"Teams look to bet on Black"

First topic message reminder :

I have looked at some of the post tour so called 'analysis' on here and frankly got bored by most of it. Fundamentally the NH are playing an inferior game physically and tactically and in some cases mentally, with also ref interpretation being a factor and the current contingent making up the IRB refereeing panel.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/rugby/news/article.cfm?c_id=80&objectid=10815170

The above highlights the current trend in how various NH teams are attempting to address the gap and immediately conceding to chasing and trying to catch up the leaders, rather than looking for a different approach. This will always fail as those that leave NZ, will only be predominantly secondary to those that stay and hence inferior, otherwise they would have been found roles in the admittedly limited number of teams in the top tier.

In previous era's Cooke, Rowell, Woodward & McGeechan all attempted to set the agenda with specific styles and structures in the international game, with varying levels of success. No-one currently in the NH is trying to do this and by meekly accepting the NZ way as the only way and kowtowing & accepting the current ref interpretations, the NH will never effectively challenge consistently the NZ hegemony and in turn doing rugby a disservice by making our varied game more homogenous and RL like in some facets of the game.

Some of the tour results and subsequent posts on here, were pretty depressing but the real issue is challenging the game we wish to play and watch and who sets that initiative to assist in achieving consistent results.

As an aside, Kidney is surviving because the alternative is a kiwi, which the IRFU can't stomach......? Just a thought.

I don't know really. But it's close enough to Canterbury, NZ where rugby legends are cloned. Everyone knows where Richie plays his rugby. Heaven on earth. That's why the refs always believe him.

Was thinking about canterbury the other day kia and the interesting thing is when considering the pkayers over the years- say from colour tv onwards... I could only name five players that would be considered for the best NZ side in that period.
Two pairs are the same position. Merts and Carter. Marshall and G Bachop. Mccaw would be the fifth and as a player the iceman would challenge. So at best i get 3 for a team that has generally been best or second best for the entire period. Am I wrong or are there others?

Certainly confirms the collective team abilities over the years but who else would be close to a dead cert?

Brad thorne would be close...

Shayne Philpott covers every position in the backline.

Brad Thorn definitely is one for me though it's a disservice to the other greats. But I see what you mean. We certainly don't have many in the forwards like Zinny, Dowd, Fitzpatrick, Brown ad nauseum. Chris Jack had his moments before his decline but wouldn't make a greats side. Owen Franks wouldn't either. I think many people overlook him but one for the bench was Yoda. There are few players equally at home on both sides of the scrum and for that alone makes the bench at least.

We'll claim SBW as well. He learned how to play rugby in Canterbury before going to the Chiefs. But he wouldn't outclass Nonu let alone Umaga.

It's an interesting call. I think the strength of Canterbury and Crusaders has been their collective strength rather than their individual brilliance.

yes, we previously tried to deliver the Webb Ellis House Special ordered by Mr Henry, delivery Paris, 2007. But he got mugged by an Englishman on the way, and so our driver was forced to hand it over to a bunch of large South Africans in some suburb of Paris. Glad your 2011 order arrived ok. We will be happy to take your 2015 order now, but it will need to an address a bit closer to the Rugby area.

Mate, the tea leaves have spoken. Who played in the 87 final. NZ and France. What was the score in 11. 8 - 7. What is 8 + 7 and when is the next World Cup?

We'll have that House Special again but no pineapple this time. Put beetroot and an egg like our hamburgers. Don't worry. We're only ordering it to line our stomachs.

Kia, irrefutable logic. who can argue with that ordeer.

kiwi4ever wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

ultra wrote:3 P's, like it.....england's at the moment seem to be: Push, Pass then Punt!

On a serious note the ELVs will never be moulded via the NH simply because of an old school, dare I say it, arrogant mentality still adopted by the RFU.

Really? Its the RFU that led the way in 8 men benches, something the SH has desperately tried to drag its heals on...especially the Aussies who cant even get 3 decent props let alone 4
Theres plenty of other innovations suggested by the North too. Its complete bunk to say its one way traffic.

Don't give us the BS. It is because the NH players are to fat and slow to last 50 minutes against SH teams, thats why they want extra players on the bench. Just like it takes most NH teams 20 minutes to start falling over like soccer players so their forwards can have rest.

Bloody hell it was only 5 years ago my cousin played in a guniess premiership team after he relised he was never going to crack the Crusaders full time starting team. He was hooker and was one of fittest guys on his team once he got to the UK!!!! Their forwards were professional players and most had a big jelly gut.

anotherworldofpain wrote:
You see the celebration here when someone win the 6N! Is ridiculous in compare with the rank of the teams in the competition! All winners of the 6N think they earned already the right to beat SANZAR team. When both things are not connected. "We won the 6N! as GRANDSLAM CHAMPIONS!!! Now we will go beat Australia!!!!"

I've never been able to understand that mentality. Isn't the 6N nations rugby's equivalent of special Olympics; I mean its great for special participants and you give them the support just like the others but not on the same level of meaning.

Special Olympics? What an obnoxious ignorant individual. It's the Para Olympics, which stands for Parallel.

Jeez, you come from a country that plays one sport extremely well and think you can talk about entire nations like they're somehow "disabled", seriously, get over your big bad self.

PJ the special thing was uncalled for. But that's pretty ignorant-we are pretty damn good at more than one sport and I'm sure other Kiwis will be more than willing to give you a list of non-rugby achievements. You're better than that mate.

Well in fairness he was responding to a very condescending post mate.

Crusaders/Canterbury,Best is subjective at best over the years how can you equate a Worlds best.Hooker dad Young,Locks at the time they played Tiny Hill,Chris Jack,Ali Williams ,Brad Thorn,Bob Duff.Loose forwards Tiny Hill again.McCaw,Read,Bob Stuart,Kel Tremain,Greg Somerville,Owen Franks is 24/5 NOW and is one of the best in the World.Props mature at 30 and can expect toplay till at least 35.Marshall,Bachop.Carter,Merths.Mauger,and on and on.K.C.Stuart was another Great.

True Kia just it was sinking to that level tho I felt

disneychilly wrote:PJ the special thing was uncalled for. But that's pretty ignorant-we are pretty damn good at more than one sport and I'm sure other Kiwis will be more than willing to give you a list of non-rugby achievements. You're better than that mate.

You're quite right. It just got to me to be honest, I should and in fact do know better.

There is no RIGHT way to play Rugby,or style the basics are the same for all sides.Simplistic?BUT the All Blacks have always done the basics well.WHEN they lose they go back to the match or matches analyse what went wrong and fix it.In the 1930`s the 2-3-2 Scrum was banned and forced adoption of a 3-4-1 Scrum without understanding the mechanics of it.From 1921-28 they were with
The Boks jointly THE worlds best.In the period 1933-49 until the Scrum was fixed they were inferior to the Boks in the Scrum.It blighted there Rugby in that area until a Great Bok Coach,possibley THE Great Bok Coach DR DANIE CRAVEN helpedthem fix it.From that day on The AllBlacks versus Boks on matches won,lost,drawn until the Professional era[1996] is IDENTICAL Home advantage being the difference.It took the NH nearly 70 years to catch the SH up,until the likes of Carwyn James Coaching overtook the SH.IRONIES firstly the AB`s realised in 1928 that they needed to change it.SECONDLY the NH led IRB didn`t object to the 2-3-2 IT DID object to the ROVER??WING FORWARD.OR the CHEAT as they preferred to call it nothing new there.He became the prototype for Hennie Muller style Number 8 play,until Bill Clark did it better in 1956.Mc Caw is now matched by his overseas clones now.Finally could you see your most bitter rival fixing your game today.?THEN the Ruck keystone of the AllBlacks game since the days of OLD and YOUNG VIC was banned another irony
the AB`s.Had abandoned it in favour of the Driving Maul because they knew NH Refs would penalize them out of the game.Nearly 4 years unbeaten then AGAIN the NH dominated IRB changed the rules to dis advantage them.That of course is a simplistic view teams go in cycles,THE Great teams of 1960`s,gave way to a looser weaker period of the 1970`s.With RWC`s the cycle is about every 8 years for an AB side BUT Post RWCs.Lots of players at least since 2003 wentNorth or to Japan for a pension.If you look at the teams mentioned ONLY SCW`s was REALLY successful against SH sides[really only SA and NZ then].
Again how successful was that?at the back end of his reign 2002-3 VERY but the SH sides in the early 1970s,and 2000 period were at the low end of there cycles.ABs possibly excepted BUT they were`nt by there best standards a particularly physical side.Now we come to the point of the thread really at the top level a Side should be able to play in ANY STYLE.The Coaches should set out there ideas then pick players that can implement them NOT try to adopt someone elses ideas.The AllBlacks are now at the start of a rebuilding phase they have lost key players.They will lose more as the chequebook is waved SBW has played his last test according to the NYHT hence Nonu being kept underwraps.Key AB players are becoming injury prone,there replacements are different and not as YET defined.A 7 who had a good one and a half matches versus Ireland isn`t the same as a full Strength Boks side at Loftus or Port Elizabeth.[with due respect to BOTH sides].The fact is the AllBlacks have very LITTLE depth of EXPERIENCED TEST players say of more than 40 caps outside the current incumbents.THEY DO have incredible strength in depth BUT it is a case of getting them established.Were Isaac Ross and Stephen Donald really as bad as they were made to look in 2009.Or were they just unlucky to be chucked into a understrength injury riddled side before they could bed in.
Sound familiar how many players were sacrificed on the alter of JONNY the god,Neil Back,Richard Hill,Martin Johnson?. WHEN any side has a great run and it ends it becomes oh its the coach,Selectors etc.Instead of accepting it is the natural order of things.THE Life of the INSTANT FIX a light bulb goes replace it with a better one.HOW many potentiallyGreat players were sacrifced after being overpraised or rubbished because the were`nt te established ones.Charlie Hodgeson,Olly Barclay,Danny Cipriani,Mathew Tait.Gaven Henson,because they WERENT Jonny,BOD,or who ever yes i know BOD is Irish.Players stuck in out of position,or never getting a run because THE Man would be back.Any one unlucky enough to be backing up RM,DC or Fitzy could have told you that.
To sum up select your players plus potential back ups to suit your game plans then execute them to the best of you r ability and let the other side worry about YOU!!!!.NZ at least have one huge advantage the Super sides co-operate as much as they can to the national Coches ideas of game plans .With teams like England that is at least twice as many and France 3 times and when nearly half of you players arn`t qualified for the National side[France].One can see the problems.

PJHolybloke wrote:
Special Olympics? What an obnoxious ignorant individual. It's the Para Olympics, which stands for Parallel.

Jeez, you come from a country that plays one sport extremely well and think you can talk about entire nations like they're somehow "disabled", seriously, get over your big bad self.

Actually the Special Olympics exists as well, its something they use to patronise people who we dont call retards because its offensive ("intellectual disabilities"). The next Special Olympics World World Games is being held in Nort Carolina, make of that what you will....

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

PJHolybloke wrote:
Special Olympics? What an obnoxious ignorant individual. It's the Para Olympics, which stands for Parallel.

Jeez, you come from a country that plays one sport extremely well and think you can talk about entire nations like they're somehow "disabled", seriously, get over your big bad self.

Actually the Special Olympics exists as well, its something they use to patronise people who we dont call retards because its offensive ("intellectual disabilities"). The next Special Olympics World World Games is being held in Nort Carolina, make of that what you will....

Indeed......Nort Carolina? Never heard of it.....do you come from there?