Age v Youth

Throught out these boards there seems a growing trend to bring in younger and younger players...(and even myself at times have made this mistake)

Now in situations when the new kids are a real talent and the current incumbant is an average joe...i can understand this.

However sometimes its to replace either a quality old guy for example ah its time to replace Paul O'Connell....even though he's playing blindingly well...just because he's a bit older and they want a young guy in there??!!

Even Ritchie McCaw is now apparently past it...

What is the rush to push out quality experience grizzled internationals for young kids still wet around the ears?

Ryan Jones is playing out of his skin at the moment and I would not swap him for all the Lydiate's or Faletua's in the world.

A lot of comments regarding age have to be taken in context. Some Players are past it and 9 times out of 10 they know this themselves.

I for one was really sad to see Chris Paterson go but at 33 his time was definitly up. For a Winger or Full back it must be hard to keep going untill that age but Paterson did it really well. Earning a lot of plaudits in his last 6N in 2011 making some fabulous tackles.... Just ask Ben Foden if he though Paterson was past it.

A lot of posters (myself included) thought he was past it, we were proven very wrong.

POC and McCaw are in a better position than the likes of Paterson or BOD who must surely be considering retirement after the upcoming Lions tour. A lack of pace in the Forwards is easier to hide than being Exposed at the Outside centre channel or at Full back.

Nathan Hines played on at international level till 34 and I'm sure Shaw played alongside Moses in the Israelite 1st XV and has only just recently called it aday. For some expecially in the forwards age is just a number.

If I had a lock with POC's level of "manic aggression", commitment, passion and experience playing for Scotland I wouldn't be in a rush to force hime out the door.

Its about balance I think. You definitely benefit from a handful of experienced heads scattered throughout the side.... however unfortunately there is no subsititute for youth and the energy and confidence that comes with it....

If you've too many aging players then you will struggle...unless you can do a SA, Argentina or England circa 2003 and control the pace of the game with a dominant pack.

On one end of the spectrum England seem to be throwing anyone over 31 on the scrapheap whereas Ireland seem to be oblivious to the age profile of their players 3 years out from the RWC.

Somewhere in the middle is probably the right approach imo and ideally each side wants to peak at the next RWC with a team of an average age of 27-28, with plenty of caps and big game experience to call on.

LordDowlais wrote:Ryan Jones is playing out of his skin at the moment and I would not swap him for all the Lydiate's or Faletua's in the world.

He definitely is, he should be a nailed on starter for Wales.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Throught out these boards there seems a growing trend to bring in younger and younger players...(and even myself at times have made this mistake)

Now in situations when the new kids are a real talent and the current incumbant is an average joe...i can understand this.

However sometimes its to replace either a quality old guy for example ah its time to replace Paul O'Connell....even though he's playing blindingly well...just because he's a bit older and they want a young guy in there??!!

Even Ritchie McCaw is now apparently past it...

What is the rush to push out quality experience grizzled internationals for young kids still wet around the ears?

I think ultimately it's about balance Geordie. It's easy to say oh i'd replace x with y etc... particularly when you have the sort of huge playing resources that the big Unions do. As another poster pointed out on a different thread, the All Blacks are probably the best side at introducing new talent gradually into the ranks.

When you have a team that is consistently performing to such a high standard that sort of approach is a) slightly easier, as the requirement for radical change is reduced and b) more beneficial for the team and individual players, as it sets and requires the new players to really push standards up.

Taking a team like England however, how many of the older guard would you still want to see back in the side? Perhaps Shaw for Botha? Although at 38 Simon is getting on a bit! Outside of that my only choice would be Thomson at hooker, but that change was enforced through injury. I think we need someone with Thompson's attitude in the pack, and whilst he could do some questionable things in open play (I seem to remember a kick against the Pacific Islands in AI 2010) his scrummaging and competitive nature would be invaluable. A front row of 1. Corbisiero 2. Thompson 3. Cole would be pretty formidable.

I can't think of any others who i'd want to see back, and as such some fairly radical changes were always going to be in the offing. In such a case i'd always favour a 22 year old over someone who's nearly 30 with 0 test caps. Although Lancaster seems to think differently (Dowson, Botha, Waldrom etc...!)

In the case of McCaw or POC, I think when actually confronted with the reality of the choice of leaving them out at present no one would realistically advocate it. Both are incredible players and their experience is utterly invaluable to the team as a whole.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Throught out these boards there seems a growing trend to bring in younger and younger players...(and even myself at times have made this mistake)

Now in situations when the new kids are a real talent and the current incumbant is an average joe...i can understand this.

However sometimes its to replace either a quality old guy for example ah its time to replace Paul O'Connell....even though he's playing blindingly well...just because he's a bit older and they want a young guy in there??!!

Even Ritchie McCaw is now apparently past it...

What is the rush to push out quality experience grizzled internationals for young kids still wet around the ears?

Two things GF.

FIrst one is there is a concern for succession planning unless you get in the situation like NZ last world cup with no cover to 7 or 10.

SEcond one is when the IRE go to NZ and lose 3-0 with 2 big loss then you have to think "Ok, what we doing is not working" and think about how you can change radical things to give yourself more chance next time and for building to the RWC. POC might be playing well but always consider how we can rebalance the combinator and build around a style to win the RWC instead of just turn up!

anotherworldofpain wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Throught out these boards there seems a growing trend to bring in younger and younger players...(and even myself at times have made this mistake)

Now in situations when the new kids are a real talent and the current incumbant is an average joe...i can understand this.

However sometimes its to replace either a quality old guy for example ah its time to replace Paul O'Connell....even though he's playing blindingly well...just because he's a bit older and they want a young guy in there??!!

Even Ritchie McCaw is now apparently past it...

What is the rush to push out quality experience grizzled internationals for young kids still wet around the ears?

Two things GF.

FIrst one is there is a concern for succession planning unless you get in the situation like NZ last world cup with no cover to 7 or 10.

SEcond one is when the IRE go to NZ and lose 3-0 with 2 big loss then you have to think "Ok, what we doing is not working" and think about how you can change radical things to give yourself more chance next time and for building to the RWC. POC might be playing well but always consider how we can rebalance the combinator and build around a style to win the RWC instead of just turn up!

POC didnt play in any of the matches against the AB's.

Shows he shouldnt be disposed of just yet

Ah Chj

I think England were in an exceptional situtation that we had shown loyalty to too many of the old guard who were not performing...so we needed to have a serious clear out.

Now we are hearing calls that manu at 20/21 is not good enough and should be moved on for Joseph...etc. He's 21!! He will develop. AS will Joseph.

But yes m main gripe is the older guys. O'Connell was just an example..i've heard no calls for him to be outed...but the likes of Ryan Jones etc...are great examples. Ex Captain with huge experience and playing fantastically...yet he may not be in as the push is to get a younger guy in.

As mentioned the AB's are probably the best are continuous rolling team...

This makes retirements easier to handle as only maybe one or two a season if that need to be replaced...and experienced guys like Thorne etc are balanced out with youngsters like Whitlocks etc etc

If England drop Tuilagi at this point, they are idiots. The guy has tons of potential, and his distribution/awareness can be worked on.

caoimhincentre wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Throught out these boards there seems a growing trend to bring in younger and younger players...(and even myself at times have made this mistake)

Now in situations when the new kids are a real talent and the current incumbant is an average joe...i can understand this.

However sometimes its to replace either a quality old guy for example ah its time to replace Paul O'Connell....even though he's playing blindingly well...just because he's a bit older and they want a young guy in there??!!

Even Ritchie McCaw is now apparently past it...

What is the rush to push out quality experience grizzled internationals for young kids still wet around the ears?

Two things GF.

FIrst one is there is a concern for succession planning unless you get in the situation like NZ last world cup with no cover to 7 or 10.

SEcond one is when the IRE go to NZ and lose 3-0 with 2 big loss then you have to think "Ok, what we doing is not working" and think about how you can change radical things to give yourself more chance next time and for building to the RWC. POC might be playing well but always consider how we can rebalance the combinator and build around a style to win the RWC instead of just turn up!

POC didnt play in any of the matches against the AB's.

Shows he shouldnt be disposed of just yet

Is just some example. POC play in the past not so well, for example 2005. Maybe he is a good club player, but maybe some star waits somewhere lurking and if we know even at 100% he is not world beater, then try something else! Definition of lunacy is try the same thing and expecting some other result...

anotherworldofpain wrote:

caoimhincentre wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Throught out these boards there seems a growing trend to bring in younger and younger players...(and even myself at times have made this mistake)

Now in situations when the new kids are a real talent and the current incumbant is an average joe...i can understand this.

However sometimes its to replace either a quality old guy for example ah its time to replace Paul O'Connell....even though he's playing blindingly well...just because he's a bit older and they want a young guy in there??!!

Even Ritchie McCaw is now apparently past it...

What is the rush to push out quality experience grizzled internationals for young kids still wet around the ears?

Two things GF.

FIrst one is there is a concern for succession planning unless you get in the situation like NZ last world cup with no cover to 7 or 10.

SEcond one is when the IRE go to NZ and lose 3-0 with 2 big loss then you have to think "Ok, what we doing is not working" and think about how you can change radical things to give yourself more chance next time and for building to the RWC. POC might be playing well but always consider how we can rebalance the combinator and build around a style to win the RWC instead of just turn up!

POC didnt play in any of the matches against the AB's.

Shows he shouldnt be disposed of just yet

Is just some example. POC play in the past not so well, for example 2005. Maybe he is a good club player, but maybe some star waits somewhere lurking and if we know even at 100% he is not world beater, then try something else! Definition of lunacy is try the same thing and expecting some other result...

2005???? you are basing your thoughts on POC on 3 performances 7 years ago????

Sorry, when did he put in the great performance to beat NZ since then? I must have missing it!!!

anotherworldofpain wrote:Sorry, when did he put in the great performance to beat NZ since then? I must have missing it!!!

of course i forgot he has never beaten NZ. He must be average so!!!! fact of the matter there are no younger locks in ireland that have the same influence on a game then POC

anotherworldofpain wrote:Sorry, when did he put in the great performance to beat NZ since then? I must have missing it!!!

PLayers don't win games on their own. If you were to take Dan Carter (or Conrad Smith or anyother worlds best player type) and dropped them into the Kenyan natonal side, they would not beat NZ. So where a player has been in a side that beat NZ or not is irrelevent.

I am not a POC fan however I would say that he has definately been Ireland's best lock (and generally in the top 2 in the NH) for the last few years. Maybe with the coming season he might slip a bit with age.

That's dangerous comparing Ireland to Kenya.

Brad Thorn showed that if you prepare well and know the limitations of your body and how to recover the quickest as possible, you are capable of playing well into your 30s. He might be playing when he's 40, you never know.

Often it depends on the position. Backrow forwards tend to be the most exposed to knocks. Props don't mature as players until they're quite old. Backs tend to have younger players out wide or at fullback because pace is vital and injuries or old age can rob you of pace. Further infield, your chances of playing into your 30s increase.

You want to put out your best squad possible and keep or grow stronger combinations. Experience across the park cannot be compensated fully by youthful exuberance. But you must balance this with a view to the possibility of losing your experienced veterans to injury or loss of form. So you need to ensure that there are alternatives. Unfortunately, due to the way the bench is structured, it's impossible to cover every position and bring through the talent, whether they are young or not. If a player like BOD happens to be your captain then it makes it doubly difficult to give his understudy meaningful time on the field, especially when he is such a talisman player.

You could say Tindall, Easter etc were accomplished players but I think they differ from the likes of POC and McCaw in that there is only ever any point in retaining players if they are better than other options. McCaw and POC might well have 2015 as their end goal for their careers but in order to get there they have to be managed properly. That means resting them and making sure they don't play too many games or are playing under injury clouds. But if their time is up, then you must be ruthless and bring down the axe sharply otherwise the blade might get rusty and you prolong the career unnecessarily of someone who deserves a more fitting ending.

Charlie Faulkner (Pontypool Front Row with Bobby Windsor and Graham Price) was 34 when he got his first Welsh cap and 38 when he got the last.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:Sorry, when did he put in the great performance to beat NZ since then? I must have missing it!!!

PLayers don't win games on their own. If you were to take Dan Carter (or Conrad Smith or anyother worlds best player type) and dropped them into the Kenyan natonal side, they would not beat NZ. So where a player has been in a side that beat NZ or not is irrelevent.

I am not a POC fan however I would say that he has definately been Ireland's best lock (and generally in the top 2 in the NH) for the last few years. Maybe with the coming season he might slip a bit with age.

If you were to take Dan Carter or Conrad Smith and drop them into the Welsh national side, then we could possibly/probably beat Australia and/or South Africa.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Ryan Jones is playing out of his skin at the moment and I would not swap him for all the Lydiate's or Faletua's in the world.

He definitely is, he should be a nailed on starter for Wales.

Sorry but Jones isn't in the same league as Lydiate but I agree that if form and fitness stay as it is now I would pick him at N08 over Faletau (at the moment)

He is currently much better than Lydiate. What does Lydiate do that Jones doesn't? Makes a couple more tackles?

Jones is a much more well rounded player than Lydiate is. He is a great defender, he is a hard worker (who is very good at forcing turnovers actually) and his carrying has improved dramatically. The only thing that Lydiate is better at is tackling, but he offers very little else.

I know what the reply will be though. Unseen work and helps Warburton do what he does etc.

anotherworldofpain wrote:

caoimhincentre wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Throught out these boards there seems a growing trend to bring in younger and younger players...(and even myself at times have made this mistake)

Now in situations when the new kids are a real talent and the current incumbant is an average joe...i can understand this.

However sometimes its to replace either a quality old guy for example ah its time to replace Paul O'Connell....even though he's playing blindingly well...just because he's a bit older and they want a young guy in there??!!

Even Ritchie McCaw is now apparently past it...

What is the rush to push out quality experience grizzled internationals for young kids still wet around the ears?

Two things GF.

FIrst one is there is a concern for succession planning unless you get in the situation like NZ last world cup with no cover to 7 or 10.

SEcond one is when the IRE go to NZ and lose 3-0 with 2 big loss then you have to think "Ok, what we doing is not working" and think about how you can change radical things to give yourself more chance next time and for building to the RWC. POC might be playing well but always consider how we can rebalance the combinator and build around a style to win the RWC instead of just turn up!

POC didnt play in any of the matches against the AB's.

Shows he shouldnt be disposed of just yet

Is just some example. POC play in the past not so well, for example 2005. Maybe he is a good club player, but maybe some star waits somewhere lurking and if we know even at 100% he is not world beater, then try something else! Definition of lunacy is try the same thing and expecting some other result...

You really do write some tripe. POC is more than just a good club player. After the group stages of the World Cup he was being touted as the best lock in the world by the NZ paper of record, the NZ Herald. Of course, this is just one journalists opinion, but his performances at club and international level have more often than not been great. His great performances have been as consistent as your bad posts.

I don't even think AWOP believes what he is saying about POC, otherwise I do wonder if he has actually watched him play before.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:He is currently much better than Lydiate. What does Lydiate do that Jones doesn't? Makes a couple more tackles?

Jones is a much more well rounded player than Lydiate is. He is a great defender, he is a hard worker (who is very good at forcing turnovers actually) and his carrying has improved dramatically. The only thing that Lydiate is better at is tackling, but he offers very little else.

I know what the reply will be though. Unseen work and helps Warburton do what he does etc.

Lydiate carries and creates more turnovers than people give credit for.

I admit to being one of Jones' biggest knockers over the past few seasons but also agree that he has been in great form the past season and like suggested I would have picked him over Faletrau at No8 even if Toby had been fit but for me he is noweher near the class of Lydiate at 6.

I don't think he does, and he certainly isn't very strong at either. There are 6s who are much better at both, in the NH never mind the SH. And there are 6s who are also better at tackling/defending, though he is up there with the best in this category.

Rory,

Its obviously something we won't agree on for me he is currently the best after Ferris.

caoimhincentre wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:Sorry, when did he put in the great performance to beat NZ since then? I must have missing it!!!

of course i forgot he has never beaten NZ. He must be average so!!!! fact of the matter there are no younger locks in ireland that have the same influence on a game then POC

You miss the point on purpose!!! I am make an example only. Means if you can't win with the team you play anyway why not try more radical combinator!? Not throw out all babies and bath water but combinate in a different structure.

I think there's too much emphasis on building for the next world cup; it is a tournament which can last four games and as such is effected by injuries and form which are very difficult to control. If you play your best team every game without considering age, you are more likely to win, meaning you develop a winning culture and happier squad as well as a more progressive team and consequently it will be easier for new players to come in. Obviously the same applies the other way round, I see no point in playing an inferior, older player for the sake of experience such as Graeme Morrison.

Just pick players who are playing well and work well together. Age shouldn't really come into it at international level. Sure, you'll have the odd game on a summer tour when you can take a look at a new option or two in the context of the first team, but I put form and combinations well ahead of youth as criteria.

anotherworldofpain wrote:

caoimhincentre wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:Sorry, when did he put in the great performance to beat NZ since then? I must have missing it!!!

of course i forgot he has never beaten NZ. He must be average so!!!! fact of the matter there are no younger locks in ireland that have the same influence on a game then POC

You miss the point on purpose!!! I am make an example only. Means if you can't win with the team you play anyway why not try more radical combinator!? Not throw out all babies and bath water but combinate in a different structure.

So you seem to think you can throw in a lesser player and that way we will beat the AB's.

Thats fairly radical thinking

No, that's not what I am saying. But if you wanting to be deliberate obtuse then my guest room is free for this.

anotherworldofpain wrote:

No, that's not what I am saying. But if you wanting to be deliberate obtuse then my guest room is free for this.

Well what are you saying so. Using your Irish example you think POC is only a good Club player. who is better than him in Ireland and why exactly would you drop POC for this player. its a fair question to ask because i dont konw why you have suggested it in the first place.

anotherworldofpain wrote:

caoimhincentre wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:Sorry, when did he put in the great performance to beat NZ since then? I must have missing it!!!

of course i forgot he has never beaten NZ. He must be average so!!!! fact of the matter there are no younger locks in ireland that have the same influence on a game then POC

You miss the point on purpose!!! I am make an example only. Means if you can't win with the team you play anyway why not try more radical combinator!? Not throw out all babies and bath water but combinate in a different structure.

I agree totally with AWOPs point, albeit not his example...I think POC is still one of the worlds best and can still possibly make the next RWC if he's managed correctly and avoids too many further injuries. The general point is valid though.

If you stick to what you've always done then you'll get what you've always got.

Good coaches can see the big picture and balance the short term goals of the team with long term building and planning to improve the side.

Sometimes that means sacrificing some victories and performances in the shortterm to build towards bigger goals, sometimes it doesn't.....but standing still is the worst thing a coach can do, just picking the same side week in week out without trying different combinations and building depth and having succession plans. That amounts to gross incompetence and too many coaches are guilty of it.

You need to change a winning side as much as, if not more than, a losing one.

A better example of a missed experimentation opportunity for Ireland in my opinion is James Downey.

Given his form for Northampton over the last few years, and given D'Arcy's sporadic form, I can't believe Ireland haven't at least tried a game plan with a more robust carrying option at 12. I think BOD would have worked well playing off a direct player like Downey, and he could have given the Irish back row carriers, SOB, Ferris and Heaslip, a target and some momentum to work with.

Since D'Arcy's decline for Ireland, and BOD's constant injury issues, the centres have become a bit of a problem area for Ireland. Although by no means a complete player, and one whose talents may seem at odds with the style of rugby Ireland would like to play, Downey can really hammer the ball up the middle and make yards. Sometime a great backline needs a direct player to do the dirty work so others can thrive.

I've been saying this for years, and most Irish fans seemed to take the view previously that the mighty Paddy Wallace was a better option. I remain fairly convinced that Paddy Wallace, an acceptable club player with some nice touches, is not an international 12.