Nigel Owens and Ireland and the Ruck Monkey

by anotherworldofpain Sun 17 Jun 2012, 3:05 pm

First topic message reminder :

So with all the emotional from the air disappear I take another look to yesterdays games.

First up Ireland.

Now all week we read about in the papers how Ireland better NZ at the breakdown. And a lot of complaining from Ireland about the rules at the ruck not going there way.

So this weekend Nigel Owens seem to go out with the mind already that Ireland better and really let them away with a lot of things.

"Obstruction, Obstruction, Obstruction" must have been Irish game plan because from very start this is what they doing. Watch the game again. Always have the Irish back row, particular no.6 run horizontal in front of the Irish attacker. At the ruck Ireland have "pillars" out like it was 2004. On the kick off Ireland give up catch the ball and look to impeding advancing all blacks "second receiver" to take the tip. They just barge them off the way before the ball arrive.

Second Nigel Owens allow the Irish to enter the defensive ruck in "ruck monkey" position. They flop over the tackle area and take the weight to their hands then start to grapple at the ball. This is not allowed in the SH where attacking clearance is favour and defenders must attack only the isolated runner and stay to the feet always. No wonder Richie McCaw look so confused most of the game!

On the contrary Owens penalise the all blacks on the clear out who lose their feet try to clear away the Irish defenders. This is refereeing from a decade ago.

Add to that the knee-jerk yellow card for israel dagg who was already commit to a innocuous charge down and we see that Owens was clearly start the game on the north side of euqator and too influence by the Irish fans in the crowd and media run up to the game.

This tubby Welshman is the center of a lot of controversy. And is it time to give him the pension and move on with younger fitter referees who can keep up with the rules and the match?

by **rodders** Sun 17 Jun 2012, 11:36 pm

I should point out that I've no problem with the ABs tactics, they are very streetwise and we aren't whiter than white ourselves.... the best sides push the boundries at the breakdown.... but if anyone thinks we got away with more than the ABs in that area well... I think they probably need to rewatch the game without the steinlager..... guinness

by SecretFly Sun 17 Jun 2012, 11:42 pm

Oh well, enjoy the discussions next week everyone. I already see a list up for the team of the weekend. Not one Irish player on one guy's list. Oh well, if you ignore us we might go away. Only one side though nearly did to the World Champions what France nearly did to them before getting the crown.

I'll be back Saturday morning for round 3. Smile

by **rodders** Sun 17 Jun 2012, 11:44 pm

Take her handy Fly, keep believing man guinness

by The Great Aukster Sun 17 Jun 2012, 11:54 pm

Fair enough some NZ posters think it's ok for a player to deliberately try to hurt another player - after all it's not tiddlywinks. Thankfully the referee and most posters who love the game as a sporting event rather than a blood sport think otherwise.

by emack2 Mon 18 Jun 2012, 12:01 am

The game was brutal as shown by the number of injuries on BOTH sides.Is it worth pointing out that the SH are trialling new interpratations of some rules at the IRB`s behest. Especially in the breakdown area,Offside,etc.maybe that only happens in SH domestic Rugby this year.EVERY year we get NH Refs getting stick in SH and vice versa.It will get worse with the NH trialling variations first next year.THEN hopefully ALL REFS will sing from the same song sheet,the Laws are common to both Hemispheres .BUT there still seems shades of grey in the laws and the way they are applied.NO Ref seems to consistenly Ref the Scrum just seems a matter of guesswork.The Front Row Mafia still getting away with Murder.

by nganboy Mon 18 Jun 2012, 2:06 am

I thinks Owens has been fine.
I didn't think there was anything in Daggs jump to be honest but can understand how it might go from a nothing to a yellow.

by blackcanelion Mon 18 Jun 2012, 2:21 am

Despite the potential for the OP to be WUMed up I think it has some merit. The reason I come on this board is to see the opinion of other nationalities. Otherwise I just listen to the split personalities in my own head.

I listened to RTE in the weekend. I find the British media really interesting vis a vis NZ rugby. They are quite happy to call NZ the best and most consistent cheaters. It's quite good therefore to have a discussion from a kiwi perspective.

I said last week and this week that didn't think Owens was great. I don't. I think he struggled both games. I think both teams will have reservations about him.

Some Irish fans will have issues with his calls towards the end, especially the wheeled scrum and touched in flight call. Fair enough, a different either one would have released pressure. What I would say is that either call could be made. Kitson, the guardians reporter, certainly feels aggrieved.

From an NZ perspective Ireland pushed a lot of boundaries again this weekend. That's the same with all teams. they went early in most scrums last week and I'm guessing it came up in Owens review. They were marginally ahead in terms of penalties (conceding 9 penalties and 2 free kicks to 11 penalties and a yellow card). They gained a lot in terms of the influence of the game and got 10 nil lead on the back of at least 4 quickfire penalties from Owens. All these penalties can be justified, but so can penalties the other way in many cases. IMO that's why McCaw looked both frustrated and perplexed with Owen. To my mind it's one reason why they started driving in close to the ruck, with numbers, and quick ball. I could go on...

The point is that you play to the referee. This was a game which was close and the Owen's decision were crucial as they determined position, possession and scoring opportunities. A lot of rugby is like that. We all take the opinion that our side plays hard but fair, and that the opposition tend to get away with a bit. For me the key issue is we lack any quality reporting on the refereeing.

by **Biltong** Mon 18 Jun 2012, 7:27 am

I don't think Owens was that bad. I agree you play the referee, however there is a point about referees being a law onto teir own as well.

I can for example say Franks doesn't play close to the offside line at rucks, not even nearly close, you may see it as playing the referee, I see it as blatant offside and obstructing.

Any other team does that they get pinged.

by blackcanelion Mon 18 Jun 2012, 8:40 am

I'm not going to disagree with you Biltongbek. The point is all sides push the limits, even the AB's..... I think SA and NZ fans are usually realistic enough to accept that it happens (it doesn't mean we don't feel aggrieved at times). I realise that refereeing is an art, my issue is really an issue of style. No doubt you feel the same way about Bryce. censored

In terms of hoo haa with refs and the media. I find it somewhat bizarre that media hacks, that regularly complain about crooked feeds, complain about the referee missing the ball not being hooked, when the ball was about as crooked as you see in an international. If the situation was reversed all we'd hear about is what a brilliant piece of play it was from the flanker.

by Mickado Mon 18 Jun 2012, 9:23 am

blackcanelion wrote:
I listened to RTE in the weekend. I find the British media really interesting vis a vis NZ rugby.

Tut tut tut...

I just read stuff.co.nz i find American websites very interesting.

by blackcanelion Mon 18 Jun 2012, 9:30 am

Mickado wrote:
blackcanelion wrote:
I listened to RTE in the weekend. I find the British media really interesting vis a vis NZ rugby.

Tut tut tut...

I just read stuff.co.nz i find American websites very interesting.

Fair enough. I consider myself suitably chastised.

by **rodders** Mon 18 Jun 2012, 9:41 am

blackcanelion wrote:
I listened to RTE in the weekend. I find the British media really interesting vis a vis NZ rugby.

Well I'm not sure RTE would appreciate being called British.....

Look I don't have an issue with any of Owens calls really... its all swings and roundabouts... I thought he was very even handed and fair...

I do find it laughable when Kiwi fans or media are suggesting that Ireland pushed the boundries at the breakdown or got away with more than NZ... I mean come on time after time the NZ players were coming through on an offside positions at rucks and dilerberately disrupting our players from contesting the ball and obstructing our defenders at either side of the rucks.

Rob Kearney was blatantly obstucted on several occaisions, one in particular singled out by Justin Marshall from chasing up and unders. Clearly NZ had identified his arial threat and it was a tactic to tug him back when chasing the kicks.

I don't really have a problem with this, you have to push the boundries, we did too and got pinged several times but I can't agree that Ireland were any more cynical at the breakdown than NZ... you have to play the ref and both sides did.

It was a ferocious test played in good spirit and Owens did an excellent job in my opinion.

by anotherworldofpain Mon 18 Jun 2012, 10:53 am

rodders wrote:I just watched the match again with the NZ commentry and Justin Marshall thought it was a certain penalty and card, he actually pointed out numerous AB infringements throughout the game which I and the sky commentators actually missed such as the obstruction of our kick chasers, in particular on Rob Kearney...... top bloke Marshall...sharp a a razor

I though Owens had an excellent game and was pretty fair to both teams but missed a few infringements on both sides.

Justin Marhsall build a career in the NH. So not surprising he pander to their ego. A bit like Sean Fitzpatrick.

But leave it to AnotherWorldofPain your impartial and objectivate rugby eye to call out bias in the referee and commentatory!

by anotherworldofpain Mon 18 Jun 2012, 10:57 am

My analysis of this game continue with another rewatching. How many knock ons were there in lead up to Irish try? I count 4 in the one phase alone where ball is fumbling on the ground between player to player.

by blackcanelion Mon 18 Jun 2012, 11:00 am

Rodders. We're in agreement in a lot of things. I'm not saying either side necessarily suffered more under Owens, just as with any games, there's lots of infringing by both sides. I guess I'm just not a fan of his style. The reason why many kiwis comment is we are faced with a constant barrage from the British media that we are serial cheats. The reality is most of us have been involved in rugby in one form or another most of our lives. We know all sides push boundaries. We can see our side doing and we can see other sides doing it. Sometimes we get a lucky break, other times the opposition does. The reality is no does any real analysis of ref, so we can never have any confidence.

by SecretFly Mon 18 Jun 2012, 11:01 am

anotherworldofpain wrote:My analysis of this game continue with another rewatching. How many knock ons were there in lead up to Irish try? I count 4 in the one phase alone where ball is fumbling on the ground between player to player.

AB obstructions.... get round to re-watching with that hat on yet, Pain? Wink

by anotherworldofpain Mon 18 Jun 2012, 11:03 am

Not yet Secret! But I am waiting on the poster who complain about it to give me the minute reference so I can checking out and tell him if is correct or was play acceptable!

by Thomond Mon 18 Jun 2012, 11:03 am

Blackcanelino, I would almost take the cheating as a compliment. Every side tries the same stuff, vis a vis the breakdown and the dark arts. (Richie McCaw is taking over from Snape at Hogwarts btw Wink

) Yet the ABs are singled out as these cheating basterds. Why? They're very feicing good that's why! You'll notice if a team is good, they get the biggest criticism from fans and refs are perceived as soft agaisnt them. E.g Man United, that's slightly more true though!

by anotherworldofpain Mon 18 Jun 2012, 11:05 am

blackcanelion wrote:Rodders. We're in agreement in a lot of things. I'm not saying either side necessarily suffered more under Owens, just as with any games, there's lots of infringing by both sides. I guess I'm just not a fan of his style. The reason why many kiwis comment is we are faced with a constant barrage from the British media that we are serial cheats. The reality is most of us have been involved in rugby in one form or another most of our lives. We know all sides push boundaries. We can see our side doing and we can see other sides doing it. Sometimes we get a lucky break, other times the opposition does. The reality is no does any real analysis of ref, so we can never have any confidence.

I am netral! not the kiwi. Just call out some poor old fashion refereeing and a bad call about yellow card! This just opinion in the favour to NZ this time. But as you can read about in my posting is often to the other team.

For example SA first try was valid even though commentators complaining because Steve Walsh thought he saw the ball touch already the front row player for England and thought the player did not unbind too early. Is easy for the commentator on slow motion with good video location to have another opinion! But is for real time by the assistant referee and not to be make complain the way they did with bias!

by SecretFly Mon 18 Jun 2012, 11:10 am

blackcanelion wrote:Rodders. We're in agreement in a lot of things. I'm not saying either side necessarily suffered more under Owens, just as with any games, there's lots of infringing by both sides. I guess I'm just not a fan of his style. The reason why many kiwis comment is we are faced with a constant barrage from the British media that we are serial cheats. The reality is most of us have been involved in rugby in one form or another most of our lives. We know all sides push boundaries. We can see our side doing and we can see other sides doing it. Sometimes we get a lucky break, other times the opposition does. The reality is no does any real analysis of ref, so we can never have any confidence.

Your argument then is with a different country, black. Ireland do not have a British media - they have an Irish media. Would I blame cocky Aussies of having New Zealander arrogance?

In Ireland (not Britain) in Ireland we know only too well about the tag of being called habitual cheaters. There was a time a few years back when we constantly got the dig from the British media. Ireland were the Dark Arts experts...Munster too were the dark arts European club experts...I often laughed about us being in great company as back then there was a triumverate of sorts - New Zealand, SA and Ireland.

So we know what it means to be habitually called cheaters and to be honest, it was water off a ducks back, because it inferred that you were good enough for others to be trying to drag you down. But just to remind you again - my main point - Ireland is the wrong target for a stab at British media.

by **rodders** Mon 18 Jun 2012, 11:12 am

blackcanelion wrote:Rodders. We're in agreement in a lot of things. I'm not saying either side necessarily suffered more under Owens, just as with any games, there's lots of infringing by both sides. I guess I'm just not a fan of his style. The reason why many kiwis comment is we are faced with a constant barrage from the British media that we are serial cheats.

Yeah well I'm not of that view. The ABs push the boundries more than most and its the job of the ref to control that.

We do the same but honestly I wouldn't even be commenting on this if people weren't suggesting that we were getting the rub of the green. It's a pot/kettle thing, you play the ref and you take what you get.

I thought it was a great contest, some boundry pushing and gamesmanship on both sides but the refs calls were swings and roundabouts, you win some you lose some... he can't spot everything and was fair to both sides in my opinion.

It was a fair test played in good spirit and I hope for more of the same next week guinness

by SecretFly Mon 18 Jun 2012, 11:13 am

anotherworldofpain wrote:Not yet Secret! But I am waiting on the poster who complain about it to give me the minute reference so I can checking out and tell him if is correct or was play acceptable!

Didn't need your minute references for the keen eyed eagle glare you give the game with your Irish infringement hat on Wink

I think if you really try hard enough you'll find a hatload of AB unsporting issues ....

by anotherworldofpain Mon 18 Jun 2012, 11:17 am

But I didn't make the claim SecretFly and I didnt noticing it. If someone tells me this place with all blacks obstruction I will look.

My example about Ireland is the first Ireland defense exit after the first lineout in the corner by Ireland line.

Watch here as Ireland run out the ball from behind the goal line, the running line obstruction of the back row and forwards, particular no.6 as they make space to run out for the backs and do the kick. This is blantant and should have been a yellow card by the same standard as Israel Dagg's very harsh yellow. If that is the standard for bad play then should be the same both ways.

by SecretFly Mon 18 Jun 2012, 11:33 am

anotherworldofpain wrote:But I didn't make the claim SecretFly and I didnt noticing it. If someone tells me this place with all blacks obstruction I will look.

My example about Ireland is the first Ireland defense exit after the first lineout in the corner by Ireland line.

Watch here as Ireland run out the ball from behind the goal line, the running line obstruction of the back row and forwards, particular no.6 as they make space to run out for the backs and do the kick. This is blantant and should have been a yellow card by the same standard as Israel Dagg's very harsh yellow. If that is the standard for bad play then should be the same both ways.

So now you're not so much saying Dagg shouldn't have been carded but that it should have been a Holly Wilaboobie-for-tat game? "NZ lose a player, yous should lose one too coz yous did the same thing and the ref didn't see it but I did with my replay button!" Is that the kind of game it should have been? Or should the ref have just played the game the way all refs play a game. See what they see, hear what they don't see (from sideline helpers) and generally be one man on a field controlling a game with his eyes not his replay button. Yes, the Irish were infringed on, nobody makes a big deal about it, Owens didn't pick up on them - refs do and don't. You're the one making the big deal about the yellow act that happened to get caught. Blatant is blatant.

by Thomond Mon 18 Jun 2012, 11:36 am

anotherworldofpain wrote:But I didn't make the claim SecretFly and I didnt noticing it. If someone tells me this place with all blacks obstruction I will look.

My example about Ireland is the first Ireland defense exit after the first lineout in the corner by Ireland line.

Watch here as Ireland run out the ball from behind the goal line, the running line obstruction of the back row and forwards, particular no.6 as they make space to run out for the backs and do the kick. This is blantant and should have been a yellow card by the same standard as Israel Dagg's very harsh yellow. If that is the standard for bad play then should be the same both ways.

I think every team has "blockers" at rucks to prevent teams from applying pressure, England certainly do anyway!

by Mickado Mon 18 Jun 2012, 11:54 am

Liam Tolands view:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0618/1224318139461.html

To understand why a transformed Ireland lost in Christchurch, one has to examine several key decisions by the official, writes LIAM TOLAND

I’VE LONG since understood that when you dance with the bear, the bear decides when the music stops. Last Saturday Ireland danced with the All Blacks toe to toe in Christchurch and although it was Dan Carter who drop-kicked the final nail into Ireland it wasn’t the Kiwis who decided when the music stopped. To understand why Ireland lost it is imperative to delve into our performance and the Kiwis’ but crucially, that of referee Nigel Owens.

The following isn’t the random mutterings of a disgruntled Irish man vexed at a loss, but is rather based on facts which when strung together, had a real bearing on the result.

Clearly Owens can only referee what he sees so in the interest of fair play, I’ll only discuss what he has seen, so I’ve added times to all the points.

On 20 minutes Kiwi blindside Adam Thomson carries into Brian O’Driscoll, with the exceptionally intelligent Rory Best buttressing him as Richie McCaw supports Thomson. They hit the deck and Best, believing he is part of the tackle, stands up and contests the ball. Owens pings him, stating ‘You’re still on your feet, you’re not the tackler, then you have to go back around’. Best might argue but that appears fair; 3-10.

Eight minutes later, McCaw takes a diagonal in field into the arms of Dan Tuohy, who swings him to the ground but doesn’t roll away quick enough. A penalty is a fair call from Owens; 6-10.

As the All Blacks up the ante on 31 minutes and 45 seconds, Mike Ross lunges in while McCaw has his hands on the ball at the base. Ross, who was superb, is a fraction rusty from lack of games and concedes a penalty, as interpreted by Owen. Most referees will give a slight advantage to the “scrumhalf” in order to ensure the flow of ball; 9-10.

On 39 minutes and 22 seconds, Cian Healy carries into contact with All Black secondrow Sam Whitelock, who gets him to ground with the hovering Andrew Hore immediately in to steal the ball. Hore is in so low the next arriving Irish has to get in violently and lower to prevent a steal. That’s exactly what Fergus McFadden and Tuohy manage, perfect body height with a very strong leg pump to drive Hore out of the way and over the ball. Beyond the drive, McFadden goes to ground but with no material effect on the ball or the All Black ability to contest the ball. Owens pings McFadden, declaring ‘off your feet’.

Carter’s subsequent 50-metre attempt at half-time falls short but Owens’ call should be remembered in the opening minutes of the second half. From the All Black kick-off, McCaw contests, winning the ball back. I count 12 tackle areas (breakdowns) where All Blacks go off their feet in the exact same way as McFadden had done minutes earlier. The result is free-flowing continuity from the All Blacks, leading to a converted try; 16-10.

Before we get to Owens’ scrum calls there is the interpretation of the tackler. On 59 minutes and 19 seconds, Tony Woodcock picks from a Ben Franks breakdown and heads dangerously close to the Irish line. Seán O’Brien initially bumps him before Woodcock hits the deck. In that movement, O’Brien detaches from contact and re-engages over the ball and forces the steal. Owens’ interpretation is O’Brien used the floor to support himself; 19-13. This decision would be fair if the following hadn’t happened.

On 47 minutes and 27 seconds, Sexton, on the Kiwi 10-metre line wraps around, Leinster style, to offload to the powerful Brian O’Driscoll on a hard line into Carter. The All Black outhalf swing-tackles him to the deck and while remaining in contact, swings back to his feet, failing to disengage. The subsequent recycle takes 10 seconds and the All Blacks are back in position; danger averted. Why was this not a penalty to Ireland in a very kickable position?

As difficult as the above is to fathom the following is worse. Firstly, Ireland demolish the All Black scrum on 62 minutes and 20 seconds to gain a penalty; 19-16. On 70 minutes and 2 seconds with the precedent set, Eoin Reddan puts the ball into the Irish scrum and the All Blacks are hammered backwards but no penalty as Owens chooses a reset. The reset, on 70 minutes 57 seconds is once again smashed by the Irish and the All Blacks buckle, concede a wheel, but again no penalty.

Four minutes later with the score 19-19, Ireland are in the All Blacks’ half with a put in. The initial hit is good but under immense pressure, sub tighthead Ben Franks drops his bind and Owens, standing right in front of the action, calls a reset; why no penalty? Considering the previous scrums where Ireland had totally demolished the All Blacks the next few moments are bizarre.

On the reset in the 75th minute, Healy, summoning energy from the depths, once again hammers into Franks, who once again drops his bind and shunts backwards. With this, his openside, Sam Cane, disengages from his scrummaging position. Now Franks has no bind and loses a vital scrummager behind him and therefore is powerless. It is criminal that Owens’ interpretation is ‘not a straight wheel, you are running it around’. Due to the preceding actions from Franks and Cane, Healy had no opposition. Once again with the score 19-19 and Ireland in the All Black half, Owens has decided when the music stops.

Ireland managed to change their defensive structures from last week. Starting with much more accurate box kicks afforded the chasing green line a chance to pressurise the All Black wingers, which they did, forcing errors.

The Irish contested much more accurately in the lineout, depreciating the value of their midfield, especially Sonny Bill Williams, who was a shadow of himself. When the All Black midfield got on the ball the Irish were much narrower in defence and affording no light for the Kiwis to attack. The line itself was much more aggressive, so much so Sonny Bill, Israel Dagg and Julian Savea were anonymous.

Of all the performers last Saturday I can’t say enough for Healy and Donnacha Ryan, who summoned superhuman energy levels to remain brilliant for 80 minutes. My moment of the match was where Leinster met Munster following the late hit on Rob Kearney.

Rewind the tape but look where Piri Weepu catches the ball (half-way line exactly) and watch as the scene unfolds as Ryan instructs his captain to place the ball three metres further on! It’s such a pity that kick and Owens fell short.

by BoyneRFC Mon 18 Jun 2012, 12:02 pm

anotherworldofpain wrote:Not yet Secret! But I am waiting on the poster who complain about it to give me the minute reference so I can checking out and tell him if is correct or was play acceptable!

You seriously cannot be a native English speaker are you?

by FitzStephen Mon 18 Jun 2012, 12:05 pm

anotherworldofpain wrote:But I didn't make the claim SecretFly and I didnt noticing it. If someone tells me this place with all blacks obstruction I will look.

My example about Ireland is the first Ireland defense exit after the first lineout in the corner by Ireland line.

Watch here as Ireland run out the ball from behind the goal line, the running line obstruction of the back row and forwards, particular no.6 as they make space to run out for the backs and do the kick. This is blantant and should have been a yellow card by the same standard as Israel Dagg's very harsh yellow. If that is the standard for bad play then should be the same both ways.

Watch right from the second half kickoff. Aaron Smith makes a wee break and is tackled by Murray. Watch out for McCaw. Offside and from the side on O’Driscoll who is attempting to reach ruck (two penalties). Cane recycles and is tackled by Best. McLaughlin attempts to block Retallick but he nonetheless smashes O’Driscoll and goes right off his feet (penalty). Check out McCaw at the other side of the ruck taking Ryan off the ball, offside and from the side (three penalties). Decent offload by Williams takes it to the far side of the pitch and Whitelock brought down. Hore is probably sealing off but we see that all the time and Smith clears the ball to McCaw who is stopped by Sexton and Ross. Thomson comes in from the side (penalty) and flops down on the wrong side, dragging Woodcock with him. They roll away quickly though but not before Woodcock grabs Sexton’s shirt as he goes through the ruck legally (penalty). On the near side of the ruck Franks is not bound and ahead of the ball blocking Mike Ross (penalty). We are now just 36 seconds from the kickoff and have had nine, arguably ten, penalties against NZ. Cane goes through again and heaven-to-Betsy the NZers don’t appear to do anything illegal and O’Brien slows up the ball. McCaw makes another mini-break and is tackled but Woodcock goes straight off his feet and lies on the wrong side so that there is no hope of a contest (penalty). From the next ruck watch McCaw. Probably ok entry but what does he do? Flops around the ruck and prevents O’Brien from getting stuck in (penalty). Woodcock clears the ball to Whitelock and then, from an offside position (penalty) grabs a handful of Ryan’s shirt as he goes forward to make the tackle. Woodcock joins the ruck from the side (penalty) as Nigel looks on allowing quick ball to Carter. He finds Williams who gives O’Driscoll the slip but is brought down by Kearney. Trimble and D’Arcy compete but the NZers compete fairly and McCaw takes it at the line. They are 2m out and from the next phase Aaron Smith gets the try. One minute and 44 seconds is on the clock and by my count there have been 13 penalties that have not been given by Owens.

I'm not saying that Ireland were angels but that short period of play would seem to point the finger at NZ obstructions, offsides and general illegality at the breakdown. But if Owens and every other ref can't spot it then they deserve to get away with it imo. On the Dagg incident - if he was trying to block a kick his hands should've been in the air - they weren't.

by blackcanelion Mon 18 Jun 2012, 12:13 pm

Just the kind of rubbish I dislike. I should have said Irish and British press. I'll turn it around. I don't know how you can possibly say NZ offends more than Ireland. I could say you guys always get away with cheating and probably the worst serial offenders in the world, look here's a link that proves it: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/8512911.stm . It's ok though, it's a compliment.....

Come on seriously. A bit of WUMing is fine. It's a bit to ingrained sometimes.

by **rodders** Mon 18 Jun 2012, 12:15 pm

FitzStephen wrote:
I'm not saying that Ireland were angels but that short period of play would seem to point the finger at NZ obstructions, offsides and general illegality at the breakdown. But if Owens and every other ref can't spot it then they deserve to get away with it imo. On the Dagg incident - if he was trying to block a kick his hands should've been in the air - they weren't.

Absolutely Stag, they do it all the time... block and obstruct from an offside position, wee tugs of the jersey, seal off at rucks, go off their feet... smart play but illegal and it really is one eyed to criticise Ireland but ignore this.

In fairness I have no problem conceding that Best, D'arcy and Ryan in particular walk a fine line at times with their loitering offside at rucks but do tend to pinged for it.

Overall it was a just a full blow test with no quarter given with both sides playing positive stuff, with the best side over 80min winning.

by Thomond Mon 18 Jun 2012, 12:24 pm

Every team cheats, we're making something out of nothing.

by **rodders** Mon 18 Jun 2012, 12:25 pm

blackcanelion wrote:Just the kind of rubbish I dislike. I should have said Irish and British press. I'll turn it around. I don't know how you can possibly say NZ offends more than Ireland. I could say you guys always get away with cheating and probably the worst serial offenders in the world, look here's a link that proves it: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/8512911.stm . It's ok though, it's a compliment.....

Come on seriously. A bit of WUMing is fine. It's a bit to ingrained sometimes.

Honestly I don't know how you can say with a straight face that anyone infringes more at the breakdown than NZ. I'm dumbfounded how people can't see it. McCaw just dives off his feet, ruck after ruck... Conrad Smith offside repeatedly, obstruction after obstruction. No other side gets away with this.

Is that why the ABs are the best side? No. But it helps that they can push the boundries so much.

Ireland try the same, hence I have no complaints but its ludicrous for NZ to criticise any other side.

by SecretFly Mon 18 Jun 2012, 12:28 pm

blackcanelion wrote:Just the kind of rubbish I dislike. I should have said Irish and British press. I'll turn it around. I don't know how you can possibly say NZ offends more than Ireland. I could say you guys always get away with cheating and probably the worst serial offenders in the world, look here's a link that proves it: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_union/8512911.stm . It's ok though, it's a compliment.....

Come on seriously. A bit of WUMing is fine. It's a bit to ingrained sometimes.

The Irish and British press Don't always talk about AB cheating...and I read quite a bit of it...the Irish bit. Again, you pretend you read a lot of Irish press and media - I strongly doubt it, blackcanelion. You read the British press and use it as an all-in reflection of British and Irish opinion. The Lions isn't a country, it's a time when two countries join together out of tradition to go tour down under. But when there is scant Irish involvement I'm scantly interested in the Lions. We're not all the one here - you need to be absolutely clear you understand that when you make your points. We're not all the one here - and the British press and it's opinions (on anything) doesn't speak for me as an Irish person. We have our own opinions, and express them independently.

I don't see many if any people here claim that ABs cheat more than the Irish. Most of us say, the dark arts happen - and the more successful you are, the more you're hit with the charge - even though those who do the accusations know only too well their sides do the dark arts too and are just not so successful at it. Only one guy here talking about yellow cards for dark arts.

by **rodders** Mon 18 Jun 2012, 12:32 pm

Look I've huge respect for NZ and the way they approach the breakdown... in fact we in Ireland are continually to copy them, hence the NZ coaches over here.

I really think this is all nonsence. No side can take a moral highground here and really both sides got a fair crack from the referee.

by anotherworldofpain Mon 18 Jun 2012, 12:57 pm

FitzStephen wrote:
anotherworldofpain wrote:But I didn't make the claim SecretFly and I didnt noticing it. If someone tells me this place with all blacks obstruction I will look.

My example about Ireland is the first Ireland defense exit after the first lineout in the corner by Ireland line.

Watch here as Ireland run out the ball from behind the goal line, the running line obstruction of the back row and forwards, particular no.6 as they make space to run out for the backs and do the kick. This is blantant and should have been a yellow card by the same standard as Israel Dagg's very harsh yellow. If that is the standard for bad play then should be the same both ways.

Watch right from the second half kickoff. Aaron Smith makes a wee break and is tackled by Murray. Watch out for McCaw. Offside and from the side on O’Driscoll who is attempting to reach ruck (two penalties). Cane recycles and is tackled by Best. McLaughlin attempts to block Retallick but he nonetheless smashes O’Driscoll and goes right off his feet (penalty). Check out McCaw at the other side of the ruck taking Ryan off the ball, offside and from the side (three penalties). Decent offload by Williams takes it to the far side of the pitch and Whitelock brought down. Hore is probably sealing off but we see that all the time and Smith clears the ball to McCaw who is stopped by Sexton and Ross. Thomson comes in from the side (penalty) and flops down on the wrong side, dragging Woodcock with him. They roll away quickly though but not before Woodcock grabs Sexton’s shirt as he goes through the ruck legally (penalty). On the near side of the ruck Franks is not bound and ahead of the ball blocking Mike Ross (penalty). We are now just 36 seconds from the kickoff and have had nine, arguably ten, penalties against NZ. Cane goes through again and heaven-to-Betsy the NZers don’t appear to do anything illegal and O’Brien slows up the ball. McCaw makes another mini-break and is tackled but Woodcock goes straight off his feet and lies on the wrong side so that there is no hope of a contest (penalty). From the next ruck watch McCaw. Probably ok entry but what does he do? Flops around the ruck and prevents O’Brien from getting stuck in (penalty). Woodcock clears the ball to Whitelock and then, from an offside position (penalty) grabs a handful of Ryan’s shirt as he goes forward to make the tackle. Woodcock joins the ruck from the side (penalty) as Nigel looks on allowing quick ball to Carter. He finds Williams who gives O’Driscoll the slip but is brought down by Kearney. Trimble and D’Arcy compete but the NZers compete fairly and McCaw takes it at the line. They are 2m out and from the next phase Aaron Smith gets the try. One minute and 44 seconds is on the clock and by my count there have been 13 penalties that have not been given by Owens.

I'm not saying that Ireland were angels but that short period of play would seem to point the finger at NZ obstructions, offsides and general illegality at the breakdown. But if Owens and every other ref can't spot it then they deserve to get away with it imo. On the Dagg incident - if he was trying to block a kick his hands should've been in the air - they weren't.

It seem to indicate you don't understand the laws fully unfortunately by the way. The problem is a lot of NH fans decide where the off-side line is by definition of where mcCaw is standing. A lot of time he is on-side and within the law and just not understood by the NH fans. If there is tackle and not yet ruck then the tackler can get the ball from any position. Also from his position he don't have to moving. He cannot move to block the player but he can stand and get in the way and is legal.

Same same Pocock. I know some SA posters get upset about RWC Qfinal. But really is just good work and a bit silly the team play against.

by Guest Mon 18 Jun 2012, 1:24 pm

I think Ummm's comment on that piece by Toland sums up my feelings brilliantly. Well done Ummm,

by blackcanelion Mon 18 Jun 2012, 1:41 pm

I read the Irish times rugby section almost daily. If I've slipped and said British instead of Irish, or Irish and British I apologise. I can assure you I know the difference, I've been to both northern Ireland and Eire a number of times. My grandmothers family is from near Enniskillen, and she passed away a staunch Irish catholic, my wife's English and some of her forbears were kicked out of the republic back in the day. I come on here to get another perspective on rugby. I don't always agree with others on here, but I appreciate the different perspective and I hope that in some way it does broaden my views. Whether I'm successful or not is a matter of debate.

However, back to the matter at hand. All I did above was to turn the argument around to illustrate the effect. You may not think that any posters or press have said that AB's cheated more than Ireland. To my mind it's inferred from the posts and in Liam Tolands article. The same was true for the live commentary I watched. In the first it's structured as a commentary on the ref, but in reality when read as whole it clearly infers that the AB's got away with a lot and that the Ireland was hard done by. To be fair it's a bit of an over reaction on my part, having just read the article, as the Irish Times is often pretty fair.

Now I'm not saying that the AB's don't infringe, but cataloging a list of inconsistencies and missed penalties by one side adds little in itself. It doesn't provide much in terms of a meaningful assessment of the referee, or how obstructive the sides were. If Liam wanted to be constructive he could have shown the tape of it to an ex Ireland and an ex All Black international and got their comments. According to a post I recently read on the SAreferees website meetings of international coaches and referees have problems agreeing on offenses at rugby. A one sided assessment therefore needs to viewed with a large dose of skepticism.

To leave on a positive note. Irrespective of the result. It's one of the best performances I've seen by a visiting side in NZ in the professional era. Take all the debate about who did what, and who missed what out of the equation. Ireland shaded NZ in areas of the game and controlled the game at times. The fact that we are even having this debate is because they put themselves in a position to win the match. A decision the other way could have seen a different result. I for one wouldn't have begrudged them the win or draw. Over and out......

by disneychilly Mon 18 Jun 2012, 1:54 pm

Thomond wrote:Every team cheats, we're making something out of nothing.

Hear hear. NZ are the best side therefore the biggest cheats.

by **rodders** Mon 18 Jun 2012, 1:55 pm

blackcanelion guinness

.

I concur that Tolands peice is one eyed nonsence, most of the Irish media is in my opinion... attack the article by all means...but two wrongs don't make a right, if the NZ press and fans are indicating that we were getting away with more and that Owens favoured us then I can't accept that either.

Neither side can have too much complaints in my opinion, both played on the edge and got their dues.

Ireland didn't deserve to win and NZ didn't deserve to win by more than 3 points.

by **rodders** Mon 18 Jun 2012, 1:56 pm

... Enniskillen, lovely part of the world

by Thomond Mon 18 Jun 2012, 2:00 pm

It's no Cork I'll tell you that.....

I think Ireland should have won that game. The ABs shouldn't have been in it, we gave away stupid penalties in kickable areas. We were dominant in certain areas and at times the ABs struggled. Shame we lost but we will hopefully learn from it.

by munkian Mon 18 Jun 2012, 2:02 pm

anotherworldofpain wrote:You don't need any more evidence than watch Owens when all balcks score the try.

He sound so dejected and wont award the try even though is clear.

The tone in his voice is so deflated when he ask "Oh, is it a try? I can't see." just listen to the tone of his voice he is upset and angry.

This man is truely referee from stone age and must be move on for better younger referee who are fit to keep up with the match and not favour one team.

I'm not sure where you've gotten this idea he is tubby and un-fit - he's cut like a steak

by blackcanelion Mon 18 Jun 2012, 2:03 pm

Yeh, I have to admit to loving Ireland. Especially the west coast. Kind of reminds me of parts of NZ. People are great, Guinness is fantastic, weather, well I wont go there.....

by **rodders** Mon 18 Jun 2012, 2:06 pm

black

by SecretFly Mon 18 Jun 2012, 2:07 pm

blackcanelion wrote:Yeh, I have to admit to loving Ireland. Especially the west coast. Kind of reminds me of parts of NZ. People are great, Guinness is fantastic, weather, well I wont go there.....

You see!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We're bloody marvelous people...so bloody well let us win the next game! That's all you have to do, let us win - we're happy we have the chimp off our back, you're happy too 'cause we don't half groan about that chimp and you can start the whole process of not letting us win for the next thousand years all over again the next time we meet up? How about it?

by Thomond Mon 18 Jun 2012, 2:10 pm

It's hardly a chimp at this stage. More like a feicing Gorilla!

by SecretFly Mon 18 Jun 2012, 2:15 pm

Thomond wrote:It's hardly a chimp at this stage. More like a feicing Gorilla!

No that lad's name is Healy.

by **rodders** Mon 18 Jun 2012, 2:16 pm

As a wise man once said,

you'll never get a monkey off your back if you keep feeding him bananas monkey

by SecretFly Mon 18 Jun 2012, 2:26 pm

rodders wrote:As a wise man once said,

you'll never get a monkey off your back if you keep feeding him bananas

And he should know, it took him 40 years to perfect the theory...when his monkey up and died on him.

by thebluesmancometh Mon 18 Jun 2012, 6:13 pm

This tubby Welshman is the center of a lot of controversy. And is it time to give him the pension and move on with younger fitter referees who can keep up with the rules and the match?

Suddenly decent English.

Also this 'tubby' welshman you speak of is actually an ex body builder, a bit of a fitness fenatic I hear and has recently recorded a Yo Yo test result that would trump a huge amount of international players.

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