFadden & Nacewa for placekicking duties. He needs gametime doing that.

by asoreleftshoulder Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:34

[quote="Sin é"]

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Sin é wrote:

Prior to the world cup QF Murray had benched against France & England & Australia and started against the USA.

Maybe Sexton didn't want Madigan cramping his style on this tour (have you figured out who would do Madigan's kicking for him - wouldn't be nice to have to start his place kicking career in NZ.

Yes he managed all that with only 8 starts and 6 sub appearances for Munster,so again why can Madigan not sit on the bench for an end of year tour when he has 3 times that amount of competitive gametime and at a higher level than Madigan had played at.

Competitive gametime without taking place kicks which is a requirement for Ireland OHs unless there is a certain starter who can placekick.

Why do you make statements like the Sexton one,is it because you can't justify your argument and hope to drag me into a Leinster v Munster debate instead?I have already told you Madigan has already kicked for Leinster you are being obtuse by refusing to acknowledge it.Madigan would kick if called upon.

Because I can't figure out why he is behind McFadden & Nacewa for placekicking duties. He needs gametime doing that.

I've already told you he has taken place kicks,he just doesn't do it all the time how many times must I repeat the point.

by Sin é Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:35

LeinsterFan4life wrote:So sin you would happily have o gara on your team ahead of madigan?

Yes, until Madigan is trusted to take placekicks for Leinster and gets a bit of experience when the going gets hard in a meaningful competition.

As I've said earlier, I think he is has the potential to be a very fine player.

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:37

Sin, two massive glaring errors in about 5 minutes of posting from you.

1) Edinburgh got further in the HEC than Munster.

2) Madigan is much more experienced than Murray was when he got called up for Ireland.

You accused a poster of being unable to admit to being wrong not so long ago. Do you not see the irony in that?

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:37

I can't wait to hear all the faults in Madigan's game when Hanrahan challenges him for the 10 shirt..

by LeinsterFan4life Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:42

Sin its hard to take you seriously when you think o gara should be ahead of madigan and if its about experience thats just typical munster...how much experience did savea have before he scored a hat trick against us?

by valjester Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:43

Earls' injury really highlights the problem of having brought such a small squad and also how versatile Earls is. Realistically, with Earls injured we really need to bring out three players to cover for the positions that he covers. Disappointed that he has gone for Duffy as it is a very conservative decision.

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:43

Or George North before starting for Wales?

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:44

valjester wrote:Earls' injury really highlights the problem of having brought such a small squad and also how versatile Earls is. Realistically, with Earls injured we really need to bring out three players to cover for the positions that he covers. Disappointed that he has gone for Duffy as it is a very conservative decision.

Duffy cannot cover wing, and we have more than enough centres on tour. So the best option would have been Kearny Jr surely.

by valjester Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:46

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
valjester wrote:Earls' injury really highlights the problem of having brought such a small squad and also how versatile Earls is. Realistically, with Earls injured we really need to bring out three players to cover for the positions that he covers. Disappointed that he has gone for Duffy as it is a very conservative decision.

Duffy cannot cover wing, and we have more than enough centres on tour. So the best option would have been Kearny Jr surely.

I would have thought Gilroy and Kearney would have been the best options but then again I would have had both of them in the original squad. It will be interesting to see what team goes out. If he reverts to Darcy in the centre it will be really disappointing.

by Sin é Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:46

[quote="asoreleftshoulder"]

Sin é wrote:
asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Sin é wrote:

Prior to the world cup QF Murray had benched against France & England & Australia and started against the USA.

Maybe Sexton didn't want Madigan cramping his style on this tour (have you figured out who would do Madigan's kicking for him - wouldn't be nice to have to start his place kicking career in NZ.

Yes he managed all that with only 8 starts and 6 sub appearances for Munster,so again why can Madigan not sit on the bench for an end of year tour when he has 3 times that amount of competitive gametime and at a higher level than Madigan had played at.

Competitive gametime without taking place kicks which is a requirement for Ireland OHs unless there is a certain starter who can placekick.

Why do you make statements like the Sexton one,is it because you can't justify your argument and hope to drag me into a Leinster v Munster debate instead?I have already told you Madigan has already kicked for Leinster you are being obtuse by refusing to acknowledge it.Madigan would kick if called upon.

Because I can't figure out why he is behind McFadden & Nacewa for placekicking duties. He needs gametime doing that.

I've already told you he has taken place kicks,he just doesn't do it all the time how many times must I repeat the point.

Yea, he kicked all of 47pts this season (15 of those were against Aironi). Sexton got about 200 pts and we all still hold our breaths to see if he is on target.

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:50

..No we don't.

by asoreleftshoulder Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:50

Sin é wrote:

I've already told you he has taken place kicks,he just doesn't do it all the time how many times must I repeat the point.

Yea, he kicked all of 47pts this season (15 of those were against Aironi). Sexton got about 200 pts and we all still hold our breaths to see if he is on target.

[/quote]

Again with the Sexton remark,you just can't help yourself can you.

We're talking about sitting on the bench for the end of year tour not starting in a 6 nations match against France or Wales.How many penalties would he have to take if he came on with 20 minutes left and if Sexton got injured early and he got a baptism of fire would that be such a bad thing?

by Sin é Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:51

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sin, two massive glaring errors in about 5 minutes of posting from you.

1) Edinburgh got further in the HEC than Munster. Edinburgh's league form was not good (which is the games that Madigan would have been starting in).

2) Madigan is much more experienced than Murray was when he got called up for Ireland. Yes, so what? Murray was not required to placekick by the way (even though he did it for Garrowen).

You accused a poster of being unable to admit to being wrong not so long ago. Do you not see the irony in that?

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:51

Why am I even responding anymore, this is so boring and repetitive it is actually unreal. Sin, you say the same thing over and over, you are repeatedly proven wrong, so you keep moving the goal posts. Just an endless circle and it is seriously getting so boring.

by **Notch** Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:52

He's a pretty high percentage place kicker these days to be fair. He does occasionally miss one you'd expect him to get but the stats say he is a good placekicker whilst being slightly short of the stats the truly world class kickers can boast. Its not as big a gulf as you imagine...

Wait, why am I getting involved in this?

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:54

Sin, I'm sure you have already flipping read this, but I will try and make it a bit bigger for you..

MADIGAN CAN KICK.

Seriously, this it isn't even funny anymore.

by valjester Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:55

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Why am I even responding anymore, this is so boring and repetitive it is actually unreal. Sin, you say the same thing over and over, you are repeatedly proven wrong, so you keep moving the goal posts. Just an endless circle and it is seriously getting so boring.

I would have thought most people are sick of those arguments at this stage, but every now again something so stupid is said that you feel like you have to point it out.

by **Notch** Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:57

Lads, lads. This can go on literally forever. And I mean forever. Endlessly. Without cessation until the test this weekend and even then, arguments about Leinster outhlaves with Sin are never resolved. Merely postponed.

I would really like it if we could cover some other topics on this thread in the meantime

by JmD Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:57

Sin, no self respecting coach would ever change the outhalf in a tight match unless the 10 on the bench is considerably better than the one on the field. I mean come on, I've seen a lot of matches where the coaches don't make any substitutions in case they upset the rhythm when the match is on the line. Only an idiot would change the 10, the position which would change the rhythm the most. All it says about Madigan is that he isn't better than Sexton, which can hardly be held against him. Any suggestion that it shows otherwise is just ridiculous.

by Sin é Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:57

[quote="asoreleftshoulder"]

Sin é wrote:

I've already told you he has taken place kicks,he just doesn't do it all the time how many times must I repeat the point.

Yea, he kicked all of 47pts this season (15 of those were against Aironi). Sexton got about 200 pts and we all still hold our breaths to see if he is on target.

Again with the Sexton remark,you just can't help yourself can you. Sorry, the last world cup is still in my memory. He was dropped because his place kicking was unreliable.

We're talking about sitting on the bench for the end of year tour not starting in a 6 nations match against France or Wales.How many penalties would he have to take if he came on with 20 minutes left and if Sexton got injured early and he got a baptism of fire would that be such a bad thing?

Why would you bring him all the way out to NZ to sit on the bench.

And yes, I think it would be a bad thing - very disrespectful to the other players to have a total novice who isn't trusted to place kick for his Province. Why should Kidney back him when Schmidt doesn't.

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 11 Jun 2012, 20:58

So who do people want to see most in the centres this weekend? Val, you said you would be annoyed with D'Arcy at 12. What partnership would you like to see?

by valjester Mon 11 Jun 2012, 21:00

Rory_Gallagher wrote:So who do people want to see most in the centres this weekend? Val, you said you would be annoyed with D'Arcy at 12. What partnership would you like to see?

Bod/Cave of the players that are there. I'd even be tempted to put Trimble in the centre just to have a powerful player in there but that would leave us short on the wings which once again comes back to the stupidity of bringing a 29 man squad.

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 11 Jun 2012, 21:00

"And yes, I think it would be a bad thing - very disrespectful to the other players to have a total novice who isn't trusted to place kick for his Province. Why should Kidney back him when Schmidt doesn't."

Aw seriously, I couldn't even ignore that one. What. Thee. Flip. picard

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 11 Jun 2012, 21:02

valjester wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:So who do people want to see most in the centres this weekend? Val, you said you would be annoyed with D'Arcy at 12. What partnership would you like to see?

Bod/Cave of the players that are there. I'd even be tempted to put Trimble in the centre just to have a powerful player in there but that would leave us short on the wings which once again comes back to the stupidity of bringing a 29 man squad.

Yeah I hope to see BOD and Cave also. See, speaking of a powerful player in the backs, I think that is exactly what we need. As I said before though, we don't really have any options there. Trimble moving in could work, but it isn't one for the future really is it? Spence is the only player who fits the bill for a physical centre. And he needs to learn to not run directly into contact. He needs to go for the off shoulder, try and confuse his opponents a bit with fancy footwork before charging through. He is very strong.

by Sin é Mon 11 Jun 2012, 21:04

Notch wrote:He's a pretty high percentage place kicker these days to be fair. He does occasionally miss one you'd expect him to get but the stats say he is a good placekicker whilst being slightly short of the stats the truly world class kickers can boast. Its not as big a gulf as you imagine...

Wait, why am I getting involved in this?

I think his place kicking is good now, but I doubt if I was the only person who wondered which kicker was going to show up when lining up a kick during the 6Ns and heaved a sigh of relief when he got it.

The point is, its taken a bit of time for Sexton to hone his skills as an international kicker. If it was so easy, Madigan would be doing it at club level.

by Rory_Gallagher Mon 11 Jun 2012, 21:04

Kearney Sr is actually a very powerful runner though. Bouncing SBW at the weekend was a bit of a "wow" moment for me. Is his brother that physical?

by valjester Mon 11 Jun 2012, 21:05

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
valjester wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:So who do people want to see most in the centres this weekend? Val, you said you would be annoyed with D'Arcy at 12. What partnership would you like to see?

Bod/Cave of the players that are there. I'd even be tempted to put Trimble in the centre just to have a powerful player in there but that would leave us short on the wings which once again comes back to the stupidity of bringing a 29 man squad.

Yeah I hope to see BOD and Cave also. See, speaking of a powerful player in the backs, I think that is exactly what we need. As I said before though, we don't really have any options there. Trimble moving in could work, but it isn't one for the future really is it? Spence is the only player who fits the bill for a physical centre. And he needs to learn to not run directly into contact. He needs to go for the off shoulder, try and confuse his opponents a bit with fancy footwork before charging through. He is very strong.

Yeah I only saw the game today because I was working over the weekend and with the Top14 final I was very busy but I though that although Zebo was poor, McFadden was appalling and I don't trust him on the wing at all. I think that Trimble was really missed, he might not have been in the best form but he always plays well against NZ.

Whats the word on injuries, all I've heard is that Earls is out?

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