IRB take action on Mike Phillips

Announced today that the IRB have agreed to change the laws of the game to speed up Mike Phillips at the base of rucks. The introduction of the 5 second rule should also benefit Priestland's game

Gatlands worried it may unfairly penalise Wales and would rather the use of an illuminous ball to guide Phillips' eyes.

Will Genia will also be impacted... his speed at the ruck during the Wales series was painfully slow.

I still wonder how will referees interpret available ball, it could be a very contentious situation, referee has the right to take away posession because he deems a ball available?

Nice to see the boks taking something from Sarries for a change with the conga-ruck and box kick.

It has been binned hammer.

We will now have a guy with a BB gun at every Bok match, you do the conga at your own peril.

biltongbek wrote:I still wonder how will referees interpret available ball, it could be a very contentious situation, referee has the right to take away posession because he deems a ball available?

No more so than it is currently " i thought it was out ref" " no ..go to the bin you idiot"

I assume they will have something like a "use it" warning given at 5 seconds, as they do for mauls etc

Will the ref have to count to five for him? Or will the Welsh coaching staff have to send him to night school?

Does anyone know what happens if the ball is not moved within 5secs. Penalty, Freekick, Scrum ?

I think refs will be fairly lenient with the five seconds and only start the count down if they feel the scrum half is taking too long. I talked to some semi pro level refs (as in refs who officiate at semi pro level) and that was the way they were intending to bring it in. No need for a count down at every ruck, it's just a tool to hurry up the 9 if it's required.

dragonbreath wrote:Does anyone know what happens if the ball is not moved within 5secs. Penalty, Freekick, Scrum ?

By memory a scrum is awarded to the opposition which was part of te controversy, because that will not speed up the game, scrums can take much, much longer than a ruck.

biltongbek wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:Does anyone know what happens if the ball is not moved within 5secs. Penalty, Freekick, Scrum ?

By memory a scrum is awarded to the opposition which was part of te controversy, because that will not speed up the game, scrums can take much, much longer than a ruck.

SO that will play into a strong scrummaging sides hands. You have the ball on your own five yard line and kicking clear is looking like a bitch. You just hold the ball at the back of the ruck. The opposition get a scrum, the ref gives a pen against them (for one of the numerous scrum time infringements, their choice) and then you can hammer it clear. Win the line out, set up a ruck. Repeat the process and then bang over the three points!

biltongbek wrote:

dragonbreath wrote:Does anyone know what happens if the ball is not moved within 5secs. Penalty, Freekick, Scrum ?

By memory a scrum is awarded to the opposition which was part of te controversy, because that will not speed up the game, scrums can take much, much longer than a ruck.

Its like for like. A scrum is a formalised ruck. What they are doing is resetting the ruck but swapping the side that has the advantage.

Its still an improvement on the current situation where the opposition merely have to get 1 point ahead in the game then get the ball and wait for the clock to tick down.

And lets be honest, its only if sides are getting utterly tooled in the scrum that they loose more than they win. The 8 man bench should help avoid the level of mismatch you got in England Ireland where they played most of the game with a prop playing the wrong side.

SO that will play into a strong scrummaging sides hands. You have the ball on your own five yard line and kicking clear is looking like a bitch. You just hold the ball at the back of the ruck. The opposition get a scrum, the ref gives a pen against them (for one of the numerous scrum time infringements, their choice) and then you can hammer it clear. Win the line out, set up a ruck. Repeat the process and then bang over the three points!

Spidy that would have to be one incredibly dominant scrum. Don't think we'll see many teams attempting that, even the Tigers or Saints with their hulking front rows may consider that a bit risky. You never know if the ref will allow the opposition to wheel and the 8 to break off and score (or you do know if the ref is Wayne Barnes). A poor ref may also give the pen the other way for a minor infraction which would be a pretty foolish way to concede 3 points.

I'd hate to be a rugby referee atm. The amount of problems this could potentially cause. I can already hear the fans shouting "That wasn't 5 seconds! It was 3!" or "He has had longer than 5 seconds, penalty!"

They are over complicating things far too much.

Sam - ok the example was a bit extreme. Although there are some games where you can see the ref is only ever going to ref the scrum one way, and if he is one armed to your favour people will use it.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I'd hate to be a rugby referee atm. The amount of problems this could potentially cause. I can already hear the fans shouting "That wasn't 5 seconds! It was 3!" or "He has had longer than 5 seconds, penalty!"

They are over complicating things far too much.

I agree, it's worrying how easily referees can influence the game now.

I think it is just a guideline Rory, I wouldn't expect refs to start the count down at every ruck. Though I've just had a nasty thought about crowds pressuring refs by starting the count down for them at each ruck. Refs will need to keep firm control.

Possibly Spidy but it would be one hell of a risk in front of your own posts. Perhaps in the opponents half if you are near half way and the opposition defence is suffocating your attack. Would have been handy for Tigers in the AP Final they lost to Sarries. Attack? Nah their defence is to good, just get in their half and we'll have a penalty from the scrum. A risky tactic but maybe we will see a team desperate enough to try it.

Any different to decideing when a maul has stopped? When a ball isnt coming out? When a side is delaying a put in?
So long as they warn before blowing up I really cant see the problem.

It has to be better than some refs deciding at random to invoke their own law and occasionally doing it anyway as they do currently.

The current situation cannot continue. Free kicking them might have been better for game flow though.

Sam - That is the problem though, a guideline can be interpreted, and this is going to lead to some very angry fans. I think the referee should be allowed to say "okay, use it" similar to how he can hurry up the kicker at the 22 drop out, or tell the 8/9 to use it at the scrum, or in a maul. Is there a time limit on that too, or are they just entitled to hurry it up? I think putting an actual time limit is a bit extreme.

Is there a time limit on the mauls though? I think the idea is good, but the 5 second rule is silly.

No time limit on a maul, if it goes stationary, you have one more chance to maul, second time, halfback must use it.

I would have thought that a free kick would be a better alternative than awarding a scrum, which as mentioned is counter productive to the whole point of speeding up the play.

I don't think refs will start the count down straight away. I think a level of common sense is what is needed here. If the ref thinks a side is delaying then he should just shout 'use it' or maybe '5 seconds' then '3 seconds' then '1 second'. If a scrum half is too dull to get the ball away after a countdown then he probably shouldn't be out on his own without a carer.

doctornickolas wrote:I would have thought that a free kick would be a better alternative than awarding a scrum, which as mentioned is counter productive to the whole point of speeding up the play.

I don't think refs will start the count down straight away. I think a level of common sense is what is needed here. If the ref thinks a side is delaying then he should just shout 'use it' or maybe '5 seconds' then '3 seconds' then '1 second'. If a scrum half is too dull to get the ball away after a countdown then he probably shouldn't be out on his own without a carer.

I couldn't agree more, however that is where it will all fall down, as common sence with Ref A and with Ref B will be two different things, and two totally different reffing decisions for the same breakdown.

biltongbek wrote:No time limit on a maul, if it goes stationary, you have one more chance to maul, second time, halfback must use it.

Yes but refs judgements on what is stationary and how quickly the ball has to be used are judgements. And they are warned.

This isnt going to be a case of refs randomly blowing up when they feel like it ( as they do for an inconclusive ruck). It a warning and push for teams to get on and use the ball. the difficulty and inconsistency is not different to the billion other things a ref has to do, including the way its currently handled....especially since the IRB directive to make up a penalty on a team who appears to be time wasting in this way.

Thinking about it you can probable expect to see a larger number of pens for hands in, off the feet etc at the ruck as every second will count.

slartibartfast wrote:Announced today that the IRB have agreed to change the laws of the game to speed up Mike Phillips at the base of rucks. The introduction of the 5 second rule should also benefit Priestland's game

Gatlands worried it may unfairly penalise Wales and would rather the use of an illuminous ball to guide Phillips' eyes.

Post of the day. Bravo!!

This is essentially another tool for the whistle.

5 seconds at the ruck means there will be a certain team or two that will now train to kill ball, as they will not only halt the opposition attack but also turn them over.

= more players on the wrong side / trapped

= more penalties

= more contentious issues

= more blame for refs.

And what happens god forbid on the 79th minute team A is a point up but trapped in their 22, trying to run the clock down, then kick into touch, Team B manage to kill the ruck so it's unplayable, scrum to team B who get the pen to win the game = 1 sacked ref!

I think what the refs are objecting to is the fact they have to show the 5 seconds doing a WWF wrestling 5 count beating their hand on the deck. This will allow the blindside flanker to pull out a chair from the touchline and whack the halfback out cold forcing the penalty.

thebluesmancometh wrote:This is essentially another tool for the whistle.

5 seconds at the ruck means there will be a certain team or two that will now train to kill ball, as they will not only halt the opposition attack but also turn them over.

= more players on the wrong side / trapped

= more penalties

= more contentious issues

= more blame for refs.

And what happens god forbid on the 79th minute team A is a point up but trapped in their 22, trying to run the clock down, then kick into touch, Team B manage to kill the ruck so it's unplayable, scrum to team B who get the pen to win the game = 1 sacked ref!

I don't follow your point. Doesn't that happen now? Or are you saying Team A should be able to run the clock down with the ball left in a ruck?

Forgive my ignorance, but is it 5 seconds when the ball is just sitting there just waiting to be picked up and distributed but where at present a team just takes the mick and leaves it there wasting time, ala ABs in the last minutes of the WC final? Or does the 5 secs start when a ruck forms? I'd have thought the former, which is a good thing to stop, I reckon.

5 seconds from the moment the referee deems the ball to be available.

Sweet, nothing wrong with that. If its available, and then becomes unavailable due to a drive, then the 5 secs starts again, right?

Not sure how they will interpret that, I would think when the ball is deeemd available then it means the ruck has been secured.

Allan rowland will have his stop watch ready at evey ruck

To me it should be either a free kick or everyone is onside - as soon as it becomes impossible for the defence to compete for the ball, which is what happens with eveyone lying all over the place, then it should be Considered open play.

Imagine/dream - world cup final, you've got a ruck under your own posts and you're winning by 1 point with 10 seconds to go - Allan Rowland counts to 5 and gives scrum and drop goal opportunity to Scotland. Can you imagine the uproar in england?

Or

You're in the opposition 22 - what better way to count the clock down than by giving away a scrum that'll take 3 years to set up and reset


My point being: teams will use this to their advantage by the sanction being a scrum.

EBOP wrote:Forgive my ignorance, but is it 5 seconds when the ball is just sitting there just waiting to be picked up and distributed but where at present a team just takes the mick and leaves it there wasting time, ala ABs in the last minutes of the WC final? Or does the 5 secs start when a ruck forms? I'd have thought the former, which is a good thing to stop, I reckon.

Yes thats exactly what its designed for.
The ref is in effect declaring the ruck inconclusive, as they would if the ball was buried in the middle and not coming out, with benefit going to the defending team as they are making some effort to get the ball.

Im surprised by the amount of resistance to it given its exactly the sort of law people have been begging for and does nothing to fundamentally alter the game. Theres a couple of other minor tweaks to cut down on clock killing been made as well.

slartibartfast wrote:Imagine/dream - world cup final, you've got a ruck under your own posts and you're winning by 1 point with 10 seconds to go - Allan Rowland counts to 5 and gives scrum and drop goal opportunity to Scotland. Can you imagine the uproar in england?

Or

You're in the opposition 22 - what better way to count the clock down than by giving away a scrum that'll take 3 years to set up and reset


My point being: teams will use this to their advantage by the sanction being a scrum.

The ref will warn with a "use it"

How different is it to the current situation where the IRB has told refs to penalise teams more harshly if they are holding the ball in this way (ie make up offences)? Far less controversial Id say

biltongbek wrote:5 seconds from the moment the referee deems the ball to be available.

JUst thinking about it, anyone else see some refs (we all know the letter of the law types) will see a player get tackled and hold the ball out for his side, and start counting to five as the ruck is forming, because the ball is there to be picked up.

Could be interesting to see what happens with a long kick an chase, as usually one player gets the ball and gets tackled, the next two there are form a ruck, and then when the pack arrives the ball gets used. If there are only 5 seconds from when it is available, the long kick down the fullbacks throat may become a good offensive weapon (as long as it is just outside his 22).

I can see a lot of teams being caught being the gain line in attack because a scrum half will have to pass regardless of whether the attack is ready or not. I can see what the IRB are trying to do but I think this will lead to a lot of frutration for fans. It gives a massive advantage to defences and actually gives more ability to the referee to decide the out come in games.