A proposal for the HEC debate.

The Amlin Pools would again be drawn based on league position.

· There would be 5 pools

· The winners of each group go through to the Quarter Finals along with the top three runners up.

Pool 1		Pool 2		Pool 3		Pool 4		Pool 5
London Irish (7)		Stade Francais (7)		Connacht Rugby (8)		Bath (8)		Bordeaux-Begles (8)
Newport Gwent Dragons (9)		Gloucester (9)		Worcester (10)		Agen (10)		Benetton Treviso (10)
Perpignan (11)		Edinburgh Rugby (11)		London Wasps (11)		Zebre Rugby (12)		Bayonne (12)
Brive (13)		Cammi Calvisano (2)		Mont-de-Marsan (14)		Cavalieri Prato (1)		Newcastle Falcons (12)

Advantages:

· I believe this format would be the fairest solution as all teams have a chance to be in the Heineken.

· This format will negate the argument that the Rabbo teams can rest their players for the league, as a low league position will hit them twice. (Qualifier round and pool draw)

· The Aviva and Top14 teams have every chance of dominating the Heineken Cup allocations if they perform in the qualifier.



Disadvantages:

· Pools can be filled with teams from the same country.

· There would be an extra game due to qualifier.

· The Rugby minnows may not be represented in the Amlin.

I think it could potentially be a bit unfair, and the English and French want less European games not more.

I'd also think Italy should have at least 1 team in the HC.

Plenty of good thought and good work put into that, swperb.

As a twist, the qualifying round could take place at the end of the season, during the weekend of Euro finals or league finals. This would mean that the finalists be excused the qualifiers (rewarding good performance) - such a reward could be extended to excuse, say, HC semifinalists and Amlin finalists, or HC quarterfinalist and Amlin semifinalists, plus perhaps league semifinalists, who would all get auto-entry to HC.

Pros: no extra weekend required
teams able to plan better and recruit for next season

Cons: less available qualifying spots for HC, so less qualifying games


Actually, just realised that it wouldn't fit in with the T14 end-of-season, so scratch that, but the idea of excusing teams from the qualifiers base on euro performance may have some merit.

I like it, a sound system with only one extra week of the season needed. Good work.

Dubbya, the HEC Final is set to be moved to earlier in the system so that it doesn't overlap with the end of season league playoffs so that idea wouldn't work. One more weekend in the season should be found to simplify things this well.

If the leagues were synchronized then the Euro qualifiers could be played during the league finals and the 6 finalists could be give a spot with the other 14 spots done by playoff.

Who knows what this set of negotiations will throw up. Could it be the beginning of a properly* structured sequential season, or, dare I say it, a global season?

* "Proper" is in the eye of the beholder - I'm well aware that the current fragmented season is in favour with many.

Thanks guys,

Dubbya – If you extend the automatic qualification, I’m not sure how the qualifier games would work. For example, say the semifinalists were all Rabbo or the majority of the quarter finalists were Rabbo.


Thunor - I like your idea to play the qualifiers alongside the league finals to save the extra week. But the flipside is that the qualifiers may steal the thunder from the league finals though.

Swperb wrote:Thanks guys,

Dubbya – If you extend the automatic qualification, I’m not sure how the qualifier games would work. For example, say the semifinalists were all Rabbo or the majority of the quarter finalists were Rabbo.


Thunor - I like your idea to play the qualifiers alongside the league finals to save the extra week. But the flipside is that the qualifiers may steal the thunder from the league finals though.

Not sure that would be a big problem, just rank the qualifiers from their league position and omit the auto-qualifiers. If the Euro semifinalists were 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th in Rabo, then ranking would go 1AP, 1T14, 2AP, 2T14, 3Rabo, 3AP, 3T14, 4AP, 4T14, 5AP, 5T14, 6Rabo, 6AP, 6T14, etc. That would still be fair, wouldn't it?

I've ranked teams in Rabo, AP, T14 order in that list - I'm sure it wouldn't matter much, but I'm also sure that a highly paid team of negotiators could drag out the issue of league primacy for several months, if not years.

I wanted to comment on this when you 1st put this thread up, but never got round to it. You've missed out Ospreys and another team (you've got 4 groups of 4 (16) but 18 games (means 18 qualifiers))

I could work if it was moved to 5 groups of three with the five group winners and best 3 runners up going through. That would allow teams a rest week every other week and reduce the number of games played.

If you plan to run the qualifier games along side the euro cup finals then both finalists would have to automatically qualify or else the losing finalist would have to play again a week after the final.

5 groups of 3 isn't very competitive, especially if you have a Italian side/weak side in the group (I know Treviso are getting better). That almost guarentees that the other 2 teams will qualify as winners/best runner up, meaning they only need to concentrate on getting 5 points against the weak team and then can take it easy until the knock outs

One of the simple problems is the English would never allow the french to have two extra teams nor should they

Mickado, due to the reduced number of games if there were 5 groups of 3. You could play the initial 18 game knock out weekend at the start of the season with the standard league leading up to the reduced in size HEC (It would be one more week long season but with two rest weeks during the season).

Smirnoff, the Italian teams wouldn't make it through the first knock out game. You'd end up with groups like Tigers, Toulon and Ulster or Leinster, Exeter, Racing (those are very rough examples obviously). Very competitive groups with teams like Exeter and Racing representing a good draw.

Hmm true, good point Sam, I still think I prefer groups of 4, but those groups of 3 could be very good (I suppose this years group D(?) is a good example, you could end up with Leinster, Clermont and Scarlets, and Scarlets wouldn't even be considered the toughest 3rd seed)

I think that adding a prelinary round would help the competion as it would mean that teams are there on merit and also adds another high drama weekend. I would like it to be half seeded half unseeded and open draw to add to the drama. You could do every second fixture having the seeded team at home.

We could get around the extra games by having four groups of six playing each team once.

So top team from 2Eng and Fra, 1Wal, Ire and Scot, Ital Plu the HC and Amlin winners go through to the group stages.

Leaving 28 places which would be what was left of the rest of the 3 leagues. Seeding would be done on ERC points. No team from one country can play one from the same country

Top two quailfy for quarters with the three best thirds droping down.

More big games and no extra games

Wouldn't the uncertainty of whether or not your going to be in the HEC or the Amlin make it harder for sides to make signings and shift season tickets?

That is always the problem but I don't see why the draw can't be done once the leagues are over

We could get around the extra games by having four groups of six playing each team once.

Brendan that would be a bit iffy. Say Tigers and Ulster are in the same group again, they are both good teams and will both be looking to progress. They are both likely to win at home so whichever team gets stuck with the away game is likely to not make it through. Also it limits attendance opportunities.

Stick with the original idea but with the 6 groups of 3, I like the idea of each team having two rest weeks during the season. Some key internationals play to much rugby and introducing that will go some way to appeasing the Unions who want a shorter season (they don't get a shorter season but the player welfare is maintained).

Everyone gets the same opportunity with the original play off weekend, the groups are then decided by tiering the 18 clubs in to 3 tiers based on ERC points and then drawing them out of a hat. To get the best draws you need to have finished well in your league (for the initial 18 game knock out weekend) and have done well in Europe to accumiliate points (to seed well in the mini leagues).

Wouldn't the uncertainty of whether or not your going to be in the HEC or the Amlin make it harder for sides to make signings and shift season tickets?

Not really as all the teams will still be competing in a European competition and all the teams bar Ireland and Scotland are tied into salary caps. Squad size will be needed to compete on the necessary fronts and with a more interesting Amlin (some big names could end up in there given a shock result in the knock out rounds) the sponsorship, tv rights and attendances could be higher and help bridge the gap anyway. All teams will get a share of the initial knock out weekend cash which ideally would be sold seperately and if possible to more than one broadcaster.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:I wanted to comment on this when you 1st put this thread up, but never got round to it. You've missed out Ospreys and another team (you've got 4 groups of 4 (16) but 18 games (means 18 qualifiers))

I have included the Ospreys Smirnoff? And its 5 groups of four.

Must be my browser - I can only see 4 groups of 4 (each one has one of Leinster Rugby Harlequins Toulouse Clermont Auvergne in them)

How does this look then?

Swperb wrote:A proposal for the HEC debate.

· All teams from Aviva, Top14, and Rabbo have a chance to be in the Heineken Cup.

· All teams to take part in a qualifying round to decide if they are in the Heineken Cup or the Amlin Cup.

· The Top 18 Seeds to take on the bottom 18 Seeds.

· Seeding based on position in their respective leagues from previous year.

· The winners of the previous Heineken Cup & Amlin Cup qualify for Heineken cup automatically.

Based on this year’s league tables the qualifying round would look like this:

LP	Top Seed Team		Bottom Seed Team	LP
1	Toulouse	V	Mont-de-Marsan	14
1	Harlequins	V	Brive	13
2	Ospreys	V	Newcastle Falcons / London Welsh	12
2	Clermont Auvergne	V	Bayonne	12
2	Leicester Tigers	V	Zebre Rugby	12
3	Munster Rugby	V	London Wasps	11
3	Toulon	V	Perpignan	11
3	Saracens	V	Edinburgh Rugby	11
4	Glasgow Warriors	V	Worcester	10
4	Castres	V	Agen	10
4	Northampton	V	Benetton Treviso	10
5	Scarlets	V	Gloucester	9
5	Montpellier	V	Newport Gwent Dragons	9
5	Exeter	V	Bath	8
6	Ulster Rugby	V	Connacht Rugby	8
6	Racing Metro Paris	V	Bordeaux-Begles	8
6	Sale Sharks	V	London Irish	7
7	Cardiff Blues	V	Stade Francais	7

Assuming for arguments sake that all of the top seeds win their respective qualifier, the Heineken Cup pools would again be drawn based on league position.

· There would be 5 pools instead of the current 6 pool format.

· The Winner of each pool along with the best three runners up goes through to the Quarter finals.

Pool 1		Pool 2		Pool 3		Pool 4		Pool 5
Leinster Rugby (1)*		Harlequins (1)		Toulouse (1)		Clermont Auvergne (2)		Ospreys (2)
Leicester Tigers (2)		Munster Rugby (3)		Saracens (3)		Toulon (3)		Northampton (4)
Glasgow Warriors (4)		Castres (4)		Scarlets (5)		Exeter (5)		Montpellier (5)
Racing Metro Paris (6)		Sale Sharks (6)		Ulster Rugby (6)		Cardiff Blues (7)		Biarritz (9)*

* Automatic qualifiers.

Still only the 4 im afraid, and im on my smart phone (or at least im on my mentally challenged phone) last group i can c is group 4 with clermont and blues in it, can see it in the op fine but cutting off in ur post. Whose in group 5?

Pool 5

Ospreys (2)

Northampton (4)

Montpellier (5)

Biarritz (9)*

* Automatic qualifiers.

Cheers man