England team for SA Northern Barbarians

First topic message reminder :

Apologies if it's been already posted:

15 Nick Abendanon (Bath Rugby)
14 Christian Wade (London Wasps)
13 Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers)
12 Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins)
11 Ugo Monye (Harlequins)
10 Charlie Hodgson (Saracens)
9 Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
1 Matt Mullan (Worcester Warriors)
2 Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
3 Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints)
4 Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers)
5 George Robson (capt, Harlequins)
6 Jamie Gibson (London Irish)
7 Carl Fearns (Bath Rugby)
8 Ben Morgan (Scarlets)

Replacements
16 Joe Gray (Harlequins)
17 Rupert Harden (Gloucester Rugby)
18 Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
19 James Haskell (Otago Highlanders)
20 Karl Dickson (Harlequins)
21 David Strettle (Saracens)
22 Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)

Suggest to me for the 3rd test: Dave Strettle will be replaced, Waldrom to start.

P.S I am a massive fan of Jonny May so over the moon!

PJHolybloke wrote:Do you need to go out for a walk Hound?

Ya Barff gobshoite.



Sorry, but I was in a pub in Exeter and the phone battery went dead. Hence the lack of prior response.
Now back in the hotel and 'charging up'.

Just cos May's a Glaws lad, it doesn't matter to me when he's got that Red Rose on his left Holly Wilaboobie


You've gotta be pleased with Abendanon's tries and Fearns' contribution tonight.

I'm happy that Bendy put himself about, but he's not good enough to oust Foden or Brown for England.

I'm really pleased about Fearns though, Bath really missed that sort of grunt last season and I can see a backrow of Louw, Mercer and Fearns being a proper handful IF they all stay fit.

This tour has come a couple of months and half a dozen games too soon for Fearns, he's still got some way to go to be back at his best, but his best is definitely something to look forward to for Bath and England.

Oh, and I quite agree about May too. To be honest, I don't dislike Glaws at all, but don't let and that slip to Prop, that would never do - dorty shedder.

Hit the feicen Edit button bud.

Now!!
:;

Our tackling was rubbish in that game though. Not good enough from guys with Prem experience.

Normal service has resumed.

Yeah, it's been poor all tour to be fair. The biggest problem seems to be at the gainline, missing that first tackle is borderline lethal against any Saffer team. The number of missed tackles has been woeful when you look at the stats.

I would have liked to have seen a back row of Haskell, Robshaw and (a fully fit) Fearns at No.8, obviously that's not going to happen now, but could be one for the AI's.

It would be nice if Farrell comes back to the fold now he's left Sarries, we'll have to wait and see.

Quality from May. First bit of game time since end of season, it's all about quality.

Can someone summarise for me? I was at a mini-conert thing only know he result and have surmised from it that we were attacking nicely (heard good things about Allen, Abs and May) and our tackling sucked

Decent enough attack, though difficult to judge from the opposition. General defence and in particular first up tackles were poor. Good performances from Fearns, Youngs, Abendanon and May who looked very sharp when he came on.

Probably the best ball in hand display by an England side for some time - maybe the first sign of Catt's influence. Defence was a mess, but Farrell will come back and sort that so I'm not too worried.

Interesting that Fearns was picked at 7 and Gibson at 6. I think England see 7 as his best position.

May certainly has star quality, he could end up a FB in the longterm but where will Davies use him I wonder?

Very impressed with Allen tonight. I don't think he's got the physical presence to play 12 at international level but he's an understated, intelligent and classy player.

Bearing in mind the game last night and *this article*, I'd be looking at a 22 of:

Corbisiero, Hartley (C), Cole, Palmer, Parling, Haskell, Fearns, Waldrom.
Care, Flood, Ashton, Allen, Tuilagi, Joseph, Foden.
T. Youngs, Marler, Kitchener, Morgan, L. Dickson, Farrell, May.

I was really impressed with Tom Youngs, Kitchener and Fearns in the forwards, while Morgan had a good game too. Allen was outstanding in the backs, and May was very sharp when he came on.

Maybe I'm reading to much into it, but Lee Dickson was subbed at half-time, his place on the bench on Saturday obviously assured. Youngs and Kitchener were both brought off fairly early (even though they were playing well), which I hope is because they'd played their way onto the test bench. Fearns and Allen stayed on, which doesn't rule them out, but means it may be unlikely to see them, but this was a Tuesday night game and not a Wednesday afternoon game, so they'll have more time to recover.

I thought Fearns had good moments, but also went missing for large parts of the game. Morgan was fairly quiet, but lasted to the end. The two young tigers forwards went well but I doubt either will make the Test 22 this weekend.

while he is being slated for defence (and it was one missed tackle - mainly because of Dickson's interference) hodgson was the ultimate conductor of the attack. His intelligence with ball in hand and timing of the pass was excellent. Hopefully Farrell can learn from him.

I expect the weekends line-up to be:

Corbs, Hartley, Cole, Palmer, Parling, Johnson, Haskell, Waldrom
Care, Flood, Foden, Barritt (if fit), Manu, Ashton, Goode
Mears, Marler, Botha, Morgan, Dickson, Farrell, Joseph

The only thing for Morgan was that he started on Saturday and then got a full game on Tuesday. It'd be asking a lot for him to play from the start this weekend as well, I don't think there's any way he can be picked.

Hodgson did put in a very classy performance. Probably not in contention for a test place, but will have done wonders for the players outside him.

Hmm, a fair bit of golden boy club bias there methinks, he certainly wasn't a grade higher than every one else to my eyes. Is one of those tries he created the Abendanon one? Wade did all the work to create that

I think he also tipped his hand with his grading of Youngs & Fearns. Both showed up well and were on a par for me, but Youngs got an 8 and Fearns a 7.

For the first point mbenz, the drawing of the first man and delayed pass to cut out the second gave Wade a 2 on 2 situation with the second defender being one coming across to cover. The creation of space gave the little man all he needed to allow Abendanon a walk in. Don't underestimate the value of a centre that draws his man in or that pulls defenders out of position with a delayed pass!

Fearns would have been give a 9 and the MOTM had he performed in the second half to the same standard he did in the first. However, the bone rattling takles and monster carries all but disappeared in the second period hence his reduction in mark. Allen was consistently high class for all 80 mins. The idea of club bias is a bit iffy seeing as I cut Kitchener down for not doing enough in the tight despite the commentators and some posters waxing the lyrical over his contributions in the loose.

Not sure I would rate anyone on the England team higher than 7/10 - as the opposition were not very good.

Youngs, May, Abendanon - 7
Allen, Fearns - 6.5
Hodgson, Dickson - 6
Wade, JTH, Morgan, Kitchener, Robson, Mullan - 5
Gibson, PDJ - 4

Think you're being a bit kind to Robson there LT, a second row who gets run over by a scrum half 2m from his own line does not deserve much in the way of marks. Abendanon was pretty iffy in defence (tap tackle should have been a proper tackle and would have saved the try, he wussed out).

formerly known as Sam wrote:Think you're being a bit kind to Robson there LT, a second row who gets run over by a scrum half 2m from his own line does not deserve much in the way of marks. Abendanon was pretty iffy in defence (tap tackle should have been a proper tackle and would have saved the try, he wussed out).

Robson gained marks for the pass to May for his second try, and making a couple of iffy throws look good. He then lost them for a lack of physicality.

Bendy is pretty much always iffy in defence and hopefully will not play for the full team again. However a hat-trick deserves some recognition.

Of course all such marks are subjective - and prone to preconceptions and bias.

LondonTiger wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Think you're being a bit kind to Robson there LT, a second row who gets run over by a scrum half 2m from his own line does not deserve much in the way of marks. Abendanon was pretty iffy in defence (tap tackle should have been a proper tackle and would have saved the try, he wussed out).

Robson gained marks for the pass to May for his second try, and making a couple of iffy throws look good. He then lost them for a lack of physicality.

Bendy is pretty much always iffy in defence and hopefully will not play for the full team again. However a hat-trick deserves some recognition.

Of course all such marks are subjective - and prone to preconceptions and bias.

This is a worrying trend running through our Second rows....as is the concerning lack of fitness of our potential barnstorming 8's Morgan and Fearns.

I think think these and centres are the two positions that need serious attention to after this tour. The rest are beginning to take shape....

But I think we still have potential and options in the centres it's just trying to pick one that fits our plan and let them play together. Second row is the key issue.

While centre has been a problem for quite some time now***, I think if we sort the pack out we can then better understand the needs at 12 and 13. For a number of years we have been creating such slow ball that it is hard to shine among the outside backs.


*** In descending order of appearances, the following have started for England in the centre over the last 5 years:

Tindall, Flutey, Hape, Noon, Tuilagi, Tait, Flood, Hipkiss, Barritt, Catt, Barkley, Andy Farrell, Banahan, Owen Farrell, Geraghty, May, Erinle & Joseph

In that time we have played 62 tests yet the most capped centre of the period has played just 22 times, not much more than 1/3rd.

Yeah your right...at centre we have to get the correct combo...we have the players.

Second row is a big concern.

ChequeredJersey wrote:But I think we still have potential and options in the centres it's just trying to pick one that fits our plan and let them play together. Second row is the key issue.

CJ, spot on - for me that has to be England's biggest weakness at the moment - virtually zero in carrying terms from the boiler-room

LondonTiger wrote:While centre has been a problem for quite some time now***, I think if we sort the pack out we can then better understand the needs at 12 and 13. For a number of years we have been creating such slow ball that it is hard to shine among the outside backs.


*** In descending order of appearances, the following have started for England in the centre over the last 5 years:

Tindall, Flutey, Hape, Noon, Tuilagi, Tait, Flood, Hipkiss, Barritt, Catt, Barkley, Andy Farrell, Banahan, Owen Farrell, Geraghty, May, Erinle & Joseph

In that time we have played 62 tests yet the most capped centre of the period has played just 22 times, not much more than 1/3rd.

wow thats some stat

It's a very disturbing fact, some very average players in that list right there as well.

Geordie, good stats.
Standing back and looking at it from a 5 yr perspective, it really highlights a major England problem in finding a settled partnership, or even the necessary basic talent. As Sam says, disturbing.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:But I think we still have potential and options in the centres it's just trying to pick one that fits our plan and let them play together. Second row is the key issue.

CJ, spot on - for me that has to be England's biggest weakness at the moment - virtually zero in carrying terms from the boiler-room

If fit at the same time, Attwood Lawes combo would take care of most requirements.

How are either are running a lineout? With Wood or Croft backed up by Attwood, Lawes and Captain Robshaw the actual jumping looks ok but who would run it? I know nothing about who leads Saints or Bath's lineouts

Hooper runs Bath's lineout, however its not clear whether he will actually be able to make the team again, so if Attwood could step up that would be good for Bath and I'm sure wouldnt do his international ambitions any harm at all.

The problem is that Lawes seems permanently injured...and Attwood is a pale version of the animal that came on the scene a few years ago.

We need competition...

Attwood to regain that form
Lawes to stay injury free. Is he to physical for his lean physique?
Garvey to show that the management simply cant avaoid him anymore. Why they are anyway im not sure?
launchbury to have another sublime season for Waps...he is the real deal.

Others
Kitchener, Slater etc to have another good season with plenty of games and continue to improve

I firmly believe we need to end the trial of Robson and Botha. Palmer has began the decline from being decent (not great) so should go and whlst Parling will do a good job in the lineout at the moment...he is also a stop gap.

Bathman_in_London wrote:Hooper runs Bath's lineout, however its not clear whether he will actually be able to make the team again, so if Attwood could step up that would be good for Bath and I'm sure wouldnt do his international ambitions any harm at all.

LI fans have said that Garvey runs the linout for them aswell....i wasnt aware of that.

I reckon Skivington is going to grow nexto Garvey at Irish

GeordieFalcon wrote:
I firmly believe we need to end the trial of Robson and Botha. Palmer has began the decline from being decent (not great) so should go and whlst Parling will do a good job in the lineout at the moment...he is also a stop gap.

I completely agree, Parling is very much a stop gap in my opinion, unless he can start stealing more opposition ball. If some of those names can get a decent start to the season, hopefully by the AI's or at least by the 6Ns we will have a new second row partnership.

I'd hoped Kitchener would come through more at Leicester, maybe with Skivington gone he can make the shirt his?

Bathman_in_London wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:
I firmly believe we need to end the trial of Robson and Botha. Palmer has began the decline from being decent (not great) so should go and whlst Parling will do a good job in the lineout at the moment...he is also a stop gap.

I completely agree, Parling is very much a stop gap in my opinion, unless he can start stealing more opposition ball. If some of those names can get a decent start to the season, hopefully by the AI's or at least by the 6Ns we will have a new second row partnership.

I'd hoped Kitchener would come through more at Leicester, maybe with Skivington gone he can make the shirt his?

He is develping nicely..and according to a few Leicester fans the lineout calls are very difficult to learn...so takes time. Im not a lineout expert so wouldnt know.

He looks quite physical aswell so might be the answer.

This season will give us SO many answers to so many positional queries for England.

We hope

GeordieFalcon wrote:The problem is that Lawes seems permanently injured...and Attwood is a pale version of the animal that came on the scene a few years ago.

We need competition...

Attwood to regain that form
Lawes to stay injury free. Is he to physical for his lean physique?
Garvey to show that the management simply cant avaoid him anymore. Why they are anyway im not sure?
launchbury to have another sublime season for Waps...he is the real deal.

Others
Kitchener, Slater etc to have another good season with plenty of games and continue to improve

I firmly believe we need to end the trial of Robson and Botha. Palmer has began the decline from being decent (not great) so should go and whlst Parling will do a good job in the lineout at the moment...he is also a stop gap.

None of them really proven at international level yet tho, Geordie? I guess time will tell

Too many players, not enough matches to trial them all in.

Just like the centre problems it takes a lot of guess work from the coaches and then sticking with the player for a while or else we'll change every week.

My hopes are on Launchbury

As for the Leicester names mentioned...

Skivington (now former Leicester) - is 29 and a good solid player that LI fans will certainly appreciate. Think he's a bit like Palmer in that he's not physical enough to be an enforcer and not good enough at the lineout to be a technician. Can't see him making an impact despite his improvements at Tigers.

Kitchener - very raw when he signed on and still a work in progress, plays more like a backrower than a lock when not at the lineout. Tigers have improved his lineout skills considerably and just need to tighten up his ability in the tight.

Slater - rarer than a steak that's still breathing when he arrived. Vast improvements have been made but consistency is still an issue. Could be an exceptional player with a little more fine tuning. He certainly has the required power and skillset to be a modern day enforcer but his apprentiship in the dark arts under Louis Deacon will continue this season.

Sam how old is Slater? And is he as massive as he looks?

formerly known as Sam wrote:As for the Leicester names mentioned...

Skivington (now former Leicester) - is 29 and a good solid player that LI fans will certainly appreciate. Think he's a bit like Palmer in that he's not physical enough to be an enforcer and not good enough at the lineout to be a technician. Can't see him making an impact despite his improvements at Tigers.

Kitchener - very raw when he signed on and still a work in progress, plays more like a backrower than a lock when not at the lineout. Tigers have improved his lineout skills considerably and just need to tighten up his ability in the tight.

Slater - rarer than a steak that's still breathing when he arrived. Vast improvements have been made but consistency is still an issue. Could be an exceptional player with a little more fine tuning. He certainly has the required power and skillset to be a modern day enforcer but his apprentiship in the dark arts under Louis Deacon will continue this season.

Wow thats rare Sam!!

Well his under good people learning off Cockers and deacon about being a tough forward in the tight....

How's Deacon's injury looking?

...and Cranes

Sam how old is Slater? And is he as massive as he looks?

I've not met him Yappy as I haven't been able to get down to A League fixtures like I used to and they are the best place for bumping into first teamers and getting a close look at the lads coming through. I gather he is about 6 foot 6 and about 18 stone so he should be as big as he seems but those stats are not always 100% right. He always seems to add the right physical presence when he comes on and he has played 8 a couple of times with good reviews.

Slater is 23 but didn't come through the academy in the conventional sense. He is a Leicester boy who's family moved away and after playing a lot of club rugby he dropped out of Uni to travel and ended up at a semi pro club in Australia. Someone in Leicester mentioned him to a Tigers scout and they arranged for a trial at Nottingham with a view to bringing him in long term if he faired well in the Championship. A second row injury crisis got him to Tigers on loan and he never went back, never played for Notts in the end.

CJ, Deacs was injury free by the end of the season but with the A League concluded there was no way of getting him match fit in time for the Semi Final or Final and so he is just working towards starting next season. We could really do with him back for the full season as it's like Cockers says, the pack is always 10% better at everything when Louis is playing. Crane is in a similar boat, he was waterboy for the last few months.

Does any one think it would be worth getting Deacon back in to the EPS to help bring on a new lock next to him?

He can do a lot of the grunt stuff and run the lineout letting the other player just get used to Int level. Maybe Deacon and Parling?

I don't think Deacon will solve our problems. Look at Etzberth, fresh out of the Under-20s and partnered with the uncapped Kruger, he's looked completely at home in International rugby. It's about finding the right players that can cut it at International level. Right now we're looking for two dynamic, powerful locks, and I think Deacon lacks the dynamism to make a big impact at International level.

Attwood, Garvey, Lawes and Kitchener would be my 4 locks for the Autumn. Possibly Launchberry in there as a lock/back row option as well. Identify the players who could make good Internationals, pick the two form players by the time November comes around and stick with them through the series. Reassess in January.

Etzebeth can play, but when he started pushing Farrell in the face during the first Test touchline handbags, he was "hiding" behind a centre.

Call me a dinosaur, throw-back or Neanderthal, but I would have been on him like a tramp on chips after that, got right up in his face to see exactly what he was made of; but nobody stepped up. He did something similar in the second Test too, but I can't remember exactly what it was.

When you play rugby in SA, you do so with absolutely no holds barred, Lancaster didn't take a squad there that was capable of standing up to the physicality of their senior players, to watch a kid start to play-up like that without being put under manners tells you all you need to know about England's current limitations.

I am not an advocate of violent rugby, but I have started to wonder where England's balls are, you just can't let some things go unchecked, if you do, you will lose.

Attwood would be a start.

You'd expect players like Hartley to get involved if there was a flare up, Haskell as well usually likes to get in peoples faces so it'll be interesting to see this Sat if he does mix it up.

If not then maybe Lancaster is being a bit too nice?