Would Welterweight be suicide for Khan ???

Johnny Nelson sees Welterweight now for Khan...

On the plus side an extra seven pounds might make his chin a little better (Didn't with Tommy but did with Rog Mayweather), a little more flesh on the legs etc.. and he'd still keep his speed!!

However chances are his punches will be less effective!!!...and he'll be in against naturally bigger guys who can take his punishment and wait for the opportunity which would likely come!!..

Thing is Khan has to win early against guys that can dig and a naturally bigger welter would carry a solid dig even If he's not a puncher... than say a good punching 140er...

I think Khan is better rematching Garcia and hoping he can do enough early and not get caught!!

Would welter be suicide for Khan?? Yep think it would!!

I think killing himself to make 140 would be more detrimental. Rios in his last 2 fights should be a lesson to anyone struggling to make weight and he does have a chin!

Weight division aside, I think any form of boxing for Khan would be suicide without first finding a suitable trainer to work on his defence and in-fighting

Not sure he is killing himself..he's already moved up once..

A few people on here are questioning Roach...and I think it's a tad unfair!!

Khan is no doubt told to work from behind his jab....Think it's his fault rather than any trainer's folly..

Thanks for the reply..

Not sure where the idea that Khan is or would be killing himself to get down to Light-Welterweight comes from. He's said even since the fight on Saturday that he made the weight pretty comfortably. Besides, the factors - or at least a couple of them, notably height and reach - which people think are going to be key to Khan's redevelopment are going to be less of an advantage at the higher weight.

I don't think he's hit 150 lb on fight night yet throughout his Light-Welterweight tenure. No doubt in my mind that some of the big names at Welter will be in to the 160 lb plus bracket - if Khan's having trouble holding off the charge of natural Light-Welters, then he's going to be in a world of trouble oagainst men who could be a stone heavier than him by the time the first bell goes.

Nope, I think extending his stay at 140 lb would be the sensible option for Khan. There are still big fights there, and ones which, from the outset, seem a lot more winnable than ones against the likes of Mayweather, Ortiz and Brook.

Freddie Roach is a fantastic trainer the time Khan gets with him is probably more of a problem than the ability of the trainer.

Even if he was with Emmanuel Steward who is probably better suited to train a fighter with Khans attributes he wouldn't get that much more time with him.

Floyd Snr is available and is highly thought of by Oscar De La Hoya that could be an option.

I think Khan needs a break I don't think he should fight again this year he is in danger of burning out and being washed up before he's 30. I think he should then come back at 147lbs and get a couple of wins under his belt.

Maybe fight in England and definitely should be kept away from punchers to let him settle into his new weight and look to move back to World class about a year from now.

He will definitely need to learn from the defeat because if he keeps fighting like he has been over the last few years he will get sparked out a few more times.

He fights like an amateur at times. When he gets hit and wobbled instead of moving and holding he goes looking to score points. I'm not sure his chin is the real problem I think it's the way he acts when he's hurt.

Not sure about your Roach point, watched a number of the lead-in shows and never saw Khan working behind the jab once in sparring/training. Certianly not a style Roach seems to favour.

Re the OP, I think Khan will naturally grow into the weight but agree your points all the same the more I think about it. Khan has about 4 rounds to take people out, if not he'll have to work to a UD. Bigger guys will be used to bigger shots, therefore find it easier to last Khan's opening barage, after that they'll likely hit as hard if not harder than anyone at WW and will just keep swinging for that big KO win. That's all Garcia did Saturday and it worked fine.

88Chris05 wrote:Not sure where the idea that Khan is or would be killing himself to get down to Light-Welterweight comes from. He's said even since the fight on Saturday that he made the weight pretty comfortably. Besides, the factors - or at least a couple of them, notably height and reach - which people think are going to be key to Khan's redevelopment are going to be less of an advantage at the higher weight.

I don't think he's hit 150 lb on fight night yet throughout his Light-Welterweight tenure. No doubt in my mind that some of the big names at Welter will be in to the 160 lb plus bracket - if Khan's having trouble holding off the charge of natural Light-Welters, then he's going to be in a world of trouble oagainst men who could be a stone heavier than him by the time the first bell goes.

Nope, I think extending his stay at 140 lb would be the sensible option for Khan. There are still big fights there, and ones which, from the outset, seem a lot more winnable than ones against the likes of Mayweather, Ortiz and Brook.

?

Khan does remind me of Holyfield without the chin!!!

Fairness to the kid he has the ability to shut anyone out but seems to like to please too much!!!

Problem is doesn't get out quick enough after he lands!!

Bit like Tommy If you can withstand the early barrage a la Kinchen and Barkley..

Chances are you can get into the fight...

Not sure any Trainer can curb Khan's natural tendencies!!

Yes

The thing is khan is not killing himself to make the weight and never has, it's too easy just to assume he can't make the weight. He makes weight easier than anyone bar Marquez to make 140. He comes in about 147-149 lbs on fight night and looking at other top guys average weight E.G. Garcia 150+, matthysse 154, Judah 150 (who isn't a big LWW either), Maidana 153, Rios 152 (at lightweight) we can see that weight wouldn't be much of a problem or at least not as bad as other fighters find

Khan is not a big LWW contrary to belief. Yes he stands at 5'10 but when he is in the ring his body looks smaller than most of his opponents. I'm not saying he is small I'm saying he isn't physically the strongest at the weight

Khan's style is ALL about speed. His defensive frailties and questionable chin will be hard to fix so he needs to retain his speed. Adding excess muscle could slow him down a little bit that might be all his opponents needs to land shots on him

Will his chin improve? Maybe, maybe not. Will he be in against bigger harder punchers that will make it irrelevant if his chin improves or not? Imo yes

He hasn't got genuine power at LWW and I would assume that the welterweights will know this and just apply the pressure and try to walk through him

He will pick some pillow punchers at 140lb, then go on to say Mayweather is ducking him blah, blah, blah.

Khan was set up as a brand by his dad, not a fighter.

He can move to whatever division he wants. He is NEVER going to cut the top level. Washed up fighters and fringe level fighters are the only ones he can compete with. And even thats proving to be a challenge for him.

The guy is a broken record with his Mayweather tripe.

I think its gonna be interesting to see what Khan does next because Welter is a hot division at the minute and his current division is even hotter. These guys making a splash or moving up (Matthyse, Rios, Marquez, Guerrero etc) are gonna be hunting a name like Khan so lets see if he (rubber) legs it or stands his ground.

No doubt a Paulie rematch will be on the cards...

He has got genuine power at 140......Petersen found that out!!

But I see where you are coming from and agree with your post....

Funny thing power...Gomez moved up four pounds and struggled to take his punch with him..Hatton the same..

I'm by no means knocking Roach. What he achieved with Khan post Prescott has been pretty remarkable and I'm pretty sure no other trainer could have done the same. I just think he's taken Khan as far as he can. In my eyes it's as much down to Khan's limitations as it is Roach's methods if not more that his development has seemingly flattened.

I doubt that Roach spending any more time with Khan would make him a better fighter. The best possible end result for the Khan/Roach partnership would be for Khan to effectively become an orthodox version of Manny. That for numerous reasons hasn't happened and is fairly obvious won't happen so it points to a change of approach which I don't think is possible under Roach.

By all means knock Roach it's a debating board...Your opinion is always welcome..If not as good as mine!!

qc2..reminds me of that awful film Titanic my fiery redhead likes to watch way too often..

walked into the lounge the other night to see him holding on to the iceberg for the 56th time!!

How I longed to stick my foot on his head and help him on his way!!

I dont see Brook beating Khan. Not a chance.

I think it would be a great fight though because the build up would be good.


If Khan boxes to his ability he could outbox most fighters out there.


Just needs to cut the bravado crap!

Khan really needs to pace himself better. If he threw a bit less leather early on he would leave less openings and later in the fight he should retain more power to hold guys off when they come looking for him more. It seems like early on he is intent on trying to blow guys away and win every round by a huge margin, he should know when he's done enough and just tighten up for parts of the round.

I see Brook beating Khan easily now....

Khan is set in his ways!! If he hasn't learn't by now he never will!!

anyway he took a lot of punishment as he did in earlier fights...

Maybe the next Khan isn't as good!!!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I see Brook beating Khan easily now....

Khan is set in his ways!! If he hasn't learn't by now he never will!!

anyway he took a lot of punishment as he did in earlier fights...

Maybe the next Khan isn't as good!!!

Maybe so. I just hope his move up to Welterweight does not hinder him and actually benefits him!

Could go one of two ways, I just hope its the right move because he is a very exciting fighter with bags of talent.


This next move will literally make or break his career. IMO.

qc2 wrote:I'm by no means knocking Roach. What he achieved with Khan post Prescott has been pretty remarkable and I'm pretty sure no other trainer could have done the same. I just think he's taken Khan as far as he can. In my eyes it's as much down to Khan's limitations as it is Roach's methods if not more that his development has seemingly flattened.

I doubt that Roach spending any more time with Khan would make him a better fighter. The best possible end result for the Khan/Roach partnership would be for Khan to effectively become an orthodox version of Manny. That for numerous reasons hasn't happened and is fairly obvious won't happen so it points to a change of approach which I don't think is possible under Roach.

Can someone please watch Khan's first three fights against Bailey, Carey and Gethin (available on the career in video section of this sight) and tell me what these wonderful improvements are to Khans style. I don't see it. Watch these fights he's got the tools, he works behind the jab more, and is more elusive. Most importantly he purposefuly chooses his moments for all out attack (instead of just throwing thoughtless combo after thoughtless combo, or mindlessly retreating which he has demonstrated at times in his last two fights). Ok the opposition is poor but surely watching these three fights illustrates my point THAT FREDDY HASN'T REALLY DONE MUCH (apart from raise Khan's profile and inflate his ego). The Prescott incident was one of those things that happen in boxing. I believe if Khan had not gone with Freddy his career upto now would be similar. The only credit Freddy should get is the acknowledgement of his part in helping the big fights to happen, thus helping Khan raise his profile after the Prescott deafeat. Tactically I'm not sure what he has done (he got knocked by Breidas and he got knocked by Garcia...same mistake). A good coach should devise a plan that is risk free if the guy is prone to lapses in concentration.

To put things straight, I think Roach is a fantastic coach, I think certain coaches are suited to a particular kind of fighter, and I think to some extent coaches are lucky to have gifted fighters in their stable which naturally raises their own stock. To reiterate, Freddy is a quality coach but HE'S NOT FOR KHAN.

When has Khan last shown genuine power though Truss?

All well and good overwhelming opponents with fast punches and knocking them over. But when was the last time he actually KO'ed someone or even wobbled them/hurt them. He caught Maidana a corker to the body but apart from that it seems he just rushes in to push people over with punches. Even the terminator Salita seemed fine after he got stopped

Peterson got straight up and didn't look to be on shaky legs, Maidana recovered ok. Zab quit - enough said. And Paulie was just done in after 11 rounds of being picked apart. Nothing to do with power. More to do with quantity of shots he took.

"I don't see Brook beating Khan, no chance"

"Maybe so"

Wow It doesn't take much to change your mind does it!!

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:"I don't see Brook beating Khan, no chance"

"Maybe so"

Wow It doesn't take much to change your mind does it!!

Maybe so was referring to the rest of your statement. Not regarding the Brook part. My mistake! Should have mentioned it better.

Don't let it happen again!!!

I don't think khan has natural power at the weight, and by that I mean that he is an average puncher not a light one

He hit Peterson with bomb after bomb but petersons too it without getting really hurt. He looked like the only way he was getting stopped was from fatigue if anything. Garcia who was hurt by holt a couple times and morales buzzed him took khans shot really well

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:He has got genuine power at 140......Petersen found that out!!

But I see where you are coming from and agree with your post....

Funny thing power...Gomez moved up four pounds and struggled to take his punch with him..Hatton the same..

Did he? A lot of people on here have said that at least one, if not both, of those flash knockdowns were slips. After that Khan landed plenty but never had Peterson in so much trouble again. He's not featherfisted, he does have power, but his ko's will always be accummulation punches not devastating singles.

They were genuine knockdowns against a guy with a decent chin.......

A lot of people on here don't like Khan..

But we can disagree with eachother for now......sooner or later you will realise that I'm always right!!

The second knockdown against Peterson if you watch it, both their legs get tangled and Khan (quite clearly) uses his forearm to push Peterson over after throwing a small flurry of punches.

I suggest you take a minute and watch that knockdown Truss. I have just re-watched it and at no point does power come into question with the Peterson knockdowns.

I really dont see how Khan has not improved under Roach. I have my doubts that the Khan who was being floored by Limond and Gomez would have beaten Maidana, Kotelnik or Judah.

Was Lennox Lewis not knocked out by Rahman just like he was against McCall. Would that amount to Lewis having not having progressed under Steward?

Part of the issue for me is that Khan seems to be talked about as if he has limitless potential and should be a future pound for pound king. He has natural speed, but perhaps lacks the ability elsewhere to acheive this status. Maybe hes just a good contender that belongs in the mix with the other top light welters rather than a guy who should be leagues above them and destined for the kind of multi weight success the likes of Pacquiao and MAyweather have had.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:They were genuine knockdowns against a guy with a decent chin.......

A lot of people on here don't like Khan..

But we can disagree with eachother for now......sooner or later you will realise that I'm always right!!

One of the two definitely was a slip, that's not hatred of Khan just slow-mo replay evidence. And decent chin? Dropped twice (legitimately) by Ortiz and one by feather-fisted Bradley. He can absorb punishment ok (as evidenced by how much he took from Khan round 2 onwards) but he doesn't have a solid chin.

Maidana was decked off Khan.........and wobbled...

He got a dodgy chin too?

He was decked off a body shot, not sure what relevance his chin is?

I'm talkng about his power dumbass...

manos de piedra wrote:I really dont see how Khan has not improved under Roach. I have my doubts that the Khan who was being floored by Limond and Gomez would have beaten Maidana, Kotelnik or Judah.

Was Lennox Lewis not knocked out by Rahman just like he was against McCall. Would that amount to Lewis having not having progressed under Steward?

Part of the issue for me is that Khan seems to be talked about as if he has limitless potential and should be a future pound for pound king. He has natural speed, but perhaps lacks the ability elsewhere to acheive this status. Maybe hes just a good contender that belongs in the mix with the other top light welters rather than a guy who should be leagues above them and destined for the kind of multi weight success the likes of Pacquiao and MAyweather have had.

Perhaps Khan has improved with experience rather than what Roach has taught him? Remember the Khan that fought Limond was at least 10 fights less experienced than the Khan that fought Maidaina, so naturally the earlier version would struggle. How about instead of saying that Roach has improved Khan, you tell me how he has improved him? I've gave a sound argument to the contrary elsewhere therefore its your turn to convince me otherwise rather than just disagree.

Good anology you used with Lewis, but did Lewis improve under Stewart or did he just become more cautious? Personally I don't know. I'm also wary of giving a coach too much credit when he takes over the tuition of an already world class boxer.

Manos Is right Khan has no doubt improved under Roach....

But in fairness to you Mackem...experience of sparring with guys like Manny regularly may have attributed to that to a great extent..

TheMackemMawler wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:I really dont see how Khan has not improved under Roach. I have my doubts that the Khan who was being floored by Limond and Gomez would have beaten Maidana, Kotelnik or Judah.

Was Lennox Lewis not knocked out by Rahman just like he was against McCall. Would that amount to Lewis having not having progressed under Steward?

Part of the issue for me is that Khan seems to be talked about as if he has limitless potential and should be a future pound for pound king. He has natural speed, but perhaps lacks the ability elsewhere to acheive this status. Maybe hes just a good contender that belongs in the mix with the other top light welters rather than a guy who should be leagues above them and destined for the kind of multi weight success the likes of Pacquiao and MAyweather have had.

Perhaps Khan has improved with experience rather than what Roach has taught him? Remember the Khan that fought Limond was at least 10 fights less experienced than the Khan that fought Maidaina, so naturally the earlier version would struggle. How about instead of saying that Roach has improved Khan, you tell me how he has improved him? I've gave a sound argument to the contrary elsewhere therefore its your turn to convince me otherwise rather than just disagree.

Good anology you used with Lewis, but did Lewis improve under Stewart or did he just become more cautious? Personally I don't know. I'm also wary of giving a coach too much credit when he takes over the tuition of an already world class boxer.

Experience will definately help. But at the same time I think its a stretch to say that had Khan just kept fighting with any old trainer he would have gone from being starched out by Prescott and being floored by super featherweights to being a world champion in a handful of fights. You could use that basis for playing down the impact of any trainer on a fighter if its just assumed they get better with experience. Usually they find a style earlier and the trainer works on honing and sharpening that with small tweaks and adjustments rather than wholesale changes.

The sparring he is getting under Roach I think helped alot. His defence tightened up, his movement improvement and hes become sharper. You are probably correct in that I dont think Roach made wholesale changes to him but rather I think he sharpened a fighter that was amateurish and rough around the edges. You will probably say that it was found wanting in his fights with Peterson and Garcia but at the same time they are a far higher calibre of fighter than the ones he was facing earlier.

Hes always been blessed with fast hands so I think its natural that his style will be based around this. He could switch trainers, and maybe he could develop but I definately dont think its a given or that its a case of the Skys the limit for Khan if he just finds the right trainer. Hes always going to vulnerable, I think he will always lack an inside game and struggle to cope with fighters who pressure him. He seems to make mistakes that I dont really see as being flaws in a gameplan but rather his lack of instinct and awareness and potentially his capacity to deal with these issues. It could also be an issue of having expectations too high for a fighter that has some great natural attributes but too many problems elsewhere to really be an elite fighter or pound for pound king.

TheMackemMawler wrote:

qc2 wrote:I'm by no means knocking Roach. What he achieved with Khan post Prescott has been pretty remarkable and I'm pretty sure no other trainer could have done the same. I just think he's taken Khan as far as he can. In my eyes it's as much down to Khan's limitations as it is Roach's methods if not more that his development has seemingly flattened.

I doubt that Roach spending any more time with Khan would make him a better fighter. The best possible end result for the Khan/Roach partnership would be for Khan to effectively become an orthodox version of Manny. That for numerous reasons hasn't happened and is fairly obvious won't happen so it points to a change of approach which I don't think is possible under Roach.

Can someone please watch Khan's first three fights against Bailey, Carey and Gethin (available on the career in video section of this sight) and tell me what these wonderful improvements are to Khans style. I don't see it. Watch these fights he's got the tools, he works behind the jab more, and is more elusive. Most importantly he purposefuly chooses his moments for all out attack (instead of just throwing thoughtless combo after thoughtless combo, or mindlessly retreating which he has demonstrated at times in his last two fights). Ok the opposition is poor but surely watching these three fights illustrates my point THAT FREDDY HASN'T REALLY DONE MUCH (apart from raise Khan's profile and inflate his ego). The Prescott incident was one of those things that happen in boxing. I believe if Khan had not gone with Freddy his career upto now would be similar. The only credit Freddy should get is the acknowledgement of his part in helping the big fights to happen, thus helping Khan raise his profile after the Prescott deafeat. Tactically I'm not sure what he has done (he got knocked by Breidas and he got knocked by Garcia...same mistake). A good coach should devise a plan that is risk free if the guy is prone to lapses in concentration.

To put things straight, I think Roach is a fantastic coach, I think certain coaches are suited to a particular kind of fighter, and I think to some extent coaches are lucky to have gifted fighters in their stable which naturally raises their own stock. To reiterate, Freddy is a quality coach but HE'S NOT FOR KHAN.

This is how I see it also. He has lost his jab. Been saying so for a while. He has a good jab when he decides to use it. It seems Roach is trying to mould him into a Manny v2. Perhaps Steward would not be best for him, but a change of tactics with new ideas is needed. Freddie has taken his as far as he can. Now for another chapter.

I think we all kind of agree without agreeing. I can definetly see common ground and lots i disagee with but i dont have the inclination or desire to repeat my opinion or discuss further

Khan's career is going to be a risky place to be from now on in, at any weight. If he isn't busting at the seams, then I would suggest staying at 140 and avenging some of those losses. If he were to step up at take on, say Ortiz, in a crossroads, I think he gets KO'd to the beaxinum because he wouldn't be able to handle to power. That said, he beats Paulie (obviously), Bailey and Alexander for me.

Needs to adjust his defence before allowing anyone with power at 147 near his chin, IMO

Personally i think he will get wiped out by any half decent welter so he should well away from that division. As far as trainers go i dont think it will make a jot of difference from a skills point of view who he goes to at this stage of his career. At the top level he will always get hit and when he gets hit he struggles that will never change, but a stint with a straight talking English trainer like Rob McCracken might be good for him and bring his head out of the clouds. I get the feeling from an early age no one around him be it trainers, family or promoters ever takes him aside and say "listen Amir you are making a dick of yourself, wrap it up a bit mate", got to say some honesty might do him a shed load of good.

Good points Hogey!!

but If someone is thick......they are thick..

By the way..Do you get a prize on here for having the most threads locked???

Off topic, does anyone think the Chisora and Haye fight was morally correct?

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I'm talkng about his power dumbass...

You mentioned chin.

Twice. Dumbass.

Seanusarrilius wrote:Khan's career is going to be a risky place to be from now on in, at any weight. If he isn't busting at the seams, then I would suggest staying at 140 and avenging some of those losses. If he were to step up at take on, say Ortiz, in a crossroads, I think he gets KO'd to the beaxinum because he wouldn't be able to handle to power. That said, he beats Paulie (obviously), Bailey and Alexander for me.

Needs to adjust his defence before allowing anyone with power at 147 near his chin, IMO

I'd have thought Bailey was exactly the kind of fighter Khan should avoid. Limited technical prowess but a serious puncher's chance and the ability to absorb Khan's early onslaught. Like Garcia.

I'd like him to fight Garcia or another decent hitter - and see how it goes, get the feeling that the extra long camp might have sapped Khans reserves and left him alittle more vulnerable than usual

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Maidana was decked off Khan.........and wobbled...

He got a dodgy chin too?

Maidana was put down by a body shot which anyone can go down from no matter who it is who threw the punch

Maidana doesn't have a dodgy chin but gets hurt in a lot of his fights. Ortiz, Kotelnik, Alexander and even morales all buzzed him a couple times.

Khan hits fairly hard for the opening rounds but loses his power really quickly as he throws with speed instead of power as he knows he can't trade shots due to his chin

"You mention chin twice, DUMBASS"

Now you know I'm the only one on here who's allowed to say that word..

Yes but you have to have power in the shot..or there'd be thirty knockdowns a fight...

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Manos Is right Khan has no doubt improved under Roach....

But in fairness to you Mackem...experience of sparring with guys like Manny regularly may have attributed to that to a great extent..

i think khan would be alot better if trained by roger mayweather,who i think is a better coach than roach,freddies fighters keep losing.
i think roger can teach a boxer everything,whereas roach teaches his fighters to be 1 dimentional.they have poor defence,so they take alot of shots,and they keep fighting the same way even if its not working.they cant adapt to different styles,so they look great against 1 style,and struggle against another.
prime example is mannys fights against marquez.freddie couldnt train manny to get the better of marquez in any of those fights eventhough he had 3 chances.

I wouldnt go anywhere near Roger Mayweather. You would need a translator to understand his instructions and probably a good lawyer too.

Theres only so much a trainer can do with a fighter and if you focus too much on a fighters weaknesses you can ignore developing their natural strengths.