Australia v Wales 3rd Test: Teams and Build-Up

First topic message reminder :

Saturday 23rd June, 2012
15:00 EST, 06:00 BMT
Allianz Stadium (SFS), Moore Park, Capacity: 45,500
Current forecast for Saturday: Fine, 7-15 deg. C
Sydney Radar (The ground is halfway between .Sydney and .Randwick on the diagonal)

Australia:
15 Kurtley Beale
14 Adam Ashley-Cooper
13 Rob Horne
12 Pat McCabe
11 Digby Ioane
10 Berrick Barnes
9 Will Genia
8 Wycliff Palu
7 David Pocock (capt.)
6 Scott Higginbotham
5 Nathan Sharpe
4 Sitaleki Timani
3 Sekope Kepu
2 Tatafu Polota Nau
1 Benn Robinson

Reserves:
16 Stephen Moore, 17 Ben Alexander, 18 Rob Simmons, 19 Dave Dennis, 20 Michael Hooper, 21 Nic White, 22 Anthony Fainga'a.

Wales:
15 Leigh Halfpenny
14 Alex Cuthbert
13 Jonathan Davies
12 Ashley Beck
11 George North
10 Rhys Priestland
9 Mike Phillips
8 Ryan Jones
7 Sam Warburton (capt.)
6 Dan Lydiate
5 Alun Wyn Jones
4 Bradley Davies
3 Adam Jones
2 Matthew Rees
1 Gethin Jenkins

Reserves:
16 Ken Owens, 17 Paul James, 18 Luke Charteris, 19 Justin Tipuric, 20 Rhys Webb, 21 James Hook, 22 Scott Williams.

No denying that we were beaten by the better team, Aus knew how to play it, look at the last 5mins, If we'd done that last wk, the series would have still been winnable, mind you through all this doom and gloom, we have lost by a total of 11pts in the last 3 games, against Aus in Aus, gone are the annual drubbings, and I really feel that when Aus come up to the Millennium, we'll take them. I remember a time not so long ago when we were the real whipping boys 40+ was expected every game against the big 3, now those days have gone!!

offload wrote:A bit silly all this nonsense about the ref. it's very rare that the better team loses because of poor officials. Certainly not three weeks in a row.

We were not good enough. Fact. Australia were smarter than us every time it mattered.

Offload

Spot On

Gaarghhh! That was not fun. You won't often find me supporting Wales, but that (and the series in general) was a really good opportunity to get one over the Aussies. And if Wales had won that we would be in the remarkably rare position that Aus had lost their last game against all of the home nations. Wales had everything they needed to win a game or even the series apart from a bit of composure. The only thing Wales can do now is take it on the chin and look forward to Aus heading over to the Millenium Stadium in the autumn. Lets put it this way if you were supporting your club in the Heineken Cup you'd be pretty happy with a 1 point loss away from home against a good side and confident ahead of the return fixture. Put it to them on the 1st December when I will once again be supporting the men in red.

gowales wrote:Knowsit we were taking Pocock out of the game by holding him down at the rucks and got away with it.

Please people stop blaming the reff, it's pathetic.

It really gives the rest of us fans a bad image with your consistant whining

Not all of you mate, Commiserations on your team's loss

The Aussies were the better team in all 3 tests. Wales were blown away in the first test, played terrible negative kick and rush in the 2nd and were deserved loosers as they created nothing and the less said about the standard of todays game the better. The Aussies are an evarge side and will get walloped by NZ and SA when the Tri Nations starts.

Wales desperately need a 9 that is going to get the ball out every time a chance is on. Phillips is too slow and undecisive.

Rhys Priestland had a good game mind. Halfpenny again did his Lions credentials no harm. North needs to remember that trying to run through players is not as effective as giong round them.

Phillips is far too ponderous. At one point he picked the ball up and stood for just long enough for the opposition to see exactly what was on before giving the ball. Rees is one of my favourite players but his lineout throwing gave Aus the advantage every time.

I think Wales were starting to warm up into this series but not canny enough by a long way. positives but mostly negatives...

i think not selecting Evnas was pretty dumb and there must be a reason...I think Rees was shocking, Adam solid, gethin is way past his best, AWJ and BD are likewise past their best and Sam was clearly unfit. Lydiate was quiet and we missed Faletau carrying. Philipps lacked intensity, RP seemed fragile, our centres were shown up and our back 3 was pretty good (North and 1/2 very good and Cuthbert full of entusiasm(

God we miss Roberts and Shane

ospreysboyo wrote:No denying that we were beaten by the better team, Aus knew how to play it, look at the last 5mins, If we'd done that last wk, the series would have still been winnable, mind you through all this doom and gloom, we have lost by a total of 11pts in the last 3 games, against Aus in Aus, gone are the annual drubbings, and I really feel that when Aus come up to the Millennium, we'll take them. I remember a time not so long ago when we were the real whipping boys 40+ was expected every game against the big 3, now those days have gone!!

Osprey,

I wouldn't fancy our chances to keep within one score of the Blacks at the moment, they would punish our in discipline far more that the Wallabies have done.

Full Credit wrote:

biltongbek wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:yeah I didn't understand that maul decision either ospreyboyo, didn't seem anything wrong with it to me.

Stupid by Charteris to mouth off at the ref though.

South Africa has been penalised for the same thing vs OZ numerous times, they refuse to make contact with the maul, then because the ball carrier is blocked by players in front, it is deemed obstruction.

The Crusaders have employed that tactic numerous times (and to great effect) this season too.

Full Credit, pretty ideal name. May I just say that you are one of the best and most gracious rugby supporters on here. Hope you enjoyed the series, have a .

Thanks, i'll go and cry now

Congratulations to Australia.

Disappointed for us.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Knackered your wrong, as soon as the maul is engaged by the opposition everyone in front of the ball carrier is onside, even if the opp all back away.

Jouberts argument was than the maul moved to a ruck, then another maul formed, which IMO it wasn't!

Initially yes but as soon as they all break off and re engage there all offside, been on the receiving end of that call before, but when we used the same tactic were got pinged for taking the man without the ball??

mowgli wrote:i think not selecting Evnas was pretty dumb and there must be a reason...I think Rees was shocking, Adam solid, gethin is way past his best, AWJ and BD are likewise past their best and Sam was clearly unfit. Lydiate was quiet and we missed Faletau carrying. Philipps lacked intensity, RP seemed fragile, our centres were shown up and our back 3 was pretty good (North and 1/2 very good and Cuthbert full of entusiasm(

God we miss Roberts and Shane

Is all that really true though?

Wales only lost by 1 point! Think about it!! Wales normally lose by 15-20 points at home so to lose the last 2 tests AWAY in oz by 1 and 2 points says Wales have improved massively in the past 2 to 3 years.

To play this way compared to not so long ago shows vast improvements through the team. We just lack certain skills and mental toughness to go all the way.

Just look at recent results against SH opposition and how far we have come. When you look at that you really can't expect Wales to win down under, grandslam or not.

courtesy of someone on twitter:

IRB Law 17.4 (f) When players of the team who are not in possession of the ball in the maul voluntarily leave the maul such that there are no players of that team left in the maul, the maul may continue and there are two offside lines. The offside line for the team in possession runs through the hindmost foot of the hindmost player in the maul and for the team not in possession it is a line that runs through the foremost foot of the foremost player of the team in possession at the maul.
Sanction: Penalty kick

Cheers Morgannwg

I know it must hurt now, but all will be forgotten when the boys run out for their next match.

We have missed Roberts this series him and Davies do seem to bring best out of each other.

No they're not, once engaged they are all engaged, if all opposition players back off the maul is still engaged, and is more than ok to carry on.

According to my rule book a maul is characterised as 2 attacking and 1 defencive player on their feet competing for the ball. That 1 defencive play still counts if he disengages himself.

Joubert was explaining to Jones that when the first few players went down he saw that as a ruck / end of maul. Then Wales wheeled a new maul that wasn't engaged at all.

IMO The Aus players dropped off the original maul, as the player at the back still had the ball there couldn't have been a ruck, hence same maul and as it was engaged is still engaged.

If I had the whistle it would have been play on, as it was the same maul, that was engaged and never stopped.

Very true about us missing Roberts. He completely dictates the pace we play the game. If he's running in to contact full pelt, then our forwards and backrow in particular have an easy ride but if he isn't it makes it much harder for them to get in the game, and if he isn't there then we lack directness.

I don't think we miss Shane so much, against the NH he is very useful but against the SH he usually struggled to get in to the game

Must say Priestland played very well , Phillips will find it hard to get back in the welsh squad next season.

gowales wrote:Knowsit we were taking Pocock out of the game by holding him down at the rucks and got away with it.

Please people stop blaming the reff, it's pathetic.

It really gives the rest of us fans a bad image with your consistant whining

It's something we learned last week, Pocock and the ref were discussing it, Pocock was called for holding one our guys down yet still had the penalty for us not rolling away. So it is obviously an accepted part of play (in these two matches).

No good blaming the ref, we have to rise above it, we ARE good enough, just need a bit more edge, back ourselves more with possession, a little composure.... oh and a decent hooker on the pitch for 80 mins... a little luck of the bounce wouldn't go amiss either.

See dreamers post above mate ^^^

Once again though it is a judgement call by Joubert, in which there are far too many for my liking. I am not a good ref, and thats partly due to my inexperience and my definition of certain laws being very different to other refs!

mowgli wrote:

wales606 wrote:

mowgli wrote:So...who wants Gatland to be lions coach now?

Gatland wasn't the Wales coach

QED

Mowgli,

I took that as a refernce to the fact that Howley will be in charge for the 6 Nations

gowales wrote:Knowsit we were taking Pocock out of the game by holding him down at the rucks and got away with it.

Please people stop blaming the reff, it's pathetic.

It really gives the rest of us fans a bad image with your consistant whining

I wasn't "blaming the ref". If anything I think we're once again the makers of our own downfall, I'm NOT one of these people who constantly jumps on the ref's back the second the final whistle goes.

Careful people, just because a couple of idiots seem to pin everything from losing games to global warming on the ref, it doesn't mean ref-criticism is the moral scourge of the earth. It isn't if it's based on objectivity and I still fail to see how you can excuse someone for seeing Phillips blatantly taken out when he wasn't touching the ball.

Don't be so narrow-minded as to tar us all with the same brush as the sensationalists, because we're not all like that. Why wouldn't you be allowed to question the ref when you legit believe he made a couple of bad calls?

Well done Oz and hard luck Wales. Just seems it wasnt to be for Wales. Once again the last 15 went against Wales. When ahead they didnt consolidate and lost some composure and once again Oz showed them how to close out by retaining the ball for the last two minutes of the match, where last week Wales gave the ball to Oz for another crack.

Good series with neither team at their best and although Oz should feel a little fortunate to get all 3, the loss of composure late in the last two matches contributed heavily to Wales demise. Wasnt the best losing Warburton but having said all that Wales as Grand slam winners and World cup semi finalists were poor this series where Oz were average. Not having a SH scalp in any of the Welsh successes puts them firmly in the back seat as they had every chance this series and didnt take them. I know there will be rumblings about the ref at key moments but so was the decision making, the regrouping after the second half try that let Oz straight back in.

Commiserations to the very staunch and faithful Welsh supporters on these boards who when a few more suns go down they'll realise a lot more work is needed to compete on a level basis and at the moment Oz is probably the 3rd of the SH sides given their players out at the moment.

Hook looked classy when he was on aswell,
Halfpenny was excellent as always JD2 looked dangerous and it was good to see North and Cuthbert looking for work aswell,

Ryan Jones and Tipuric played so well really made a contest of the break down.

Knowsit17 wrote:

gowales wrote:Knowsit we were taking Pocock out of the game by holding him down at the rucks and got away with it.

Please people stop blaming the reff, it's pathetic.

It really gives the rest of us fans a bad image with your consistant whining

I wasn't "blaming the ref". If anything I think we're once again the makers of our own downfall, I'm NOT one of these people who constantly jumps on the ref's back the second the final whistle goes.

Careful people, just because a couple of idiots seem to pin everything from losing games to global warming on the ref, it doesn't mean ref-criticism is the moral scourge of the earth. It isn't if it's based on objectivity and I still fail to see how you can excuse someone for seeing Phillips blatantly taken out when he wasn't touching the ball.

Don't be so narrow-minded as to tar us all with the same brush as the sensationalists, because we're not all like that. Why wouldn't you be allowed to question the ref when you legit believe he made a couple of bad calls?

I tried explaining this to posters last week and they just couldn't get it.

positive though for me is tha priestland was steady and put in some lovely kicks, i have been a supporter of his and it was good to see him come out and have a deceant game, his tackling has most certainly improved compared to the 6 nations

One small point which did have we shouting at the tele.

Do we not teach people (at any level) to follow up goal kicks these days????

It may have been a compliment to Halfpenny that they assumed the kick would of gone over but when it came back off the post there wasn't a red shirt is site?

Only Foxy chased it bedford, tis annoying when things like that happen.

Knowsit s*& happens in rugby. If refs called everything they see in the game then there wouldn't be much to watch.

You can discuss and question the referee etc..

But i'm going to forget about this game now and move on

I wasn't "blaming the ref". If anything I think we're once again the makers of our own downfall, I'm NOT one of these people who constantly jumps on the ref's back the second the final whistle goes.

Careful people, just because a couple of idiots seem to pin everything from losing games to global warming on the ref, it doesn't mean ref-criticism is the moral scourge of the earth. It isn't if it's based on objectivity and I still fail to see how you can excuse someone for seeing Phillips blatantly taken out when he wasn't touching the ball.

Don't be so narrow-minded as to tar us all with the same brush as the sensationalists, because we're not all like that. Why wouldn't you be allowed to question the ref when you legit believe he made a couple of bad calls?

+1

Basics again cost us. Poor line out, i've said all week that Owens should never have been dropped. When he came on he demonstrated his throwing ability. Not taking the restarts, crucial knock on's in try scoring areas. Ridiculous and and truck and trailor in the end summer it up.

Howley's selection has been poor. As someone else said, why Charteris and Evans were'nt given game time from the start is beyond me. Warbs hasn't been fit, and its shown yet he didn't have the faith in Tipuric to pick him. His subs came too late in the game to change anything, and the fact Hook and Webb weren't brought on earlier is disgraceful.

Wales have to play more with ball in hand and stop the constant kicking. We have the players to play this game and as that break where Iona touched down on his own try line, when the play breaks up and we run with it, we're a real threat.

Joubert didn't help today but you can't win a game when you make the basic errors Wales made today. AI's are now crucial, and we need to beat Oz and NZ simple as that.

i feel really sick . sick of bad handling bad lineouts and bad selection . i really believe we would have won one or two with gats in charge . we closed games in the six nations . i knew with ten minutes to go Australia would have 3 points in the bag .

I just want to say something to the Welsh supporters, not long ago you were proud of a close loss, now you are enraged and disappointed, that says a lot for where your team has progressed to.

You may disagree with me now, but in the greater scheme of things, I'd much rather be disappointed by my teams loss, than proud of a loss.

It shows progress

rugbydreamer wrote:courtesy of someone on twitter:

IRB Law 17.4 (f) When players of the team who are not in possession of the ball in the maul voluntarily leave the maul such that there are no players of that team left in the maul, the maul may continue and there are two offside lines. The offside line for the team in possession runs through the hindmost foot of the hindmost player in the maul and for the team not in possession it is a line that runs through the foremost foot of the foremost player of the team in possession at the maul.
Sanction: Penalty kick

So Technically a driving maul can be rendered useless if the other team employs Aus tactics, why has no-one caught onto this??? Im not saying that we would have won even if we did win the ball, Phillips would have stood around looking to pass to a forward who was standing totally still 5m from him, and the said forward would have then gently walked into the Aus line without aggressive support and an Aus player would turn him over/ get a pen, but thats beside the point!!!

rugbydreamer wrote:Only Foxy chased it bedford, tis annoying when things like that happen.

Dreamer,

I know times and styles have moved on since I played (well properly anyway) but as a youn winger I was always taught to follow it up and the back rowers would drop back and cover my wing for the clearance kick.

North and Cuthbert should have been tare a****g down on that kick and nailed whoever caught.

jimmyinthewell68 wrote:i feel really sick . sick of bad handling bad lineouts and bad selection . i really believe we would have won one or two with gats in charge . we closed games in the six nations . i knew with ten minutes to go Australia would have 3 points in the bag .

I think Gatland has been a big miss this tour tbh. We've clearly missed him being around and highlighted that Howley isn't quite up to the job just yet.

Feel like a kid who's had a pile of pants presents for Xmas. Took the dog out to chill out and calm down and it rains on me =(. RD cheer yourself up and Take a read of wrfc and gordy's posts. Saying we have an inferiority complex and they constantly troll welsh threads. Think they may be the smelly kids in school with cotton wool in their ears =D

thebluesmancometh wrote:See dreamers post above mate ^^^

Once again though it is a judgement call by Joubert, in which there are far too many for my liking. I am not a good ref, and thats partly due to my inexperience and my definition of certain laws being very different to other refs!

No fair enough, I'll remember that little gem if we get pinged for truck and trailer next season( as we're all old gits who like a slow driving maul to keep us warm in the winter)

Then the standard of refs we get get make Joubert look good

jimmyinthewell68 wrote:i feel really sick . sick of bad handling bad lineouts and bad selection . i really believe we would have won one or two with gats in charge . we closed games in the six nations . i knew with ten minutes to go Australia would have 3 points in the bag .

Gtaland should win a couple of Lions tests, Wales can FO back to being 2nd rate because without him thats where we are headed

ospreysboyo wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:courtesy of someone on twitter:

IRB Law 17.4 (f) When players of the team who are not in possession of the ball in the maul voluntarily leave the maul such that there are no players of that team left in the maul, the maul may continue and there are two offside lines. The offside line for the team in possession runs through the hindmost foot of the hindmost player in the maul and for the team not in possession it is a line that runs through the foremost foot of the foremost player of the team in possession at the maul.
Sanction: Penalty kick

So Technically a driving maul can be rendered useless if the other team employs Aus tactics, why has no-one caught onto this??? Im not saying that we would have won even if we did win the ball, Phillips would have stood around looking to pass to a forward who was standing totally still 5m from him, and the said forward would have then gently walked into the Aus line without aggressive support and an Aus player would turn him over/ get a pen, but thats beside the point!!!

No in this instance the ref got it wrong. He thought we'd gone from a maul to a ruck to a maul when we hadn't. There wasn't actually anything wrong with what Wales did.

biltongbek wrote:I just want to say something to the Welsh supporters, not long ago you were proud of a close loss, now you are enraged and disappointed, that says a lot for where your team has progressed to.

You may disagree with me now, but in the greater scheme of things, I'd much rather be disappointed by my teams loss, than proud of a loss.

It shows progress

Bilt,

We have many years with many different teams were we have been proud of narrow losses yet we are still having them and not learning from then.

That id true Biltong, Im absolutely livid, a few years back I would have been 'proud' we are actually getting big expectations up here now, rather than just worrying about beating Eng/France for a change!!! How would you feel about playing Wales nxt week, would you be extremely confident?? Its a hard lesson for these boys to learn, but today was literally a bounce of a ball between winning and losing. If Hook was aiming that ball into the corner flag, it wouldnt have gone out!!

biltongbek wrote:I just want to say something to the Welsh supporters, not long ago you were proud of a close loss, now you are enraged and disappointed, that says a lot for where your team has progressed to.

You may disagree with me now, but in the greater scheme of things, I'd much rather be disappointed by my teams loss, than proud of a loss.

It shows progress

You are right of course, but what is most annoying is that we do not learn as a side, make the same errors, fold under pressure and seem unable to take CONTROL of a game we are winning for any time....i mentioned during the game, best way to stop them scoring was for us not to score because i guarantee you stats will show we ship pints straight after scroing

gowales wrote:Knowsit s*& happens in rugby. If refs called everything they see in the game then there wouldn't be much to watch.

You can discuss and question the referee etc..

But i'm going to forget about this game now and move on

Sorry mate but you still haven't answered the question that I've posed twice in a row now. Third time: how do you excuse Joubert for letting Phillips get taken out without touching the ball? I don't think you can excuse it, which is why nobody's had a go yet.

I'm not saying Joubert lost us the game because he didn't. There's a difference between making claims of that nature and simply questioning some of the ref's decisions.

Now lets see some PASSION from the Irish and put the Blacks on their backs

ospreysboyo wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:courtesy of someone on twitter:

IRB Law 17.4 (f) When players of the team who are not in possession of the ball in the maul voluntarily leave the maul such that there are no players of that team left in the maul, the maul may continue and there are two offside lines. The offside line for the team in possession runs through the hindmost foot of the hindmost player in the maul and for the team not in possession it is a line that runs through the foremost foot of the foremost player of the team in possession at the maul.
Sanction: Penalty kick

So Technically a driving maul can be rendered useless if the other team employs Aus tactics, why has no-one caught onto this??? Im not saying that we would have won even if we did win the ball, Phillips would have stood around looking to pass to a forward who was standing totally still 5m from him, and the said forward would have then gently walked into the Aus line without aggressive support and an Aus player would turn him over/ get a pen, but thats beside the point!!!

The way to counter the penalty of that move is to realise it will be deemed obstruction, because the ball carrier is usually not in the position to see what happens in the front of the maul, the penalty comes as he hasn't detached.

If the ball carrier is awake to this possibility he will detatch from that maul, immediately when he becomes aware of the potential obstruction.

It is simple, if you do create such a maul , but detach immediately there is no penalty.

Knowsit17 wrote:

gowales wrote:Knowsit s*& happens in rugby. If refs called everything they see in the game then there wouldn't be much to watch.

You can discuss and question the referee etc..

But i'm going to forget about this game now and move on

Sorry mate but you still haven't answered the question that I've posed twice in a row now. Third time: how do you excuse Joubert for letting Phillips get taken out without touching the ball? I don't think you can excuse it, which is why nobody's had a go yet.

I'm not saying Joubert lost us the game because he didn't. There's a difference between making claims of that nature and simply questioning some of the ref's decisions.

I'm not going to answer that because i don't think it had any bearing on the result, as i said Poopie happens

ospreysboyo wrote:That id true Biltong, Im absolutely livid, a few years back I would have been 'proud' we are actually getting big expectations up here now, rather than just worrying about beating Eng/France for a change!!! How would you feel about playing Wales nxt week, would you be extremely confident?? Its a hard lesson for these boys to learn, but today was literally a bounce of a ball between winning and losing. If Hook was aiming that ball into the corner flag, it wouldnt have gone out!!

No mate, to be honest I won't be confident, I am not even confident about the English and French either