Scotland's Summer Tour

Once again I feel the scots have been overlooked for the Lions tour. 3 selections in a 37 man tour is disappointing particularly with the omissions of Grant and Brown. Clearly Toonie didn't make as much noise as Mark McCall did about his props at Saracens. Why did he champion Stevens and Vunipola and not Brown.

On the plus side it means we will be stronger for our tournament in South Africa and we can now look to focus our attentions to next years six nations and the development of our squad and gameplan. It will be good to have tonks having a run at fullback and we have second row options to replace Gray but we do seem a little short of wingers. Will also be good for continuity to have Brown lead us in South Africa.

How many do people think we will take on the tour, who would you take and what should our starting team be looking like? I'd rather discuss this than the Lions.

Time for Swinson, Tonks and Fife to get a shot at international level?

Kelly Brown and Ryan Grant have been shafted. Serious mistake by Gatland.

still glad to bring them to south Africa.

Ryan Grant is not as bad a miss as Brown

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Kelly Brown and Ryan Grant have been shafted. Serious mistake by Gatland.

still glad to bring them to south Africa.

It's just an opportunity for us to feel smug when we beat South Africa whilst the lions lose to Australia... and then we'll be brought back down to earth with a bump when we lose to Italy in the 3rd place play off

I was just about to post a topic when I spotted this thread, so I'll just paste what I wrote in here!

OK, so now we know who's made the Lions squad we can have a go at predicting Scotland's squad for the mini-tournament in South Africa.

To recap:

* Gray, Maitland and Hogg have been named in the Lions squad
* Bennett has been named in the under-20's squad for the JWC
* Weir has joined Cusiter and Ansbro on the long-term injury list
* No official info on the severity of Rennie's latest shoulder injury

The Scottish Lions representation is slightly smaller than I'd hoped for, but that gives us a chance to put out a strong side in this tournament. The only question mark is whether players on the Lions standby list will tour with their individual nations with the possibility of pulling out at short notice mid-tour to travel to Australia - or will they remain at home? For now I'm assuming everyone not otherwise accounted for will be available for selection, so here goes:

Props: Grant, Murray, Cross, Low, Dickinson
Hookers: Ford, MacArthur, Hall
Second Rows: Hamilton, Swinson, Kellock, Gilchrist
Back Rows: Brown, Harley, Barclay, Rennie (if fit), Beattie, Wilson

Scrum Halves: Laidlaw, Pyrgos, Kennedy
Stand-offs: Jackson, Heathcote
Centres: Scott, Horne, Dunbar, De Luca
Back 3: Visser, Lamont, Seymour, Tonks, Murchie.

There might still then be space to bring in some younger players who could benefit from the experience, for example Harry Leonard, Duncan Taylor or Chris Fusaro (if he turns out to be fit and Rennie turns out to be injured). Is there anyone else you think should be in there?

Lets hope this means the Scots teambuild well in the summer eady for an good go at next years 6N. The poor lions representation at least will help scotlands team to gel

Personally I would rather there were no Scots on the outdated concept that is the Lions but hey ho....well done to Hogg, Maitland and Gray.

I've stated numerous times before that I'd rather Scotland as a whole, toured than went on the Lions but the bulk of the squad will still be together for SA.

We should have a permanent head coach (Johnson ) by then with a few new coaching faces so it's a perfect opportunity to work together and put some game plans/tactics together ready for the AIs and 6N next year.

Pat_Mustard wrote:I was just about to post a topic when I spotted this thread, so I'll just paste what I wrote in here!

OK, so now we know who's made the Lions squad we can have a go at predicting Scotland's squad for the mini-tournament in South Africa.

To recap:

* Gray, Maitland and Hogg have been named in the Lions squad
* Bennett has been named in the under-20's squad for the JWC
* Weir has joined Cusiter and Ansbro on the long-term injury list
* No official info on the severity of Rennie's latest shoulder injury

The Scottish Lions representation is slightly smaller than I'd hoped for, but that gives us a chance to put out a strong side in this tournament. The only question mark is whether players on the Lions standby list will tour with their individual nations with the possibility of pulling out at short notice mid-tour to travel to Australia - or will they remain at home? For now I'm assuming everyone not otherwise accounted for will be available for selection, so here goes:

Props: Grant, Murray, Cross, Low, Dickinson
Hookers: Ford, MacArthur, Hall
Second Rows: Hamilton, Swinson, Kellock, Gilchrist
Back Rows: Brown, Harley, Barclay, Rennie (if fit), Beattie, Wilson

Scrum Halves: Laidlaw, Pyrgos, Kennedy
Stand-offs: Jackson, Heathcote
Centres: Scott, Horne, Dunbar, De Luca
Back 3: Visser, Lamont, Seymour, Tonks, Murchie.

There might still then be space to bring in some younger players who could benefit from the experience, for example Harry Leonard, Duncan Taylor or Chris Fusaro (if he turns out to be fit and Rennie turns out to be injured). Is there anyone else you think should be in there?

Would pretty much go with that squad you said there.
only possible changes would be at prop and take welsh instead of dickinson but apart from that pretty spot on to what I was thinking!

Do people think we should be taking Kellock? I'm not sure what it would achieve without him as captain. There are better rugby players than him, im not sure how many more caps he has in him and personally I would like to see Harley used there again as I think it is his best shot at an international future playing lock and not backrow.

I think it depends upon which side Welsh is willing to play. Hopefully he can be genuinely good on both sides, but at the moment he sees focused on playing tighthead.

With respect to Ross Rennie, I'd be tempted to leave him behind and let him get back to full fitness properly, same goes for David Denton. Those two can work alongside Ben Cairns over the summer at Edinburgh and get themselves fit and firing to compete for places in the AIs.

Alex Grove should go. I'd take him ahead of Nick De Luca personally, and I'd also take Leonard as cover at fly half, albeit principally for the experience.

Otherwise I think that's spot on.

That's in my opinion though. Scott Johnson rates Max Evans, so he might take him ahead of Seymour or Murchie, and expect to see Ali Strokosch go along as well, possibly at Harley or Wilson's expense.

Was gonna start a Scottish Lions thread but this thread is discussing it anyway.

First of all massive congratulations to Hogg, Maitland and Gray!

I really desperately feel for Kelly Brown though. If he’d missed out for Robshaw I would have understood. If he’d missed out for Wood I would have been disappointed but accepted it. To miss out to Lydiate – well that is just a kick in the nuts. He is much loved by the Welsh but not put on a pedestal quite as much outside of Wales. Yes he has his strengths and I’m sure the Welsh on here will defend him on the hilt, but 3 games for the Dragons is not enough to warrant a ‘selection on form only’ call over Kelly Brown or Robshaw.

Big disappointment for Grant too – again I understand Vainapolu but Matt Stevens is just a mystery.

I would suspect Grant, Laidlaw, Visser and Scott with be on the reserve list and may yet get selected depending on injuries.

I was so excited this morning but that selection has made me lose all enthusiasm. It will come back soon enough, but is still quite deflating!

DrTreasure wrote:Do people think we should be taking Kellock? I'm not sure what it would achieve without him as captain. There are better rugby players than him, im not sure how many more caps he has in him and personally I would like to see Harley used there again as I think it is his best shot at an international future playing lock and not backrow.

With Gray out I think he tours on merit. Hamilton and Swinson would be my starting pair though, with Gilchrist and Kellock as back-up. Possibly harsh on Tom Ryder - tough call.

yeah, totally forgot about Welsh! Yes I would definitely take him, even if he seems to be mostly a tighthead now, Low has moved the other way.

Good point about Grove, forgot about him but yes i would take him instead of De Luca. Grove definitely deserves another shot at the 13 jersey with Scotland. In the 4 caps he played before he was very good.

Agreed on Denton though to be honest on current form he doesn't deserve to be on tour with Scotland. He needs to get his attitude sorted and get his form back to where it was.

Oh well. Sad to say, we can pick an almost full strength team.

I would prefer:
1. Grant
2. MacArthur
3. Murray (against the Beast, at least)/Welsh otherwise
4. Hamilton
5. Swinson
6. Brown
7. Rennie (if leg still hanging off, Barclay)
8. Beattie

9. Laidlaw
10. Heathcote
11. Visser
12. Scott
13. Dunbar
14. Seymour
15. Tonks

Would love to see that lot give it a crack. Whether they would actually beat anyone on the other hand....

Nice of the Saffers to pile into this tournament with their nice new minty green away strip. Hopefully they will give lots of their new Super 15 gym monkeys a hit-out and we can see the new boys from each side really have a tear-up.

Edit: Balls. Forgot about Alex Dunbar. Grove bumped to the bench.

RDW_Scotland wrote:
I really desperately feel for Kelly Brown though. If he’d missed out for Robshaw I would have understood. If he’d missed out for Wood I would have been disappointed but accepted it. To miss out to Lydiate – well that is just a kick in the nuts. He is much loved by the Welsh but not put on a pedestal quite as much outside of Wales. Yes he has his strengths and I’m sure the Welsh on here will defend him on the hilt, but 3 games for the Dragons is not enough to warrant a ‘selection on form only’ call over Kelly Brown or Robshaw.

Big disappointment for Grant too – again I understand Vainapolu but Matt Stevens is just a mystery.

I think Stevens is going principally as a tighthead, albeit that he plays both sides (which will be very handy on the tour). This means he was likely up against Murray, Ross and Wilson. Frankly I'm not too fussed about that.

Grant was omitted for Vunipola, and if you saw him carry against Toulon and battle against Carl Hayman I think it's an understandable call. Grant must have been very close, but again I can understand the decision.

Brown can I think feel disappointed. The two blindside options picked are Croft and Lydiate, and he must have merited very close consideration up against those two, particularly after the 6 Nations. I was expecting Tom Wood to be first choice 6, so I think Brown can console himself that 6 must have been a jersey subject to "robst debate" as Gatland hinted. His ability to play across the backrow must mean that he's on stand bye.

Laidlaw and Scott were long shots, and Visser didn't deserve to tour, so I'm just pleased we have them fit and available for our tour. I don't think they'll be on the stand bye list personally.

Just to clarify my sense of deflation isn't just about the Scottish guys missing out - Hartley, Stevens, Lydiate and only 2 stand offs have also contributed to that!

I'd like to see Grove in the mix, but he doesn't seem to register at all on Johnson's radar for some reason, so I fully expect him to miss out. We actually have some decent options for centre in the not too distant future, with Scott, Dunbar, Horne, Grove and De Luca (yes I know but I still consider him a better option than Lamont), Taylor and Bennett on the horizon and hopefully Ansbro and Cairns to recover from injury. None of these are one-dimensional crash ball experts and most of them can play either 12 or 13. I'm pretty pleased with the way our midfield is heading

Sorry for going off topic but am I right in hearing that Gatland has said he hopes Hogg can fill in at 10 if required?? Surely a Lions tour isn’t the best place to find out?!

RDW_Scotland wrote:Sorry for going off topic but am I right in hearing that Gatland has said he hopes Hogg can fill in at 10 if required?? Surely a Lions tour isn’t the best place to find out?!

He did, he was being interviewed by Sky Sports at the time

RDW_Scotland wrote:Sorry for going off topic but am I right in hearing that Gatland has said he hopes Hogg can fill in at 10 if required?? Surely a Lions tour isn’t the best place to find out?!

I haven't seen a quote from Gatland mentioning Hogg as an option at 10. Utterly daft idea if so. He's a 15, and at a push an option at 13, but nothing else. That can't be right.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Sorry for going off topic but am I right in hearing that Gatland has said he hopes Hogg can fill in at 10 if required?? Surely a Lions tour isn’t the best place to find out?!

oh sweet jeesus please no.

That is what he said apparently. If it's going to be tried I'd rather see it in the last few minutes of a Lions midweek game than in a Scotland test or an important Glasgow match. So knock yourself out Warren!

I presume he means that they might go without any other fly half cover in some of the midweek games so that the starting test fly half can properly rest, but Hogg will only be used there if the midweek 10 gets injured, and in that case someone else would be called up for the tests. I would be amazed if he tried Hogg at 10 against Australia.

I'd be interested to see what happens...!

Isn't it crashingly obvious that Wilko is going to join after his team have won the Top 14 and Hines has helped kick Toulon in the nads in the HC final?

Just to bring the thread back on topic for a bit, I really hope that Johnson uses the tour as a development opportunity for certain players – MacArthur, Heathcote, Reid, Swinson, Kennedy, Dunbar, Horne, Seymour, Tonks, for example.

What will we learn from playing Ford or de Luca again? Very little we didn’t already know. With that in mind, this is my preferred team for the first game at least, one that brings in certain players but remains very competitive…

1. Grant, 2. MacArthur, 3. Low
4. Swinson, 5. Hamilton
6. Brown (c), 8. Wilson, 7. Barclay
9. Laidlaw, 10. Heathcote
12. Scott, 13. Dunbar
11. Visser, 15. Tonks, 14. S Lamont

Subs – Ford, Murray, Reid, Kellock, Harley, Kennedy, Horne, Seymour ]

Thoughts?

You guys will have more fun in SA anyway and will be welcomed with open arms and (unfortunately) a cold beer as we don't drink that stuff lukewarm.

Biltong wrote:You guys will have more fun in SA anyway and will be welcomed with open arms and (unfortunately) a cold beer as we don't drink that stuff lukewarm.

Biltong - just the man.

How is this small tournament being regarded in South Africa? Presumably as a chance to bring on all of your youngfellers?

Any sense of what the starting XV will look like? It can't just be the Bulls and Sharks can it? Cheetahs are playing some beautiful stuff at the moment and I think have more wins than any other SA side in this campaign?

George I don't think Meyer will take this lightly at all. You shouldn't expect much experimentation from him either, he is going in to win this, and will pick the best players avaiable, bar maybe one or two promising youngsters.

As for the mini tournament, hell it is rugby man, what do you think?

Will this be shown on TV, even in South Africa, as that would mean I could probably find an online stream?

My starting XV would probably look like

Grant
MacArthur
Welsh
Swinson
Hamilton
Brown
Rennie/Barclay
Beattie

Laidlaw
Heathcote
Visser
Scott
Dunbar
Lamont
Tonks

Ford, Low, Cross, Kellock, Wilson, Kennedy, Jackson, Horne

Of course mate, Supersport is the biggest broadcaster of rugby in the Woooooooorld.

Biltong wrote:Of course mate, Supersport is the biggest broadcaster of rugby in the Woooooooorld.

Good stuff, that will give me something to watch when I get bored of Wales vs Australia!

Pat_Mustard wrote:

Biltong wrote:Of course mate, Supersport is the biggest broadcaster of rugby in the Woooooooorld.

Good stuff, that will give me something to watch when I get bored of Wales vs Australia!

Sounds like a bad Rocky sequel

Wales vs Australia 8 - the revenge of the bish

I'll have more to contribute here tomorrow when the disapointment and bitterness has abated.

On a tenuously related note, can I just say that if our new Macron Scotland kits are as nicely designed and simple as this (perhaps with navy instead of minty green), then I'll be well happy: http://www.canterbury.com/springbok-alternate-test-p18290

And so will Mrs GC.

Quite classy , eh?

It is that Springbuck that makes it though.

Biltong wrote:Quite classy , eh?

It is that Springbuck that makes it though.

Captain_Sensible wrote:Just to bring the thread back on topic for a bit, I really hope that Johnson uses the tour as a development opportunity for certain players – MacArthur, Heathcote, Reid, Swinson, Kennedy, Dunbar, Horne, Seymour, Tonks, for example.

What will we learn from playing Ford or de Luca again? Very little we didn’t already know. With that in mind, this is my preferred team for the first game at least, one that brings in certain players but remains very competitive…

1. Grant, 2. MacArthur, 3. Low
4. Swinson, 5. Hamilton
6. Brown (c), 8. Wilson, 7. Barclay
9. Laidlaw, 10. Heathcote
12. Scott, 13. Dunbar
11. Visser, 15. Tonks, 14. S Lamont

Subs – Ford, Murray, Reid, Kellock, Harley, Kennedy, Horne, Seymour ]

Thoughts?

Looks like a good side. Interesting you have picked Wilson over Beattie. I'd love to see killer b's getting good game time as they are a brilliantly balanced back row who know each other well and if all playing on form could be a massive asset to us. I also still think dunbars best position is inside centre and will be interesting to see how him and Scott work together. I still think de Luca has an international future and when at his best is better than grove although I do rate grove and was disappointed that it didn't work for him at Edinburgh. That back 3 looks pretty dangerous and Lamont showed against the ospreys he can still be a real threat on the wing. Please don't take him as a centre, we need to move on from that internationally. I also think Laidlaw may find his position more under threat if heathcote can prove he can kick reliably on the international stage.

With regard Hogg I think it a good thing they are seeing him as flexible. I want to see him get good game time out there as the experience will be invaluable for him at his age. No reason he couldn't do a job at 10, he often comes in to that position for Glasgow, has great hands and a big boot. The more versatile he shows himself to be the better and it's a compliment to his skill set that they are considering that option.

It's a shame they don't set up a couple of midweek games on our tour so as to get players game time and look at options. Make a proper tour out of it.

Another thought is if Horne will be considered at 10, his only real flaw there is his goal kicking and if that is covered by Laidlaw he might be a good option there. When I have seen him there for Glasgow he has done well and I don't feel Jackson will ever be consistent or reliable enough for international rugby which is a shame as when he does have a good game he is excellent, Glasgow against Munster a good example.

In a fantasy world, and I realise there are financial restrictions but a Scottish lions type tour might be a good one for developing our rugby. Take a large squad with several midweek games around the three test games. Take a few bolters from the club scene due to get professional contracts. May be a good way of introducing players into professional rugby and if done every four years would be something for guys coming through to aspire towards. Imagine how great it would be to be on a tour like that!

The one positive from this from our point of view is that there will be a few guys in our squad who will be incredibly dissapointed. If Johnson can channel that dissapointment into a psychopathic disregard for ones well being in pursuit of proving Gatland wrong through their performances over the next year, I'd worry for who they will come up against.

If it makes Grant, Brown, Laidlaw, Scott, Visser, Ford, Hamilton, and Beattie take their games to new levels, then theres hope.

Hi guys can someone please tell me what exactly Scotland will be doing in South Africa?

I've looked on the SRU website and planet rugby, and the BBC and can see nothing mentioned about any tour or fixtures!

Any information on the tournament would be greatly appreciated!

Shifty wrote:Hi guys can someone please tell me what exactly Scotland will be doing in South Africa?

I've looked on the SRU website and planet rugby, and the BBC and can see nothing mentioned about any tour or fixtures!

Any information on the tournament would be greatly appreciated!

its a quadrangular tournament with South africa samoa and italy. Each team plays two others, others and then a third according to the previous results. We play SA and samoa and then its 1st vs 2nd and 3rd vs 4th, so we may play italy, or we may play SA or samoa twice.

Although I am gutted by the lack of Scots touring Aussie, I am a lucky lucky boy! I get to watch two fantastic rugby tournaments this summer and support my two teams Scotland and Australia.

I am really looking forward to the Quadrangular tournament in SA. Getting to play two of Scotland's WC group teams is fantastic and I really want to see them have a go.

1. Grant
2. Ford
3. Murray
4. Swinson
5. Hamilton
6. Brown
7. Barclay
8. Beattie
9. Laidlaw
10. Heathcote (unless jackson turns it up a notch)
11. Visser
12. Scott
13. Dunbar
14. Lamont
15. Tonks

That team can win the tournament or come close to it.

Just out of interest, is anyone thinking of flying down to SA for any of the games? If I had the money I would be there in a heart beat!

Imperialbigdave wrote:its a quadrangular tournament with South africa samoa and italy. Each team plays two others, others and then a third according to the previous results. We play SA and samoa and then its 1st vs 2nd and 3rd vs 4th, so we may play italy, or we may play SA or samoa twice.

Thanks I appreciate the reply.
Ouch, I'm glad Wales are in Japan now!

Take plenty of players... and body bags!
Take Nigel Owens and Allain Rowlands also, god help you if you get a Newzealand or Aussie ref for the Samoa game!

George Carlin wrote:On a tenuously related note, can I just say that if our new Macron Scotland kits are as nicely designed and simple as this (perhaps with navy instead of minty green), then I'll be well happy: http://www.canterbury.com/springbok-alternate-test-p18290

And so will Mrs GC.

Looks lovely! Excited to see what new ones look like. By the way, i was looking on that site and Scotland home jerseys are super cheap! As are shorts and the polo shirts. http://www.canterbury.com/scotland-home-pro-jersey-navy-p13372

Was really looking forward to tourament before the Welsh tour of Australia was announced but even more so now. I hope Brown Barclay & Beattie play a few times, also want to see Horne and Dunbar start at least once... also looking forward to Tonks gearing up