Attributes vs Intelligence

Amir Khan:

A man blessed with quick hands, balance, and the ability to throw a wide and varied range of punches.

Zab Judah:

A man with quick hands, good movement and the ability to throw a wide and varied range of punches.

Andre Dirrell:

A man blessed with great speed, movement, back-foot fighting skills, a defense, and the ability to throw a wide and varied range of punches.

Victor Ortiz:

A man blessed with power, bravery, moderately quick hands, a work ethic and ability.

So, why can't they perform at the highest level?

They aren't smart enough in the ring, IMO. They lack cunning, they show and let their emotions lead them too much, and IMO, will never be the fighters they should have been as a result.

Some like their fighters raw, others impassioned. I like mine to come with mind discipline.

Attributes vs Ring Intelligence, pick one chums.


Yours Forever,

emore

Or maybe they came up against better opposition on the night!!

Sometimes your opponent does have a say in whether it's a good night or a bad one!!

Can't reach the heights of these guys without having ring intelligence...

However some fighters heads drop and some fighters don't know what to do when they are hurt...

Slightly harsh article me thinks..

3 of the 4 fighters you've written about have won world titles, so to say they can't perform at the highest level is ridiculous. Khan has a weak chin and is tactically naive, Judah & Ortiz have questionable temperaments and Dirrell has a questionable attitude to the sport full stop. Ortiz will be forever maligned for the maidana fight although he showed enormous heart in fights since. He is a hot head who acts on instinct and repents immediately afterwards. Not every fighter can be a cool customer like sweet pea or floyd.

Yes a tad harsh but the underlying principle is sound where you are left with the impression that naturally talented fighters do not make the most of their abilities and are beat by guys with less skill.

But this is one of the beauties of boxing and indeed sport.

It's a core reason why we all watch.

A boxing ring has been described as the loneliest place on earth. Boxers have literally crapped themselves before, during and after fights. I have seen Mike Watson urinating blood for days (not literally seen him do that but you get my drift) after his fight with Benn.

When you are in the ring you are often oblivious to everything around you. You try and retain focus on your game plan......until the bell goes and you are at the receiving end of a punch. Then fight or flee battle comes over. You fight. You want to take the other guy out. You have to focus on your game plan. Your adrenalin is in full flow, pulse racing to over 100 bpm. Nowhere to run. You cant hide.

It takes a special type of person to fight professionally. It takes a special person and type of boxer to be able to maintain discipline under those circumstances.

It seems that your list are indeed brave and special young men, but lack that mental toughness that separates the good from the great.

Nice one emore.

At the end of the day TRUSS, all of these fighters have self-destructed at some point whilst fighting at world level. They lack the smarts in their heads to keep it together.

Cheers azania, this article is not about whether or not they have ability at word-level, you know that.

Good post Az and very true......

Slightly disagree ...on Khan..

Khan's problem is he gets dozy in fights..think he's plenty tough mentally!!!

Ali..Louis..Holmes etc all got decked off relative garbage by being dozy...However they were lucky enough to have a decent survival instinct!!

Unfortunately it's not something that can be taught!!

These fighters are like teenagers out on the lash. They simply cannot keep it together for the night.

The examples are endless, i will not bore you with them.

Great points Azania.

Ortiz, Khan and Dirrell especially, have nothing left at the upper world, approaching elite level. Khan never got near elite, only in hype, IMO.

Judah is a joke when he starts to get out-boxed. Childish and impulsive. Both in a bad way, IMO.

davidemore wrote:These fighters are like teenagers out on the lash. They simply cannot keep it together for the night.

The examples are endless, i will not bore you with them.

But that isn't true - Khan fought very disciplined matches against kotelnik & paulie. He goes to pot when he's wobbled as his survival instincts are poor. Ortiz & Judah have both fought for and won world titles. To say they CANNOT keep it together is wrong, they've shown they can. The problem with these fighters is consistency. They aren't able to consistently perform in a composed enough way to maintain top level status, their mental flaws prevent them from staying among the elite despite there being occaisions when they do maintain a clear head that allows them to get there in the first place.

Sugar are you agreeing or disagreeing with my post? I'm confused.

Good points but i have to disagree, when they are in control they control, when the fight is balanced they lose their mental balance, and when they get caught they fall apart. Where would Froch be if he flaked every time he got chinned? In a mental home probably, for mental people.

I'm just differentiating between the suggestion they cannot maintain a clear head against them not staying mentally focused consistently - there's a difference. Khan is not my favourite fighter, but he has shown he can be disciplined in the ring and he managed to stay in the game against maidana even though he'd been hurt. Problem is he cannot do this fight after fight as he lacks mental consistency. Ortiz was mentally weak against maidana and irrational against floyd, but he climbed off the deck several times to win a title against berto. My opinion is that I agree these fighters have mental weaknesses that will prevent them staying at the top, but that they have something about them mentally that allows them to fight at this level and win titles. To me it's a lack of consistency, rather than a complete incapability to be smart or keep a clear head.

Great points Sugar, so we agree that mentally they switch off?

You can't defend Judah, surely? He is a loon tune when the going gets tough. And Dirrell, where the hell is his head at? No wonder they call him the matrix. In his last fight he apologized like he'd been caught shoplifting! For what, a semi low blow that the referee only said, 'keep them up' to. Bonkers.

fair article i think, assuming that we're saying they're relatively speaking underachievers.

Most top sportsmen have similar ability levels...the margins are very minor. Consequently, what is going on between the ears is often the decisive factor. Boxing is one of those where a small differential can lead to a dramatic difference in result. As such, a small technical deficiency, concentration issues, a slight edge in physicality... or ring generalship... a bit more heart. All of these factors can be the difference between success and failure on a given night, and yet a different one on another.

All the fighters named in the op have plenty of ability, but lack that certain something... whether its ring intelligence or mental discipline or both.

As for choosing attributes v intelligence, i'll take the skilled stupid fighters for the entertainment value and unpredictability

"i'll take the skilled stupid fighters for the entertainment value and unpredictability"

Lol @ milkyboy Hahahaha!

Still think the article is harsh....especially on Khan..

Curry was starched by Mccallum....Ali by Cooper..Louis by Galento and Schmelling were they mentally weak??

They were all great.....

Mistakes happen........thing is Khan just hasn't got a good survival instinct..

davidemore - no I wouldn't even bother attempting to defend Judah, he's just a fruit cake.

TRUSS, they are not good examples. Khan came looking for more, lacked the ability to cover up and basically walked into punches. Amateur, complete amateur instincts, not survival instincts. The man needs to realize heart only takes you so far, and he has attributes!

Respect for him taking on Danny though.

Not sure about Dirrell being on the list. His one defeat was a close one to one of the top guys in the division. I dont really know what the situation has been with him medically since the AA fight but if he could get it together I still think he has alot of potential.

I think the others on the list are incomplete fighters and in the case of Khan and Judah there natural outstanding speed has lead them to be overrated somewhat despite there being major flaws in other parts of the game. Raw attributes like speed and power quite often grab the attention of fans while fighters that are much more well rounded but lack outstanding attributes in one area go less appreciated.

lol @ sugar boy, he is a nut!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Good post Az and very true......

Slightly disagree ...on Khan..

Khan's problem is he gets dozy in fights..think he's plenty tough mentally!!!

Ali..Louis..Holmes etc all got decked off relative garbage by being dozy...However they were lucky enough to have a decent survival instinct!!

Unfortunately it's not something that can be taught!!

The mental toughness includes remaining focused and not going dozy.

But like I said...Ali..Louis and almost all great fighters get dozy....

Just that Khan doesn't know what to do when hurt..

Ali - Cooper...Banks....
Louis - Galento..Schmelling...
Holmes - Shavers..Snipes...Weaver...

Lots of sense on this post. Az's first was sublime and Milky's was true in every respect. I have nothing to add.

Don't think curry belongs alongside the others there truss, mccallum was a great fighter who shouldn't be labelled alongside copper and Wepner of all people.

These points are valid and informed.

Nice post Emore.

Id agree with the list.

The one that frustrates me the most is Khan. This guy has probably the most talent in the boxing game outside of the likes of Mayweather and Pacquiao. His problem is his mindset as you rightly stated.

I am in agreement that a good "mindset" fighter beats a very good "normal" fighter.

Ortiz is another one that annoys me. In his fight against Maidana, he simply quit. Fair enough. I can see why.

Then against Berto he was absolutely immense. One of the best performances i have seen if im honest, and thats respect to both fighters.

He showed power, speed, footwork, survival instinct and most importantly a good minset.

Against Mayweather, i have no idea what happened. The mindset had completely gone. Was he overwhelmed by Floyd? Or the Crowd? Or maybe the whole build up was too much for him at his age and with his experience.


I hope Khan and Ortiz can pick themselves up after their performances and give back to the fans and gain world titles.

On a separate note, props go to Judah who is a timebomb at times, and of course Direll who i think is THE most talented fighter in the sport. Just wish his mindset was different.

Great post mobile. Dirrell will never fulfill his talent IMO. He simply does not have the mindset. I don't know what it is but he cannot get it done.

What is up with him?

..both are required in seperate measures in amounts appropriate to the individual.

This is demonstrated when observing past stars. By doing so we determine that Ali, Jones, Hopkins and Sweet Pea's physical attributes declined with age and that their ring intelligence remained. When their own unique attribute/intelligence equilibrium was disturbed it effected their performance in different ways. Therefore physical attributes allow the effective utilisation of intelligence. And poor intelligence can inhibit the effective use of attributes.

I'll agree with Hopkins, Whitaker and Ali but I think Jones' lack of ring intelligence was shown to be lacking once his physical attributes started to decline, his fall from grace coincided with his diminishing speed.

Ali and Jones provide stark examples of the difference between a boxer who is also an athlete and an athlete who is a boxer.

Harsh on Dirrell, he definitely has a ring IQ, he just needs to get back in the ring!

I think my point was that great fighters possess intelligence and physical attributes in different amounts (in proportions that work for them). And that physicality can make up for a lack of intelligence. And whats more is that when your physical attributes desert you.... then all you are left with is your intelligence. Hence it effects different greats in different ways. For example, Jones' deterioration, Ali's condition, B-Hops continuation etc. We are singing from the same song sheet.

TheMackemMawler wrote:..both are required in seperate measures in amounts appropriate to the individual.

This is demonstrated when observing past stars. By doing so we determine that Ali, Jones, Hopkins and Sweet Pea's physical attributes declined with age and that their ring intelligence remained. When their own unique attribute/intelligence equilibrium was disturbed it effected their performance in different ways. Therefore physical attributes allow the effective utilisation of intelligence. And poor intelligence can inhibit the effective use of attributes.

Id probably say that Floyd Mayweather falls into that category as well. His speed has diminished, only slightly. His power has started to diminsh (yes i know he has never been THAT hard a puncher, but still had pop.) His footwork does not seem to be the same.

However, his Ring IQ is 100% top of the game. Knows when to cover up, when to trade, how to utilise the ropes to HIS advantage etc etc.

davidemore wrote:Great post mobile. Dirrell will never fulfill his talent IMO. He simply does not have the mindset. I don't know what it is but he cannot get it done.

Agree 100%. Every time is see him in action, he has the makings of a complete boxer and could make it as a top P4P star in years to come. However, as stated, his mindset seems to be somewhere else. I dont know if its because he is scared to be hit, or scared TO hit, or maybe his mind or heart isnt in the game.

If it was though, my god would he be class!

khan will never be an elite level fighter,especially not at welter.

Not quite what you said to start with Mackem but will have to agree to agree for a change.

Mobile so right, the man is way, way, way too inactive though. One fight at Christmas and not a sniff since, wtf?

TheMackemMawler wrote:..both are required in seperate measures in amounts appropriate to the individual.

This is demonstrated when observing past stars. By doing so we determine that Ali, Jones, Hopkins and Sweet Pea's physical attributes declined with age and that their ring intelligence remained. When their own unique attribute/intelligence equilibrium was disturbed it effected their performance in different ways. Therefore physical attributes allow the effective utilisation of intelligence. And poor intelligence can inhibit the effective use of attributes.

Above was my first post, below is my second post. All you do is read between the lines and make the gaps mean what you want. They are pretty much one and the same thing but i guess you are too dumb to realise. All you seem to do is jump on slight inconsistencies where people have not articulated something in the way that you want. Then you decide they mean something else. I didn't get my point across in the way I intended. You provided some input, and i made myself more clear.

"I think my point was that great fighters possess intelligence and physical attributes in different amounts (in proportions that work for them). And that physicality can make up for a lack of intelligence. And whats more is that when your physical attributes desert you.... then all you are left with is your intelligence. Hence it effects different greats in different ways. For example, Jones' deterioration, Ali's condition, B-Hops continuation etc. We are singing from the same song sheet"

davidemore wrote:Mobile so right, the man is way, way, way too inactive though. One fight at Christmas and not a sniff since, wtf?

Wasnt he lined up for a fight earlier this year, or upcoming, but pulled out through injury?? Cant really remember unless it was the other Direll brother?? (Who again is VERY good and talented, only way too inactive)

mobilemaster8 wrote:

davidemore wrote:Mobile so right, the man is way, way, way too inactive though. One fight at Christmas and not a sniff since, wtf?

Wasnt he lined up for a fight earlier this year, or upcoming, but pulled out through injury?? Cant really remember unless it was the other Direll brother?? (Who again is VERY good and talented, only way too inactive)

Having cancer is a pretty good reason to be inactive.