Nadal comes to the defense of Murray in dramagate!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously, I have found some of the coverage of these murray non-stories with their hysteria pretty funny. But guess who came riding in on his horse to the defense of murray, none other than Rafa Nadal. Another player who has felt the jibes of the online critics questioning his injuries and mtos, Novak as well has been under the glare. I personally think that all three are much bigger than silly antics like that done with the intention of throwing off their opponent. I mean against 99 percent of the guys they play why even bother they usually smother them. I mean murray doesn't need Mtos to beat Gazza or the other guys at RG he was beating early on.

I respect this action by Nadal, it is always nice to see great champions stand up for embattled players. As opposed to certain champions who like to play mind games and go on the offensive to attack their opponents in their interviews or to question their injuries.

''Andy is a great guy. In my opinion he never does this to bother the opponent. So that's the most important thing. It's difficult to explain but I really believe in Andy,'' said world No. 2 Nadal.

''I think he's a fair guy, a good competitor. I'm 100 per cent sure that he was doing nothing to bother the opponent, to take advantage.''



Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/sport/tennis/nadal-serves-up-defence-against-murray-fake-claims-20120615-20fj3.html#ixzz1xtMyZKnU

Nadal's defence of Murray well & truly covered already in another Murray-related thread (originated by hawkeye, surprise surprise ....) which you may have missed socal

It's titled "Everyone in the locker room is talking about Murray" if you wish to check it out .......

It's a dfence against te mess convincing charge.

My own view is that Murray doesn't seek to put another player off, but that he is prone to fuss and dramatise his aches and pains.

I think it isn't conscious the activity in question, I don't believe that murray is sitting there like an actor thinking about what antics he should pull to throw his opponent off like pretending to be injured. And I myself can't tell how much anyone is injured I am not a doctor and haven't examined them. But I tend to give the player the benefit of the doubt especially in a case were you are talking about a top ranked player. Maybe a lower level journeyman in a tight match against a similar type of player might pull this kind of routine but I don't believe this goes on consistently at the highest levels.

Lags I didn't miss it I saw it and commented on it. I wanted to clarify my thoughts on Nadal's comments if you don't like the thread or are tired of the topic you don't need to respond.

bogbrush wrote:

My own view is that Murray doesn't seek to put another player off, but that he is prone to fuss and dramatise his aches and pains.

True!!!! But it's subconsciously done

Yeah I think he isn't doing to put playersoff but he does like to make people aware he is injured which to be fair why else would he be losing to a player like, Mahut, Niemenen all due respect to them

yeah CAS he certainly hasn't looked primed and it could be that he is injured. And maybe he doesn't see any benefit in minimizing the fact before wimbeldon because god forbid he might not meet the exceedingly high expectations. i don't know I just don't think the Murrays, Djokos, and Nadals of the world need those types of tricks or feel that threatened by the vast majority of their opponents. And I don't know if it necessarily provides and edge. I also think it could be subconscious a sort of defense mechanism, players have all kinds of them to cope with pressure. I really don't know because I don't have any inside information. But if you are Djoko or murray why waste the acting when you can blow the other guy off the court and when they play each other there rarely is any type of shenanigans among the top guys they are all very respectful.

I think it may be just their generation, I think Del Potro does it as well. I do think they exaggerate slightly though, but I think its a combination of their frustration because the style of play Nadal, Djokovic and Murray is about keeping the ball in play, they are perfectionists.

So when they have a slight niggle, and it affects them slightly they kind of overreact because of the frustration of not being able to play their game. I kind of liken them to machines, where a slight wiring problem can affect them greatly. Whereas Federer, who is aggressive can shorten points and play slightly injured.

There may be a generational thing were the older pros were taught to not show weakness to the opponent and maybe in today's game CAS that is not as prevalent. And that is true Roger's aggressive style and his tendency to play shorter points has been a huge help for his overrall health and in minimizing the beating his body has taken. Still I stick to my main point that I don't think these guys at the top levels play act, they just don't need to waste the energy and spend the time in all that nonsense for the most. The top 4 guys now on the tour basically win the vast majority of their matches by just showing up and having a pulse.

CAS wrote:Yeah I think he isn't doing to put playersoff but he does like to make people aware he is injured which to be fair why else would he be losing to a player like, Mahut, Niemenen all due respect to them

He loses to these players simply because occassionally every player loses. Nole, these days rarely loses to anyone other than his three rivals. Nadal a bit more. Roger even more. And Andy more still!! But far less than the others - for instance what's Tsonga's excuse, that's why they are the Top 4

I've never understood why people overanalyse Andy's mannerisims so much - they don't stop him from winning as it is this attention to detail, over fussiness that's brought him 20 odd titles

socal1976 wrote:There may be a generational thing were the older pros were taught to not show weakness to the opponent and maybe in today's game CAS that is not as prevalent.

Social, as one of our more cerebral Tennis watchers, I'm a bit surprised by your naivety. Nastase and early Conners, wore their heart on their sleeve to such a degree that they made Murray's worst self flaggelation look like Borg at his ice-cool best

And anyone watching Wimbledon 1985 and Mac's angst ridden defeat to Kevin Curren got introspective critical self analysis that Jeremy Kyle could only dream of

I'd also go and see some of the Agassi implosions of the mid-90's, i.e. before Steffi

Nah!! We're such a bland society now that any 'personality' is condemned and boring self dicipline praised

My ideal scenario? Murray and Nole, both imploding during a tight 5 setter at this years Wimbledon final, to such a degree that their relationship is never the same again (until they retire!!!!!! Yes. I can dream

banbrotam wrote:

I've never understood why people overanalyse Andy's mannerisims so much

Well Tommy Haas and all the other players in the locker room (after detailed analysis) have discovered that when Andy looks like he is in agony and is about to retire from the match it won't stop him from running around like a cat. IMO they will find that information quite useful in the future.

hawkeye wrote:

banbrotam wrote:

I've never understood why people overanalyse Andy's mannerisims so much

Well Tommy Haas and all the other players in the locker room (after detailed analysis) have discovered that when Andy looks like he is in agony and is about to retire from the match it won't stop him from running around like a cat. IMO they will find that information quite useful in the future.

It's great to know that Haas is so concerned about the force that Andy, he'll clutch onto any forlorn hope of beating him and more worryingly inform you about it!!!

Or have you taken some words out of context, as usual my dear Hawkeye

Amazed that hawkeye is labelling her wet dr....sorry idol a liar.

banbrotam and CaladonianCraig

I was responding to your speculation as to why it might be useful to analyse your opponants "mannerisms". Sad that you both have to resort to childish insults.

Not my speculation. And sad that you wish to paint Nadal as a liar. Like I said he was in Germany and ridiculed a German player's opinion - hardly a sensible thing to do if you want to keep the German public/media on his side during his time at Halle was it?

hawkeye wrote:

banbrotam wrote:

I've never understood why people overanalyse Andy's mannerisims so much

Well Tommy Haas and all the other players in the locker room (after detailed analysis) have discovered that when Andy looks like he is in agony and is about to retire from the match it won't stop him from running around like a cat. IMO they will find that information quite useful in the future.

You mean the Haas who has retired a stonking 21 times from matches? Compared to Andy's 4?

Wow what an insight by a genuine german drama queen.

considering Tommy Haas' injury lay offs over the years it suggests that may something to do with all those retirements, it could just mean Haas can no longer play whereas Murray complains over niggles but nothing ever serious.

Murrays knees have been mentioned by him as well, and his ankles. Novaks shoulder, Nadals knees and Federers back, they all play injured for chunks of the season in my opinion.

banbrotam wrote:

socal1976 wrote:There may be a generational thing were the older pros were taught to not show weakness to the opponent and maybe in today's game CAS that is not as prevalent.

Social, as one of our more cerebral Tennis watchers, I'm a bit surprised by your naivety. Nastase and early Conners, wore their heart on their sleeve to such a degree that they made Murray's worst self flaggelation look like Borg at his ice-cool best

And anyone watching Wimbledon 1985 and Mac's angst ridden defeat to Kevin Curren got introspective critical self analysis that Jeremy Kyle could only dream of

I'd also go and see some of the Agassi implosions of the mid-90's, i.e. before Steffi

Nah!! We're such a bland society now that any 'personality' is condemned and boring self dicipline praised

My ideal scenario? Murray and Nole, both imploding during a tight 5 setter at this years Wimbledon final, to such a degree that their relationship is never the same again (until they retire!!!!!! Yes. I can dream

Well you are correct there Banbro I stand corrected I buy your argument hook line a sinker. I do agree with your view that if anything today's tour has been forced to be more and more bland and less and less personality is tolerated. I think this has less to do with media criticism and more to do with ever corporatization of the game. I mean Federer made several times more money in endorsements last year than prize money. The top guys are much more so in the past interested in being non-controversial corporate pitch men. I mean the money was there in the 80s as well but it was just starting to get crazy and tennis players weren't mainstream pitch men, yeah they had some endorsments but with Agassi it really started to explode and Fed has taken it to whole new level. I mean do you think Jimmy Connors when he was putting his racquent handle between his legs and gesturing to the official as if it was his member in front of the cameras that he was thinking about how much underwear or cialis he could sell when he was off the court? I don't think so, I think the guys back then came out of period where the game just recently hadn't even really been about money. There was literally none in the game till the mid 70s.

CAS wrote:considering Tommy Haas' injury lay offs over the years it suggests that may something to do with all those retirements, it could just mean Haas can no longer play whereas Murray complains over niggles but nothing ever serious.

Murrays knees have been mentioned by him as well, and his ankles. Novaks shoulder, Nadals knees and Federers back, they all play injured for chunks of the season in my opinion.

Suggests to me that Haas hasnt got the stomach for a fight.

Well we shall see Haas in action later today, and get an idea of where his game is. At least right now he should be fully fit, having just beaten Rafa's conqueror to make it to the Halle final.

I still maintain that, for however long Haas continues playing the main tour, he should not use the media to openly criticise fellow professionals on the matter of injury, perceived or otherwise. It's disrespectful to do things in such a way. Would he say as much to Murray's face, I wonder....?

All said & done, it's not as though Murray was calling questionable MTO's or otherwise wilfully delaying play at RG. If it really is the case that the mere sight of Murray occasionally clutching at his back is allegedly all it takes to distract an opponent - say Gasquet - from his own game, then perhaps the likes of Gasquet might need to toughen up a little.

Lafs, interstingly in the first set V Gasquet at French Open, Murray was clutching his back but was unphased. When the tide began to turn, that is when Gasquet decided to make a thing of it. Make of that what you will.

"One gamesmanship player defending another gamesmanship player."

Shocker

Niemenen and Ljubicic aren't into gamesmanship are they? Also haven't heard one iota from any other player on the circuit coming out in support of Haas. Curious eh? I wonder why?

Josiah Maiestas wrote:"One gamesmanship player defending another gamesmanship player."

Shocker

Just out of curiosity you understand JM... are you not able to type more that two lines on your keyboard ??

Well Haas said it because he has been through REAL tormenting injuries, that have hindered his body motion. So when he sees this charade hollywood acting by Murray and others, it provokes a reaction. Should be an arrestable offence to fake injury.

Haddie-nuff wrote:

Josiah Maiestas wrote:"One gamesmanship player defending another gamesmanship player."

Shocker

Just out of curiosity you understand JM... are you not able to type more that two lines on your keyboard ??

Its a tennis forum not an frigging literature essay. Judging people on how long their writing is..

You sound like a naggy teacher

Josiah Maiestas wrote:
Its a tennis forum not an frigging literature essay. Judging people on how long their writing is..

You sound like a naggy teacher

Josiah Only 'an' if there is a vowel after.

There are a good few tennis players out there who have had REAL tormenting injuries JM.. Not least of all Nalbandian, Blake, Hewitt, and DelPotro.. but they are professional tennis players and learn to keep their mouth shut. What happens in the locker room should stay in the locker room.. not land up on Facebook. It provokes reaction only among the WUMS and hatahs JM... the rest ignore it.

Fake injury? Try again sunshine - Jim Courier suffered spasms like Murray and whilst he watched the injury develop he pin-pointed the injury from the movement and reaction of Murray. After the match it came to light it was back spasms as Courier had said so quite clearly no acting. In any case - why act? Murray could have chosen to beat Niemenen in any way he chooses (if we are being honest here) so cannot see any reason for that.

For the last time on this - Murray is very expressive on court and displays all emotions such as anger, frustration and pain and will always express those emotions. That does not make him a drama queen unless you can point me in the direction of many matches he has pulled out of when in fact he has amongst the best record on the men's circuit with regards of MTO's and withdrawals.

ok Craig let's see how you feel if Nadal fakes an injury and ends up beating Murray because of it. As I say you need to keep some perspective without changing the goalposts just because you are infatuated with a player..

What happens in the locker room should stay in the locker room

That is one thing I do agree with, perhaps Haas though had tried to talk to Murray about it and he wouldn't listen to him?

When has Murray faked an injury?

It Must Be Love wrote:When has Murray faked an injury?

Spot on.

It seems to me that Haas has no more right to speak to Murray about it at all... .
You dont start airing your personal views to a player about his conduct on or off court. There are ways of dealing with these things and it is not opening your large mouth airing your dirty linen in public. If Haas believes he is right. and has a genuine grievance then go through the official channels

It Must Be Love wrote:When has Murray faked an injury?

Sounds like the editor of the Dailymail...

You're like the chief editor of the News Of The World, always avoiding my questions

Josiah Maiestas wrote:ok Craig let's see how you feel if Nadal fakes an injury and ends up beating Murray because of it. As I say you need to keep some perspective without changing the goalposts just because you are infatuated with a player..

What happens in the locker room should stay in the locker room

That is one thing I do agree with, perhaps Haas though had tried to talk to Murray about it and he wouldn't listen to him?

When has Nadal faked an injury and won a match as a result of it, oh yes I forgot you follow the mtos and too much time between points line of reasoning as to how Nadal has bested fed. What a joke fed fans accusing me of making excuses when I am not.

JM let me ask you a question players quote fake injuries to gain an edge right. If it didn't help them gain an edge why do it right? JM please think about it I know you are smart guy when you actually put your emotional arguments aside. Why would Murray need to get an edge over the Niemmens of the world through cheating. I mean I know you are not a great fan of his but why would he need to pull this routine in matches that if he would win virtually every time anyway? I mean if he was going to pull this routine why not agains FEd, Nadal, or Djoko when you might actually need every little bit of it. Why expose this play, garner all the criticism, just to mess with Niemmenen? really niemmenen?

Sometimes on this site I feel like I need to give a couple of you a logical reasoning tutorial. That simply doesn't make any sense JM, come with something stronger.

I do agree it is kind of classless by haas to make this statement and to bring out criticisms of other players public. I didn't like it when Roddick and Fed did it to Novak, Andy Roddick has stopped fed was just warming up with his press criticisms. And I certainly don't like it when another player does it to murray, I think it is a cheap shot. But hey it is a long tradition in tennis where these men do sometimes act like catty divas when you put a mike in front of them.

Does it really matter if Murray was injured or being Dramatic. I presume what Haas and others in the locker room were discussing was the fact that Murray LOOKED as if he was in agony and would be unable to play on.

It is rare to see a player LOOK as if he can hardly move and then as Haas put it "run like a cat". Other players will of course need to be aware of this if they play Murray in the future because usually when a player looks like this they do not continue to play.

It doesn't matter if Murray was being dramatic or if he was truly in agony (Murray could be incredibly strong and be able to play through pain that no other players could tolerate) But what matters to other players is if they see behaviour like this from him it will not affect his play at all... in fact he may even play better.

Haas probably shouldn't have told the press that they were talking about Andy. (Apart from anything else I feel scared for him when he arrives in London to be greeted by the British press who will be desperate for a gossip story to sell to the two week tennis fans) But I would be shocked if any of Murray's future opponants were not aware of Andy's ability to play his best tennis when he looks like he is half dead

In future players that have discussed this will know what to expect and will not fold in the way that Neiminen and Gasquet did.

Of course it matters if he was injured which evidently he was and rules out this feigning injury rubbish. He was injured. End of story and get over it but I doubt you will, That is my last word on that matter and I'll leave you to try to manoeuvre the thread into another way of attempting to discredit Murray.

TTFN

hawkeye wrote:Does it really matter if Murray was injured or being Dramatic.

Don't be so naive. Of course an accuasion of feigning injury is far more serious than an over-exaggerating (as you and some other would have it) and actual injury. Ones blatant cheating, the other (if it exists) is a persons reaction to an injury

hawkeye wrote:In future players that have discussed this will know what to expect and will not fold in the way that Neiminen and Gasquet did.

Do you think that's why Gasquet lost last year at RG, to Murray?

Why would Murray need to get an edge over the Niemmens of the world through cheating.

I havent disputed Murray would have beaten Nieminen and Gasquet. He's got too much armour and variation for players like them. What irritates me is that he was playing mind games the same way Nadal did to DP. He might aswell slam his racquet on the floor when he's playing rubbish that doesn't affect anyone else. I bet you've never watched a tennis match that doesn't involve a top 4 player!

Josiah Maiestas wrote:

Why would Murray need to get an edge over the Niemmens of the world through cheating.

I havent disputed Murray would have beaten Nieminen and Gasquet. He's got too much armour and variation for players like them. What irritates me is that he was playing mind games the same way Nadal did to DP. He might aswell slam his racquet on the floor when he's playing rubbish that doesn't affect anyone else. I bet you've never watched a tennis match that doesn't involve a top 4 player!

Josiah. For one so young, you're amazingly sure of yourself and dismissive of others with the benefit of experience of the world we live in. This makes you come across as arrogant and a bit of a know all - something us 'oldies' remember being like, when we too thought we had all the answers and could read players minds

I actually don't think Murray does play "mind games" - indeed I wish he would, then he might have done what Del Potro did to Roger at US09, wind him up and get the result he desires. No. Andy's implosions / niggles occur so randomly (the other day he was busy clutching his back after winning a point!!) that it cannot be a conscious thing

Fed though, is great at mind games and plays them all the time. He simply acts like a Saint on and off the court (with his many charitieees!!) etc making the Tony Blair who conned most in 1997, look like a spontaneous animated Nalbandian type figure.

You see, as you'll learn 'mind games' take on many guises - you can't allow yourself to get seduced with what some see as obvious, when it's a character trait that Murray has always had

Now Roger, used to have a strop and break racquets etc, but learnt that it was better to not only control his mind - but go out of his way, to be the Official Gent of Tennis. What about that conversion? Should we all be growling in disgust at how Roger went from temperamental artist to bland genius? Should we all be disgusted at how he can play a crowd, whilst still having some of the ruthless 'do you know who I am' characteristics of the Serena's and Macs of the legend Tennis world?

Incidentally, considering CC, clearly watched Nalbandian and Cilic yesterday, your last comment makes you appear 13 not 23

banbrotam

Roger doesn't need to play mind games. Just like the drop shot I'm sure he considers them something only lesser mortals do.

Hawkeye stop playing this I feel worried for Haas when he comes to London rubbish. As I said previously if he comes and plays good tennis I'm sure it will be appreciated.

Just saw your post in the Nalbandian thread. Seems in your mind what he did was more acceptable than playing with an injury and showing the pain you are feeling.

Anyway back to your point. You keep on stressing that 'everyone in the locker room is talking about it' I know this wwas quoted from Tommy but does that mean that everyone in the locker room thinks he is putting it on. Was there a poll ? (you are good at starting these). Nadal doesn't, Nieminen didn't so that is two out already.

As for the injury at the FO nobody (including the pundits) has come with a logical reason why in the match against Neiminen (who he had beaten in their previous three encounters with the loss of one set) he would come out serving way below his normal speed and be moving very gingerly. The result being he lost the first set easily and was 4-2 down in the second. Some things to remember are :

He missed Madrid citing a back injury (fact)

According to the press he had cortisone injections in his back during Rome.

He did not blame his previous back problems for the Nieminem match but a back spasm. These can be really painful (I've had them myself). Sometimes using painkillers can loosen these up after a while.

Allegedly they were discussing up to 20 minutes before the match whether he sholud play and his coaching team wished him to retire at the end of the first set.

After the first set of the Nieminen match for the rest of the tournament he did not have an MTO or call the trainer on court. Neither did he slow down points. Yes he rubbed his back a number of times and had a grimace. However if just doing that puts off an opponent it does not say much for that opponents level of concentration.

hawkeye wrote:banbrotam

Roger doesn't need to play mind games. Just like the drop shot I'm sure he considers them something only lesser mortals do.

Funny in the last two or three years Roger has used a lot of drop shots so maybe he to is nothing but a lesser mortal, imagine that.

@Josiah, again he wasn't playing mind games. To play mind games you have to consciously decide hey want to say and act one way in order to get a result. Why would he go to all that trouble against players he beats down and owns? And then conversly if Murray believed he would gain an advantage by playing mind games with his opponents why would he act out even more in big matches against Roger, Novak, and nadal when he actually needs the edge? You see your own argument is not even internally consistent even if we accept all your assumptions. I haven't seen murray act out any more or less against Rog, Novak, or Nadal. So i am sure it isn't a conscious decision to mess with the mind of the Niemmenens and Gasquets of the world.