(for Old-timers and Tyson fans alike!)JOHN L SULLIVAN- The original "Baddest Man on the Planet"

EVENING ALL,

I say that John L Sullivan,or Sully, was the original baddest man on the planet because he started a lineage of a type of fighter that went from him to Jack Dempsey,through to Iron Mike a century later.
Although he was known to fight bare-knuckle he actually prefered to use gloves,but even so, when he fought, "Jaws were broken and faces bashed with abandon".Not counting his unofficial fights, as a champion he was unbeaten for ten years, 1881 to 1892, his record was 38 wins, one draw one loss, knockout percentage 76%, with a knockout streak of 27 fights.He lost to a much younger hungrier opponent in Jim Corbett.

WE often talk about comparing records, (and I believe JLS's stands better than Tyson's),old v new( I put him firmly in my top ten ATG); even though their were much more proficient boxers since( with Jeffries perhaps ushering a new era ,his lineage I would say runs via Marciano to Frazier),on equal PEAK terms, modern Queensbury rules, I still give Sully the nod against Mike and Wlad ,for definite.He was a threshing machine that never gave up, a natural fighting machine that Tyson fans would recognise,except he had intestinal fortitude as well (perhaps those modern shakes prevent proper immunisation?!) that would put our heavyweights to shame.
Now for some questions for you lot who are reading this from the old people's home, with your Horlicks/Bovril.
1. Do YOU think that a realistic case really can be made for a top ten slot??
2.Who would have won, he or Peter Jackson had Jackson and not Corbett received a title shot?
3.Who would have won in their respective primes?
4.How would he have fared against Marciano and Jeffries, over fifteen three minute rounds?
Cheers.

Brilliant article, Andy, superb nod to one of the most important and influential figures in the history and development of the sport. I take my hat off to you.

As you alluded to, there's still a great element of big John L which still exists in the sport today. People call Dempsey a forerunner for Tyson, but as you rightly say, Sullivan was a forerunner for Dempsey. He was also a very, very entertaining and interesting character - definitely not without his faults, but as quotable as they come.

It's interesting that such a savage fighter (particularly one of that era) would prefer fightig with the gloves, particularly as Sullivan wasn't one to do anything by halves. If he wanted to cause damage, he wouldn't let anything get in the way. As Gilbert Odd wrote, "there was nothing cerebral or slick about him, but his attraction was that he could fight, and he loved to do so."

Ultimately, though, I think the switch over to the gloved era came a little too late for him. Had he peaked fifteen years later than he did, he'd probably be an absolute no-brainer for most people's top ten Heavyweight lists. But by the time he took on Corbett he was getting on in years, was deep in to his battle with the demon drink (hence why he scaled 212 lb for the fight, a fair bit more than his best fighting weight by all accounts) and, on top of that, was perhaps mellowing a bit - when asked about the differences between the bare knuckle sport he'd dominated and the new code of boxing under the Marquees of Queensberry rules, he said "fighting under the new rules before gentlemen is a pleasure."

If we're going purely on the gloved era and current rules, Sullivan isn't a top ten candidate. However, if we go across the spectrum, his record is comparable with anyone's. Depending on sources, he defended the bare knuckle title anywhere between twenty-five and thirty-nine times I believe, which hasn't been beaten regardless of era, code or opposition.

Going on the evidence at hand, Jackson may well have beaten him had it been him, rather than Corbett, who found himself opposite Sullivan in 1892. As I said before, the Sullivan fighting machine was winding down by that stage, and Jackson was in the form of his life having just beaten Slavin. Prime for prime though, and it's anyone's fight in all probability. As I said, Sullivan was not without fault as a character, and his drawing of the colour bar is a testament to that, sadly.

Bouts with Marciano and Jeffries aren't easy to call, as Rocky and Jeff are two of the few Heavyweight across history who had stamina even remotely comparable to Sullivan's. Playing it safe, I suppose the easiest way would be that Marciano and Jeffries get knocked out if they take on Sullivan under London Prize Ring rules, but perhaps go favourite (particularly Jeffries) if it goes ahead post-1892.

Sorry to drag on, but the article did throw up a lot of points for discussion. Good work, mate.

No, thank you Chris.. for contributing.I firmly believe that Sullivan should be better acknowledged today,as you can no doubt tell.I am no expert on him by any means, but it seems that his peak was between 1881-1883, before the demon drink took hold.
You've no doubt seen the footage of the handshake with Corbett-I read that Sully was convinced that it was the booze that beat him, and not Corbett,and was desperate for a rematch-which of course he never got.So he never fully made up with the (ahem) Gentleman.
A Marciano match-up...well seems to me one of the most crazy thoughts ever...imagine fireworks there.

Fabulous article, andy.

Have been trolling through a lot of the old archives lately to catch up on John L. Sadly, the newspaper stuff I have doesn't cover his actual fights in much detail - sports journalism was in its infancy until Corbett took his title - but there's a whole lot from the mid 1890s until his death concerning the man himself.

Bit of trivia. He was the FIRST to congratulate Johnson after the Jeffries fight, and wrote a warm tribute to Johnson for the New York Times the day following the fight, which I have on my hard drive.

Very interesting, and complicated, character.

Have you guys read his auto? Can try and dig it out later if wanted.

Scottrf wrote:Have you guys read his auto? Can try and dig it out later if wanted.

I certainly haven't, Scott. That, I should imagine, is fascinating.

Lovely article for an oft overlooked fighter who was genuinely the first mega star of the sport. Whilst I am not going to try and re-write history and suggest he was a stylist as obviously he wasn't he was seen in his day as somewhat better technically than modern reports often portray him. This is a direct quote from a newspaper of the day

He is lithe as a panther, and his rush is like an avalanche. His fists flash through the air like bolts of lightning, and his every movement is the perfection of grace.

A quote which hardly bespeaks a guy devoid of skill. Think where he perhaps struggles is his era was not great and unfortunately many of his bigger fights such as Kilrain and Ryan were bareknuckle affairs whihc obviously makes comparisons across eras a virtual impossibility.

As for the Jackson fight you would probably have to lean towards Jackson if only because the fight became viable when Sully was at the tail end of his career and was coming back from a life threatening illness, which coupled with Sully's lifestyle which made Hatton look like a monk would probably have to give the edge to the younger Jackson but is not exaggerating to say that Sully was seen as unbeatable in a way few fighters can claim during his prime.

What is interesting is Sully made money in exhibitions offering fighters $1000 if they could survive four rounds with him and whilst this obviously attracted it's share of have a go hardmen it also attracted some proper fighters and the greatest compliment you can pay Sully is in countless exhibitions he only paid out a couple of times and this was normally when people resorted to underhand tactics to secure the payout.

cheers guys, excuse my Corbett/Jeffries @typo@ !

Credit to Robert Snell for the link:

http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/4/24/2416390/Sullivan-autobiography-2.pdf

Scottrf wrote:Credit to Robert Snell for the link:

http://www.fileden.com/files/2009/4/24/2416390/Sullivan-autobiography-2.pdf

Thanks, Scott.

Will read this with deep interest.

Excellent Scott, thanks very much.

Welcome aboard, alma.

In the vague hope he will put me on commission for any future books if anyone has not read Pollack's book on Sullivan it is like all his books excellent and exhaustive in its depth and detail. Certainly gives a different impression of the fighter than we often hold, goes a long way to debunking the myth of Sully as nothing but a crude powerhouse

Definitely be picking these books up over time Rowley, was very impressed with the James Jefferies one, very well put toghether and a very sturdy book. A bit pricey but for good reason.

If for no other reason than to keep a thread about Sully near the top of the page will echo windy's sentiments and welcome you aboard

Good job Rowley couldn't view this at work and had forgot about it, cheers for the link again scott

Just been reading Sully's autobiography on the above link, anyone who hasn't seen it, I strongly advise them to!Thanks Scott

Cracking article Andy (apolgies for late reply - been making arrangements for my first Wedding anniversary this weekend).

As you may or may not know, I have a soft spot for Jackson (no, really) and as alluded to earlier, one would have to favour Jackson due the comparative stages of their careers (much like Jackson being felled by Jeffries at the tail end of his own career).

Whilst the fight with Corbett is memorable for lasting 61 rounds, one has to wonder what the outcome would have been had Jackson been fully fit. Reports are that he was thrown from a horse and carriage the week prior to the fight and suffered a badly sprained ankle which restricted his mobility. Jackson was reported as saying he felt he would have won the fight comfortably had he not be hampered by this injury.

Who knows, perhaps then the fight with Corbett has a different outcome and maybe there's enough clamour for Jackson to get a shot at Sully, who I think he probably beats, and the face of HW boxing is altered for all time.

Dave, your input in the subject of Jackson is a genuine treasure, much in the manner that jeff's lifting of the lid on Burley is.

Keep it coming. It's wonderful stuff and a great insight into an unsung legend.

HumanWindmill wrote:Dave, your input in the subject of Jackson is a genuine treasure, much in the manner that jeff's lifting of the lid on Burley is.

Keep it coming. It's wonderful stuff and a great insight into an unsung legend.

Cheers Windy, I'm trying to keep it just the right side of "Uncontrollable Nuthugging" (something Jeff clearly struggles with!!!!!!!)

Embrace your nuthuggery Dave it's the way forward, you only have to look at the warmth and esteem D4 is held in to realise this is the case.

rowley wrote:Embrace your nuthuggery Dave it's the way forward, you only have to look at the warmth and esteem D4 is held in to realise this is the case.

Now you put it like that, I shall dispense with all thought of restraint and let the worrying obsession commence!

"Peter Jackson was a great swimmer in his youth...probably better than anyone whose ever lived including Mark "diet" Sprite who was probably on drugs. I'll do a poll and see if everyone agrees with me then slate them when they don't"

"Peter Jackson was a great actor in his youth...probably better than anyone whose ever lived including Lawrence "of Arabia" Olivier who was probably on drugs. I'll do a poll and see if everyone agrees with me then slate them when they don't"

Peter Jackson was a great sailor in his youth...probabaly better than anyone whose ever lived including Lord "Half" Nelson who was probably on drugs. I'll do a poll and see if everyone agrees with methen slate them when they don't"

Dave, big thanks for the input but in future keep it caustic, mate at least with me...trying to stop my head swelling as it is....(being called an ognorant f*cker on the limerick page is a healthy antedote, however).
Whilst looking for JLS interviews in search engines, i notice he gave one to a great character called Nellie Bly.She asks him,Surely you train? And his reply is, oh yes, it is dreadful...I run for one and a half mile. in training.I"d much rather be fighting instead!--Imagine how good he'd be with the protein drinks!

I think that's the same woman who interviewed him in the 'The Greatest Boxing Stories Ever Told' book.