What would NHers prefer- AI or Summer tour format?

Would the NHers here prefer the AI's format (where SH teams play a cross ssection of the NH sides) or a 3 test series in the same way the Summer tours are here?

Or reversely would NHers prefer to play the Summer tours in the AI format? ie The four home unions play 3 of the 4N sides down here in the same time frame?

What about the SHers?

Personally I prefer the AI format as we get to go for a G Slam and get some variety from week to week.
The travel component allows for the AI format in the NH more accommodating than the amount of travel required in the SH but is that a restricting factor these days?

What about SHers?
Which format do you prefer?

why would the Poms et al want to take on the All Blacks and get thumped three times in three weeks at home?

With the travelling - jet lag etc. an AI format in the SH would be even worse for the tourists - I expect it'll be adopted soon.

The NH have gotta try something different to get a result. The All Blacks didn't lose an AI test in all Henry's eight years in charge. Grand Slams will lose their lustre if teams head over and pick one up every second or third year. 3 in 5 years is already making one seem pretty easy.

dallym wrote:why would the Poms et al want to take on the All Blacks and get thumped three times in three weeks at home?

I dont think that would happen: I believe that France, England, Wales and Ireland could get one win out of 3 game at home vs the ABs which would eventually strenghten them and give them confindence so would be a good thing on the long run. rather have that than getting thumped by 3 different teams !

I like the way it works this year. The 3 match series for Eng, Ire, and Wales is certainly something different and has seemed to add a lot of spice and interest. We are forgetting Scotland who had to rush through Aus then go island hopping. And France are playing two in Argentina.

But the November Internationals are a bit different. I still like the variety of playing each or most of the bigger SH teams. Not sure if Argentina is forming up for November, but this would give each of the major NH nations a shot to see NZ, Aus, SA and Arg regularly. Probably need to discuss in December after its over to see how we feel it went. But, so far, the 2012 system seems like a good approach.

does anyone know this year AIs schedule btw? tks

Cut and paste from Planet Rugby...........

Sat - 10th Nov 12
Ireland vs South Africa
Italy vs Tonga
Wales vs Argentina
England vs Fiji

Sun - 11th Nov 12
Scotland vs New Zealand

Fri - 16th Nov 12
Wales vs Samoa

Sat - 17th Nov 12
Argentina vs France
Italy vs New Zealand
Scotland vs South Africa
England vs Australia

Sat - 24th Nov 12
Italy vs Australia
Ireland vs Argentina
England vs South Africa
Scotland vs Tonga
Wales vs New Zealand

Sat - 1st Dec 12
Wales vs Australia
England vs New Zealand

I don't like the summer tours of old when players seem disinterested; we rest our 1st team and send a second string side of veterans and 1st caps most of which will never get near the 1st team to get demolished by 50-70 points.

I like the current England summer tour in its new format, what with the churchill cup dissolving it gives england etc.. a chance to test the second string sides in a midweek team and see how the new players of the moment fair up and who stakes a claim for XV. Also it allows fringe players time with in the 1st team environment with the same coaches as supposed to a completely different squad and coaches....its all much better for development. I also believe that although in a hostile distant environment the summer tour offers good chances to beat the SH boys, as they usually haven't had much time together with the NH teams having had more time to prepare....allowing results like Scotland vs Australia. By November the SH sides have had the Tri nations under there belt....they know the best team and are all used to playing with eachother with slow starting players like nonu and weepu flying at full tilt...while the NH will be rusty after a summer off and only two months of league action.

Tours are great, pressure grows as they go on, you don't have just one shot at the cherry and in essence its a war not a battle. There is far more at stake in series matches than one off tests and they tend to be better games because of it.. especially the 2nd tests as for one side, they'll be hanging on for sheer survival and that tends to breed a desperate choatic performance which is very entertaining.

If the SH teams were located close to each other than maybe a AI type series could work but due to the distances between venues its just not plausible.

thanks Doctor - was too lazy to look myself!

I like the AI format, each week is a new surprise. Not too phased about getting NH GSs. Wonder if two NH sides could travel to oz/nz and two to SA/Argie, and then swap after a game or two. Could add a bit of variety to the international window.

Ah good, Wales get a chance to nick some ranking points off Argentina and Samoa before being crushed by the All Blacks - then the Aus game may become a must win.

whocares wrote:thanks Doctor - was too lazy to look myself!

I had just openned the Planet Rugby website because I was wondering what Argentina was up to. Its good to see they are being involved are a proper national tour.

IFI had a choice a rotation system with a FULL old style Tour by Nz,Sa,Oz,Lions RWC .Just a matter of organization.

doctor_grey wrote:

whocares wrote:thanks Doctor - was too lazy to look myself!

I had just openned the Planet Rugby website because I was wondering what Argentina was up to. Its good to see they are being involved are a proper national tour.

am surprised that France only have one game against argentina...a bit boring if you ask me.

Personally I would love to have the SH sides come over an play a three test series against us in the Autumn, like we do against them in the Summer. But I think the national unions wouldn't like it as much, as they probably find it a better money spinner to have a different opposition each week. And in the end of the day the home unions are more about money than anything else.

I'd like a universal season across the world, starting in the third week of Febuary and ending in November.

We'd be away from the soccer season in most countries, the weather would be a lot better for most of us, which would attract crowds, as well as make the higher standard of rugby higher.

In rugby countries few tier 1 and 2 countries have any other serious competition for rugby as their second sport. It may well kill of rugby league in the Uk, but who cares.

whocares wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

whocares wrote:thanks Doctor - was too lazy to look myself!

I had just openned the Planet Rugby website because I was wondering what Argentina was up to. Its good to see they are being involved are a proper national tour.

am surprised that France only have one game against argentina...a bit boring if you ask me.

Agree. I think they are playing two matches this month in Argentina. Maybe that's why they are playing only one in the fall.

Since so many Argentines play in France, I bet it would have a bit extra local color and flavour when played in France.

I like the way it is this year. To me this is ideal. A tour and in the Autumn some variety.

The only thing that I would change would be to have Ireland play midweek matches in NZ. I know that the depth is not great and the players have had a ridiculously long season but it's wonderful to have these odd match ups of a club vs a country. They are really special.

Intotouch wrote:I like the way it is this year. To me this is ideal. A tour and in the Autumn some variety.

The only thing that I would change would be to have Ireland play midweek matches in NZ. I know that the depth is not great and the players have had a ridiculously long season but it's wonderful to have these odd match ups of a club vs a country. They are really special.

I tend to agree. I like this format as well. Having both in AI format means tests all over the place. Both in tour format removes the variety, particularly where there are mismatches. Of the 3 main SH tours Ireland should have had midweek matches to blood some new players. Pity the overall scheduling was inconsistent across the board.

Happy with things as they are for England this year with a proper 5 match tour and then the variety of challenges in the autumn. Midweek tour games are a great development tool.

Intotouch wrote:The only thing that I would change would be to have Ireland play midweek matches in NZ. I know that the depth is not great and the players have had a ridiculously long season but it's wonderful to have these odd match ups of a club vs a country. They are really special.

With the wolfcubs in SA, don't think Ireland have enough players left to field a second team! The gulf in class at Test level would be dwarfed by the difference in quality of the midweek teams. How would a three figure drubbing develop anyone?

I am not a fan on how SARU picked their midweek teams though.

Why did they only permit non SR players to be available for the matches... and thats not even players who are at SR clubs such as the bulls, WP etc who have Vodacom Cup/Currie Cup contracts but not SR? Its a sour taste to the tour.... backhanded tactics mainly.. not exactly sporting.

There are 2 ways of thinking about this.

The midweek games can either derail an entire tour for both teams (midweek & senior) or it can galvanise them. The SR teams have a month off, 1 game isn't going to hurt these guys who play week in week out. In fact it will probably help them to stay match fit.

Perhaps SARU were scared that ENG midweek side may beat the 2nd/3rd best bok teams and that would raise morale for the whole tour. Don't they see however how useful these games can be. Not only can they disrupt touring sides preparation, mental approach, they can also test out young players against some of the best players from other countries.

The same thing happened in 09 when the lions toured SA. It was in the Lions contract that the provinces would play their best players... but they backed out on this and the boks were able to withdraw 30 players from these games.... the eventuality.... the lions never got the tough matches, the momentum needed etc to make a real assault on the test series. #
You could have hosted the games in Cape Town & Bloemfontein perhaps and those matches would have sold decent numbers.. perhaps 20-30,000. Could have added to the whole tour, generated decent income and make ENG realise that nothing can be taken for granted.

If SARU held back the 30 squad players you could still have fielded the following

Coastal.

Joe Pietersen, Ndugane, De Jongh, Bosman, van der Heever, Grant, Duvenage, Botes, Deysel, Kolisi, Elstadt, Sykes, Harrs, Leibenberg, Carstens.

Northern

Taute, Ndugane, Ebersohn, Mapoe, van Rensburg, Ebersohn, van Zyl, Johnson, Brussow, Stander, van der Merve, Earle, Nel, Visagie, Greyling.

Believe me... those are decent sides and you still have injuries which would make them stronger/current senior players who wouldn't be in due to injuries such as Schalk, Smith, Bekker etc.
Perhaps the SR teams banned their players from playing... but it doesn't make sense given their test players will play 3 tests in the same period... as well as being the most important players in their domestic sides.

Look at the NZ Maori side... they always pack their side with the best and more often then not, turn touring sides over.

Actually I really like the way this summer has been planned. If Anything I would have prefferred no Babas game and perhaps a warm up against the Rebels or Force to blow away the cobwebs.

I would like to see three match series in the Autumn with a couple of matches against 2 of the regions. It evokes memories of 9-3 or more for me as I was there the win over the world champions in the 90s down at St Helens.

.

TycroesOsprey wrote:Actually I really like the way this summer has been planned. If Anything I would have prefferred no Babas game and perhaps a warm up against the Rebels or Force to blow away the cobwebs.

I would like to see three match series in the Autumn with a couple of matches against 2 of the regions. It evokes memories of 9-3 or more for me as I was there the win over the world champions in the 90s down at St Helens.

.

Tycroe, The only problem is that on the Saturday before the first test the Rebels and the Force have Super xv games, it would have to be mid week game on say the Wednesday before the test.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

TycroesOsprey wrote:Actually I really like the way this summer has been planned. If Anything I would have prefferred no Babas game and perhaps a warm up against the Rebels or Force to blow away the cobwebs.

I would like to see three match series in the Autumn with a couple of matches against 2 of the regions. It evokes memories of 9-3 or more for me as I was there the win over the world champions in the 90s down at St Helens.

.

Tycroe, The only problem is that on the Saturday before the first test the Rebels and the Force have Super xv games, it would have to be mid week game on say the Wednesday before the test.

well Im a very big advocate of sorting the season out so it is structured to accomodate things like that. Even if it meant moving the six nations. and quad nations around a bit to make it possible. I think thats somthing the IRB really need to look at for a whole host of reasons.

Another consideration that nobody has mentioned yet is filling the stadiums. Aus, NZ and SA can stage 3 matches in 3 weeks against the same side and fill 3 different stadiums in 3 different rugby mad cities. In the NH every country has its 1 home stadium and rarely plays elsewhere. Filling w.l.o.g. Twickenham 3 weeks in a row would probably rely on a lot of the same people coming back each week, which may get a bit boring for the fans seeing the same game again and again. It wouldn't be impossible to fill the grounds but I don't think the fans would be craving each match in the same way the SH fans do, purely due to the volume of matches. Moving matches in the NH means taking them to a significantly smaller ground or a football stadium, neither of which are ideal.

I like the current system best, it works well logistically and gives good variety. A game every year against each team plus a major tour. As other have said, it only really works when the NH sides take the tours seriously, no one wants to watch NZ stuff Wales 4ths over and over again.

Personally i can't wait for the tier 2 countries to become stronger so we can have some different fixtures instead of just rotating the same teams every single bloody year.

How will the tier 2 become stronger, when all the money is being directed at the top teams?

I would love a Southern Hemisphere side to tour Wales like back in the Old days, we could have a three match series and we could also let our regions have a crack at them as well.

LordDowlais wrote:I would love a Southern Hemisphere side to tour Wales like back in the Old days, we could have a three match series and we could also let our regions have a crack at them as well.

Or even a match against "The Valleys" in Merthyr eh LD.


Personally I think the tours are great - people on here and the BBC grumped about the loss of old-style tours, and the IRB actually listened for once and brought them back.

I'd have loved it if Ireland had some mid-week matches against say the Highlanders and 'Canes (seeing as the tests are being played in Auckland, Chch and Hamilton) - the small size of Super rugby squads might mean calling in reinforcements from club rugby to cover missing 1st choice ABs, but it would make a great spectacle.

And I'm happy for grand slam attemts to be less frequent - one attempt every 4 years holds up the exclusivity a bit more. While I've enjoyed the ABs knocking up 3 of them in 6 or 7 years , mixing in tours more would be good. The argument about national stadiums makes sense too, but playing say a 3 test series in England or France every few years (with 1 match played in the Manchester/Marseilles, and a test in say Scotland/Italy on one weekend of 4-test trip) would work well to vary things.

So you could have a program where an NH nation every other year (or just run them in non-RWC odd-numbered years) hosts 2 or 3 tests (the Celts & Italy might prefer 2-test series given the "1 national stadium" apprach to test) vs the SH.

I'm not much of a fan of the one-off tests. A series with some mid-week games probably is just as good in terms of revenue as sharing the SH brand out to the various NH nations. It also gives the NH teams a better chance of being competitive. For instance, I expect to see a great improvement this week in all of the NH teams.

Sort out the club and international season in both hemispheres and clear out the potential clashes. Set up regional conferences and have the winners play junior or A sides of the big nations.

The Great Aukster wrote:

Intotouch wrote:The only thing that I would change would be to have Ireland play midweek matches in NZ. I know that the depth is not great and the players have had a ridiculously long season but it's wonderful to have these odd match ups of a club vs a country. They are really special.

With the wolfcubs in SA, don't think Ireland have enough players left to field a second team! The gulf in class at Test level would be dwarfed by the difference in quality of the midweek teams. How would a three figure drubbing develop anyone?

It wouldn't. But in future, if there's any way possible to bring enough healthy players they should try to do this.

Kiwireddevil wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:I would love a Southern Hemisphere side to tour Wales like back in the Old days, we could have a three match series and we could also let our regions have a crack at them as well.

Or even a match against "The Valleys" in Merthyr eh LD.


Personally I think the tours are great - people on here and the BBC grumped about the loss of old-style tours, and the IRB actually listened for once and brought them back.

I'd have loved it if Ireland had some mid-week matches against say the Highlanders and 'Canes (seeing as the tests are being played in Auckland, Chch and Hamilton) - the small size of Super rugby squads might mean calling in reinforcements from club rugby to cover missing 1st choice ABs, but it would make a great spectacle.

And I'm happy for grand slam attemts to be less frequent - one attempt every 4 years holds up the exclusivity a bit more. While I've enjoyed the ABs knocking up 3 of them in 6 or 7 years , mixing in tours more would be good. The argument about national stadiums makes sense too, but playing say a 3 test series in England or France every few years (with 1 match played in the Manchester/Marseilles, and a test in say Scotland/Italy on one weekend of 4-test trip) would work well to vary things.

So you could have a program where an NH nation every other year (or just run them in non-RWC odd-numbered years) hosts 2 or 3 tests (the Celts & Italy might prefer 2-test series given the "1 national stadium" apprach to test) vs the SH.

Kiwi, let's not open up the valley's conundrum again . On a serious note though I used to love going to the Gnoll or the Arms Park to watch the tourists. I remember my old man taking me to St Helen's to watch Swansea beat the Ozzies, Stuart Davies was awsome that day. I am not old enough to remember the All Blacks game at Stradey but I am told that it was one heck of a day. I reckon we need to get these days back so that we can put the heart and soul back into this game we love so much.

I will always prefer test series over one off tests.

Teams have the opportunity to assess their performaces and that of the opposition to counter it during a series, in one off tests there is no such opportunity.

It is a far better reflection of one team's standing over another when it isn't based on one result.

One off tests are far more of an event and highlight the uniqueness of the sporting occasion

True, but one off tests can be won or lost on one decision in a three test series, it evens out and the result is not dependant on one decision, but performance measured over three matches.

I am definitely a fan of a multiple match series. It's a fantastic occasion. I am also a huge fan Of touring parties playing mid week matches.

That said if it were that we all started playing three test series in the autumn and the summer the IRB would have to increase the number of weeks the international window opens for. As it would be necessary to play a fourth warm up test. Mainly for the benefit of a lower tier nation. Else the lower tier nations would lack games in between world cups.