My Questions About Ireland

First topic message reminder :

Yeah, listen mods and fellow posters, sorry to start another thread about Ireland. I do apologise Just feel having some separate yet parallel discussions would benefit the site. Things can get a bit sidetracked on the main thread, actual discussion becomes hard.

ANYWAY, I have some questions about the Ireland team.

-Is Chris Henry injured or is he just fifth choice?
-Why keep McFadden but drop Zebo?
-Who is going to cover fullback?
-Was O'Mahony really worse than Heaslip?
-Can we win without quicker service from 9? Really expected to see Reddan not Murray. Although I would persevere with Murray (he is the future)

These things leave me with serious doubts but well done Kidney for keeping the faith with Tuohy and Murray. Kind of feel dropping Zebo is a really reactionary call. McFadden was much worse for me. Agree with the recall of Trimble, not mad about D'Arcy but once you were going to keep McFadden on the wing he was the only option. Harsh though it is, I'm glad to see Loughney out of the 22. Wish him well but he cost us last time. Dropping Cave is harsh but he had a brief chance and he definitely didn't take that chance so it's the right call. Hopefully we'll see him in the third test.

Where have you been the past few days anyway rodders? Haven't seen ya much. You missed billy in the pub thread.

Was in Dublin yesterday Rory...was Billy in the pub?...saw he posted in the thread.

Great to see him back!

Oh that's cool, did you have fun?

Yeah he was in the pub yesterday for a tiny bit. I told him you would be raging that you missed him!

Ha yeah just looked back there...good old Billy...waits until I'm out to make his comeback

Just to cheer up all the Irish, I noticed this on the BBC site about the Olympic Torch.

"World Irish Dancing Champion Lauren Wales, 13, from Blaydon on Tyne, carried the flame through Loanhead in Midlothian."

The IRISH Dancing World Champion is

(1) English

(2) Called "Wales"

(3) Carrying the Olympic Flame in Scotland!

aucklandlaurie wrote: What I dont understand is why Notch had to start this thread, Its no different to any of the other NZ v Ireland threads, in other words its an argument about Kidney or Irish selections.

It's not an argument. It's a debate. Thats a small but important difference. Opinions being respected- it's been going ok so far.

Intotouch wrote:I'm watching the soccer team now playing the world champions. When I came in the commentary were talking about how great the Irish lads were playing and that they were only down one nil.

I hate that attitude. Spain aren't World Champions because they're happy with losing, doesn't matter who to. Obviously the gulf in talent is huge. But winners refuse to accept the impossible. Once you accept your limitations your beaten in your own mind. You've got to want to go past those limitations.

aucklandlaurie wrote: Rory
I did read it, I did think Sin e , has done real well hes had a pretty good posse tracking him for a week now and no ones laid a hand on him.

Gota admit though I dont understand half of it.

Thanks for the compliment Laurie, but in fairness its not hard to stay ahead of that rabble

PS - none of them understand it either, so I wouldn't worry !


Don't worry lads, I'm outa here

Ahaaaa we've been rumbled.

Sin you do love your notoriety don't you. You're a naughty and mischievous boy and we need a virtual naughty step for you.

Anyway, back on topic, I've had a chance to settle my thoughts and gather them up and I am still in a world of confusion. Well at least our scrums should go pretty well

Notch wrote:It's not an argument. It's a debate. Thats a small but important difference. Opinions being respected- it's been going ok so far.

Im not sure it is. What it seems to me is that the Irish threads are basically just a place to gather and criticise the coaches in a very emotive way.

I find if you put forward other ideas the threads are too emotive to be mere debates.

We are sports fans Stag. We genuinely care about this team. What do you expect to happen?

Right now, Irish Rugby at international level is at a place we all wanted to have seen the last of. It's regressing, it's being exposed badly and we are becoming a bit of a laughing stock to some other countries. There would be something seriously wrong if these threads weren't emotive. If no-one gave a shoite we could analyse it dispassionately, debate it dispassionately, but it hurts too much to do that. I'm happy we do care.

What exactly do you expect Stag?

Anyway, back to this thread.

Was O’Mahoney really worse than Heaslip, yes. Heaslip put in a much better defensive performance than POM. Now, that doesn’t mean POM doesn’t deserve another chance, I just don’t think he played as good as Heaslip. I’d like to see a backrow with Henry – O’Brien – McLaughlin. It would give us a workhorse, a ball carrier and a lineout option, all 3 will have good tackle counts play link man comfortably.

I am happy we care too Notch. I just feel that although Kidney is doing a bad job there are other issues that get swept under the carpet as its easy to just crib about Kidney.

For example:

- Our players are not used to playing week in week out. Our top performers are the guys who are used to building towards a 2 week window and delivering then. This is one reason I feel Ireland never seem to just perform for three, four, five performances in a row. For the ERC we get such big rest periods between the games and I wonder how our guys would do if the 6 Heineken Cup pool matches, quarters, semi and final were played out in say a 12 week period.

- This foreign prop issue we have created. Ulster have had a foreign tighthead since 2008 and will continue to have one until 2013. Munster have two foreign props. Leinster have had an army of foreign props for years. We ignore our props that are based abroad.

- Maybe Heineken Cup level isn't the same as International Level. People often say that it is Test Level Intensity and Im sure on occasion thats true. But overall it very much is not the case. Not every team has first choice international class players from 1-15.

- Late Developers. There is an issue with Ireland not picking young players but there is equally an issue that many of our guys are well into their 20s before they are really good enough. I know Ulsters John Afoa said he couldnt believe how under developed schools players were in contrast to back home and in contrast to England (finished runner up in 3 of last 4 Junior RWC) or even Wales (second Junior RWC semi finals since 2008) we don't seem to be really developing these guys until later with use of British & Irish Cup and the Celtic League.

- Provinces v Clubs. I'll be told I am wrong but Ireland is tribal. Its about the locality, the parish and the provinces have bought into that. The fans get behind the province losing much easier than their country losing. When the provinces win the atmosphere is a thousand times better. I brought Glas a Du and rugbydreamer to Aviva for Wales v Ireland and they were amazed at lack of Irish noise and shouting in what was a really tight match. Most of our squad was trying to pyshce themselves up for the ERC Final just three-four weeks ago and they need to now find another well of passion for New Zealand. These guys need a break.

I feel that trying to points like these on the boards gets you labelled as pro-Kidney or posters misunderstand and think you are ok with Kidney. Although he is doing poorly and needs replacing, there is far from 1 reason that we are struggling internationally. Replacing him with Joe Schmidt wont necessarily win us a Slam every year. One Kidney (and indeed Steady Eddie) issue that I would have is that international rugby is about a squad of players not the same players all the time. You need to rotate to keep players fresh; both mentally and physically.

Mickado wrote:
Was O’Mahoney really worse than Heaslip, yes. Heaslip put in a much better defensive performance than POM.

I agree with this. I thought O'Mahony was very poor.

I agree with all of that. I've also got to say, I feel like the passionate support we have makes such a difference to our provincial teams. But our support at international level must be a handicap; it's all expectation and pressure without any of the passion we see in the Pro12 and Heineken Cup.

Mind you, against New Zealand the one area we really competed well (or at least for 55 mins) was the scrums, second best everywhere else. Not that tighthead isn't a problem. It is. But I feel it's less of an issue than some other things we're doing around the park.

Thing is, Kidney and his selections are front and centre. It takes incisive thinking to look at that and all the factors from grassroots up at the same time and I'm not saying the vast majority of posters can't do that. They all can. But when your team loses and you're hurting, and you want to vent some of your frustration you aren't going to pick on the Academy structure...

red_stag wrote:I am happy we care too Notch. I just feel that although Kidney is doing a bad job there are other issues that get swept under the carpet as its easy to just crib about Kidney.

For example:

- Our players are not used to playing week in week out. Our top performers are the guys who are used to building towards a 2 week window and delivering then. This is one reason I feel Ireland never seem to just perform for three, four, five performances in a row. For the ERC we get such big rest periods between the games and I wonder how our guys would do if the 6 Heineken Cup pool matches, quarters, semi and final were played out in say a 12 week period.

- This foreign prop issue we have created. Ulster have had a foreign tighthead since 2008 and will continue to have one until 2013. Munster have two foreign props. Leinster have had an army of foreign props for years. We ignore our props that are based abroad.

- Maybe Heineken Cup level isn't the same as International Level. People often say that it is Test Level Intensity and Im sure on occasion thats true. But overall it very much is not the case. Not every team has first choice international class players from 1-15.

- Late Developers. There is an issue with Ireland not picking young players but there is equally an issue that many of our guys are well into their 20s before they are really good enough. I know Ulsters John Afoa said he couldnt believe how under developed schools players were in contrast to back home and in contrast to England (finished runner up in 3 of last 4 Junior RWC) or even Wales (second Junior RWC semi finals since 2008) we don't seem to be really developing these guys until later with use of British & Irish Cup and the Celtic League.

- Provinces v Clubs. I'll be told I am wrong but Ireland is tribal. Its about the locality, the parish and the provinces have bought into that. The fans get behind the province losing much easier than their country losing. When the provinces win the atmosphere is a thousand times better. I brought Glas a Du and rugbydreamer to Aviva for Wales v Ireland and they were amazed at lack of Irish noise and shouting in what was a really tight match. Most of our squad was trying to pyshce themselves up for the ERC Final just three-four weeks ago and they need to now find another well of passion for New Zealand. These guys need a break.

I feel that trying to points like these on the boards gets you labelled as pro-Kidney or posters misunderstand and think you are ok with Kidney. Although he is doing poorly and needs replacing, there is far from 1 reason that we are struggling internationally. Replacing him with Joe Schmidt wont necessarily win us a Slam every year. One Kidney (and indeed Steady Eddie) issue that I would have is that international rugby is about a squad of players not the same players all the time. You need to rotate to keep players fresh; both mentally and physically.

Very good post Stag. Correct on all accounts .

Stag, they’re all fair points. But on the foreign prop crisis. Let’s just talk about that for a sec.

There’s a committee set up within the IRFU to rubber stamp all foreign imports. The clubs want to win, and if we don’t have the quality of prop available to us to win silverware then the obvious solution is look beyond our shores. This committee, I can’t remember the name, has given the go ahead for every foreign prop currently plying their trade in Ireland. Why can’t anyone from the coaching ticket a) be on this committee or b) be consulted by this committee?

Should we just take a leaf out of the Welsh/Kiwi book and blame the referees instead of blaming coach . . . .

No, as much as your points above are correct our coaches are still rubbish .

Mickado wrote:Stag, they’re all fair points. But on the foreign prop crisis. Let’s just talk about that for a sec.

There’s a committee set up within the IRFU to rubber stamp all foreign imports. The clubs want to win, and if we don’t have the quality of prop available to us to win silverware then the obvious solution is look beyond our shores. This committee, I can’t remember the name, has given the go ahead for every foreign prop currently plying their trade in Ireland. Why can’t anyone from the coaching ticket a) be on this committee or b) be consulted by this committee?

Mick I didnt know that. I think it would be great.

I think that there is nothing wrong with having foreign props per say. However why not farm our young props out to Championship or Premiership sides in England where they play professional every week learning to scrum. We then bring them back home.

rodders wrote:No, as much as your points above are correct our coaches are still rubbish .

They are rubbish. I do agree on that.

red_stag wrote:

Mickado wrote:Stag, they’re all fair points. But on the foreign prop crisis. Let’s just talk about that for a sec.

There’s a committee set up within the IRFU to rubber stamp all foreign imports. The clubs want to win, and if we don’t have the quality of prop available to us to win silverware then the obvious solution is look beyond our shores. This committee, I can’t remember the name, has given the go ahead for every foreign prop currently plying their trade in Ireland. Why can’t anyone from the coaching ticket a) be on this committee or b) be consulted by this committee?

Mick I didnt know that. I think it would be great.

I think that there is nothing wrong with having foreign props per say. However why not farm our young props out to Championship or Premiership sides in England where they play professional every week learning to scrum. We then bring them back home.

Less drastically, why not allow them to play AIL? As far as i know each AIL club is only allowed to have 2 pro players on their books, which means that the likes of Hagan, Cronin, Kilcoyne etc. Are waiting for a raft of injuries to get them a provincial call up, or B&I cup games. Surely there aren't enough cup games to keep them going, and allow them to learn thier trade. Let them play AIL against some grizzled 35 year olds who are going to punch them / pull their nose / lick their ear or whatever else they get upto in the front row.

The IRFU love to control their assets, this would allow them do continue to do so while providing better prepared young Irish props to the provinces and ultimately to the national team.

The provincial sides are all playing some great rugby, it's been a great season for us all to greater and lesser degrees. The thing is our provinces are all playing different styles of rugby, playing to their own strengths obviously but all under the control of different coaching teams.
I read an article about the way the coaching teams from all the NZ franchises come together for the good of the national side, I can't remember the specifics but it meant that NZ players as a whole were playing a more cohesive style of rugby week in, week out.
Can this be applied in Ireland or are we far too intent on beating eachother to the silverware?

Pete if it's anything like some of the posts on here then there's no chance of national cohesion and unity.

That's a good idea Pete. But it assumes the best coach is at the top. Can you imagine Kidney (formally) telling Joe Schmidt how to coach Leinster? There would be holy jihad.

That'd be the first time sh(one)t rolled uphill Mick

I think I remember from the article something like the Kiwi coaches all saying that it was all for the good of the national side that they all played a similar brand of rugby which was the brand that influenced how the national side was coached as opposed to how we do it in Ireland. Let the lunatic run the asylum.

Pete330v2 wrote:That'd be the first time sh(one)t rolled uphill Mick

I think I remember from the article something like the Kiwi coaches all saying that it was all for the good of the national side that they all played a similar brand of rugby which was the brand that influenced how the national side was coached as opposed to how we do it in Ireland. Let the lunatic run the asylum.

I definitely think that would help, but the brand of rugby would have to be dictated by the national coach, i.e. this is the way we want the national team to play, now build this into your provincial systems. But at this moment, if that was to happen we'd be in the same state at international level but our provinces would have no silverware.

Mickado wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:That'd be the first time sh(one)t rolled uphill Mick

I think I remember from the article something like the Kiwi coaches all saying that it was all for the good of the national side that they all played a similar brand of rugby which was the brand that influenced how the national side was coached as opposed to how we do it in Ireland. Let the lunatic run the asylum.

I definitely think that would help, but the brand of rugby would have to be dictated by the national coach, i.e. this is the way we want the national team to play, now build this into your provincial systems. But at this moment, if that was to happen we'd be in the same state at international level but our provinces would have no silverware.

God yeah. 'How slow do you want us to play Dekkie ?'

This is a great contribution to the thread Stag and I just wanted to pick up on a few points to see what people reckon.

red_stag wrote: Our players are not used to playing week in week out. Our top performers are the guys who are used to building towards a 2 week window and delivering then. This is one reason I feel Ireland never seem to just perform for three, four, five performances in a row. For the ERC we get such big rest periods between the games and I wonder how our guys would do if the 6 Heineken Cup pool matches, quarters, semi and final were played out in say a 12 week period.

I'm really glad you have picked up on this as I have been spouting this line in regards the Heineken Cup now for weeks upon weeks and no English fan in particular wants to engage with it properly. In the aftermath of Wasps last winning the competition Lawrence Dallaglio specifically said that it was the intensity and physicality of the Premiership that gave his side the edge in tight European matches. Now it is used as an excuse for poor performances? Its nonsense it my opinion. It is only a perception of strength for us because Leinster are winning. They were unbelievably fortunate to beat Clermont and had they lost we might well be sitting here and saying 'Well Schidmt has it wrong, the players were unprepared having not played enough rugby'. Top players need matches to be conditioned for top matches and no amount of training can make up for it. For sure, in the case of let's say Stephen Ferris, Brian O'Driscoll, Mike Ross and Paul O'Connell they need to be managed more. But I don't see any conceivable reason why Heaslip, O'Brien, Ryan, Best, Healy, O'Mahony etc etc should not play every week. However, what about the younger players? For four clubs (three and half often in reality) we actually have a large pool of players. What about the talent in Leinster's centres, Madigan, about half a dozen talented back rowers, the young Ulster props. What do we do with these guys if we keep flogging the same players week in, week out. A balance has to be struck and overall I think the provinces do an excellent job.

I won't even touch the propping statement as I can't imagine a sane fan to disagree. We actually have some good talented props emerged at Ulster, and from what I have seen at Leinster. I can't comment on the other provinces as I do not know about them in this regard.

red_stag wrote:Maybe Heineken Cup level isn't the same as International Level. People often say that it is Test Level Intensity and Im sure on occasion thats true. But overall it very much is not the case. Not every team has first choice international class players from 1-15.

I would have to slightly disagree with this Stag. I think you are probably right about the intensity and certainly the pressure of international rugby. I think it is certainly arguable that the quality of the Heineken Cup is often times higher than anything we see certainly in the Six Nations. Really since the Welsh Grand Slam of 2005 in which they played some really superb attacking rugby, we have seen one tournament of dirge after another. Games have been exciting because they have been close going into the final minutes, such as Ireland and Wales this season, but was the quality really all that good? I don't think so. We know our players have the skills to play quality rugby. I think the culture of our players at international rugby is completely wrong. I have said this elsewhere this week but I watch a team who visibly struggle to carry the weight of the green jersey. I see a team that is afraid of the consequences of their decisions in matches, a team set up not to lose rather than set up to win. It is the Kidney mentality that is damaging this team in this regard and a more positive coach could merely work wonders picking exactly the same side as our current coach.

red_stag wrote:Late Developers. There is an issue with Ireland not picking young players but there is equally an issue that many of our guys are well into their 20s before they are really good enough. I know Ulsters John Afoa said he couldnt believe how under developed schools players were in contrast to back home and in contrast to England (finished runner up in 3 of last 4 Junior RWC) or even Wales (second Junior RWC semi finals since 2008) we don't seem to be really developing these guys until later with use of British & Irish Cup and the Celtic League

Here's the problem Stag, what is the solution? Do we set scientists to the task of changing a nation's genetics to make us more like the Pacific Islanders? Do we change the gym culture and encourage 'gym monkeys' like the young England sides? Since 2003 England have been absolutely dreadful at senior level, let's not beat about the bush about this. The Welsh on the other hand, like us, have tried to pick players based on raw talent and basic skills. They have been on the wrong end of some awful hammerings from England and France at underage level, just as we have. They have three Grand Slams since 2003, we have one, England none. I don't care when players mature. If they are 27-28, great. Get them in the side then. If they are 20-22 even better.

red_stag wrote:Provinces v Clubs. I'll be told I am wrong but Ireland is tribal. Its about the locality, the parish and the provinces have bought into that. The fans get behind the province losing much easier than their country losing. When the provinces win the atmosphere is a thousand times better. I brought Glas a Du and rugbydreamer to Aviva for Wales v Ireland and they were amazed at lack of Irish noise and shouting in what was a really tight match. Most of our squad was trying to pyshce themselves up for the ERC Final just three-four weeks ago and they need to now find another well of passion for New Zealand. These guys need a break.

I just want to add the caveat here that this is totally an unscientific opinion and I hop it doesn't come across as sweeping or crass, and if anyone takes offence I will try and explain this better if need be. It strikes me that actually, as a country, the south of Ireland is tribal in all sport and rugby is no different. I thought it might have something to do with GAA where localism and county support is fundamental in both hurling and Gaelic football. I think perhaps religion or background might play somewhat of a role to an extent given traditional attachments from either community to Gaelic games. With rugby in Northern Ireland predominately a Protestant sport, though that is certainly changing, we don't have anywhere near the same attachment to same sort of parochialism. Even on these boards I don't detect the same provincialism as from some fans from other provinces. I can only speak for myself here, but if someone asked me would I rather have Ireland or Ulster succeed I would answer Ireland everyday and twice on Sunday. I get the impression that some fans in Leinster and Munster would have to give this some serious thought. Of course I am not generalising here all Leinster or Munster fans as that would be absurd. What I am suggesting is that it might be a sizeable and vocal minority that would make up a higher proportion of their fans as it would to ours (as obviously such a feeling exists among Ulster fans, I am just suggesting we might have fewer).

Anyway that last point was just a thought and I wondered what people thought about it. I am quite prepared for people to say 'nonsense' about it.

Anyway, a further point I wanted to say is that I miss amateur Ireland. There, I've said it. Some of us (and I'm not yet thirty) can remember really bad Ireland sides in the late 80's/early 90s. I mean, they were really bad and no doubt some older fans could point out even worse sides. Maybe recent success has raised our expectations too much. But there is on thing you could always guarantee about Ireland, amateur or professional. If you played them, not matter how inferior, you would get a performance driven by passion. You could guarantee 60 minutes of real intense passion fuelled rugby before the inevitable blow out. I'm really sad to see that gone. Even under Eddie O'Sullivan you could see it in the players. The first season under Kidney is was abundantly clear they players had it. I just don't see it now. Maybe the confidence in the players is so low, the results so poor that under that weight they just simply cannot perform. Forget selections, forget tactics, it is this reason that I want to see Declan Kidney replaced.

red_stag wrote:I am happy we care too Notch. I just feel that although Kidney is doing a bad job there are other issues that get swept under the carpet as its easy to just crib about Kidney.

For example:

- Our players are not used to playing week in week out. Our top performers are the guys who are used to building towards a 2 week window and delivering then. This is one reason I feel Ireland never seem to just perform for three, four, five performances in a row. For the ERC we get such big rest periods between the games and I wonder how our guys would do if the 6 Heineken Cup pool matches, quarters, semi and final were played out in say a 12 week period.

- This foreign prop issue we have created. Ulster have had a foreign tighthead since 2008 and will continue to have one until 2013. Munster have two foreign props. Leinster have had an army of foreign props for years. We ignore our props that are based abroad.

- Maybe Heineken Cup level isn't the same as International Level. People often say that it is Test Level Intensity and Im sure on occasion thats true. But overall it very much is not the case. Not every team has first choice international class players from 1-15.

- Late Developers. There is an issue with Ireland not picking young players but there is equally an issue that many of our guys are well into their 20s before they are really good enough. I know Ulsters John Afoa said he couldnt believe how under developed schools players were in contrast to back home and in contrast to England (finished runner up in 3 of last 4 Junior RWC) or even Wales (second Junior RWC semi finals since 2008) we don't seem to be really developing these guys until later with use of British & Irish Cup and the Celtic League.

- Provinces v Clubs. I'll be told I am wrong but Ireland is tribal. Its about the locality, the parish and the provinces have bought into that. The fans get behind the province losing much easier than their country losing. When the provinces win the atmosphere is a thousand times better. I brought Glas a Du and rugbydreamer to Aviva for Wales v Ireland and they were amazed at lack of Irish noise and shouting in what was a really tight match. Most of our squad was trying to pyshce themselves up for the ERC Final just three-four weeks ago and they need to now find another well of passion for New Zealand. These guys need a break.

I feel that trying to points like these on the boards gets you labelled as pro-Kidney or posters misunderstand and think you are ok with Kidney. Although he is doing poorly and needs replacing, there is far from 1 reason that we are struggling internationally. Replacing him with Joe Schmidt wont necessarily win us a Slam every year. One Kidney (and indeed Steady Eddie) issue that I would have is that international rugby is about a squad of players not the same players all the time. You need to rotate to keep players fresh; both mentally and physically.

I don't agree with everything you say here Stag to be honest, you make some good points but not all of them are true IMO.

1) Our players are not used to playing week in week out. This is a fair point. I think that you could even see how knackered and unfit our guys looked compared to NZ last weekend, and maybe lacking in game time. However, who is it that dictates how many games the irish players play for their provinces? The IRFU.

2) This foreign prop issue we have created. Again, a fair point, but we never really looked past John Hayes when he was in his prime and luckily we had Mike Ross pop up at just the right time. The problem was quickly swept under the carpet, only to surface when we end up with a loosehead playing tighthead against England. Now the panic starts. As I have pointed out, the IRFU have a large say on these sorts of things, so why have they just ignored the problem? For what it is worth, I think we have an absolute gem of a tighthead in Furlong, who I hope Leinster develop ASAP.

3) Maybe Heineken Cup level isn't the same as International Level. This is the main sort of thing I never understand. Why wouldn't it be? Not every international team has great players 1-15. Not every team gels perfectly either. Some teams don't have the world's best players, but they are a great team because they know how to play as one. You see the England team and they play as they would in the premiership generally. You see an SA side coached by an ex-Bulls coach, and they play similar to the Bulls. You have an ex-Munster coach in charge of Ireland, and we play an outdated style popularised by the Munster of old. You have NZ play with the same pace they do in their clubs. Why would Wales and Australia suddenly improve internationally, if it is such a step up? Because they are structured better, and can play to their strengths. I think SH rugby isn't the same as NH rugby.

4) Late Developers. You are generalising here. I made the point in a different thread that the young Munster forwards seem VERY under developed. They are very light. The U20s back row this year, which consists entirely of Leinster players, collectively are much bigger than anything Munster have played in their back row this season. That is pretty crazy, that boys are bigger than professional rugby players. I would say Munster and Ulster don't seem to be good at developing their youth, but you can't say the same of Leinster when you look at the players they are producing.

5) Provinces v Clubs. Speak for yourself Stag. The first game I ever attended in rugby was Ireland vs Australia, the debut of Andrew Trimble. I had never been to an Ulster game, and it stayed like that for a few years before I saw my first Ulster game. I am very much an Ireland fan, and generally I feel more passionate about Ireland than Ulster. The gap is getting smaller, but I think I will always be just as passionate about Ireland as I am Ulster. You seem to be frustrated when Ireland fans on here complain, well passion goes both ways. Nobody is happy with how we are playing, and many of us are angry about it. Irish rugby is being ruined by a clueless man in charge IMO, and some of the comments he has come out with since the weekend show he is just totally out of his depth and needs to go. He is now causing lasting damage to the team.

Rory, on point 3 generally we have the following mentality in NZ: provincial rugby is a step up from club rugby. Super rugby is a step up from provincial rugby and test rugby is a step up from Super rugby. In each case, it's not to so much the players that's a step up but rather the pace of the game. In each step up you have fractionally less time to react and that can take a toll on performances. Things you might be able to get away with a step down are not possible a step up - like laboured passing - and your reaction times are slightly less. So a player that seems to have all the time in the world in provincial rugby seems hurried and less consistent in decision making in test rugby. The difference is not day and night but it is nonetheless appreciable.

Maybe the kicking of Ireland is so poor because the time they have on the kick is just that fraction less than in provincial rugby. I'm not saying Sexton for example is not good enough for test rugby but I do think he is afforded more freedom to dictate play in a Leicester shirt because his pack is dominating more and the defence is reaching him a fraction later.

Rory do you really believe that the way we play the game is similar to what won Munster those Heineken Cups?

Munster played an entirely different brand of rugby to win their HCs. I don't think we ever played the kind of rugby Ireland play now.



Also, I don't have a huge problem with kicking the ball away for territory. If you watch the first 20 minutes we actually did it pretty effectively. Kicking for the corners can work up to a certain extent, and we were doing well when we employed. The problem is those feicing garryowens, and pointless kicks that go straight to the opposition, it's not playing for position or anything it's just giving the ball back to them.

red_stag wrote:Rory do you really believe that the way we play the game is similar to what won Munster those Heineken Cups?

Nope, I believe that is what Kidney has been trying to turn this team into from the start though. Atm we are just a complete utter shambles with no structure whatsoever. I would be happy if he had this team playing the "Munster" way because we would probably get some results at least, even if it is a very outdated concept. He is just totally out of his depth right now.

But why is it a "Munster" way.

Because Ulster said no?

Thomond wrote:Munster played an entirely different brand of rugby to win their HCs. I don't think we ever played the kind of rugby Ireland play now.



Also, I don't have a huge problem with kicking the ball away for territory. If you watch the first 20 minutes we actually did it pretty effectively. Kicking for the corners can work up to a certain extent, and we were doing well when we employed. The problem is those feicing garryowens, and pointless kicks that go straight to the opposition, it's not playing for position or anything it's just giving the ball back to them.

Yeah we were doing fine in that regard for the first quarter but why the hell didn't we challenge the NZ lineout?That seemed crazy and was it a coaching deciosion or one made on the field,either way it was terrible as there's no point kicking for territory if you're not going to attempt to win the ball back.

red_stag wrote:But why is it a "Munster" way.

I don't understand your question, otherwise you are just going to get an obvious answer. Because Munster play that way?

To elaborate a bit more, Munster play a certain type of game that fits their strengths. They won plenty of HECs doing so.

It is outdated at this point however, and even Munster know this. They don't really have the players for it anymore either.

Challenging for the ball in the lineout isn't always done. Aroudn the middle of the park, against the side like the All Blacks, you need to be on your toes defensively, I can see the logic there. From inside the ABs 10 metre line, we should be challenging it.

I can't understand how some people can think the HC is about the same level as internationals. Or if, as someone suggested, it is the same level as some 6Ns games, that it is about the same level as internationals vs NZ.

I just can't see how its possible. How many individual HC teams have 8/9 players in them that would make their way into the ABs?

Of course top international teams are stronger and the toppest is probably the strongest so I don't care how good Leinster are they aren't as good as the ABs. So HC is a step down from playing the ABs.

Yeah, but there is a difference between saying HC is a step down from playing the All Blacks, and that it is a step down from international rugby in general. You are comparing the Heineken Cup to the best team in world rugby. Obviously there will only be one winner.

How many international teams have 8/9 players that would get into the All Blacks btw??

Rory_Gallagher wrote:How many international teams have 8/9 players that would get into the All Blacks btw??

A World XV that comprises Genia, Juan Smith, Gray, Ioane, Dusatoir, Parisse (I gave the spelling a good crack), Fran Steyn, Gethin Jenkins and Bryan Habana. They may struggle, apart from Genia and a fully fit Juan Smith, to all fit on the bench but frankly I'd like to see a match with these players in them.

Loving this thread lads, great work.
Want to get to Stag's list in a minute but saw this and thought it was so important. It's a real Irish thing IMO and it's ingrained in our mentallity.

Notch wrote:

Intotouch wrote:I'm watching the soccer team now playing the world champions. When I came in the commentary were talking about how great the Irish lads were playing and that they were only down one nil.

I hate that attitude. Spain aren't World Champions because they're happy with losing, doesn't matter who to. Obviously the gulf in talent is huge. But winners refuse to accept the impossible. Once you accept your limitations your beaten in your own mind. You've got to want to go past those limitations.

I wish we'd get this out of our heads. BOD said something I thought was really interesting a few years ago, I think it was the year he really slimmed down. The bones of it was, if you see a gap you have to believe entirely that you are going to get through. You may not get through the gap but your belief will make you run harder and you will get further through the tackle.

I hate when people say the words "Impossible" and "Can't" I absolute detest these words and there is something in our mentallity that makes us limit ourselves to how good we can be. Realisim is important obviously but if you don't believe you can be the best you never will be.

On the late developers thing:
I have to say I'd like us to shift a bit. Madigan and Gilroy for instance deserve our trust. Going further towards grass roots, I'd like us to designate players to positions earlier like about 15/16 when peoples body shapes will be relatively predicatble in two years.

Props should then get specific training be it nutrition, weights, skills whatever. The same should go for outside backs. Skills should be practised more, to the extent where there should be a 30minute window in training squads where all the front rows get together to scrum, the locks do lineouts, the backrow work at the breakdown, scrumhalves pass to eachother, flyhalves kick to eachother. Backlines do passing and support play drills.

Guys should be introduced to weights slightly earlier and more importantly kids from 10/11 up should be introduced to core work outs (working on your core/centre of strength whatever you want to call it)

Core builds natural strength and means you don't get injured as much, it also helps balance and power in the tackle/contact.

Again-
Great thread.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Loving this thread lads, great work.
Want to get to Stag's list in a minute but saw this and thought it was so important. It's a real Irish thing IMO and it's ingrained in our mentallity.

Notch wrote:

Intotouch wrote:I'm watching the soccer team now playing the world champions. When I came in the commentary were talking about how great the Irish lads were playing and that they were only down one nil.

I hate that attitude. Spain aren't World Champions because they're happy with losing, doesn't matter who to. Obviously the gulf in talent is huge. But winners refuse to accept the impossible. Once you accept your limitations your beaten in your own mind. You've got to want to go past those limitations.

I wish we'd get this out of our heads. BOD said something I thought was really interesting a few years ago, I think it was the year he really slimmed down. The bones of it was, if you see a gap you have to believe entirely that you are going to get through. You may not get through the gap but your belief will make you run harder and you will get further through the tackle.

I hate when people say the words "Impossible" and "Can't" I absolute detest these words and there is something in our mentallity that makes us limit ourselves to how good we can be. Realisim is important obviously but if you don't believe you can be the best you never will be.

On the late developers thing:
I have to say I'd like us to shift a bit. Madigan and Gilroy for instance deserve our trust. Going further towards grass roots, I'd like us to designate players to positions earlier like about 15/16 when peoples body shapes will be relatively predicatble in two years.

Props should then get specific training be it nutrition, weights, skills whatever. The same should go for outside backs. Skills should be practised more, to the extent where there should be a 30minute window in training squads where all the front rows get together to scrum, the locks do lineouts, the backrow work at the breakdown, scrumhalves pass to eachother, flyhalves kick to eachother. Backlines do passing and support play drills.

Guys should be introduced to weights slightly earlier and more importantly kids from 10/11 up should be introduced to core work outs (working on your core/centre of strength whatever you want to call it)

Core builds natural strength and means you don't get injured as much, it also helps balance and power in the tackle/contact.

Again-
Great thread.

Most underage teams be they a club or a provincial setup do these things already.

What about the phrase, Pete, 'impossible is nothing' or 'there's no such thing as can't you c**t.' Hate is a strong word and it leads to fear which leads to the dark side.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:How many international teams have 8/9 players that would get into the All Blacks btw??

A World XV that comprises Genia, Juan Smith, Gray, Ioane, Dusatoir, Parisse (I gave the spelling a good crack), Fran Steyn, Gethin Jenkins and Bryan Habana. They may struggle, apart from Genia and a fully fit Juan Smith, to all fit on the bench but frankly I'd like to see a match with these players in them.

Yeah, but these guys are all from different countries. I am asking if there is any one country that has 8/9 players who would challenge for a starting place in NZ. That was the point the guy I was replying to was making about the HEC teams.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:What about the phrase, Pete, 'impossible is nothing' or 'there's no such thing as can't you c**t.' Hate is a strong word and it leads to fear which leads to the dark side.

Yoda....is that you!?

You know what I mean though.

Thomond wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Loving this thread lads, great work.
Want to get to Stag's list in a minute but saw this and thought it was so important. It's a real Irish thing IMO and it's ingrained in our mentallity.

Notch wrote:

Intotouch wrote:I'm watching the soccer team now playing the world champions. When I came in the commentary were talking about how great the Irish lads were playing and that they were only down one nil.

I hate that attitude. Spain aren't World Champions because they're happy with losing, doesn't matter who to. Obviously the gulf in talent is huge. But winners refuse to accept the impossible. Once you accept your limitations your beaten in your own mind. You've got to want to go past those limitations.

I wish we'd get this out of our heads. BOD said something I thought was really interesting a few years ago, I think it was the year he really slimmed down. The bones of it was, if you see a gap you have to believe entirely that you are going to get through. You may not get through the gap but your belief will make you run harder and you will get further through the tackle.

I hate when people say the words "Impossible" and "Can't" I absolute detest these words and there is something in our mentallity that makes us limit ourselves to how good we can be. Realisim is important obviously but if you don't believe you can be the best you never will be.

On the late developers thing:
I have to say I'd like us to shift a bit. Madigan and Gilroy for instance deserve our trust. Going further towards grass roots, I'd like us to designate players to positions earlier like about 15/16 when peoples body shapes will be relatively predicatble in two years.

Props should then get specific training be it nutrition, weights, skills whatever. The same should go for outside backs. Skills should be practised more, to the extent where there should be a 30minute window in training squads where all the front rows get together to scrum, the locks do lineouts, the backrow work at the breakdown, scrumhalves pass to eachother, flyhalves kick to eachother. Backlines do passing and support play drills.

Guys should be introduced to weights slightly earlier and more importantly kids from 10/11 up should be introduced to core work outs (working on your core/centre of strength whatever you want to call it)

Core builds natural strength and means you don't get injured as much, it also helps balance and power in the tackle/contact.

Again-
Great thread.

Most underage teams be they a club or a provincial setup do these things already.

What would a typical week of training be with the team you coach Thomond do you mind me asking?
You were saying you guys do weights but prioritise speed yeah?
How long have you coached that team for?