Sir Clive praises Wales; the fans Response

by Morgannwg Sun 01 Jul 2012, 11:51 pm

SCW, the guy who orchestrated the disaster Lions tour of 2005 has praised the new look Wales structure, apparently referring to the new Elite Pathways system.

The Welsh Rugby Union elite pathway structure has been singled out for praise by the former coach who masterminded England's Rugby World Cup victory.

Sir Clive Woodward says the focus on developing quality players has helped the senior national side select from strength.
He also pinpointed the establishment of a WRU National Centre of Excellence at the Vale Resort near Cardiff as a key factor.

"Wales realised the importance of quality, not quantity. They have, in partnership with the Vale of Glamorgan resort, established an outstanding centre of excellence.

"They have a highly experienced, settled administration and coaching team. Rob Howley, interim coach in Australia, proved they also have succession planning in hand. The physical condition and mindset of the Wales team have clearly changed for the better."

Woodward also supported his argument by naming key Wales players he says outline his argument.

He named George North, Alex Cuthbert and Sam Warburton who are all players developed through the age grade and 7's structures in Wales.

The former Engalnd coach was explaining his views on elite performance as a priority in player development for national teams.

Accessed at: http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/news/22732.php

Some fans comments, posted via WRU facebook;

Why do 22 people like this for woodwards a nobody now...

Thanks for the praise clive but this welsh team would have dwarfed, dismantled and destroyed your england side.

who'd have thought "Sir" clive would be so glowing in his praise. how the power has shifted. the autumn internationals and the 6N cant come quickly enough.

L: in your dreams dont be so silly.We can't even beat an average Aussie team

Woodward was a fantastic coach for England, he had the time to breed consistency in his side and a man who loves the game. His praise shows that with more time and consistency we will be even better after ironing out the kinks we now have. Welcome praise indeed.

One thing u could always say is the guy knew his onions and has always been complimentary of the Wales way in 2005 lions he said the welsh guys were the glue of the lions this is praise on our team and structure take the praise and thrive on it no need for english/welsh rivalry in this case

Don't need clive and his condescending blurb.we were naive and clueless against 2 of the tests v Aus. nearly men too many times. Slam or not

ffs-ple have lost track of reality, the welsh team still aint beat a SH team away in 40yrs,woodwood is possibly the greatest coach of the entire history of the NH, he's defo the only singler nation coach to go to NZ and beat them on their own patch, ple here should give more respect to this guy, when we beat a SH team then we can start talking billy big bolix! honestly until we learn to win games with a similar mentality to englands team of 2000-2004 we've nothing to shout about, why oh why do we get so carried away with coming close but never getting over the winning line-woodwood was a winner give the guy his dues-period.................

I love our national team. And think we are better than alot of the top 8 teams. But we cant claim to be a heavyweight until we beat the southern hemisphere teams more than just once in a blue moon. No matter how much praise they get from anyone. And that includes sir Clive. We'll see where we really are this autumn. Good luck wales.

quote ''the physical condition AND MINDSET of the wales team has clearlly changed for the better''.........although woodward isnt the best of ''friends'' to welsh rugby he is definitly bang-on here the majority of people who really know rugby have known for years that our inability to get over the s.h hurdle is more down to a phsycological factor rather than being able to match them in strength speed or stratergy im sure this has been aknowleged by our coaching team but untill the boys really start believing, trully believing, that we can beat these so called super powers then it will allways be a case of ow so near...but in the same breath after the w.c semi's the grand slam and the 'ow soo near' tour the weight of belief behind the boys(and us fans) is continued to grow n grow,the young talent we have is emmense just gotta add to unshakeable belief and we will be unstoppable.........stroll on the autumn internationals............

Quotations taken from facebook.com/WelshRugbyUnion.

I welcome Sir Clives praise. He clearly knows his stuff Smile

. The Regional academies are working and now they are supplemented by the pathways that should feed better players into them. There has also been an U18 tour of SA announced, where a 'development XV will face SA, Eng and Fra.

by wales606 Sun 01 Jul 2012, 11:57 pm

People on fb not knowing anything about rugby...shocker

If you read any of the comments on rugby from FB they are all ridiculous, and its probably the same for all unions.

by Morgannwg Mon 02 Jul 2012, 12:21 am

Most comments seem ridiculous, but some are reasonable. The fans on FB seem to hate the WRU and are overly pessimistic.

by **Biltong** Mon 02 Jul 2012, 12:29 am

I can never understand why people need to react so negatively about the opinions of "rugby personalities"

We have the same thing over here in SA, Nick Mallet has been in studio this ummer tour and were obviously asked his comment on the squad selections and tactics of Heyneke Meyer, and because it is an ex Bulls coach, with bulls assistant coaches and a good number of Bulls players, the reaction has been very similar than these of the OP.

I used to post on a SA site but most of the posters there are Bulls supporters and it was a never ending situation where if you criticised any bulls player it would be mostly unpleasant.

by mowgli Mon 02 Jul 2012, 2:33 am

SCW didn't beat anyone, he had an amazing group of players in 2003 yet when he tried to replicate this in 2005 with an even more amazing group of players he went against everything he had learned and went with a largely English side of has beens who were mullered. Anyone who follows the lions knows the 2005 tour was everything a lions tour shouldn't be (even with Alistair mad as a fish Campbell spinning it)

the guy is even more old news now and I really don't know why anyone pays attention to him but of course he is trying to find his post olympic job.

by blackcanelion Mon 02 Jul 2012, 6:00 am

To be fair the laws/interpretation at the breakdown had changed by 05. Playing the 02/03 style was always going to be less effective.

by PJHolybloke Mon 02 Jul 2012, 7:19 am

Too many levels of irony to mention.

But on the whole, I think the facts that the WRU have in place the elite pathway, central contracts and centre of excellence are the most poignant.

These are the very things that SCW wanted the RFU to put in place post 2003, and the failure of the RFU to do anything about them was the main reason he resigned from his England role.

You only have to read SCW's account of his first day in charge of England and his arrival at HQ to see how much difference he made in such a short time, but ultimately, he failed to mobilise the "blazers" into anything resembling an elite organisation... he just got tired of it all.

He should have known better than to compliment Wales and the WRU though. Very Happy

by mowgli Mon 02 Jul 2012, 8:07 am

Now I know SCW Is actually HERSH

by maestegmafia Mon 02 Jul 2012, 8:32 am

Very nice of SCW to compliment the WRU. The hard work of the hundreds of coaches too deserve commendation.

by damage_13 Mon 02 Jul 2012, 9:37 am

The Mad Professor was in Rugby, like a few of the players he coached, a one-off. He arrived at the perfect time during the early professional era, and brought in many, many ideas that are now considered to be standard at Elite level.

He also had some of the most daft brain-farts, but by and large is someone worth listening to on elite level pathways and the players at the time brought wholly into his ideas.

The Lions 2005 was a disaster, losing two captains and leaders in the first matches and having a very tired squad didn't help. his micro-management style went straight over the heads of some players and was a shock to others. Even with Geech there, it was a real shame he couldn't get the group to function and play well.

When he finishes with the Olympics he'll be back into Rugby and we'll have his bizarre mind-games and ideas to laugh at and follow once again.

by Zander Mon 02 Jul 2012, 11:01 am

I don't understand why the Welsh fans on Facebook are being so critical of SCW, all he did was give them a complement!

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 02 Jul 2012, 11:17 am

Ah, but he's English, Zander - and much worse than that, he oversaw a hugely successful England side. To some troglodyte Welshmen (albeit troglodytes with wi-fi), that's enough for them to hate him.

by PJHolybloke Mon 02 Jul 2012, 11:40 am

maestegmafia wrote:Very nice of SCW to compliment the WRU. The hard work of the hundreds of coaches too deserve commendation.

The entire set up in Wales needs to be congratulated from top to bottom, it just needs the regions to be on a stronger financial footing and the blueprint is in place for a strong national team AND strong regions. Ireland have strong provinces but that hasn't really translated to the National team, in Wales it seems to be the opposite.

Personally, I think Wales is closer to cracking the nut, but the new salary cap might set things back a bit.

Nobody has it nailed down worldwide, but I would say SA is making the best fist of it as things stand.

It will be interesting to see which country gets it right from top to bottom first. Count England out whilst the RFU exists in it's current format...

by funnyExiledScot Mon 02 Jul 2012, 1:50 pm

His Sunday Times articles seems to me to be solely about making two points over and over again:

1. I am an elite gold medal winner. I get up in the morning, and everything I do is elite. I win at breakfast before surrounding myself with elite people before winning my way to lunch and eating my way to excellence.

2. The RFU are rubbish, and don't know what an elite winner I am.

He doesn't seem to mention the howlers in his coaching past, both with England and the Lions, nor his appointment as England coach (which if his own standards of "excellence" were applied to the search, he wouldn't have made a long list of 20 at the time).

I do recognise that he did well with England, notwithstanding a couple of notable failures and a forgiving RFU after the 1999 World Cup ("judge me on the World Cup), and he is an innovative thinker, but I find his articles a little tedious and self-congratulatory.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Mon 02 Jul 2012, 1:52 pm

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 02 Jul 2012, 3:09 pm

Sir Clive Woodward wrote:"They have a highly experienced, settled administration and coaching team. Rob Howley, interim coach in Australia, proved they also have succession planning in hand."

That bit made me shudder.

by mowgli Mon 02 Jul 2012, 6:31 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Sir Clive Woodward wrote:"They have a highly experienced, settled administration and coaching team. Rob Howley, interim coach in Australia, proved they also have succession planning in hand."

That bit made me shudder.

No what it means is, they know he is not the successor after Australia

by Morgannwg Mon 02 Jul 2012, 6:43 pm

mowgli wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Sir Clive Woodward wrote:"They have a highly experienced, settled administration and coaching team. Rob Howley, interim coach in Australia, proved they also have succession planning in hand."

That bit made me shudder.

No what it means is, they know he is not the successor after Australia

We hope that's what it means.

by BigTrevsbigmac Mon 02 Jul 2012, 7:01 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Sir Clive Woodward wrote:"They have a highly experienced, settled administration and coaching team. Rob Howley, interim coach in Australia, proved they also have succession planning in hand."

That bit made me shudder.

I thought Howley was an exceptional player but -

because Gatland had a freakish accident & the next coach by default happens to be Howley = succession planning ? Not too sure about that.

by majesticimperialman Mon 02 Jul 2012, 7:06 pm

I wonder if all the Welsh fans are a little ungrateful for what SCW as said about Wales and the WRU.

I get the feeling that every time any English man pays the Weslh or Wales team a compliment they do not like it. They seen to think that he is taking the Peeeeeeeee.

When it seems more likely that he is having a dig at England for not doing the same.

by alive555 Mon 02 Jul 2012, 7:11 pm

scw is a typical arrogant prize prat

Never had any time for he guy.

He got lucky he showed no special skills at all other than blind arrogance - For which is still one of the best of Britain

Gatland is a much more solid coach

by Luckless Pedestrian Mon 02 Jul 2012, 8:12 pm

alive555 wrote:He got lucky he showed no special skills at all other than blind arrogance

As a player? As a coach? Or both?

by anotherworldofpain Mon 02 Jul 2012, 8:16 pm

It is hard to question his management skills. He did a lot of good things.

As a coach I don't know because not even knowledge of ENG team environment.

He certainly lose a lot of the credibility during Lions tour 2005 but if the Britian and Ireland have the players to win then anyway is hard to know about. He get some bad luck with injury on that tour with Dallaglio and BOD and Wilkinson and others go out injury.

Sometimes needs a big personality in a big organisational like RFU to make a difference. In the end of a day I think he made more good than bad for a legacy.

by mowgli Mon 02 Jul 2012, 8:16 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:I wonder if all the Welsh fans are a little ungrateful for what SCW as said about Wales and the WRU.

I get the feeling that every time any English man pays the Weslh or Wales team a compliment they do not like it. They seen to think that he is taking the Peeeeeeeee.

When it seems more likely that he is having a dig at England for not doing the same.

I think that is why fans of various nationalities don't like him that he doesn't say what he means...he is passive aggressive and always has an angle, is an establishment figure and arch politico. Anyone who is so arrogant he thinks he can become a footie coach overnight and takes Campbell on a Lions tour seems fundamentally to have missed the point.

That said i totally respect his acheivements with English rugby, he dragged them out of the gaseous days of amateurism to complete success. he also is good friends with Alfie which i think says a lot about who he is, he clearly has perception issues

I wonder if he is angling to join the WRU set up?!!!!

by maestegmafia Tue 03 Jul 2012, 12:51 am

mowgli wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:I wonder if all the Welsh fans are a little ungrateful for what SCW as said about Wales and the WRU.

I get the feeling that every time any English man pays the Weslh or Wales team a compliment they do not like it. They seen to think that he is taking the Peeeeeeeee.

When it seems more likely that he is having a dig at England for not doing the same.

I think that is why fans of various nationalities don't like him that he doesn't say what he means...he is passive aggressive and always has an angle, is an establishment figure and arch politico. Anyone who is so arrogant he thinks he can become a footie coach overnight and takes Campbell on a Lions tour seems fundamentally to have missed the point.

That said i totally respect his acheivements with English rugby, he dragged them out of the gaseous days of amateurism to complete success. he also is good friends with Alfie which i think says a lot about who he is, he clearly has perception issues

I wonder if he is angling to join the WRU set up?!!!!

Too be fair what you have said is not very accurate

Clive Woodward took over after two successful regimes that put everything in place, they did the hard yards internationally, even the england captain martin Johnson quite verhmently stated so. "winning the RWC was 90% outstanding players and 10% good coaching and the correct environment, and im being generous to the coaches" Johnson.

Let's hope he stays away from the WRU. His admiration and his acknowledgement is all very kind, but his input is unwanted, more so unneeded.

by mowgli Tue 03 Jul 2012, 1:59 am

Well there you go measteg he had me convinced it was all him!

by gowales Tue 03 Jul 2012, 1:48 pm

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
Sir Clive Woodward wrote:"They have a highly experienced, settled administration and coaching team. Rob Howley, interim coach in Australia, proved they also have succession planning in hand."

That bit made me shudder.

I thought Howley was an exceptional player but -

because Gatland had a freakish accident & the next coach by default happens to be Howley = succession planning ? Not too sure about that.

Isn't obvious though that Gatland is grooming Howley as the next Wales coach when he leaves. Otherwise i'm pretty sure he would have signed a better attack coach when he started!

by maestegmafia Tue 03 Jul 2012, 4:58 pm

I thought Howley did a good job as caretaker. Not sure he is really all that worthy of blame.

We need someone to be groomed in to the position over four years. It might also be refreshing to see a home grown former player of notariety as coach rather than an established name.

Howley appeared to be playing to Gatlands tune on tour this year. He did well but he was under instructions.

by gowales Tue 03 Jul 2012, 5:06 pm

I agree meastag, i think he's been used as a scapegoat/excuse by a lot of supporters

by maestegmafia Tue 03 Jul 2012, 5:20 pm

I have always been a big believer in the coaches responsability not being prevolent on the pitch.

You can coach all you want as brilliantly or poorly as you might, and still the players are likely to do differently in the heat of the game.

by gowales Tue 03 Jul 2012, 5:22 pm

The only problem i have with Howley is that the Welsh backs haven't really shown anything since he's been in charge of them from 2008. It might be Gatland's game plan but i have reservations about him.

by Shifty Tue 03 Jul 2012, 6:01 pm

What Woodward basically did was invent the basic blue print of coaching in modern rugby union. Kicking coaches, defense coaches etc were not used before Clive invented the blue print.

Sadly Clive was a 1 trick pony really, everyone else copied his ideas and he had no new ones. He does analyse and organise very well though, so for him to look at what Wales are doing and assess it in a positive manner is a good thing.

by robbo277 Tue 03 Jul 2012, 7:06 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:His Sunday Times articles seems to me to be solely about making two points over and over again:

1. I am an elite gold medal winner. I get up in the morning, and everything I do is elite. I win at breakfast before surrounding myself with elite people before winning my way to lunch and eating my way to excellence.

2. The RFU are rubbish, and don't know what an elite winner I am.

He doesn't seem to mention the howlers in his coaching past, both with England and the Lions, nor his appointment as England coach (which if his own standards of "excellence" were applied to the search, he wouldn't have made a long list of 20 at the time).

I do recognise that he did well with England, notwithstanding a couple of notable failures and a forgiving RFU after the 1999 World Cup ("judge me on the World Cup), and he is an innovative thinker, but I find his articles a little tedious and self-congratulatory.

It may have been him back-tracking, but I'm sure I've read that he said "I will be judged on the World Cup".

by Taffineastbourne Tue 03 Jul 2012, 7:13 pm

After the shame of his Lions Tour I'd have thought SCW should keep schtum.I do not care what he thinks.He is an arrogant dishonest twerp.I remember what he said befoer he chose his chums for that Lions Tour.Clown.

by sugarNspikes Tue 03 Jul 2012, 7:15 pm

Taffineastbourne wrote:After the shame of his Lions Tour I'd have thought SCW should keep schtum.I do not care what he thinks.He is an arrogant dishonest twerp.I remember what he said befoer he chose his chums for that Lions Tour.Clown.

He speaks very highly of you.

by mowgli Tue 03 Jul 2012, 7:39 pm

Taffineastbourne wrote:After the shame of his Lions Tour I'd have thought SCW should keep schtum.I do not care what he thinks.He is an arrogant dishonest twerp.I remember what he said befoer he chose his chums for that Lions Tour.Clown.

Was it along the lines of

If i was picking the lions team today i would pick the Welsh team

I think SCW more than any other custodian of the Lions brought it close to disgrace in that he replaced the Lions ethos with his own egotistic idea of what the Lions should be and in the process made a right balls up of it.

by Barney McGrew did it Tue 03 Jul 2012, 8:05 pm

Was SCW dopey for leaving out too many of the Welsh GS team of 2005? Or rather perceptive in leaving out the Welsh 5th place ‘has-beens’ of 2006? Pretty sure he has claimed to be able to see the future.

by Shifty Tue 03 Jul 2012, 8:14 pm

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Was SCW dopey for leaving out too many of the Welsh GS team of 2005? Or rather perceptive in leaving out the Welsh 5th place ‘has-beens’ of 2006? Pretty sure he has claimed to be able to see the future.

He made the same mistake every coach makes, he was loyal to players who werent performing or too old to reach their heights they did several years earlier. Gatland almost did the same thing in the 2011 six nations, luckily he saw his folly and introduced a lot of new blood in time for the world cup.

The reason things went wrong in 2006 is because so many of our guys were still injured from the Lions tour the amount of long term injuries Welsh players sustained in positions we had no depth in was shocking.

by mystiroakey Tue 03 Jul 2012, 9:00 pm

so i take it you lot dont rate the most successfull NH coach then.

Time for a bit of respect and take the compliments you dozy numpties

by sugarNspikes Tue 03 Jul 2012, 9:07 pm

It seems you can get into bother for giving the Welsh either not enough or too much respect.

Very difficult to get it right as both the Aussies and SCW are discovering. Perhaps if the WRU could publish a list of 'approved' phrases we might safely navigate the dangerous waters of how to comment on these chaps.

by Taffineastbourne Tue 03 Jul 2012, 9:39 pm

mystiroakey wrote:so i take it you lot dont rate the most successfull NH coach then.

Time for a bit of respect and take the compliments you dozy numpties

Ever heard of Carwyn James?You can give yourself the adjectives....

by mystiroakey Tue 03 Jul 2012, 9:54 pm

sugarNspikes wrote:It seems you can get into bother for giving the Welsh either not enough or too much respect.

Very difficult to get it right as both the Aussies and SCW are discovering. Perhaps if the WRU could publish a list of 'approved' phrases we might safely navigate the dangerous waters of how to comment on these chaps.

lols

by majesticimperialman Tue 03 Jul 2012, 9:59 pm

mystiroakey wrote:so i take it you lot dont rate the most successfull NH coach then.

Time for a bit of respect and take the compliments you dozy numpties

Surely the most successfull coach that as ever coached a NH team. is Sir Clive Woodward.
After all he did take his team on to win the RUGBY WORLD CUP.

Warren Gatland although as coached Wales to win 3 Grand Slams. As never taken his Welsh team on to win a RUGBY WORLD CUP.

And if i am not mistaken Warren Gatland as been in charge of Wales longer the SCW was in charge of England.

by Taffineastbourne Tue 03 Jul 2012, 10:01 pm

sugarNspikes wrote:It seems you can get into bother for giving the Welsh either not enough or too much respect.

Very difficult to get it right as both the Aussies and SCW are discovering. Perhaps if the WRU could publish a list of 'approved' phrases we might safely navigate the dangerous waters of how to comment on these chaps.

If you are a proven liar whatever else you say becomes somewhat redundant.Is that too tricky to understand?Would not ask the fella the time of day.If his lips move he is not to be trusted..Simples.

by Taffineastbourne Tue 03 Jul 2012, 10:04 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:
mystiroakey wrote:so i take it you lot dont rate the most successfull NH coach then.

Time for a bit of respect and take the compliments you dozy numpties

Surely the most successfull coach that as ever coached a NH team. is Sir Clive Woodward.
After all he did take his team on to win the RUGBY WORLD CUP.

Warren Gatland although as coached Wales to win 3 Grand Slams. As never taken his Welsh team on to win a RUGBY WORLD CUP.

And if i am not mistaken Warren Gatland as been in charge of Wales longer the SCW was in charge of England.

Which British Lions coach won the only series against NZ?

by mystiroakey Tue 03 Jul 2012, 10:05 pm

Taff he is a proven winner . You need to listen up pal.

however if you think he is lying when saying what a top side wales are- maybe you are touching on something!

by Taffineastbourne Tue 03 Jul 2012, 10:08 pm

mystiroakey wrote:Taff he is a proven winner . You need to listen up pal.

however if you think he is lying when saying what a top side wales are- maybe you are touching on something!

Whatever he says is like the wind.It is gone and means nothing in an instant.He may like the sound of his own voice but for me he is on "mute" as it matters not one jot.

by mystiroakey Tue 03 Jul 2012, 10:11 pm

If it matters not a jot- what you doing on here dudey?

He is a legend, face facts. Take the compliment

by mowgli Tue 03 Jul 2012, 10:26 pm

Whilst nobody can argue with his results upto RWC 2003 (except jonners!) his achievements are slightly less legendary since then and he has had no successes of note. The Lions and Southampton are classic cases of how he overestimated his abillity.

by Taffineastbourne Tue 03 Jul 2012, 10:28 pm

mystiroakey wrote:If it matters not a jot- what you doing on here dudey?

He is a legend, face facts. Take the compliment

Sorry.I thought this was a forum for fans' response.My bad.SCW is what he is and he is right down with the Bankers and politicians in my estimation.Does it matter what he says?Nope.I would value my window cleaner's view more highly as he is much less likely to lie to me.

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