Ireland vs New Zealand, 3rd Test: Teams & Build Up

First topic message reminder :

Predict the score of the game. We all know how close the Irish came last week, can they deliver a result to stamp themselves into the history books. Could New Zealand kick it up a gear and get there hat trick. Discuss.

Well Alan your cofidence in the potential of NZ's youth was very misplaced just prior to the game so having a historical knowledge only doesnt necessarily mean you know NZ rugby. I backed these youngsters to perform and they did. In fact they all starred. You had no confidence in them at all, basing it on whats worked in the past. Rugby is not just about what has been, its also about what could be.

Prior to the series you predicted no newbies until the AI's?? Well thats been well and truly dismembered.

Sometimes you just have to accept that other people know a little about this game too.

A word on the ABs... they have shown they are the best in the World again, as if it was ever in doubt.

We threw down the gauntlet and they bashed us over the head with it.

McCaw is still the king of kings and Cane looks the heir apparant.

In terms of us, Kidney needs to take a lot of the blame.. the selection of Wallace and McFadden was idiotic but.......

The reality is our problems today started up front and not one of us would have picked a different pack. Our forwards were beasted today, the set piece struggled and we were destroyed at the breakdown.

The poor defence and unforced errors cost us a few scores but without the forward platform we had no chance today.

We do have quality players, last week showed that and this idea that they can't step up from provincial level is nonsence. What they can't do is do it consistantly and the players need to take a good look at themselves as do the IRFU.

Overall a disappointing tour and a mixed season for Irish rugby. Two provinces in the HEC final and the performances of the U-20s shouldn't be underestimated but the performances of the National side have not been anywhere near good enough.

Well its been emotional...... time for the lads to take a rest and come back stronger next season.

Cheers everyone for a cracking season on here

emack2 wrote:Moderators please delete my last post,tried I can`t. Sorry it was a joke,after all the rubbish I have been talking lately?Morgannwg i`ll match my knowledge of NZ Rugby with anyone here.It was my way of expressing relief that a very inexperinced NZ side was`nt .Defeated for the first time and frankly I would have preferred a Tight Match like last week. It would be a much better preparation for the 4Ns.Wales well done for running Australia very close sadly the NH/SH gap is still there.My attempt at levity was ill placed again SORRY!!!!!

There was some nonsense on Scotlands world cup group and then the recent JWC if I remember rightly. And no, I didn't click on to your joke.

Your NZ rugby knowledge is pretty sound though.

We have to respect Hansen's selection decisions, I agree Taylorman. He could've gone for the conservative approach. Alan is a fan of Thomson but he is too lightweight in the tackle. He provides speed but at 6 we need someone who can physically impose himself at the breakdown and the tackle. Not convinced about Messam but he is a step up in physicality. Romano also looked a bit more solid at 4.

So I was hesitant about the coaching set up but really Aussie McLean as defence coach seems to be doing a great job. Our attack went missing last week but we didn't have front foot ball. Time will tell in the 4N but certainly I am quite happy to put my hand up and say the coaching set up have made the right calls with players and have got the right mix of looking to the future and picking the experienced players who know how to close out games in tight situations like last week.

If Kidney goes then he goes, that has been debated long and hard on here but I'm not getting into it.

What has been said a lot is how good our players are. Well today, they were awful, made Manu basic errors and nothing could happen on the back of that. I think even if those were eradicated, it wouldn't have helped much as we played a damn good NZ side and thankfully for Ireland, Cruden went off early as it could have been much worse. Hope he isn't out with that injury, the Chiefs really could do with him on that form.

MBTGOG wrote:If Kidney goes then he goes, that has been debated long and hard on here but I'm not getting into it.

What has been said a lot is how good our players are. Well today, they were awful, made Manu basic errors and nothing could happen on the back of that. I think even if those were eradicated, it wouldn't have helped much as we played a damn good NZ side and thankfully for Ireland, Cruden went off early as it could have been much worse. Hope he isn't out with that injury, the Chiefs really could do with him on that form.

So? Throw the towel in and only play Italy and Scotland from here on in? That's all that will be offered to us if this level of performance continues. The All Blacks won't want to indulge in that kind of series again - there are other sides looking for opportunities to play them.

So what should Ireland do? You seem to suggest it's the players and that it's because we don't have them (good ones) not because they look clueless (playing to the tactics).

Fly,

I wasn't saying that at all, nice twist though.

Like I said, I'm not discussing the coaching situation, its tired and overdone. But what should not be dismissed is how poor the players were in that game. I understand it was the end of a very long season but the basic errors can only be put on them.

U shouldnt have got close wnd angered them

Scoring early was the ticket today. Could also see the ABs had changed their approach in the tackle and Smith was able to clear the ball much faster for the backs. Just one of them games. Congratulations to the youngsters, you did us proud

True Kia, there was talk of uncertainty about the coaching set up before the series, but overall I think they've kicked on from last year and we must get in behind them. For me, I like that foxy is in the mix, reckon there's a bit of Henry in that fella and i dont mean the upside down smile.

Read at 6, Cane at 7 and McCaw at 8? Cane looks like a school kid but he held his own.

Thanks the Irish, you passionate, humble, critical, talkative, and fair minded bunch

MBTGOG wrote:Fly,

I wasn't saying that at all, nice twist though.

Like I said, I'm not discussing the coaching situation, its tired and overdone. But what should not be dismissed is how poor the players were in that game. I understand it was the end of a very long season but the basic errors can only be put on them.

But unfortunately (and you know it because you're an intelligent man) unfortunately the only real debate in town in the coming weeks and months will be the tired and overdone coaching issue. You know that. Actually the point is that the topic is 'overdone' because he's still there.

The critics are building the dossier on him game by embarrassing game. They're not going to turn a blind eye to this one and once again pick on the players. But from other quarters, that's what happens. Look at the posts next week - and what will they be full of? Player talk - who let us down, who would drag us up - players. And that topic is not tired and overdone? "Basic errors" - that's not a tired and overdone argument for a slew of different players over the years finding out they can't handle a ball when playing with Ireland?

Blame players by all means for their longterm shortfalls and suggest new ones - but have balance and do the same for the coaching staff - blame them for their very real longterm shortfalls and don't suggest improvement - do like we do for players, suggest new ones.

Fly

I'm not denying there is a problem with the coaching ticket and that there probably needs to be a new one but it was the players who did so poorly today. But in a sense I don't want to blame them either as I know how much a struggle this match was always going to be.

I'd have McCaw at 6. Leave Read where he is.

Truly disappointing result. Well done New Zealand, ye were absolutely awesome

We had some terrible performances today, our backs were brushed aside more than I care to think. We were bouncing off of them and falling off of tackles for 80 mins.

It's difficult to watch, and at the end I was watching it through my fingers, but we must take it on the chin, I suppose what else can we do? Take a break and then re-evaluate the whole system.

Again, well done All Blacks

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Sin you probably think that was a good performance and that we are performing to the best of our abilities

And you probably think it was all Kidney's fault

Taylorman,Hansen himself admitted he would`nt have made so many changes except for injuries.I could`nt comment on the many young players because I don`t follow Super/ITM/Club Rugby.I follow it in the media buts that all Thomson
indeed I am a fan of,and maybe when the team beds in he can adapt to what is required.Messam went well today,and Captain Tackles was probably the best on the park BELEIVE!!Cruden and Carter/Reid likely to miss the Crusaders/Chiefs game in Hamilton throws the Super tournament wide open.A big fan of Romano watched a Couple of Crusaders matches last year Sharks London game and the Stormers Semi final.Expected he would get a start must admit Nonu`s omission a surprise.I wonder if the youngsters would have coped with the ferocity of the
Ireland of last week?.Ireland have managed just 2 Grand Slams in 65 or so years.BUT when they have the DEVIL in them they can give ANYONE the hurry up.Several recent Wins versus the Boks and the OZ RCW match not to mention England a Grand Slam pre RCW.Problem is they lack consistency several individuals had good tour,as to Kidney Credit for last week?or disappointment for this ?
I think ALL the NH fans genuinely expected to catch the SH cold it did`nt happen.Wonder if Wales had been first up they would have beaten OZ.
The idea of these tours was excellent are any more scheduled?Ireland have a lot of injured to come back.Come the AI`s they will i`m sure be formidable as always at home.Wales have run Australia really close today just one point,hope England can go one better.Incidentally Thomas the Tank Engine Waldron starting Cap today .Con gratulations a useful Super Back rower like his AllBlack Brother Scott.The Crusaders Mafia strikes again,Finally congratulations Scotland on a clean sweep!!!

The new all blacks were very good. The two new locks must end the chance of Ali Williams to get more caps? And Barrett and Cruden along with A Smith must end career of Piri Weepu too?

The highlight from an Ireland point of view was when Chris Henry knocked over Roman Poite.

Quite pleased with one thing thats come out of the tour; new second row combination. Hard up against it today but the two lads have in general acquitted themselves well on this tour, well enough to suggest DOC will be pushed out of the squad when Paul O'Connell is fit.

Biggest disappointment; no development of a working centre partnership. The only centre partnership that worked was the D'Arcy/BOD one we were all so desperate to see replaced and we well know its deficiencies. Kidney picked some good options going forward for this tour- Cave, Earls, McFadden. Then he called a guy two weeks into his off season to get on a long haul flight and perform miracles a few days later. One of his worst selection decisions. It was the single worst defensive performance I've seen from Paddy Wallace but I refuse to blame him for not being up to the pace- it's a long way from the beach to the breach. I blame the poorness of the preparation our centres had together.

It's also been a very poor tour from Brian O'Driscoll by his own high standards. Moving him to 12 didn't work initially, but needed to be persisted with to give our younger 13s a fair shot. I feel there's a bit of player power from the Captain in getting himself back into the 13 role. I do feel the long shadow of BOD is starting to hold us back from revamping the centres the way we so desperately need to. After a positive selection in the first test Kidney has dramatically wasted the opportunity to do that.

Emack, you've been beating the drum for Romano to, and he did well today. Will he fit into future squads, how many locks usually get selected? Ali's a goneburger, thanks Ali, you were a good AB in your prime

Just watched the end of the game in time warp. Having watched the fist half earlier I'm kinda glad I missed most of the second half.

Well done New Zealand. We were poor but made to look even worse by you guys today.

MBTGOG wrote:Fly

I'm not denying there is a problem with the coaching ticket and that there probably needs to be a new one but it was the players who did so poorly today. But in a sense I don't want to blame them either as I know how much a struggle this match was always going to be.

MBTGOG -

Although many of the players just did not seem like they wanted to play, Kidney is in charge of creating a team. He has had 4 years to do it, and he hasn't. How can anyone play well in a team game, when there is no team?

Notch, I was giving off about our conservatism the past few days but nobody wanted to hear it. Truth is, we need lower quality international games where we can really trust new faces.

I'll say it again, I've never though much of test series. It's not important to me in comparison to six nations and word cup.

What we need is competitive opportunities to test our debutants without embarrassing them test series against the top three every year does nt help us develop.

We would have benefitted so much more by three games against Argentina r France or some pacific islanders.

clivemcl wrote:Notch, I was giving off about our conservatism the past few days but nobody wanted to hear it. Truth is, we need lower quality international games where we can really trust new faces.

I'll say it again, I've never though much of test series. It's not important to me in comparison to six nations and word cup.

What we need is competitive opportunities to test our debutants without embarrassing them test series against the top three every year does nt help us develop.

We would have benefitted so much more by three games against Argentina r France or some pacific islanders.

I was happy to hear that fiji are comining over to play against an ireland 15...so im guessing that will be used to try out youngsters and tactics...

Its a disgraceful result for Irish rugby. Kidney has gone and done it again. Not only has he ruined his own reputation but he is damaging Irish rugby too with more and more people refusing to watch the team play.

Just like I don't blame the players for doing what they're told, I don't blame Kidney for knowing what he knows. Its the IRFU who need a good kick in the nuts to get them to wake up.

Yea but I think new things need a few games to build on. One off games don't do much IMO

Scotland won again. Lucky there's no more games left this season. Because they move to within a point of us in the rankings. We nearly became a third seed for the next RWC.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Scotland won again. Lucky there's no more games left this season. Because they move to within a point of us in the rankings. We nearly became a third seed for the next RWC.

the AIs before the ranking deadline

anotherworldofpain wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:Scotland won again. Lucky there's no more games left this season. Because they move to within a point of us in the rankings. We nearly became a third seed for the next RWC.

the AIs before the ranking deadline

Feckless Rogue wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:Scotland won again. Lucky there's no more games left this season. Because they move to within a point of us in the rankings. We nearly became a third seed for the next RWC.

the AIs before the ranking deadline

yep ..Scotland still have a chance of avoiding pot 3 and getting a draw like England Argentina Georgia, instead they could end up in pot 2 and pull New Zealand , Ireland ,Fiji..hmmmm

I can't believe that Scotland are within one point of us in the rankings..

Kidney's comments:

"We were just a bit too loose at the breakdown, they won all the collisions.

"It is quite a simple game, if you're losing the collisions you're going to lose the game."

Really Kidney? I'm glad you understand the game of rugby now. None of us knew that of course.

It is a simple game that you have failed to understand for 4 years now..

It doesn't stop there..

"THEY PLAYED WELL, but there were times when we let them play well, and once New Zealand get ahead of you like that they run away with it.

"The first 20 minutes were a bit loose with our intensity at the breakdown - we lost all the collisions and if you do that you're going to lose the game. It was our job to front up for it and we didn't manage to do that.

"We gained some experience for some of our younger guys and they will be stronger for that, and if they're not stronger they will fall by the wayside, but I'm not going to clutch at straws after what was a hammering."

Another great interview by kidney

Feckless Rogue wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:Scotland won again. Lucky there's no more games left this season. Because they move to within a point of us in the rankings. We nearly became a third seed for the next RWC.

the AIs before the ranking deadline

Im afraid of what the Springboks will do to us with the power they have theyll just go through so many of the Irish players and maybe break one or two in the process

I don't understand how you can compete at the breakdown or win collisions without playing at pace. The All Blacks, evidenced by their performance last week, thrive on quick ball and taking the ball at pace. Otherwise they are ineffective. The likes of Read, one of the best 8s in the world, is a fantastic carrier because of his speed and power. He hits the line like a bullet. Who does that in our pack/team? We take the ball totally static. If Read, McCaw, Whitelock, SBW, Smith, Gear, Savea, Dagg, Thomson, or any of their best carriers, took the ball as static as we do, they would go nowhere too.

Why do we insist on playing at such a pedestrian pace? I just don't understand it. Last week we proved we can bring other teams down to our level and make them suffer the same, but we STILL cannot break the line in any shape or form. We are too static, too slow, and too predictable. It is pathetic.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Another great interview by kidney

So Leinster4life & Rory, why don't you post what you think he should have said, please?

"I have made the decision to resign."

Seriously though, apart from pointing out the obvious about the game of rugby, about what we are still struggling with 4 years later, what on earth does me mean about the young players? What could they possibly learn from that? And he even has the audacity to say if they don't learn anything then they will 'fall by the wayside". Kidney, off you go.

Bad times for Ireland. Nothing positive at all. The got the abs angry and they feicked ya.. start again. New coach and young players

Young players won't change anything.

To recover from a defeat like that will require strength of character. If they can't do that, they are not in the right game.

Ever hear the phrase "when the going gets tough, the tough get going."
Another one would be "if it doesn't kill you, it will make you stronger."
Another "You learn more from defeat than victory."

The young players were on the bench or not playing though..

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I don't understand how you can compete at the breakdown or win collisions without playing at pace. The All Blacks, evidenced by their performance last week, thrive on quick ball and taking the ball at pace. Otherwise they are ineffective. The likes of Read, one of the best 8s in the world, is a fantastic carrier because of his speed and power. He hits the line like a bullet. Who does that in our pack/team? We take the ball totally static. If Read, McCaw, Whitelock, SBW, Smith, Gear, Savea, Dagg, Thomson, or any of their best carriers, took the ball as static as we do, they would go nowhere too.

Why do we insist on playing at such a pedestrian pace? I just don't understand it. Last week we proved we can bring other teams down to our level and make them suffer the same, but we STILL cannot break the line in any shape or form. We are too static, too slow, and too predictable. It is pathetic.

Did you watch the match last week Rory? Do you think that Kidney told them all to slow down and they did what he told them to do?

I did, and just because we played well doesn't mean we played the game at pace. We just killed the game for NZ. There was still no invention, no creativity. I don't get your point at all. We never did speed anything up..

Rory_Gallagher wrote:The young players were on the bench or not playing though..

O'Mahony & Murray started and they are fairly young and inexperienced and most the others are not that experienced and still quite young. I think those on the bench would feel the loss just as badly as those who started.

Yeah, but how is that going to toughen them up? The loss is hard for the fans too. That won't make a difference. My question is what exactly are they supposed to learn from that? There is nothing to take from that tour.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yeah, but how is that going to toughen them up? The loss is hard for the fans too. That won't make a difference. My question is what exactly are they supposed to learn from that? There is nothing to take from that tour.

Sin Rorys right it may toughen them up but what good is being tough going to do when players like BOD, ROG,D'Arcy etc are on the way out they arent bringing in replacements, they were getting hammered early on we all cold see changes where needed but they didnt come Paddy Wallace was a real weakness and yet played nearly an hour how many more minutes will he play at test level?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yeah, but how is that going to toughen them up? The loss is hard for the fans too. That won't make a difference. My question is what exactly are they supposed to learn from that? There is nothing to take from that tour.

That they never want to feel like that again. That they are going to have to work harder on their game. Also stop some who might be getting a bit cocky on foot of their provincial success. Keeping them humble would be a good thing.

Sin do you want to see anything changed?

Is there a top 8 coach in the world who, after a 60-0 defeat would not come out and say

"this was embarassing, unacceptable and we will have to take a serious look at this"

If you dont admit there was serious errors and at least hint at there being repercussions, then you have to be aware that it might in fact be you who will face the repercussions.

PLEASE, somebody, in the media or the IRFU, stand up and say it!

THIS WAS UNACCEPTABLE

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Sin do you want to see anything changed?

Tell me what the options are and I'll tell you if I want to see them happening.