Haye... Heavyweight Champion of the World!!

First topic message reminder :

Haye was an outstanding cruiserweight champion but let’s remind ourselves of his foray into the heavyweight division.

Tomasz Bonin....a pole who knocked over tomato cans for a career.

Monte Barrett....a 37 year old journeyman who’d lost 3 of his last 6 going into the bout. Consequently, Barret, in his subsequent fight lost to Solis in 5 minutes (rather than the 5 rounds it took Haye).

Nicolai Valuev... perhaps the worst boxer in history to hold a title…EVER... at any weight!! He was truly appalling!! A freak of nature, utterly rubbish like a eunuch working as a gigalo. He was coming off a terrible win against a 46 yo ancient Evander Holyfield. It must also be noted that Valuev had lost on occasion, but got the decision due to him being a circus act who generated money. Haye won by retreating… I mean making him miss.

Then it was onto 38 year old Johnny Ruiz for "The Quiet Mans" retirement fight… Seven years early this man had become the first heavyweight champion in history to lose his title to a middleweight. That was bad but now he was old!

Then it was onto Audley Harrison….Really? Do I need to say anything?

After that farce he talked his way into a bout with Wlad and attempted to use the same tactics that he used against Valuev.... except he forgot that Wlad could fight a little bit...and he had a bad toe.

Now its Delboy, which is Hayes his first fight at heavy, against a live opponent, which he has a chance of winning.

And thats it for the Legacy of David Haye the former heavyweight champion of the world. Did i forget to mention he was a great cruiserweight champion?.....No, really, he was quite good!

Valuev became a champion in 2005 after beating Ruiz (I thought he lost).

This was after winning a gift decision against Larry Donald in a title eliminator. Before losing to Chagaev, Valuev succesfully defended his title against 3 opponents, none of whom were top 10 ranked and 2 of whom had already been beaten by Wlad.

After the Chagaev loss, Valuev only became a champion again because Chagaev was stripped of it. He again narrowly defeated Ruiz for the vacant title. His first defence of his 2nd title reign was against Holyfield (who was approaching 50 and coming off a uninspiring loss). Winning a disputable decision, Valuev would then lose to Haye.

The only 2 opponents that Valuev fought during his title reigns that were Ring magazine rated beat him.

How anyone can excuse the Klitschko's of ducking a boxer who's record is even more shoddy and questionable than Sven Ottke's is beyond me.

Yes, he held physical advantages over them but so did Hoffman, McCline, Johnson, Austin, Thompson etc.

And Wlad has huge power in his left hand, he just very rarely uses it.

Brilliant, thats Valuev summed up!

Rarely using it is the same as not having it as far as I'm concerned.

There's Monte Barret been knocked out again i see...

manos de piedra wrote:I wouldnt really agree with Haye in terms of opposition. He would happily fight bums if the money was right I think. Hence the Audley fight, and now Chisora - a joke who lost 3 fights in row and was supposedly well below Hayes radar. I think Haye just follows the money. Most of the guys he has been labelling bums for the last few years are better than anything on his record.

He was clearly robbed in one of those losses. I wouldn't use the official scoring in the helenius fight against him.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

TheMackemMawler wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

TheMackemMawler wrote:Valuev is not just the worst heavyweight champion in the world, he is the worst champion in history. .

If he was that bad why didn't Wlad unify the titles when his bro retired?

Not trying to big Haye's achievements up too much but, whilst Valuev was technically limited, he was titanic in stature and the dominant champ(s) of the time wanted no piece of him (yeh, yeh, DK was massaging him to Rocky's record...blah blah). And, whilst he lost (by a several round margin), to Wlad he still performed better than any other challenger in 5yrs+.

Good CW and average HW in a weak era.

yeah Wlad avoided Valuev, are you crazy? no one avoided valuev.

Why didn't Wlad fight him then? Why didn't he unify all the belts in his brothers absence?? Union's post explains why, and the usual DK guff is exactly that.

I doubt Wlad ducked him. More like DK put serious options or wouldn't allow K2 to have options on Valuev.

azania wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

TheMackemMawler wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

TheMackemMawler wrote:Valuev is not just the worst heavyweight champion in the world, he is the worst champion in history. .

If he was that bad why didn't Wlad unify the titles when his bro retired?

Not trying to big Haye's achievements up too much but, whilst Valuev was technically limited, he was titanic in stature and the dominant champ(s) of the time wanted no piece of him (yeh, yeh, DK was massaging him to Rocky's record...blah blah). And, whilst he lost (by a several round margin), to Wlad he still performed better than any other challenger in 5yrs+.

Good CW and average HW in a weak era.

yeah Wlad avoided Valuev, are you crazy? no one avoided valuev.

Why didn't Wlad fight him then? Why didn't he unify all the belts in his brothers absence?? Union's post explains why, and the usual DK guff is exactly that.

I doubt Wlad ducked him. More like DK put serious options or wouldn't allow K2 to have options on Valuev.

Yeh, probably went something like that.

TheMackemMawler wrote:There's Monte Barret been knocked out again i see...

Amazingly, in NZ that's been seen as a big win for Cameron, due to Barret holding a couple of decisions against the ghost of David Tua. On the same card a bad boy crciket player beat a tv presenter, and two female "celebrites" fought some sort of grudge match! Seriously boxing in the sourthern hemisphere is an absolute joke.

horizontalhero wrote:

TheMackemMawler wrote:There's Monte Barret been knocked out again i see...

Amazingly, in NZ that's been seen as a big win for Cameron, due to Barret holding a couple of decisions against the ghost of David Tua. On the same card a bad boy crciket player beat a tv presenter, and two female "celebrites" fought some sort of grudge match! Seriously boxing in the sourthern hemisphere is an absolute joke.

Sounds like fun. Perhaps they should throw in a little female mud wrestling on PPV.

alma wrote:He wasn't actually a great cruiserweight champion, I'm not sure where the myth comes from. He only had two world title fights at the weight, was down in one and in the other beat a glorified hod carrier who wouldn't even have won a European title at any other weight.

alma wrote:He wasn't actually a great cruiserweight champion, I'm not sure where the myth comes from. He only had two world title fights at the weight, was down in one and in the other beat a glorified hod carrier who wouldn't even have won a European title at any other weight.

He was outjabbed by the "hod carrier" as well.

alma wrote:

azania wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:I wouldnt really agree with Haye in terms of opposition. He would happily fight bums if the money was right I think. Hence the Audley fight, and now Chisora - a joke who lost 3 fights in row and was supposedly well below Hayes radar. I think Haye just follows the money. Most of the guys he has been labelling bums for the last few years are better than anything on his record.

He was clearly robbed in one of those losses. I wouldn't use the official scoring in the helenius fight against him.

bit harsh saying del boy is a joke. The only bad loss really is fury and he was a stone overweight. By all accounts he was robbed against helenius and he was credible against vitali

Hayes words not mine!

Pus Hellenius was crippled for that fight. badly.

hayes heavyweight campaign is what it is and their can be no mistakes about what hes done as its all been done fully in the spotlight. he wanted the big fight agaist wlad and he wasnt going to risk it by taking on challenges, the likes of povetkin, arreola and adamek. he knew there was a chance he could lose those fights so stuck to the ones he could guarantee winning in order to preserve his best of the rest tag he had talked himself into getting. you cant blame him really, so many boxers fighting similar paths at all the weights, including kell brook.

the only thing that annoys me with haye is the now accepted view that he was an all time great cruiser!! even some of his detractors say it. a close fight agaist mormeck and knocking out the invincible enzo does not make an all time great cruiser. i dont blame him for moving up and chasing wlad, but lets not pretend he moved up after cleaning up the cruiser division. there was plenty of tough fights at cruiser and he took 1 of them.

Huck would of have been a good matchup I think.

For those that havn't read the first page, I thought I would say he was Great to give the article a bit of balance..( or otherwise risk being branded a Haye hater). If I was branded a Haye hater then the context of the article would be lost.

The last line sums up my true thoughts.... He was quite good.

alma wrote:

OasisBFC wrote:haye's tactics for valuev werent pleasing to the eye, but they were spot on.
boxing isnt about getting your head down and throwing wild shots at each other in a telephone both. its about hitting and not being hit. haye executed that beautifully over 12 rounds after injuring his right hand pretty early in the fight.

bit over the top. Haye only just got the result, I had him up by one or two rounds in a turgid fight, against a man many on here regard as the worst heavyweight in 80 years. The only great achievement in my mind was getting a points win in Germany!

as crap as valuev is/was, no one will ever look good beating him due to his crazy size. he was outweighed by 5 stone and about a foot in height. what else could he do? knock him out? thats not gonna happen, ever. he made valuev miss and got the win.

valuev beats a LOT of heavyweights in history, the only reasosn people call him the worst is because they assume he should be better than he is because of his size.

haye was guaranteed the points win over valuev. he just had to stay out of harms way for 12 rounds, hence the way he fought. he had signed part of his earning rights over to sauerland and they knew they would make more off him than they were off valuev, who wasnt a big draw in germany or russia

Lance wrote:haye was guaranteed the points win over valuev. he just had to stay out of harms way for 12 rounds, hence the way he fought. he had signed part of his earning rights over to sauerland and they knew they would make more off him than they were off valuev, who wasnt a big draw in germany or russia

true or not, he got the nod because he deserved to, not because of his rights agreement.

manos de piedra wrote:Pus Hellenius was crippled for that fight. badly.

Doesn't make it less of a robbery. Likewise I don't put much stock in Chisora coming in like a beached whale against Fury. Fury won fair and square. Not his fault Chisora came in out of shape. Likewise its not chisora's fault Helenuis came in injured.

Lance wrote:hayes heavyweight campaign is what it is and their can be no mistakes about what hes done as its all been done fully in the spotlight. he wanted the big fight agaist wlad and he wasnt going to risk it by taking on challenges, the likes of povetkin, arreola and adamek. he knew there was a chance he could lose those fights so stuck to the ones he could guarantee winning in order to preserve his best of the rest tag he had talked himself into getting. you cant blame him really, so many boxers fighting similar paths at all the weights, including kell brook.

the only thing that annoys me with haye is the now accepted view that he was an all time great cruiser!! even some of his detractors say it. a close fight agaist mormeck and knocking out the invincible enzo does not make an all time great cruiser. i dont blame him for moving up and chasing wlad, but lets not pretend he moved up after cleaning up the cruiser division. there was plenty of tough fights at cruiser and he took 1 of them.

I doubt he could make the cruiser division. He was complaining for eons of problems making weight. He had no choice but to move up.

horizontalhero wrote:

TheMackemMawler wrote:There's Monte Barret been knocked out again i see...

Amazingly, in NZ that's been seen as a big win for Cameron, due to Barret holding a couple of decisions against the ghost of David Tua. On the same card a bad boy crciket player beat a tv presenter, and two female "celebrites" fought some sort of grudge match! Seriously boxing in the sourthern hemisphere is an absolute joke.

Whereas we have Tyson Fury!

Honestly, I'd take the Kiwi style nonsense.

By the way, did the bad boy cricket player get to use his bat? I find the idea of Flintoff cutting down Vernon Kay with a cricket bat rather pleasing.

It gets worse- ther NZ press are now reporting that Cameron is "one punch away" from a world title shot against Wlad. Apparently Barrett was rated no.12 in the WBO rankings , and this victory should see Cameron rise into the top ten. This is the same Cameron that barely made it inot the second round against Tua, a couple of years ago. He since had a fight at cruiser weight, and then one or two against HW nobodies.

Sady Jessie Ryder (the cricketer) didn't get to use his bat- didn't need to as it happened- he kicked the Poopie of the guy.

School Project wrote:

tunes666 wrote:Some fair points but also a little harsh..
Then Audley, now we can mock and laugh at Audley for his short comings, but who has ever blasted him out of there like and over powered him like that before? No one.

I'm pretty sure he was decked in a savage manner against Sprott first time around...

With the difference being that Audley was winning the fight up till that point and it was a lucky punch.
Haye toyed with Audley for two rounds them smashed him to bits.

You can assess Hays competition all you like, but he has performed against them better than other boxers have, including WK... meaning he is better than most... Even though a nob.

tunes666 wrote:

You can assess Hays competition all you like, but he has performed against them better than other boxers have, including WK... meaning he is better than most... Even though a nob.

How many common heavyweight opponents does he have with Wlad, to my reckoning it is only one in Barrett and given the fights were roughly eight years it would seem a stretch to say Haye has performed better than Wlad against them.

my view is we still don't really know how good haye actually is. He clearly has talent... quick hands for a heavy and can punch. But, as he hasn't fought any live heavies outside wlad... though the dearth of 'live' opponents doesn't make that easy... its tough to assess him really. It's hard to judge him as a fighter, so we're left to judge him as self publicist, which he's good at, and as human being, which he's not so good at.

rowley wrote:

tunes666 wrote:

You can assess Hays competition all you like, but he has performed against them better than other boxers have, including WK... meaning he is better than most... Even though a nob.

How many common heavyweight opponents does he have with Wlad, to my reckoning it is only one in Barrett and given the fights were roughly eight years it would seem a stretch to say Haye has performed better than Wlad against them.

I think he means he performed better against his opposition (incl WK) than other boxers have, i.e. his performance against WK was better than many, if not most, other WK opponents who just get blasted out of there.

Could be wrong tho.

A few have criticised Haye for his safety first approach (ie against the two biggest men he'd ever faced) and yet his relatively small size means that's the only approached he could adopt if he was to suceed. However, when we look at Wlad and his physical attributes, surely he should be given a little more stick for also adopting a safety first approach to the game.

There's been far too many of Wlad's opponents who've gone the distance when they should have been (to quote a poster above) "blasted out of there". It's a criticism that's been levelled many times at Lewis and he gets marked down for it so I'm surprised some people give Wlad an easy ride.

fair point dave. wlad was safety first in the haye fight too...i think he was a little nervous of haye... he may have learnt how to protect his chin, but i don't imagine he's ever forgotten why he had to learn that.

He had a game plan to avoid the big right, and it was enough. People seem to forget that although it was an 'easy' points win, it was almost a no score draw, wlad barely landed either and won most of the rounds because he was the 'aggressor'. In reality he came forward behind the jab without commiting himself, and haye was hoping he'd commit himself and leave himself open. Haye didn't have a plan b, and wlad didn't need one. The result was a terrible fight.

I've started ignoring things that Lance says - so you're saying that the Haye/Valuev fight was a fix?

You might not like Haye, but he unified the Cruiserweight division, had some cracking fights and did very well. There are only one or two cruisers I would place above him (obvious being Holyfield, the other is up for debate)

He's far from the terrible boxer you're trying to paint him as. Please, some objectivity.

For the record, I don't like Haye either, but lets not become childish in our review of his career at Cruiserweight. He's done alright at Heavyweight. There are what...3/4 fights he could have taken rather than the ones he has, but for the most part he's just followed a path that he's seen as right. Took down the easiest champion in Valuev - defended against a mandatory, chose a very interesting all british heavyweight match and then stepped into fight the best of the best heavyweights.

Can't really fault that.

jab, i was thinking that was a serious post with some reasonable comments until i read 'chose a very interesting all british heavyweight match'

milkyboy wrote:jab, i was thinking that was a serious post with some reasonable comments until i read 'chose a very interesting all british heavyweight match'

Well to be honest, we didn't all expect it to be as rubbish as it was did we? It was interesting, we hadn't had a heavyweight title match for some time between 2 Brits - Audley was already a household name (for being a bit rubbish and talking too much) and Haye was all new shiny Champion ready to step in with Wlad/Vitali

It was a filler, but it had....sentimentality about it.

JabMachineMK2 wrote:I've started ignoring things that Lance says - so you're saying that the Haye/Valuev fight was a fix?

You might not like Haye, but he unified the Cruiserweight division, had some cracking fights and did very well. There are only one or two cruisers I would place above him (obvious being Holyfield, the other is up for debate)

He's far from the terrible boxer you're trying to paint him as. Please, some objectivity.

For the record, I don't like Haye either, but lets not become childish in our review of his career at Cruiserweight. He's done alright at Heavyweight. There are what...3/4 fights he could have taken rather than the ones he has, but for the most part he's just followed a path that he's seen as right. Took down the easiest champion in Valuev - defended against a mandatory, chose a very interesting all british heavyweight match and then stepped into fight the best of the best heavyweights.

Can't really fault that.

is that because i made fun of your sparring partners mate?

but seriously, i dont consider haye a terrible boxer at all, i think hes talented. but theres a big bridge between wlad and ruiz and barrett. we cant say with any certainty hes better than povetkin or solis etc. his cruiserweight career was succesful up until he moved up, but i hear a lot of exaggerations trying to claim he cleaned the division up, when this is clearly not true. and would it really surprise you that much tot hink haye cut a deal with sauerland and the wba to earn them more money out of thier belt? i could be wrong of course, but its certainly not far fetched

He had two world title fights at cruiser, one of which was against Enzo Maccarinelli.

He unified the WBC / WBA / WBO titles, which is not the same as unifying the division.

Union Cane wrote:He had two world title fights at cruiser, one of which was against Enzo Maccarinelli.

He unified the WBC / WBA / WBO titles, which is not the same as unifying the division.

Edit : He had three world title fights, the Thompson loss was for the IBO.

Its far fetched mate - Valuev was very marketable - size etc. Utter tripe boxer but still hard to beat. If you're right and thats how Sauerland operate then they would have given the belt to Holyfield. American Heavyweight Champion and Legend? Much more marketable.

He did clean up the Cruiserweight division (which as usual was a little devoid of talent) by unifying the titles. He took on the two biggest names, one in their own back yard. He went through every name in the division, although all at home - almost every nationality. He wasn't fighting tin cans.

Like I've said I don't like him but I can't look at his career with the same derision you seem to be able to.

JabMachineMK2 wrote:Its far fetched mate - Valuev was very marketable - size etc. Utter tripe boxer but still hard to beat. If you're right and thats how Sauerland operate then they would have given the belt to Holyfield. American Heavyweight Champion and Legend? Much more marketable.

He did clean up the Cruiserweight division (which as usual was a little devoid of talent) by unifying the titles. He took on the two biggest names, one in their own back yard. He went through every name in the division, although all at home - almost every nationality. He wasn't fighting tin cans.

Like I've said I don't like him but I can't look at his career with the same derision you seem to be able to.

i like hayes career, hes been very shrewd. 30 years old two weight champion, never been hurt. if he had gone out fighting against wlad he would have a lot more respect.
valuev made poor money, i spent a lot of time in germany, and he was not very poluar there. he sold few tickets, and only fought in germany because he was even less popular in russia. i think about 5,000 is the most tickets valuev has sold. and come on, holyfield was not marketable, and besides he never gave options to sauerland so it wouldnt have helped them if he was.
my problem with his cruiserweight record is exactly the sort of comment you just gave. he did not fight the 2 biggest names in the division, and certainly not the 2 best fighters

DAVE667 wrote:A few have criticised Haye for his safety first approach (ie against the two biggest men he'd ever faced) and yet his relatively small size means that's the only approached he could adopt if he was to suceed. However, when we look at Wlad and his physical attributes, surely he should be given a little more stick for also adopting a safety first approach to the game.

There's been far too many of Wlad's opponents who've gone the distance when they should have been (to quote a poster above) "blasted out of there". It's a criticism that's been levelled many times at Lewis and he gets marked down for it so I'm surprised some people give Wlad an easy ride.

Really? I think its only 3 out of about 20 fights in the last decade or so. Not many fighters have gone the distance with him.

Lance wrote:

JabMachineMK2 wrote:Its far fetched mate - Valuev was very marketable - size etc. Utter tripe boxer but still hard to beat. If you're right and thats how Sauerland operate then they would have given the belt to Holyfield. American Heavyweight Champion and Legend? Much more marketable.

He did clean up the Cruiserweight division (which as usual was a little devoid of talent) by unifying the titles. He took on the two biggest names, one in their own back yard. He went through every name in the division, although all at home - almost every nationality. He wasn't fighting tin cans.

Like I've said I don't like him but I can't look at his career with the same derision you seem to be able to.

i like hayes career, hes been very shrewd. 30 years old two weight champion, never been hurt. if he had gone out fighting against wlad he would have a lot more respect.
valuev made poor money, i spent a lot of time in germany, and he was not very poluar there. he sold few tickets, and only fought in germany because he was even less popular in russia. i think about 5,000 is the most tickets valuev has sold. and come on, holyfield was not marketable, and besides he never gave options to sauerland so it wouldnt have helped them if he was.
my problem with his cruiserweight record is exactly the sort of comment you just gave. he did not fight the 2 biggest names in the division, and certainly not the 2 best fighters

Mormeck was a unified world champion and the top ranked cruiserweight when Haye fought him so its hard to see who was a more qualified opponent at the time for Haye.

Lance wrote:

JabMachineMK2 wrote:Its far fetched mate - Valuev was very marketable - size etc. Utter tripe boxer but still hard to beat. If you're right and thats how Sauerland operate then they would have given the belt to Holyfield. American Heavyweight Champion and Legend? Much more marketable.

He did clean up the Cruiserweight division (which as usual was a little devoid of talent) by unifying the titles. He took on the two biggest names, one in their own back yard. He went through every name in the division, although all at home - almost every nationality. He wasn't fighting tin cans.

Like I've said I don't like him but I can't look at his career with the same derision you seem to be able to.

i like hayes career, hes been very shrewd. 30 years old two weight champion, never been hurt. if he had gone out fighting against wlad he would have a lot more respect.
valuev made poor money, i spent a lot of time in germany, and he was not very poluar there. he sold few tickets, and only fought in germany because he was even less popular in russia. i think about 5,000 is the most tickets valuev has sold. and come on, holyfield was not marketable, and besides he never gave options to sauerland so it wouldnt have helped them if he was.
my problem with his cruiserweight record is exactly the sort of comment you just gave. he did not fight the 2 biggest names in the division, and certainly not the 2 best fighters

Excuse the ignorance, but who did he miss out? I thought Mormeck was considered the #1 in the division?

mormeck was a great win, ive always said so. but to say enzo was the next best guy is a joke. he didnt beat the top 2 cruisers. cunningham was the ibf champion at the time. adamek and braithwaite also held belts during hayes cruiser weight reign and huck was a top contender already. i dont blame haye for moving up to pursue wlad, he did the right thing for his career. i just dont see where this haye cleaned up the cruiser division comes from

Lance wrote:i just dont see where this haye cleaned up the cruiser division comes from

The fact that he had the WBA, WBC, WBO and the Ring belts

If Haye held 3 of the four belts then it's impossible for three other men to hold major titles as well.

Haye's opposition takes quite a thrashing on here. Because his wins are over less than great fighters and he failed against the best.

He also suffers in comparison because the Klistchkos have beaten loads of "live" opposition at heavyweight plus always beat the very best. Hence why they get championed.

Well, if you ignore the only great fighter either of them ever faced beat Vitali. Other than he they also have losses to Byrd, Sanders, Purrity and Lamont somebody. They make up for it with their long lists of glorious W's over real live oppositon.