Ireland vs New Zealand, 3rd Test: Teams & Build Up

First topic message reminder :

Predict the score of the game. We all know how close the Irish came last week, can they deliver a result to stamp themselves into the history books. Could New Zealand kick it up a gear and get there hat trick. Discuss.

Well that's that then.

I don't give a Flip what province you come from that will hurt. Has any team been turned over as many times in one game? At times we looked like we didn't know how to play rugby.

Cari wrote:Rodders - To be fair to the players, given how they must be feeling, they're still trying, but obviously it's a loss cause now. I don't think anyone can feel worse than they will after this.

No Cari they haven't been trying. They waved a white flag after 15 minutes. Fell off tackles, kicked ball away, threw silly offloads, line speed poor in defence, poor at the breakdown.

No excuses that just isn't good enough.

Well done the ABs .

I'm embarressed to be an Ireland supporter today. Sorry for the farce of a test series.

Who's the 1 person who picked Ireland to win by 15+ points?

Don't be shy

Well looking at that polite has not got a clue about the breakdown, NZ were allowed to get away with murder and looked suprised they were getting away with so much, almost embarrassed at times.

But NZ had so much power and strength all over the park and had support runners and looked for the gap.

Got to be favorites for the 4N

Well, that separated the men from the boys.

Rava wrote:Well that's that then.

I don't give a Flip what province you come from that will hurt. Has any team been turned over as many times in one game? At times we looked like we didn't know how to play rugby.

Don't worry fellas, bet you didn't make as many errors as Wales

That man - who hasn't had a good game today - but that man, O'Driscoll deserves better than that. Yes, I do hope Kidney does the honourable thing now. It's the only honourable thing left to a International period of his career that hasn't been as successful as he would have wished...but he can't keep wishing! It really is over Kidney.

"A lot more difficult tackling than running with the ball" -

I did, Josiah. Did it for the craic, I also picked Wales to win by 15 and England to win by 15. No thought gone in it.

That was easily the worst performance I've seen from an international side that I can remember. I've never seen such a meaningless performance. Kidney, in knowing all his other gameplans we feiced went into this one without one in order to fool the ABs. Well that's the only reasoning I can deduce from that

If Kidney cannot do the right thing and disappear while Irish rugby still has a chance to develop and get out of this deep rut he got us into then I don't want to imagine the next 6 nations results.

Disappointing end to the series. A non-event after Ireland made us work hard last week. No problem with how NZ played at the breakdown with their attitude. A lot of new faces and 6 changes and the continuity didn't suffer.

But really we learned nothing about the ABs. We needed another test where pressure was applied and NZ made to work hard for their points. I know the Irish boys are gutted and rightly so. You have far too good a side to put in those Jekyl and Hyde performances. I only hope Kidney gets the boot after this as he has proven incapable of getting consistency out of this side. Healy was my Irish player of the series. SOB quiet today but was impressive in the first two matches. D'Arcy offers little on attack but he was missed on defence tonight. Centre is a real problem for Ireland. There seems to be few options for taking over D'Arcy and BOD.

Well I went away and starting to cut the vegetables and brown the beef (not a metaphor for anything else) to make an steak and ale pie for dinner tonight with my in-laws coming round. Turned on the BBC website to check the score. If I hadn't got up and watched 65 minutes or so I would have thought 'Did we have a red card? No? Then we must have had yellow cards for long periods of time? No?' I have experienced many things as an Irish fan, disappointment, despair, hope, shattered dreams with the odd bit of victory and satisfaction. For the first time I feel ashamed to be an Irish fan. That is just really sad.

Out of this world stuff from NZ. The SH wrap it up again just as we hear "closing the gap...." I feel for you guys, and would be extremely embarrassed for the person who would take pleasure in todays result, I'm saying that before IDs with a history of 2 posts come on to say something about it. The Wales results were harder to take. Aus deservedly won the series, then just as you get the chance to salvage some pride Joubert seems to purposely go out of his way to prevent it.

A page has disappeared in here?

Anyways, congratulations NZ

The NZ fans in here have been fantastic. Very sorry for the farce of a test series.

Good luck all

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:For the first time I feel ashamed to be an Irish fan. That is just really sad.

+ 1. Devestated by the lack of effort tonight. Awful.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Kiss was doing fine until Gaffney went,the man can do one job well or two jobs poorly and it's shocking that we haven't got an attack coach to allow Kiss do what he does best.

Kiss was doing ok. This team hasn't been fine since the pin Tinkywinky win over Wales for the GrandSlam (and that was too close to the bone for comfort). Coaching should be producing consistency. This team hasn't got anything in continuity, and bits and pieces are just working and not working from the various disciplins (scrum, lineouts, restarts etc.) It's a rugby-by-numbers division of labour and no overall design.

rodders wrote:

KiaRose wrote:I hope Kidney does the honourable thing and resigns after this

I hope 3/4s of the team do the honourable thing and retire. There's no point coming out here and fronting up for 75 minutes over 3 tests.

I want Kidney to go too but a lot of players have been found wanting out here, for attitude and quality.

I agree Rodders. I thought after the WC last year that a number of the players would go, but that they decided to stay for this tour. Reading the interview with BOD in the Irish Times during the week, sounds likme he wants another crack at the Lions nxt year. He would like to be part of a winning Lions squad.

But there are a number of players who have to put their hands up and tke voluntary redundancy - in my view anyone over 30 - BOD; ROG; DOC; POC (yes I know he wasn't there, but still ...); Reddan (not quite 30, but not the future); Paddy W; D'Arcy.

Let's start building a new team, a new coaching team and base the intertional team around the players who will be around for the next five years at least.

We have to have a functioning team for the AIs, because at ranked 8th in the world we are in dire danger of losing that position and therefore going into the third pot for the RWC draw in December.

You Irish boys have been class as well.

Hope you get a coach that can bring more consistency to this side.

Yes...congratulations to New Zealand for being a.........well, I don't know what that side is.......... I'm only human and they don't seem to be. Let the God's write up the after-dinner speech on that one.

A punishing game to watch but truly the best side on the planet.

I have to say that, as much as I agree with the comments about Kidney, the players surely deserve a large portion of the blame for that kind of performance. 60-0?!!?? That's worse than the dark days of the 1990s.

And unfortunately BOD was probably the most emblematic for the whole team. In the 1st test Ireland showed exactly how NOT to go out and play the ABs in their backyard: cavalier stuff, throwing it around and trying to run it wide in their first and second phases. Then last week they did it exactly right. Hit hard up front slow every phase. Keep the ball longer and scramble with intensity off the fringes. Then when the ABs start to get nervous you lay into and run the ball a bit.

So, given these two options, what do Ireland do from the first minute of the 3rd test? BOD starts flinging from the ground, chucking it behind is back, skip passes... Ireland swing the ball left, the right, then left... they throw it 20-25 metres from their puffed out pack in every phase and then predictably get turned over.

If that's not a sign of a team with little or no grasp over their gameplan I dunno what is.

Kia - Can I just say that I expressed an opinion post world cup on the Ireland team. And I said that the team could do with a clearout of players seeing as a number of them had little or nothing to offer. I was dismissed as a buffoon.

If the focus of the golden generation boys is on the lions tour then that surely is even more reason to get shot of them and get some players in who are focussed on building an Irish national side.

Given the success of irish players at club level over the last few years its unforgiveable that they can put out a side this meek. Its reminiscent of some of the england teams of 5 years or so ago.

This isnt just about one result, its about a gradual decline up to and after the world cup and a number of heavy losses culminating in a complete bottom spanking.

SecretFly wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
Kiss was doing fine until Gaffney went,the man can do one job well or two jobs poorly and it's shocking that we haven't got an attack coach to allow Kiss do what he does best.

Kiss was doing ok. This team hasn't been fine since the pin Tinkywinky win over Wales for the GrandSlam (and that was too close to the bone for comfort). Coaching should be producing consistency. This team hasn't got anything in continuity, and bits and pieces are just working and not working from the various disciplins (scrum, lineouts, restarts etc.) It's a rugby-by-numbers division of labour and no overall design.

I think the defense was good up until Kiss took on the extra workload but our attack has been clueless for years.

French football federation will be taking tips on how to lose from the Irish in preparation tonite.. the scoreline was deceiving boys..

Kiwireddevil wrote:
Sorry folks, I hit the wrong button while removing a couple of posts, have just restored all the ones I accidentally deleted.

Could you delete todays results as well, then we can try again!!!

Morgannwg wrote:Kia - Can I just say that I expressed an opinion post world cup on the Ireland team. And I said that the team could do with a clearout of players seeing as a number of them had little or nothing to offer. I was dismissed as a buffoon.

I don't reacall that. I tihnk most would have agreed it was time to move on from the likes of D'Arcy, ROG, DOC and Wallace. POC still has something to offer and BOD might. We need to get rid of a fair few guys but a lot of the team is relatively young.

Morgannwg wrote:Kia - Can I just say that I expressed an opinion post world cup on the Ireland team. And I said that the team could do with a clearout of players seeing as a number of them had little or nothing to offer. I was dismissed as a buffoon.

You don't have clearouts for the sake of it. You pick your best players and have a tactical plan to beat your opposition. Kidney hasn't done that in a long time in the second row, backrow, scrum half, centres and wings. If you are good enough you are old enough (or young enough). This age thing is nonsensical.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:This isnt just about one result, its about a gradual decline up to and after the world cup and a number of heavy losses culminating in a complete bottom spanking.

It is, sadly.

I wonder what will happen now.

That is just humiliating. The sight of Hansen with his head in one hand, slouched over in his chair, looking like he was bored, just summed up this entire year of irish rugby for me.

I suppose Kidney can't take all the blame here, and I am one of his biggest critics. Yes, we have absolutely no game plan, nothing to offer in attack, and he makes the most bizarre decisions he could possibly make (Wallace? He isn't even match fit) but some of those players out there don't deserve to wear the Ireland shirt. They have let the team down, and just given up. They look dejected, and they look tired. The guys looked unfit. A lack of intensity. A lack of physicality. We just had absolutely no pace in this game. Nothing to offer in attack, and weak in defence. It was an utter shambles.

I do think Kidney has damaged this team a lot. He does have to take a tremendous amount of the blame for this dejected team generally. And for the complete lack of organisation. We had another one off performance last week (which we didn't even win) and we could have capitalised on that. We didn't, so it means nothing. The likes of rodders can feel perfectly justified being so angry with last week, because we knew deep down that was our opportunity missed and it was a one off performance.

Yeah I think the AB's showed they were genuinely concerned with last weeks result and made sure they left no stone unturned this week.

Hard luck guys, just caught us on one of those days and Ireland truly looked stuffed after such a long year.

For our side I was rapt for the newer, younger guys who all stepped up.

Cruden, Cane, Barrett, Romano and the returning guys Gear- fantastic bump try on the left, Messam and McCaw looked like he's been an 8 for years was everywhere into everything.

Nothing more to say after that really. One more chance left for England to knock SA off will look forward to that match as well.

Cheers Rodders and welcome back Billy. Hope youre feeling better and are resting up. I see we wont be meeting Ireland in the AI's as I thought that would be a good one with this series behind Ireland.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Given the success of irish players at club level over the last few years its unforgiveable that they can put out a side this meek. Its reminiscent of some of the england teams of 5 years or so ago.

It's harsh but I'd have to agree with this. There's something not right with the Irish mindset still... We still thrive on the "no-hoper" games... and always still carry dark demons in the back of our heads that kind of expects and dreads bad days like this where teams like the ABs or France will reveal us as true no-hopers.

Kia mentioned it earlier in this thread. When we let an early try in we seem to lose all hope and act as if we have to start throwing the ball around even more.

Surely no Leinster team or Munster team or Ulster team would ever go down 60-0 to any team in such a disjointed uninspiring manner?

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Kia - Can I just say that I expressed an opinion post world cup on the Ireland team. And I said that the team could do with a clearout of players seeing as a number of them had little or nothing to offer. I was dismissed as a buffoon.

You don't have clearouts for the sake of it. You pick your best players and have a tactical plan to beat your opposition. Kidney hasn't done that in a long time in the second row, backrow, scrum half, centres and wings. If you are good enough you are old enough (or young enough). This age is nonsensical.

I would generally agree with that Hookisms, but I have been watching Ireland since the 1960s. Back in those days, it was said that it was harder to GET OFF the Irish team than to get on to it. We kept picking players who were past their best, because they, well, they were the Irish equivalent of English "good chaps". We held back our younger players and frequently a generation was lost to test rugby.

We seem to have gone back into the same mindset - keep picking the same guys because ... BOD may have been a superb player. He has rightly held his place for many years, but there have been many times over the past five years or so when it has looked as if he has lost that edge. to be fair to him he has then re-invented himslef. But we have not developed a replacement for him and that was criminal negligence by the management. (There are other players I cold have named, just using BOD as an example)

Well clearing out older players would make more sense if the younger players had turned up.

Apart from Healy, SOB, Best and Ryan who has stepped up to the plate?

McFadden was badly exposed out here in defence. Earls is massively overrated in my opinion. Murray had 1 good game vs 2 poor ones. Ditto Sexton. Kearney was a shadow of the player who won HEC player of the season.

Zebo and Cave didn't really get a chance. O'Mahoney still has a fair bit to go at this level. Tuohy did ok but nothing to strike fear into other sides.

The coaching set up is shambolic but I feel let down by the players, apart from last week they just haven't shown up.

Honestly I don't think we are capable of performing 3 weeks in a row, we saw it in the 6N too. Against England we had nothing left.

Thomond wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Kia - Can I just say that I expressed an opinion post world cup on the Ireland team. And I said that the team could do with a clearout of players seeing as a number of them had little or nothing to offer. I was dismissed as a buffoon.

I don't reacall that. I tihnk most would have agreed it was time to move on from the likes of D'Arcy, ROG, DOC and Wallace. POC still has something to offer and BOD might. We need to get rid of a fair few guys but a lot of the team is relatively young.

Those were players on my list, plus one or two others, I can't remember. And the only other available players are the youthful ones, a few of them look good.

I think BOD might have finally had his day after saying it for years... POC still has a bit to offer, but probably not for four more years. The next ones you should look to as captains are O'Mahony, Ferris and Sexton. All have great leadership qualities in my opinion. Farm some Leinster players out to other Provinces, do whatever it takes, but just expose the guys coming through to top rugby now. Contracting the has-beens is making the situation worse.

Honestly though we can sack the entire team and play an entirely new one, it won't make any difference. They might start off well, catch a few teams off guard with some individual brilliance, but eventually they will end up just as dejected as the current team. Kidney MUST go. There is ZERO organisation in the team, no tactics, no invention or strategy. If we had players of the same calibre as NZ, it wouldn't be any different. Rugby is a team game, and if you aren't working as a team, you will go nowhere. Kidney doesn't know how to work a team, even after 4 years. Enough is enough.

Oh dear another flukey AllBlack win,what happened to the goal kicking,another moral victory.For Ireland the Boks are licking there lips oin anticipation NOT!!!

Wouldn't it be great if we saw an Irish team in the AIs with Madigan or Hanrahan in the No 10 shirt and the other on the bench? What to do with Sexton - IC? I think Madigan and JJ will overtake him. Start there. Murray has had some good, some bad games, but he is sfater all in his first year as an interntional player. The lad is learning and will become better. His first start for his province was only 18 months ago.

Do a realistic assessment of all the players we ahve seen in the past year. It has been a long season, but we have had the advantage that we have played a lot of competitive (rather than "friendly") games with the RWC and the 6Ns. It is in those real competitive games that a player shows what he is made of, whether or not he is really up to internitonal standard. Some have been shown to be wanting. They may become very good provincial players, but not international standard. Well cut them out now. Don't pussyfoot around it.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Honestly though we can sack the entire team and play an entirely new one, it won't make any difference. They might start off well, catch a few teams off guard with some individual brilliance, but eventually they will end up just as dejected as the current team. Kidney MUST go. There is ZERO organisation in the team, no tactics, no invention or strategy. If we had players of the same calibre as NZ, it wouldn't be any different. Rugby is a team game, and if you aren't working as a team, you will go nowhere. Kidney doesn't know how to work a team, even after 4 years. Enough is enough.

You on the bong Alan? At least the match would've felt a little more enthralling...

emack2 wrote:Oh dear another flukey AllBlack win,what happened to the goal kicking,another moral victory.For Ireland the Boks are licking there lips oin anticipation NOT!!!

You've been talking rubbish for a couple weeks now. Any reason for this?

emack2 wrote:Oh dear another flukey AllBlack win,what happened to the goal kicking,another moral victory.For Ireland the Boks are licking there lips oin anticipation NOT!!!

I don't know if you have been drinking or something after your fantastic win, but nobody has ever claimed NZ were "flukey" against us. Where did that even come from? Was that comment necessary? Show some grace please.

Has someone hacked his account. Looks more something HERSH would write.

After signing on for the first time in months to vent some frustration... I'm gonna finish with some positives about this tour...

1) Finest performance I've ever seen by an Irish side against the ABs. And given that we initially all dreaded 3 walk-over performances, that's something positive.

2) A good number of players have consistently risen to the occasion despite the overall mess: Ryan, Healy, O'Mahony, SOB, Best, Kearney, etc.

3) Ireland have shown that, if they can implement a certain intensive gameplan, they can take on the best of the best... and that's something that should give them real heart for next season.

Now I'm off to Portlaoise to see the Dubs take on another world class side... this time in Amber and Black. And cheers to all the hardcore Irish who suffered through that torture to the end...

Omg wtf

Moderators please delete my last post,tried I can`t. Sorry it was a joke,after all the rubbish I have been talking lately?Morgannwg i`ll match my knowledge of NZ Rugby with anyone here.It was my way of expressing relief that a very inexperinced NZ side was`nt .Defeated for the first time and frankly I would have preferred a Tight Match like last week. It would be a much better preparation for the 4Ns.Wales well done for running Australia very close sadly the NH/SH gap is still there.My attempt at levity was ill placed again SORRY!!!!!

KiaRose wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Morgannwg wrote:Kia - Can I just say that I expressed an opinion post world cup on the Ireland team. And I said that the team could do with a clearout of players seeing as a number of them had little or nothing to offer. I was dismissed as a buffoon.

You don't have clearouts for the sake of it. You pick your best players and have a tactical plan to beat your opposition. Kidney hasn't done that in a long time in the second row, backrow, scrum half, centres and wings. If you are good enough you are old enough (or young enough). This age is nonsensical.

I would generally agree with that Hookisms, but I have been watching Ireland since the 1960s. Back in those days, it was said that it was harder to GET OFF the Irish team than to get on to it. We kept picking players who were past their best, because they, well, they were the Irish equivalent of English "good chaps". We held back our younger players and frequently a generation was lost to test rugby.

The selection process back then was down to who you were/club you played for. That policy only changed about 10 years or so ago (and Gatland was the one that brought about that change).

KiaRose wrote:Wouldn't it be great if we saw an Irish team in the AIs with Madigan or Hanrahan in the No 10 shirt and the other on the bench? What to do with Sexton - IC? I think Madigan and JJ will overtake him. Start there. Murray has had some good, some bad games, but he is sfater all in his first year as an interntional player. The lad is learning and will become better. His first start for his province was only 18 months ago.

Do a realistic assessment of all the players we ahve seen in the past year. It has been a long season, but we have had the advantage that we have played a lot of competitive (rather than "friendly") games with the RWC and the 6Ns. It is in those real competitive games that a player shows what he is made of, whether or not he is really up to internitonal standard. Some have been shown to be wanting. They may become very good provincial players, but not international standard. Well cut them out now. Don't pussyfoot around it.

So, if Ireland lose the AIs with Madigan or Hanrahan, you'd bin them?

The policy has stagnated somewhat.

Sin you probably think that was a good performance and that we are performing to the best of our abilities