Nobody Knows How To Beat Nadal

Of course Nadal can get beaten as Rosol proved. Federer's laughed afterwoods because it was such a freak performance but unfortunately for other players not something that could be repeated. Funny Federer is still probably laughing now... Of course everyone thought that Djokovic had solved the problem but after his three consecutive final losses to Nadal people are getting a little worried and quite frankly desperate again. Courier demonstrates this by revealing his master plan to get a win over Nadal in the Davis Cup.

One of Nadal’s habits is that he will not get off his chair until his opponent does so.

"I’ve never see anyone do that to him. He is always the last off the bench,” Courier said at Stanford's Bank of the West Classic, where he defeated Michael Chang in an exhibition. "I have nothing but respect for Rafa; I love the way he plays, I love the way handles his business, but if I'm coaching against him. I’m not letting my player get up until he gets up. It’s as simple as that. He’s got to know that this is not his court, it’s our court. Those are tactics.”

http://www.tennis.com/articles/templates/news.aspx?articleid=18768&zoneid=25

Ha ha ha! I'm sure Nadal is trembling in fear at the thought of having to face such strong opposition. Or maybe he's just thinking of a new display for his water bottles. That always appears to make his opponents so angry, distracted, puzzled and curious that they lose concentration completely as they try to decide if they have the guts to knock them over and try and imagine what would happen if they did....

Courier is so scared at the prospect of having to face Nadal that he hasn't realised that his fear might be imaginary. Nadal has no plans at the moment to play in the Davis Cup. But you never no he might change his mind and that would be scary...

Of course the fear of facing Nadal is only experienced by those that have to share a tennis court with him. And the desperate tactics are only plotted by those that have to coach those that have to share a tennis court.

Safe behind a computer screen anyone could beat that defensive lucky moonballer...

I think it rather defeats the object for Courier to publicise his team's match tactics

Not a particularly 'cunning plan'!!!!

Actually I think Rafa is easily rattled when a player indulges in that behaviour. Against Rosol he was complaining about Rosol jumping around on return, evidence of how little it takes if a player chooses to fight fire with fire.

He's simply been blessed with opponents who don't get into that.

I'm with Courier on ths; if I were coaching a rival I'd make sure they play all Rafas games, and more. Make HIM wait, mess about on return, disrupt his routines, etc.

change title to: Nobody Knows How To Cheat Like Nadal

Ha ha! Josiah Maiestes. If only other players just sat down a little longer and arranged their water bottles into pretty patterns then they too could be multi slam winning all time greats.

bogbrush. From your posts you give the impression that you have a good understanding of the game. And yet you like Courier can only suggest to Nadals opponents that sitting down a little more might help them get the win? That so far Nadal has been lucky that his opponents haven't simply relaxed in the chair a little longer otherwise his vicious top spin forehand would have been left ineffective.

I agree with bogbrush. I would advise exactly the same. I don't think there's anything wrong with Rafa's behaviour, gamesmanship is part of the game and any mental edge that can be gained is fine by me

But Rafa's opponents do seem to just accept that the game is paced on his terms. Obviously, that wouldn't be the only tactical preparation, I'm pretty sure BB was just saying that would be a small part of it.

Djokovic and Rosol do!

hawkeye wrote:Ha ha! Josiah Maiestes. If only other players just sat down a little longer and arranged their water bottles into pretty patterns then they too could be multi slam winning all time greats.

bogbrush. From your posts you give the impression that you have a good understanding of the game. And yet you like Courier can only suggest to Nadals opponents that sitting down a little more might help them get the win? That so far Nadal has been lucky that his opponents haven't simply relaxed in the chair a little longer otherwise his vicious top spin forehand would have been left ineffective.

Your creating a false weak argument - a strawman - to beat. Nobody said that sitting down will beat him, but that he can be as vulnerable to being messed about as my. Indeed, if we really are to believe the OCD explanation for his rituals, he should be especially vulnerable to being put off.

Quickly add two bottles of Vodka (disguised as Evian bottles) and mix them around
He won't know which is which

You kind of feel if Courier is clutching at Rafa-Rattling straws then his team isnt up to much. Isner...Querrery....etc....hmmm, perhaps they arent up to much! Its hardly the Courier-Sampras-Agassi-Roddick of old is it...USTA has kind of gone down the tubes in recent years.

That said I think Ryan Harrison is a future star of the game...he's quietly going about his business but is turning into quite a good player IMO.

Courier was just playing with yall, hawkeye took the bait as per. Nadal goes in his shell a bit when you start to "Vamos" back at him.

"Nobody Knows How To Beat Nadal"

Apart from Lukas Rosol.

"Nobody Knows How To Beat Lukas Rosol"

Apart from Philip Kohlschreiber.

bogbrush. Well if "we" really are to believe that Rafa is so mentally weak that someone sitting on a chair and waiting for him to get up would put him off to such an extent that he would lose... then yes this would be a good tactic. Even if we were to believe all that (Pftt!) it still shows the lack of confidence in the ability to beat him with backhands and forehands.

Who knows what Nadal thinks about these tactics but they do look like desperation therefore he would have every right to feel quite flattered... Lydian. "Clutching at Rafa-rattling straws" Ha ha!

Thats another exaggeration, though looking at his mental turmoil over Rosol jumping on the baseine I may rethink. He certainly seemed easily driven into a lather then. Maybe Courier has seen something encouraging.

I don't think that Rosol beat Nadal by jumping about on the baseline...

But then if Rosal's technique was viable it he would be the multi slam winning all time great and not Nadal. Courier knows this that's why he's been reduced to desperation.

It Must Be Love. Ha ha! That might work to but unfortunately for Nadal's opponents it's against the rules. So is tying his shoelaces together or making him play with his right hand... Now that I think about it even if making him play with his right hand were allowed it probably wouldn't do any good...

It says a lot that only Nadal is on the recieving end of such desperate tactical plots. Poor Roger everyone thinks they can beat him by simply hitting to the backhand. I bet he's a bit jealous...

I don't know whether you miss the point deliberately or by accident. I suspect you've opened a debate that you wish you hadn't, and have to fall back to misrepresenting.

You mocked Courier for suggesting Nadal can be wound up. He can.

bogbrush. I didn't mock Courier. It's tough for his team to have to face Nadal. And of course everyone can be wound up but to have to resort to this as a tactic only shows the strength of Nadal and how those that have to face him are a little (or maybe more than a little) desperate. It is admitting that they are at a loss about how to beat him with backhands and forehands.

Anyway I didn't open this debate it's a perpetual one. Maybe I just see it from a different angle.

It's because of the perception that Rafa indulges in it himself.

So trying to delay Nadal and play the match at you pace and not his is desperate... Erm, that's what Nadal does every single match he plays!

I wouldn't describe Nadal's tactics as desperate, so how can using those same tactics against him be desperate? That doesn't make sense.

Are people taking this seriously? lol

Courier is only joking on ITV he said he would personally go there and try to knock Nadal's water bottles- anyway Nadal is not even playing Davis Cup.

Danny_1982 wrote:So trying to delay Nadal and play the match at you pace and not his is desperate... Erm, that's what Nadal does every single match he plays!

I wouldn't describe Nadal's tactics as desperate, so how can using those same tactics against him be desperate? That doesn't make sense.

Do you believe that Nadal sits plotting and thinks I know how I can beat Federer and Djokovic I will sit too long on the bench? In that case do you think Federer and Djokovic are shaking in their tennis shoes at the prospect of trying to overcome such an obstacle? If that is the case I think I might take up professional tennis. I think with a little practice and Courier's expert coaching I could execute all that sitting perfectly.

It Must Be Love

Courier was on ITV? Talking about kicking Nadal's water bottles over? Oh how I wish I had seen that. Ha ha! I have a dastardly plan for Nadal if anyone attempts to do such a thing. Are you listening Rafa? What you should do is burst into tears. You would then win everyones hearts and you would be cheered to victory.

What a shame Nadal isn't playing the Davis Cup...

Everyone knows how to beat Nadal.

A player ranked 100 kicked his ass back to Majorca and despite his petulance in the 5th couldn't get the job done.

If I were playing against Nadal, I would use a basic, simple though very effective trick to counter his antics: I would fart each and every time I pass by his bench. I know it's not so polite but: hasn't he been looking for it throughout his whole career? To that regard Courier is absolutely correct; that would probably yield me the win.

Lukas "the farter" Rosol

Djokovic knew how to but has got too happy with his lot and has taken the foot off the gas in recent times. Murray is too in awe of Nadal and Federer is too scared.

This may help.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfHJh-nKa94

Good clip there bogbrush, no evidence whatever of Federer being "scared" !

Quite the opposite in fact. When Federer is at his very, very best he can prove too hot to handle. Despite hitting the ball harder & harder on every shot, it was Rafa who eventually just ran out of ideas in that WTF Final. Likewise when he went out to Federer at Indian Wells earlier this year.

I still think Rafa will come back strong after his 'enforced' break, but he's now faced with having to claw his way back from Number 3 rather than number 2 .......

bogbrush. Please don't bring Federer into it. I don't want to say things that may upset you... and me. Just remember Federer now has 17 shiny trophies. He can't have everything.

lags72. Don't worry about Nadal. If Couriers bench sitting tactic is the best that the ATP can throw at him he will be fine.

I just wanted to point out how 'scared' (not your word) is daft.

Interesting quote from Mats Wilander:

"Rafael has the one thing that Roger doesn't: balls. I don't even think Rafael has two; I think he has three....Roger might have them, but against Nadal they shrink to a very small size and it's not once. It's every time."

Looking up random quotes from Mats is desperate stuff. In his time I think he's pronounced just about every kind of judgement on every player.

Murray in awe?

Federer scared?

What crap. Your powers of pyschology are wasted here!

legendkillarV2 wrote:Murray in awe?

Federer scared?

What crap. Your powers of pyschology are wasted here!

I agree. But again it is desperation. Suggesting that players have a mental weakness when facing Nadal is just a diversion. Maybe it makes some feel better to claim a psychological block is preventing them from beating Nadal rather than tennis skills? The truth is like you say that the powers of phschology would be wasted on this task. Courier has thrown up one last glimmer of hope for the ATP... The bench sitting tactic! (cough) If that fails then it will be obvious that no one knows how to beat Nadal...

Well given there are two players ranked higher than him someone must have a few ideas.

Why not start with playing him off clay? For nearly the last couple of years someone has always found the answer at every tournament.

hawkeye wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:Murray in awe?

Federer scared?

What crap. Your powers of pyschology are wasted here!

I agree. But again it is desperation. Suggesting that players have a mental weakness when facing Nadal is just a diversion. Maybe it makes some feel better to claim a psychological block is preventing them from beating Nadal rather than tennis skills? The truth is like you say that the powers of phschology would be wasted on this task. Courier has thrown up one last glimmer of hope for the ATP... The bench sitting tactic! (cough) If that fails then it will be obvious that no one knows how to beat Nadal...

Simply put facing Nadal on Clay is quite the evil task I wouldn't wish on anyone. Courier is on suggesting things that Big Mac himself said he would if he was on court. I don't think anything like that would trouble Nadal given that it would seem an empty gesture if players tried that sort of tact now.

The one thing I will say of say Rosol was that at no point in his match with Nadal did he look 'subdued' like many who have had the thankless task of playing him. Many of the top players even with a set lead tend to play very low error percentage tennis that plays into Nadal's hands.

The way to beat Nadal is high risk high reward tennis. It worked for Soderling and Rosol and even Federer O2 2011 and Djokovic Wimbledon 2011.

But these matches with guys like Soderling, Rosol are one-offs, cant people see that?
What happened to Soderling vs Nadal 12 mths later at FO...straights to Nadal with Robin winning 10 games!
What do you think will happen to Rosol next time they play (if they play again...)?

This high risk tennis you mention doesnt come off very often...generally once per career for most players against Nadal...Djokovic doesnt play high risj so you cant count him and we know Nadal's record vs. Federer over the past 8 years.

Djokovic can play high risk. He gets the balance right in when to attack when not to hence his 2011 success over Nadal. Yes Rosol and Soderling were one off career performances, but don't you find that sentiment in itself a high endorsment of the tennis required to beat him.

Yes Federer and Djokovic have beaten Nadal more than once, but both have had 1, at a stretch 2 dominant performances in their careers to beat Nadal.

In theory it is not so difficult to beat Nadal, but to actually execute the play is more difficult altogether. You have to find the lines, you have to find the length. Any rally with Nadal which has him dictating 2-3 strokes consistently ends normally in a favourable result to Rafa.

The tennis I speak yes is impossible to produce over a sustained period, but it does exist in small doses. You will get that one off performance when ball misses the net, finds the lines, force UE's.

Or perhaps Soderling and Rosol's gameplan would work everytime for them but they would not be able to find that level of consistency again to replicate it? Now if a more consistent player whose consistency levels were far higher could formulate their game plan then bob's your uncle and someone's your aunt.

Although the Rosol victory was rightly described as a 'freak result', it was also evidence of just what can happen when a 'lesser' (but clearly talented) player outside the elite rankings shows an ability to spend more time focussing on his own game than worrying about the guy on the other side of the net - even it it may be Rafa Nadal. And that's pretty much how Rosol joined the likes of several other non top-tenners such as Kohlschreiber, Mayer, Dodig, Monfils, Davydenko in taking out Rafa, just over the last few months or so.

Of course coaches have been giving their 'charges' this advice ever since the game was played - even at the amateur level. Play the ball, not the man. But the fact remains that the very best guys - past & present - got to where they did by making it their business to be very tough to beat in the overwhelming majority of matches. Hence why their career winning percentages are as they are ......eg Borg and Nadal (82%), Connors, Federer, McEnroe (81%), Djokovic (78%).... It was ever thus ; and always will be.

CaledonianCraig wrote: Now if a more consistent player whose consistency levels were far higher could formulate their game plan then bob's your uncle and someone's your aunt.

haha...so if it was that easy, and Nadal has been around 8-9 years now - all the players know him, they would be doing it week in, week out!!!!
But they're not. They cant! Nadal isnt sat passivley on the other side of the net you know waiting to get beaten, he also has a trick or two up his sleeve. As well as Rosol played, he played poorly dont forget. But that perfromance shows what it takes to beat guys like Nadal or Djokovic these days...I dont include Federer as I think despite Wimby he's easier to beat than the other 2.

Basically its only Djokovic or Federer, by and large, who can beat Nadal. And we know what Djokovic has had to do to get to that position...completely and utterly dedicate himself to training, diets, early nights, oxygen chambers...4 workouts per day, etc. And we able to sustain that with on-court mental stregnth and technical ability/talent. Federer like-wise - dont imagine he's not gruelling himself off-court, you simply have to to be able to live at the top of tennis now.

Rosols will always come along, they always have, where they play with no fear for a match because they are the complete underdog...like Doohan was, like Bastl was, it happens. But the top guys arent in the same position as the Rosol's who can risk to (almost have to) welly the ball every point and hope it goes in because they have nothing else to lose, everything to gain. The top guys do have things to lose and playing the Rosol way is actually damaging to your consistency and groove - because its playing without groove - its 'hit and hope' tennis. Its why no-one does it, its also why its an oxymoron for the top players to play like a Rosol - they're arent Rosol. And to be honest Rosol isnt The Wimbledon 2012 2nd Round Rosol either...

I'd agree with that final point most definitely. Shocks happen and even to the very best of players throughout tennis history and as normally happens after those shocks the winning player normally bombs out in the next round.

Exactly CC...but you'd think Rosol was the 2nd coming of the Messiah on here when in fact he's just a flash in the pan, hit-and-hope Harry who got lucky all his 100mph+ shots went in one day!

The Rosol performance was a one off. The Nadal FH was too passive and Nadal's BH fed the Rosol FH every time. There are lots of contributing factors for it to be effective.

1) Every flat aggressive shot you go for lands in and either counts as a winner or forcing an error.

2) Nadal will miss his shots and not stretch the play.

There have been players who have tried to hit through Nadal in the same way as Soderling or a Rosol has and it has failed because Nadal is not below par. For every Rosol and Soderling peformance, you get 100 near miss matches like Murray Wimbledon 2011/O2 2010 or Djokovic US Open 2010 or Isner FO 2011. Players put in a solid performance and dominate Nadal, but then once his levels rise, the whole match changes. Rosol and Soderling are fortunate that their performances paid off because others have not been so fortunate despite how well they started.

As far as I know Rosol didn't need to have platelet treatment to help him through matches like one of the dodgy clay players.

Poor attempt at playing down a loss which was earned not fluked.

But then I didn't know 'treatment' was illegal.

No-one is calling the result a fluke. Just a rare occasion performance. If he can sustain it then I won't be calling him a one hit wonder like the Crazy Frog!

haha JM, you're consistent, I'll give you that.
PRP is not illegal, and infact used by 1000s of sportsmen worldwide inc. Tiger Woods. All it does is accelerate the bodies own healing process.
For consistency are you also going to denounce use of the bariatric chambers and BEMER3000 electro-magnetic machines?

No-one is playing the specific match down on its own merit, but if you look to the bigger picture its clear the match in context of Rosol's career was a complete one-off. And yes - if you go for 100mph shots off just about every ball and they all go in I'd call that a pretty lucky (fluke) day. Do you play tennis, do you realise how ridiculous it is to do what Rosol did that day? Do you know how hard you have to hit the ball off a groundstroke to make it go 100mph?

Conversely, if a player could do that all the time - i.e. it wasnt fluke play, then they would be unbeatable and on 20+ slams plus lord knows what else! So on the contrary - a poor attempt at playing UP a win into something more than it was whilst bringing in other ways of attacking the same player.

legendkillarV2 wrote:But then I didn't know 'treatment' was illegal.

No-one is calling the result a fluke. Just a rare occasion performance. If he can sustain it then I won't be calling him a one hit wonder like the Crazy Frog!

Most of the players below top 10 would never be given the same level of aid! Honestly I think the lack of wind that gets through on CC helped him to time the ball better. Calling someone a fluke though you need to show me some of the shots that were 'flukes' (Lydian) you are currently telling us hitting the ball hard and in is a fluke! Which is a bit extreme.

Do we asterisk every Dologopolov victory for the intravenous drugs he has on tour for his 'condition'?

Shall we put asterisks by every Slam Sampras won because of the treatment for a genetic condition that caused mild forms of anemia?