England XV vs Barbarians / Red Roses vs Barbarians

Red Roses v Barbarians, 12.45 Sunday 2 June

England Women
15. Sarah McKenna (Saracens Women)
14. Lydia Thompson (Worcester Valkyries)
13. Lagi Tuima (Bristol Bears Women)
12. Amber Reed (Bristol Bears Women)
11. Kelly Smith (Gloucester-Hartpury Women’s RFC)
10. Zoe Harrison (Saracens Women)
9. Leanne Riley (Harlequins Ladies)
1. Hannah Botterman (Saracens Women)
2. Lark Davies (Worcester Valkyries)
3. Sarah Bern (Bristol Bears Women)
4. Zoe Aldcroft (Gloucester-Hartpury Women’s RFC)
5. Abbie Scott (Harlequins Ladies)
6. Poppy Cleall (Saracens Women)
7. Jo Brown (Loughborough Lightning)
8. Sarah Hunter (Captain) (Loughborough Lightning)

Finishers
16. Clara Nielson (Bristol Bears Women)
17. Ellena Perry (Saracens Women)
18. Chloe Edwards (Harlequins Ladies)
19. Rosie Galligan (Saracens Women)
20. Rowena Burnfield (Richmond FC)
21. Natasha Hunt (Gloucester-Hartpury Women’s RFC)
22. Tatyana Heard (Gloucester-Hartpury Women’s RFC)
23. Carys Williams (Loughborough Lightning)

Barbarians Women
15 Danielle Waterman (Wasps & England) 82 caps
14 Jasmine Joyce (Worcester Valkyries & Wales) 15
13 Emily Wood (Gloucester Hartpury & England) 4
12 Sene Naoupu (Old Belvedere & Ireland) 34
11 Tova Derk (Wasps) 0
10 Elinor Snowsill (Bristol Bears & Wales, vice-captain) 53
9 Kristina Sue (Fielding Old Boys Oroua & New Zealand) 15
1 Rochelle Clark (Wasps & England) 137
2 Fiao’o Fa’amausili (Auckland Marist & New Zealand) 57
3 Steph Te Ohaere-Fox (Christchurch & New Zealand, vice-captain) 25
4 Carmen Farmer (Glendale & USA) 11
5 Dalena Dennison (Warringah & Australia) 12
6 Justine Lavea (Ardmore Marist & New Zealand) 34
7 Claire Molloy (Wasps & Ireland) 69
8 Linda Itunu (Ponsonby & New Zealand, Captain) 40

Replacements
16 Heather Kerr (Darlington MP & England) 16
17 Laura Keates (Worcester Valkyries & England) 60
18 Gaelle Mignot (Montpellier & France) 70
19 Tamara Taylor (Darlington MP & England) 115
20 Georgina Gulliver (Saracens & England) 37
21 Hannah Casey (Saracens & Ireland) 7
22 Ceri Large (Gloucester Hartpury & England) 52
23 Kayla Ahki (Unattached) 0


Quilter Cup 3.30pm Sunday 2 June

England Men
15 Simon Hammersley (Newcastle Falcons)
14 Piers O’Conor (Bristol Bears)
13 Joe Marchant (Harlequins)
12 Johnny Williams (Newcastle Falcons)
11 Josh Bassett (Wasps)
10 Marcus Smith (Harlequins)
9 Alex Mitchell (Northampton Saints)

1 Ross Harrison (Sale Sharks)
2 Tom Dunn (Bath Rugby)
3 Ehren Painter (Northampton Saints)
4 Elliott Stooke (Bath Rugby)
5 Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks) captain
6 Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins)
7 Ben Curry (Sale Sharks)
8 Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)

Finishers

16 Tommy Taylor (Wasps, 1 cap)
17 Beno Obano (Bath Rugby)
18 Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
19 Will Spencer (Leicester Tigers)
20 Tom Ellis (Bath Rugby)
21 Ben White (Leicester Tigers)
22 Callum Sheedy (Bristol Bears)
23 Ben Loader (London Irish)

Barbarians
15 Charles Piutau (Bristol Bears & New Zealand)
14 Niyi Adeolokun (Connacht & Ireland)
13 Malakai Fekitoa (Toulon & New Zealand)
12 Mark Atkinson (Gloucester)
11 Taqele Naiyaravoro (Northampton Saints & Australia)
10 Colin Slade (Pau & New Zealand)
9 Rhys Webb (Toulon & Wales)
1 Joe Marler (Harlequins & England)
2 Richard Hibbard (Dragons & Wales)
3 John Afoa (Bristol Bears & New Zealand)
4 James Horwill (Harlequins & Australia, Captain)
5 Chris Vui (Bristol Bears & Samoa)
6 Steven Luatua (Bristol Bears & New Zealand)
7 Francois Louw (Bath & South Africa)
8 Viliame Mata (Edinburgh & Fiji)

Replacements
16 David Heffernan (Connacht & Ireland)
17 Pierre Schoeman (Edinburgh)
18 Finlay Bealham (Connacht & Ireland)
19 Facundo Isa (Toulon & Argentina)
20 Liam Messam (Toulon & New Zealand)
21 Rhodri Williams (Dragons & Wales)
22 Brock James (Bordeaux Begles)
23 Filipo Nakosi (Toulon)

An interesting contrast between the two matches. 31 of the 46 women are England Internationals, supplemented with a range of NH and SH players. Only a handful are uncapped. Whereas in the men's game, an England XXIII with only two capped players faces a vastly more experienced Barbarians squad. I'd expect the greater experience as a team from the Red Roses to make the difference in their match - though there's enough experience in the BaaBaas squad to spring a few surprises. In the men's game, I think we are all expecting a comfortable victory for the BaaBaas, but the question is how long this very green England side can live with them, and whether the pack can win enough ball to give a talented backline a chance to show what they can do.

Owens doing the same as last year and ignoring fouls because it's the baa baa s. Linesman calling pen against curry for a bind but Owen's feels it was slowing down the game too much.

Mitchell Dombrandt and Smith all growing into the game.

I like the way the commentary team occasionally seem to call Dombrandt "Dom Brandt", as if his name is Dominic Brandt.

Dombrant, Mitchell and Marchant doing themselves no harm. Very tidy performance so far from a very fresh side.

Imagine Dombrant when he gets in shape....scary.

Where can I listen to this, BBC seem to have decided that they don't want to touch it with a barge pole.

41 -31 at the moment, how long to go?

How is Marler doing against Painter or other way around?

Marler is off. Ba's have an edge in the scrum but the young lads did ok.

how long to go

Well Jones was sat there watching and I know the general view is that no one here is on the plane without a fair few injuries but Dombrandt marchant and Smith will be making him think.

Well, that was a pretty impressive performance by the England tyros. Two scratch sides, but the gulf in experience was huge and England made it irrelevant.

The scrum was a bit dodgy, but the defence was good until the last quarter and several players really impressed - Marchant in particular was involved in a large proportion of the good stufff.

Smith hasn't got a realistic chance of making the WC squad but Dombrant and Marchant have a real shout.

Is Dombradt a 6/8 or just a 6? I'd be tempted to select him over Hughes if he can cover 8.

He's covered both for quins.

He played some of his best games at 8 and generally hes expected to be Easters successor there long term. Hes a great change from a lot of the light dynamic 8s England seem to produce (other then Billy).

Sounds like a great game and good to hear the Quins boys went well, all 3 have a lot of potential.
.

It was a pleasingly mature performance. In addition to the Quins’ lads I thought Mitchell showed up quite well. I had the impression before the game that he was a steady Wigglesworth type scrum half, but he is quite an expansive player. He has a quick and accurate pass too. Very promising.

The thing about Dombrandt is that he seems to understand how to use his size. For such a powerful player, he is surprisingly subtle. He is a very exciting player and I would also be tempted to include him ahead of Hughes.

Marchant is a classy player and I remember him doing a scooped take that the Sky commentary would have creamed over, if it was an All Black doing it.

Bassett looks a Premiership standard wing and nothing more to me.  Hammersley was okay, but there was a lot of broken field to run into.

Did not see all the game. but from what i did see Marchant was so good he reminded me of Jonathon  Joseph, with his dancing feet and all.

Dombrant, like another Martin Johnson type player all over the place making a nusance of him self. Marcus Smith, surely must be a shoe for the world cup.

On that note How many of this squad will make the world cup/ 6ns later this year.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Smith hasn't got a realistic chance of making the WC squad but Dombrant and Marchant have a real shout.

Is Dombradt a 6/8 or just a 6? I'd be tempted to select him over Hughes if he  can cover 8.

Barring injuries I am not sure any have a realistic chance. They all have to go on 5 weeks vacation now. In 3 weeks time the first elements of the larger training squad will convene with the remainder joining a week and two weeks later.

IMO Eddie is unlikely to call up any new faces in the later weeks.

When is England’s larger RWC squad announced by Eddie Jones?

maestegmafia wrote:When is England’s larger RWC squad announced by Eddie Jones?

I believe that, technically not until early next month, though I have not seen anything official. The plan seems to be that players are given some kind of fitness maintenance plan for their mandatory 5 week break, then they return to a summer training camp. The squad only being announced when everyone is back. However the players themselves will know they are in contention and the press will spot who is at the camps early.

LondonTiger wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Smith hasn't got a realistic chance of making the WC squad but Dombrant and Marchant have a real shout.

Is Dombradt a 6/8 or just a 6? I'd be tempted to select him over Hughes if he  can cover 8.

Barring injuries I am not sure any have a realistic chance. They all have to go on 5 weeks vacation now. In 3 weeks time the first elements of the larger training squad will convene with the remainder joining a week and two weeks later.

IMO Eddie is unlikely to call up any new faces in the later weeks.

It'll be a bit of kick in the nuts if he doesn't even take a look at a few of these lads in training. You'd imagine they'd have been told before the Ba's game that this is their chance to shine and impress EJ (Well in my head anyway). Everybody loves a bolter!

Is this too many backrowers?

Wilson, Dombrant, Underhill, Curry, Robshaw, Vunipola.....

It would be a huge surprise if Eddie actually took any of the Barbarians squad to the RWC. It's clear from all the coverage that they were selected exclusively from players who weren't in contention for squad places - hence the staggering lack of experience.

That said, the performance they put together might earn a few of them call ups to the camp, if only to keep the established players on their toes. But actually taking any of them to the RWC is a call so far beyond brave as to be foolhardy, especially given that the squad will contain a lot of relatively inexperienced players anyway. There are likely to be at least 5 sub-10 cap players across prop, back row and scrum half, and at least one full back who's only played a few games there internationally.

That said, several of those players have put themselves in a position where an injury during the tournament could well see them on a plane.

Marchant in particular looks ready - in addition to his breaks and all-round solidity, there were several times yesterday where the squad had to rely on him to sort out the mess from a loose pass or hack through, and he did it every time. But he's in a position where England have all sorts of options - Tuilagi, Slade, Joseph, Daly - and probably doesn't offer enough versatility to be a utility back.

Smith is behind Farrell, Ford and seemingly Cipriani, but a knock to any of them could bring him into contention. I also wonder, given the fly-half-as-reserve-scrum-half rumours, if he's been asked to train for that role. He's got the pass and kicking game for it. Mitchell, though, might have played himself into contention depending on how Youngs and Robson's fitness is going.

Dombrandt's the wildcard. England have got too many back rowers, and too many inexperienced back rowers, but he acquitted himself so well against a top notch BaaBaas back row, and he offers something different. It's fairytale stuff to think he could force his way into the squad, though.

All in all, I think it's more likely that what we're seeing is a new generation of players coming through who will challenge for places in the 6 Nations. I certainly wouldn't bet against Dombrandt - with a full preseason inside him and up against players who will be drained from the RWC - forcing his way onto the bench at least.

I would like Marchant to be in contention but you could also add Lozowski in the mix and Eddie has liked Francis in the past.

As you say Smith is 4th choice (at best) and unlikely to feature unless two serious injuries occur (Slade can cover for minor knocks). Mitchell looked good and has obviously learnt from Reinach, however still behind Youngs, Robson, Care, Spencer and Wiggy I would think.

Dombrandt was excellent but even if called up unlikely to make the final squad and much better for him to have a proper pre-season.

I'd like more people to adopt the rule by Tim Cocker of Eggchasers: if you are going to recommend someone be included in a squad, then you also need to say who they should replace.

We don't know exactly how many people will be in the training squad but Lancaster initially named 50 in 2015, which many players afterwards thought was too many, before cutting it down to 39 at the start of August, just before the warm-ups.

Ireland have named 44, which sound like a number to give you competition, without a lack of focus.

Well i think nathan Hughes position in the squad is very much under threat now from a number of players, especially post world cup. He's going to have to step up his game i think. I think Robshaw will be removed also...and probably Mark Wilson. With the other Curry playing class (sale player of the season i believe) , the young 6's (Dombrandt, Hill) etc looking very good, Willis, and his brother, i think the talent in the back row can take this england team on to another level.

Injury prone Manu and Joseph are going to have to stay fit as marchant is at their heals now. Im still not sure Slade is nailed on at 13 either if marchant continues his form.

Daly...well wheres he going to play for Saracens? Centre or back 3? Or all over as Lozowski etc seem to do.

Post WC i think Smith will take over Ciprianis spot.

45 seems to be the magic number for England's training squad. Including those who finished the season injured I reckon it may look something like:


Mako, Genge, Moon, Hepburn
George, Hartley, LCD, Singleton
Sinckler, Williams, Cole, Schoenart
Kruis, Itoje, Lawes, Launchbury, Ewels, Isiekwe
Curry (T), Underhill, Billy, Wilson, Hughes, Shields, Robshaw, Simmonds
Youngs, Robson, Care, Spencer
Farrell, Ford, Cipriani
Manu, Te'o, Slade, Joseph
May, Daly, Nowell, Cokanasiga, Watson, Brown, Ashton, Thorley

45 sounds about right, and I doubt it will be far off LT's squad, though the scrum half list will depend on Youngs and Robson's fitness - if there are doubts about the former, he may well take Wigglesworth as well, if the latter then it may open the door to Mitchell or Simpson.

Post RWC, I agree with GF. There will be a number of retirements (Hartley, Lawes, Robshaw, Brown, Cole, Cipriani, Youngs, Care, Ashton), a number of players whose positions will be challenged by players coming through (Wilson, Hughes, Shields, Joseph) and a number of players whose injuries might start to limit their game time to the extent that someone else takes the shirt (Mako, Billy, Manu).

Those are the slots that some of yesterday's players will be pushing to fill.

Ben Youngs is still 29, so doubt he will retire from international rugby just yet. Of course the coaches may choose to move on from him.

Young still has a few years in him, but his ability to blow hot and cold may count against him if there is genuine competiton.

Maybe it is an incorrect impression, but he doesn't seem to snipe around the ruck as much as he used to (bar the odd game, like when he terrorised Peter-Steph du Toit).

However, I will hold off anointing Mitchell as the second coming until he becomes starter at Northampton (might be a long wait with Reinach about).

Poorfour wrote:45 sounds about right, and I doubt it will be far off LT's squad, though the scrum half list will depend on Youngs and Robson's fitness - if there are doubts about the former, he may well take Wigglesworth as well, if the latter then it may open the door to Mitchell or Simpson.

Post RWC, I agree with GF. There will be a number of retirements (Hartley, Lawes, Robshaw, Brown, Cole, Cipriani, Youngs, Care, Ashton), a number of players whose positions will be challenged by players coming through (Wilson, Hughes, Shields, Joseph) and a number of players whose injuries might start to limit their game time to the extent that someone else takes the shirt (Mako, Billy, Manu).

Those are the slots that some of yesterday's players will be pushing to fill.

Lawes is only 30 and will be around a bit longer, could easily make the next RWC in 2023. The others I agree with, especially with the amount of young exciting competition about in just about every area.

Incidentally, in what I saw of Saturdays game, Nowell looks a very good choice at 15, must soak himself in oil before the start as no one that got hold of him could keep him in their grip, made ground every time he got the ball.

I am still waiting to be impressed by Shields in an England shirt - I suspect he is most at risk.
Hughes is a bit different - the last run of games for Wasps (since he has announced he's leaving really) I think he has started to get back to his form that pushed him into the EPS in the first place.

I am sure there will be some players - outside of the initial WC squad selection that might get to play in some of the warm up fixtures.
If only to protect some of the 'known starters'.

Guys like Marchant may get a look in if Slade/Joseph are carrying niggles.
LCD/Singleton or even Dunn may get a start in some games - especially if Hartley isn't ready (or even travels).
Ben Curry didn't have a bad game against the BaaBaa's - even though Dombrant got most of the plaudits for carrying.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

Poorfour wrote:45 sounds about right, and I doubt it will be far off LT's squad, though the scrum half list will depend on Youngs and Robson's fitness - if there are doubts about the former, he may well take Wigglesworth as well, if the latter then it may open the door to Mitchell or Simpson.

Post RWC, I agree with GF. There will be a number of retirements (Hartley, Lawes, Robshaw, Brown, Cole, Cipriani, Youngs, Care, Ashton), a number of players whose positions will be challenged by players coming through (Wilson, Hughes, Shields, Joseph) and a number of players whose injuries might start to limit their game time to the extent that someone else takes the shirt (Mako, Billy, Manu).

Those are the slots that some of yesterday's players will be pushing to fill.

Lawes is only 30 and will be around a bit longer, could easily make the next RWC in 2023. The others I agree with, especially with the amount of young exciting competition about in just about every area.

Incidentally, in what I saw of Saturdays game, Nowell looks a very good choice at 15, must soak himself in oil before the start as no one that got hold of him could keep him in their grip, made ground every time he got the ball.

I have thought for years that Nowell is the nearest like for like replacement for Brown, in playing style as well as presence

Probably going to find his time at 15 limited next season with Hogg on his way to Exeter.

Nowell does seem a close comparison to Brown with a bit more speed. Hogg seems pretty injury prone so hopefully he'll get some chances.

Agree with above that PF's list looks pretty comprehensive. Still cant see what Shields brings, and Dombrant could easily take his squad place imo.

yappysnap wrote:Nowell does seem a close comparison to Brown with a bit more speed. Hogg seems pretty injury prone so hopefully he'll get some chances.

Agree with above that PF's list looks pretty comprehensive. Still cant see what Shields brings, and Dombrant could easily take his squad place imo.

Whenever I wonder what it is that people see in Shields, I try to remind myself that many people don't see what I see in Robshaw. Which said, I've tried pretty hard to spot what Shields is doing that makes him so valuable, and I'm still not seeing it. He could help by getting a different haircut from Kruis, of course.

Nowell does have a lot in common with Brown, plus more pace. I don't think he's as good at defensive positioning or under the high ball, though, and he hasn't played fullback internationally. I don't think the RWC is the place to find out whether he can, given that our alternative is a player who can't. But long term, yep.

Whenever people criticise shields and then look to see what they see in Wilson I chuckle. Seriously give the games in the 6ns another watch.

I don't mean to detail the conversation but what has happened to this forum? I stopped checking in for a while because of work commitments, but now that I have more time I find that hardly anybody posts on it anymore. It used to be vibrant and enjoyable place to procrastinate...

Cumbrian wrote:I don't mean to detail the conversation but what has happened to this forum?  I stopped checking in for a while because of work commitments, but now that I have more time I find that hardly anybody posts on it anymore.  It used to be vibrant and enjoyable place to procrastinate...

The arguments get ever more circular, a few good posters leave, trolls provoke fights and then complain that people are picking on them. Pretty standard for any long running forum, sadly.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Whenever people criticise shields and then look to see what they see in Wilson I chuckle. Seriously give the games in the 6ns another watch.

Wilson had a fantastic 6N, did Shields even play? I honestly cant recall.

For whatever reason you don't like Wilson, his performances for England have eclipsed anything Shields has produced so far.

They really haven't. And yes shields played. Again some really need to go back and rewatch. I appreciate you're a Newcastle fan and some don't agree with shields walking into the side from off the plane from NZ but really give the games and performances a proper look.
That is he last plea on that from me though as they'll both be done soon.

As a neutral I think Wilson's performances surpassed anything Shields did, but in addition, Wilson is a natural leader, watch him on the field when things don't go right, he is the one that is trying to keep up the guys heads up and when things are going well, he is the one that tries keep everybody on an even keel, something Farrell seems unable to do.

I can't believe you've made me look this up you bugger (and some from my excellent memory)

V Ireland - Wilson 27 tackles and an excellent performance, Shields didn't play
V France - Wilson 20 tackles, another top performance, Shields didn't play
V Wales - Wilson 20 tackles, good display. Shields unused sub
V Italy -  Shields 20 tackles, good performance against a poor Italy. Brief cameo from Wilson.
V Scotland - Wilson not great, English pack poor. Shields on, not great either.

So in summary.....Wilson was excellent against Ireland and France. Shields played well against Italy.

Wilson had a much better 6N, not sure that's even a debate. I agree that neither will be round much longer than 1 to 2 years though.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:As a neutral I think Wilson's performances surpassed anything Shields did, but in addition, Wilson is a natural leader, watch him on the field when things don't go right, he is the one that is trying to keep up the guys heads up and when things are going well, he is the one that tries keep everybody on an even keel, something Farrell seems unable to do.

Totally agree.

Even if you don't rate Wilson at all, how can anyone suggest Shields has performed better for England. I'm completely lost on that one.

The leadership thing comes back for England every time we lose. We're obviously not that bad or we wouldn't have gone on the massive winning streak. We lose and its pointed that we lack leaders. Not sure myself . Latest thing pointed out is that we fail to adapt quickly or indeed at all until coaches get to half time. Not sure too many teams if any tend to switch tactics on the fly.

Shields did have a good game against Italy. But otherwise his 6Ns was, meh.

Likewise hes been nothing special for Wasps. He'll probably gel more next season with a pre season under his belt and a break. But he was average this year.

I was lucky enough to be at both games and was massively impressed by Dombrandt, Mitchell, Marchant and Smith, with Ben Curry only a little way behind. Tom Dunn also had a very good game. As stated above though I am struggling to see where any of them fit in to the current likely World Cup Squad. Eddie knows all about Smith having had him in a couple of sessions as a rookie, but Cipriani will be ahead of him. It's only if there are injuries that these guys *might* get a look in.

With regard to the Red Roses, Zoe Harrison really took charge of the game well. Amber Reed is likely to be Katy Daly-McLean's stand-in stand-off but she really put down a marker. I was less impressed by Jo Brown at 7 (didn't think she took her chance) and the replacement tighthead (didn't catch her name) did not look fit enough to play international rugby. Utterly immovable though. Hannah Botterman and Sarah Bern are terrifying when they get the ball in open play. It was all a bit one-sided but still good fun. Sorry to see Sarah Hunter go off with a head injury. And it's possible I might have a little crush on Abbie Scott...

lostinwales wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:I don't mean to detail the conversation but what has happened to this forum?  I stopped checking in for a while because of work commitments, but now that I have more time I find that hardly anybody posts on it anymore.  It used to be vibrant and enjoyable place to procrastinate...

The arguments get ever more circular, a few good posters leave, trolls provoke fights and then complain that people are picking on them. Pretty standard for any long running forum, sadly.

Its also the off season, its always moribund when all we have to talk about is how everyones a troll and who will be in the Lions in 2 years.
Liven it up...post something about Phil Vickery retiring as if you just broke the news.

Aye it’s the off-season. Guns is baiting the NZ fans (while fooling no one and proving that he secretly wished he was a Kiwi), the Welsh are fighting each other on the club threads and after a fantastic Sarries v Exeter final we’re all excited for the World Cup.

Sounds like a good performance by the young guns in the Baa Baas game. About to watch the highlights.

U20s sounded eventful.

Just watched the highlights of the England XV. Not sure there is any point of the Baa Baas any more when England can raise a XV with 6th, 7th and 8th choice players and beat them. Nige tried to keep it to a game but there’s no real point these days. Better to play the Barbarians against the likes of Fiji and Georgia (or club sides).

I thought it was really entertaining personally.

It was entertaining, but it’s not really rugby when players can be 5 metres offside, pass forwards and don’t have to ground the ball for a try

An All Black match?