Criticism of the referee.

by Rory_Gallagher Sat Jun 23, 2012 6:13 pm

First topic message reminder :

I just want to point out that I think some of the comments made about referees (from all NH sides on here) have been shocking to say the least. The claims that referees are "spoiling" or "killing" the game, the claims that they show bias towards one team over the other, or that they have a vendetta against a certain team, are absolutely ludicrous. I am getting pretty sick and tired of it too.

Yes, referees do make mistakes, some more than others, but they are human and they are there to do a job. They will not be perfect in their job. They will make plenty of mistakes, and plenty of the mistakes they make, you will not like. That is fine, and sometimes it is okay to question a refereeing decision. Referees will obviously evaluate their own performances, and try to have a better understanding of the laws and try to show more consistency. However, the claims that they have "won the game" or "lost the game" for a team, is simply ridiculous. As are claims that they show any sort of bias.

I hope that some people might read this and realise that refereeing isn't such an easy job. If you expect perfection, go watch a different sport. The laws themselves are not perfect. There are a few things I would like to change, particularly at the breakdown, and some players are VERY good at pushing the laws to the limit and getting away with it. However, the referee does not intentionally let them away with it. So please, stop accusing referees of bias, or winning/losing games for teams. They too are professionals just like the players. They want to do the best they can at their job. Give them a chance.

by nathan Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:28 pm

I'm done with this thread, i'm guessing your in a bad mood about the result.

by Morgannwg Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:28 pm

I'm quite surprised Rory would write this, he usually has a few things to say about the ref when Ireland or the provinces are on the recieving end Laugh

.

Not rolling away, in from the side, hands in the ruck and high tackles (and imaginary offside lines if you want) are against the rules. Fact. I only blame the ref (Joubert) for todays loss. Not the series, we lost it to a class team. In my mind I can't see how anyone can say CJ's one sided performance didn't influence the result. Absolutely disgraceful.

by Rory_Gallagher Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:29 pm

mowgli wrote:Now you are polarising the debate into whether refs are corrupt and biased which is of course what i did not write (heaven forbid you didn't read what i wrote)

so you think all human refs are incorruptable?

google corrupt referees you won't find diddly

I think all referees will make mistakes (like I said in my opening post..) but they do not intentionally do so. They are open to criticism, but I don't think it is fair when they are accused of favouring a team over another, or showing bias. We aren't talking about amateur rugby here, these are the top level referees in the world. They will be evaluated for their performances, and they individually will work on improving their ability to ref a game. Criticism of a referee is fair game if it is fair, but lately on these forums it has been a case of blaming the referee for a loss, or criticism for showing bias towards one team over the other.

by thebluesmancometh Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:33 pm

New page, new poster to argue with so you start all over again Rory?

I will not post on this thread again.

by Rory_Gallagher Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:33 pm

Morgannwg wrote:I'm quite surprised Rory would write this, he usually has a few things to say about the ref when Ireland or the provinces are on the recieving end .

Not rolling away, in from the side, hands in the ruck and high tackles (and imaginary offside lines if you want) are against the rules. Fact. I only blame the ref (Joubert) for todays loss. Not the series, we lost it to a class team. In my mind I can't see how anyone can say CJ's one sided performance didn't influence the result. Absolutely disgraceful.

When? Feel free to find an example of where I have done that, but that is a blatant lie. Either that or you are mixing me up with someone else. I remember debating with you about the "we was robbed" thing, but I didn't mention the referee. Just your attitude.

Yep, they are against the rules. But why would it affect just one team? Wales often do the exact same. Hands in the ruck, not rolling away etc. They get away with it sometimes too. People only see what they want to see when they are watching the side they want to win play. Both teams are often guilty of it.

by mowgli Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:33 pm

er no apparently it is not about debating criticism of the ref...best change the title rory thumbsup

have a look on youtube: italy v abs robbery of a penalty

Corruption comes in many forms and i have no doubt whatsoever that it has occurred in rugby......bloodgate for example seems to me to be a fairly good example

by Rory_Gallagher Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:35 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:New page, new poster to argue with so you start all over again Rory?

I will not post on this thread again.

Flip me, am I not allowed to stand my ground or something? Not long ago you were saying I was avoiding the debate, now you are complaining about the fact I am having one?

by mowgli Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:36 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Morgannwg wrote:I'm quite surprised Rory would write this, he usually has a few things to say about the ref when Ireland or the provinces are on the recieving end .

Not rolling away, in from the side, hands in the ruck and high tackles (and imaginary offside lines if you want) are against the rules. Fact. I only blame the ref (Joubert) for todays loss. Not the series, we lost it to a class team. In my mind I can't see how anyone can say CJ's one sided performance didn't influence the result. Absolutely disgraceful.

When? Feel free to find an example of where I have done that, but that is a blatant lie. Either that or you are mixing me up with someone else. I remember debating with you about the "we was robbed" thing, but I didn't mention the referee. Just your attitude.

Yep, they are against the rules. But why would it affect just one team? Wales often do the exact same. Hands in the ruck, not rolling away etc. They get away with it sometimes too. People only see what they want to see when they are watching the side they want to win play. Both teams are often guilty of it.

Blimey rory chill out, you have killed your own thread fella. People on forums don't lie we are all angels kiss

people have opinions and perhaps people have more experience of life than you. lets have a beer and relax eh

by Rory_Gallagher Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:37 pm

mowgli wrote:er no apparently it is not about debating criticism of the ref...best change the title rory

have a look on youtube: italy v abs robbery of a penalty

Corruption comes in many forms and i have no doubt whatsoever that it has occurred in rugby......bloodgate for example seems to me to be a fairly good example

What has blood gate got to do with the referee? Also, I didn't realise the title said "not about debating criticism of the ref"..

by Rory_Gallagher Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:39 pm

mowgli wrote:
Blimey rory chill out, you have killed your own thread fella. People on forums don't lie we are all angels people have opinions and perhaps people have more experience of life than you. lets have a beer and relax eh

Maybe I should use more smileys or something. I am perfectly chilled, sometimes it is hard to pick up tone on a forum. Although what Morgan posted was false, so I was just pointing that out.

by John Cregan Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:40 pm

Rory,
Do you believe the last 5 or 10 minoues of the RWC Final was refereed fairly ?

I don't think it's "far out" to suggest the Referee saw clear penalties to France and chose not to award them?? I believe that to be the case as did a large percentage of the people watching it??

That's not corruption, that was probably fear of giving the penalty and denying the "destiny" for McCaw and the All Blacks.....................so am i saying the Ref was biased in that game, YES i believe he was..................it's my opinion...............i don't understand all the vitriol directed toward people with opinions like mine?

by mowgli Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:42 pm

Yeah, who'd be the ref that denied the ABs thier destiny...he could have shared a taxi to the airport with Henry though

by Rory_Gallagher Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:43 pm

I honestly can't remember the last 10 minutes of the RWC. Sorry.

by Shifty Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:45 pm

The game is fast and so tecnical and teams now deliberatily try and cheat the referee when they are inferior in certain aspects of their game to the opposition.

There is also little unision between referees from different countries, the North and South referees have totally different ideas on how the game should be played, which does not help rugby at all.

Something does need to be done by the IRB though because referees are basically deciding tight games themselves not the players on the pitch and that is wrong.

by Morgannwg Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:45 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Morgannwg wrote:I'm quite surprised Rory would write this, he usually has a few things to say about the ref when Ireland or the provinces are on the recieving end .

Not rolling away, in from the side, hands in the ruck and high tackles (and imaginary offside lines if you want) are against the rules. Fact. I only blame the ref (Joubert) for todays loss. Not the series, we lost it to a class team. In my mind I can't see how anyone can say CJ's one sided performance didn't influence the result. Absolutely disgraceful.

When? Feel free to find an example of where I have done that, but that is a blatant lie. Either that or you are mixing me up with someone else. I remember debating with you about the "we was robbed" thing, but I didn't mention the referee. Just your attitude.

Yep, they are against the rules. But why would it affect just one team? Wales often do the exact same. Hands in the ruck, not rolling away etc. They get away with it sometimes too. People only see what they want to see when they are watching the side they want to win play. Both teams are often guilty of it.

Oh come on Rory it's a bit silly to think I can go through thousands of posts looking for the examples, a couple of other posters may agree with me though. That should be enough. It's an Irish thing; believing they are perfect and that only the Welsh comment on the referee out of all the nations in the rugby world.

I don't think you watched the final Aus test. Joubert did everything he could to stop us from winning, I said it after 30 minutes. I can't imagine numerous posters and pundits giving the same comment for no particular reason. And the "yeah the ref did this but Wales did that.." is a boring retort now btw (you aren't the only one to use it) Broken Record

.

by Sin é Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:46 pm

Jennifer1984 wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:I just want to point out that I think some of the comments made about referees (from all NH sides on here) have been shocking to say the least. The claims that referees are "spoiling" or "killing" the game, the claims that they show bias towards one team over the other, or that they have a vendetta against a certain team, are absolutely ludicrous. I am getting pretty sick and tired of it too.

Yes, referees do make mistakes, some more than others, but they are human and they are there to do a job. They will not be perfect in their job. They will make plenty of mistakes, and plenty of the mistakes they make, you will not like. That is fine, and sometimes it is okay to question a refereeing decision. Referees will obviously evaluate their own performances, and try to have a better understanding of the laws and try to show more consistency. However, the claims that they have "won the game" or "lost the game" for a team, is simply ridiculous. As are claims that they show any sort of bias.

I hope that some people might read this and realise that refereeing isn't such an easy job. If you expect perfection, go watch a different sport. The laws themselves are not perfect. There are a few things I would like to change, particularly at the breakdown, and some players are VERY good at pushing the laws to the limit and getting away with it. However, the referee does not intentionally let them away with it. So please, stop accusing referees of bias, or winning/losing games for teams. They too are professionals just like the players. They want to do the best they can at their job. Give them a chance.

Hear hear, Rory. Well said.

The referee and the decisions he makes must be respected at all times. We can all get frustrated at times when things don't go our way, but let's remember that, when we support our team, it is we who are taking a biased position, not the referee. He has no interest in who wins, only that the game is managed and played according the the laws and spirit of Rugby Football.

What is most disappointing about this thread, to me, is that it has had to be made at all. We're rugby people... we're supposed to be better than this. Of course we want our team to win, but where I come from, the game is more important than the narrow self interest of individuals or clubs.

Let's remember who we are, ladies and gentlemen. Or perhaps you may prefer to go over to the round ball game.

.

Steve Walsh was suspended because of his very poor behaviour to Shane Horgan?

The ref is not always right.

by Rory_Gallagher Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:53 pm

Morgan I haven't watched the final Australia test, that isn't what my post is about. I haven't even read any comments about it either. Read what I said in my opening post. ALL home nations have been accusing the referee of bias on this tour, including a few irish, who accused Poite of being biased against Munster/Ireland recently. This erupted into a massive row, and ended up with a pretty good poster leaving the forums also. His comments were spot on though before he left.

This isn't anything to do with Wales or Ireland.

by Rory_Gallagher Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:53 pm

Sin é wrote:
Steve Walsh was suspended because of his very poor behaviour to Shane Horgan?

The ref is not always right.

The referee is never always right. He will always make mistakes. It isn't intentional though.

by Morgannwg Sat Jun 23, 2012 7:59 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Morgan I haven't watched the final Australia test, that isn't what my post is about. I haven't even read any comments about it either. Read what I said in my opening post. ALL home nations have been accusing the referee of bias on this tour, including a few irish, who accused Poite of being biased against Munster/Ireland recently. This erupted into a massive row, and ended up with a pretty good poster leaving the forums also. His comments were spot on though before he left.

This isn't anything to do with Wales or Ireland.

But people are allowed to comment on the referee though. Who is the poster that departed? Are they departing forever?

by Rory_Gallagher Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:03 pm

Nobody said they couldn't. However, people who accuse the referee of bias, or accuse them of purposefully trying to make life hard for them, are open to criticism themselves for thinking that. Personally I think that is ridiculous for the most part. And it was Standulsterman, unfortunately. He was completely right in what he said though before leaving. I'm not sure if he will be back.

by anotherworldofpain Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:04 pm

John Cregan wrote:Rory,
Do you believe the last 5 or 10 minoues of the RWC Final was refereed fairly ?

I don't think it's "far out" to suggest the Referee saw clear penalties to France and chose not to award them?? I believe that to be the case as did a large percentage of the people watching it??

That's not corruption, that was probably fear of giving the penalty and denying the "destiny" for McCaw and the All Blacks.....................so am i saying the Ref was biased in that game, YES i believe he was..................it's my opinion...............i don't understand all the vitriol directed toward people with opinions like mine?

I do think so. I know a lot of posters like to backing the underdog and so want the penalty to awarded. But also a lot of posters not referees. So they dont know about the laws so much. Most teams who lose big contest by small amount have fans that blame the referee. NZ do this too in 2007 when Wayne Barnes miss the forward pass and dont penalise France. In the big picture it all even out. Not to worry! relax.

by thebluesmancometh Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:06 pm

What a surprise ghost

thinks the RWC final was a fair contest near the end...

Damn Ive been drawn back into this one!

by anotherworldofpain Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:07 pm

by Rory_Gallagher Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:09 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:What a surprise thinks the RWC final was a fair contest near the end...

Damn Ive been drawn back into this one!

Mate, nobody is trying to WUM you or something if that is what you think. Nor was I trying to "bait" you or anything.

by thebluesmancometh Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:11 pm

Rory I wasn;t accusing you of Wumming but we are never going to see eye to eye on this one I'm afraid...

by Rory_Gallagher Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:11 pm

In fact I would rather you contributed and told me what you mean about interpretations and bias from referees.

by Rory_Gallagher Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:12 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:Rory I wasn;t accusing you of Wumming but we are never going to see eye to eye on this one I'm afraid...

Well you seemed to think I was accusing you of using words such as "corruption" when that wasn't what I was doing. Just because we disagree about it doesn't mean you can't comment. However you don't seem to like commenting on this anymore. Laugh

by thebluesmancometh Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:12 pm

ok lets take a certain point from today's games.

Shall we say the truck and trailor incident in the Wales Aus game?

by anotherworldofpain Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:13 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:In fact I would rather you contributed and told me what you mean about interpretations and bias from referees.

Some referee interpreation suit some team style more. There is no else to see there. Except by the paranoid.

by Rory_Gallagher Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:13 pm

If you are referring to the game today, I haven't seen it yet, I can't comment. Can you explain? I will be watching the game ASAP.

by Rory_Gallagher Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:15 pm

Do any SH posters have anything to say about this? About interpretations, bias towards one side etc.

by thebluesmancometh Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:15 pm

ok after you watch the game we'll start a thread about a few ket decisions.

I'll discuss why I thought they were wrong as I was taught, and you can argue for or against the decision as you see fit.

by Rory_Gallagher Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:16 pm

What about the England-SA game though? You weren't happy with that. Specifically the breakdown it seems.

EDIT: I'll let you know when I catch the game then.

by formerly known as Sam Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:19 pm

The only bad reffing performance I saw was from Rolland whose continued presence as an international referee baffles me. The SH refs showed up well in my opinion, particularly Joubert and Walsh.

by PJHolybloke Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:26 pm

Well Rory, I'm not from the SH as you know, but for my two-pennerth...

I can't say I saw any major problems with any of the reffing in any of the games, ref's have a tough job in any sport. When I was playing rugby (in the Jurassic period) there were something in the order of 120 possible infringements at a lineout... Shocked

There may be more, there may be less nowadays - but I suspect it's something similar.

Wow, like some get missed... whatever.

Bottom line is that when I watch a game of rugby, I pretty much know which team has played better and deserves to have won the game, it isn't very often that that doesn't happen as a result of the ref.

However, one game that immediately springs to mind is the SA V Aus game in the WC, SA played the better game but lost because Lawrence wouldn't let them win "their way".

I doubt very much that was so because he either preferred Aus or didn't want NZ to play SA in the semi, but he did pretty much singlehandedly make it impossible for SA to compete on level terms.

It doesn't happen as often as it should if you believe half you read on this forum. Laugh

by John Cregan Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:28 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Morgan I haven't watched the final Australia test, that isn't what my post is about. I haven't even read any comments about it either. Read what I said in my opening post. ALL home nations have been accusing the referee of bias on this tour, including a few irish, who accused Poite of being biased against Munster/Ireland recently. This erupted into a massive row, and ended up with a pretty good poster leaving the forums also. His comments were spot on though before he left.

This isn't anything to do with Wales or Ireland.

So you along with Standulsterman think i am an idiot too?? Cheers................................

To recap, i accused Poite of being a biased referee(a valid opinion, perhaps im not right but i believe i am). Stand called me an idiot. i responded by objecting to the name calling. A moderator got involved in a polite way to the effect of "play the ball, not the man"..............Stand took grave exception to that and announced he was leaving before calling me an idiot again................................. Fingers Crossed

Stand to come back!!

What harm, rugby is only about my 5th favourite sport!!

by Rory_Gallagher Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:33 pm

Although I can't really remember, I did recall the South Africa - Australia game, because I remember Biltong's frustrations on here. Maybe he can also add his input regarding that game. In what way did the referee make it impossible? I think Pocock had a complete field day if I can remember. However, was it a lack of adapting to the interpretation of the laws by SA? What exactly made the game unplayable for SA, but gave Australia the advantage?

These occasions seem rather rare as well, though as you say on here it seems to be every game now. Laugh

by anotherworldofpain Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:36 pm

Referee now is 10x better than 10 years ago. And they were 10x better than 10 years before.

Used to be a lot of home corruption, bad fitness, and so on.

I can bet in 10 years they will be 10x better again.

But sad for us we live now. Doesn't mean we don't remember fondly the golden memory of the past. Most of the time referee is forgotten. Maybe just enjoy and not get so anxiety.

by Rory_Gallagher Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:37 pm

John Cregan wrote:
So you along with Standulsterman think i am an idiot too?? Cheers................................

To recap, i accused Poite of being a biased referee(a valid opinion, perhaps im not right but i believe i am). Stand called me an idiot. i responded by objecting to the name calling. A moderator got involved in a polite way to the effect of "play the ball, not the man"..............Stand took grave exception to that and announced he was leaving before calling me an idiot again................................. Stand to come back!!

What harm, rugby is only about my 5th favourite sport!!

Things didn't go quite like that. He took exception to the fact that people on these forums are leading witch hunts for the referee now, where everyone is simply blaming the ref, or accusing them of losing/winning a game. 16th player, all that carry on. He is right to be angry about that. Why do you believe Poite would have any bias towards Munster or Ireland anyway?

by PJHolybloke Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:47 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Although I can't really remember, I did recall the South Africa - Australia game, because I remember Biltong's frustrations on here. Maybe he can also add his input regarding that game. In what way did the referee make it impossible? I think Pocock had a complete field day if I can remember. However, was it a lack of adapting to the interpretation of the laws by SA? What exactly made the game unplayable for SA, but gave Australia the advantage?

These occasions seem rather rare as well, though as you say on here it seems to be every game now.

That's about the nuts and bolts of it Rory, "Pocock had a field day" because Lawrence just didn't see him doing anything wrong, but as soon as SA thought "lets play to the ref then" he pinged them off the park for no more or less than Pocock was allowed to do with impunity.

SA couldn't get quick ball, couldn't attack the gainline and therefore couldn't play the game their way...

by John Cregan Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:48 pm

I have no idea why?? That's a question for Mr. Poite...........I think Stand was an angry man alright!!

I don't understand the anger regarding people discussing referees and what they think of them..................some of us think some (a small minority of refs)referees are biased, some think they are all honest...................

This is about opinions surely...................

by Rory_Gallagher Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:52 pm

PJHolybloke wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:Although I can't really remember, I did recall the South Africa - Australia game, because I remember Biltong's frustrations on here. Maybe he can also add his input regarding that game. In what way did the referee make it impossible? I think Pocock had a complete field day if I can remember. However, was it a lack of adapting to the interpretation of the laws by SA? What exactly made the game unplayable for SA, but gave Australia the advantage?

These occasions seem rather rare as well, though as you say on here it seems to be every game now.

That's about the nuts and bolts of it Rory, "Pocock had a field day" because Lawrence just didn't see him doing anything wrong, but as soon as SA thought "lets play to the ref then" he pinged them off the park for no more or less than Pocock was allowed to do with impunity.

SA couldn't get quick ball, couldn't attack the gainline and therefore couldn't play the game their way...

Hmm.. that one sounds pretty bad. Wouldn't mind re-watching that. Did he get put under review or anything?

by PJHolybloke Sat Jun 23, 2012 8:58 pm

Errr, slaughtered publicly, sanctioned privately, and ultimately dropped from the IRB's list of Test refs. I doubt he'll officiate another one.

by PJHolybloke Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:04 pm

PS Biltong refuses to recognise him as anything other than "Bruce" Lawrence from that day forth, and Biltong is a level bloke who just doesn't whine about refs, at all.

by Rory_Gallagher Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:05 pm

Wow. I really would like to see this game again. My memory is shocking!

by mowgli Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:08 pm

PJHolybloke wrote:Errr, slaughtered publicly, sanctioned privately, and ultimately dropped from the IRB's list of Test refs. I doubt he'll officiate another one.

I hear that SARFU clubbed together to buy him a timeshare in Cape Town

by sugarNspikes Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:09 pm

I have to say I was pretty impressed by Walsh today.

The number I times I thought, "why's he blown for that?" or "why's he made that decision?" and then the replay showed he was bang on most of the time.

He's still a bit of a nobber as a person, but as a ref I don't have many complaints at all these days.

by PJHolybloke Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:11 pm

It's not a good watch to be fair Rory, refs do have shockers every now and again, but that was a REAL shocker. Shocked

POB got moved on around the same time, the rumour mill has it that it was as a result of his defense of Lawrence's "performance", but I have no proof of that whatsoever as it was purely rumour.

Here's a fact though, POB ain't the capo di capo no more... chin

by Rory_Gallagher Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:15 pm

I'm going to be doing some research on this. Thanks PJ!

However, even if on this occasion Lawrence was proven to show bias towards a team, I do not believe this is a common thing at all. I still think that people have become far too comfortable with blaming the referee for their own teams' performance recently.

by PJHolybloke Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:21 pm

sugarNspikes wrote:I have to say I was pretty impressed by Walsh today.

The number I times I thought, "why's he blown for that?" or "why's he made that decision?" and then the replay showed he was bang on most of the time.

He's still a bit of a nobber as a person, but as a ref I don't have many complaints at all these days.

I like Walsh as a ref, he's had his problems but he seems to have turned his life around and straightened his shoite out, in the first Test against SA he was heard to compliment Robshaw on his snaffling during a break in play.

That doesn't in itself represent a positive credential in terms of his ability as a ref, but it does show that he has empathy for what players are trying to do under his direction as the "game manager"; they're all human, they all love the game, some have an over-abundance of affection for themselves, but I've yet to see a ref that's been "bought" or has a nationalistic bias that roughly translates as "cheating".

thebluesmancometh was right on another thread Rory, SH refs seem to have a different approach to the breakdown than NH refs, it doesn't mean that refs are cheating or biased across the lines of the hemispheres, it just means that the game up here is controlled slightly differently to the game down there; however, the Laws are identical.

Who's have thunked it? Laugh

by Sponsored content